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BTD Forums  /  (N=1).  /  Dr. D'Adamo's blog...Placebo Effect
Posted by: Andrea AWsec, Monday, January 10, 2011, 2:13pm
Posted by: Tom Martens, Monday, January 10, 2011, 3:27pm; Reply: 1
Believe and succeed.
We become what we think about.
If you think in positive terms, you will get positive results.

The placebo effect is not just for medicine.
Posted by: paul clucas, Monday, January 10, 2011, 10:13pm; Reply: 2
Quoted from Dr. D' Adamo
Francis Bacon, the early-modern philosopher and pioneer of the scientific method, once declared that experiments were essential, because they allowed us to “put nature to the question.” But it appears that nature often gives us different answers.
I love it!   ;D   :D
Posted by: san j, Tuesday, January 11, 2011, 2:28am; Reply: 3
There are different protocols. And these may have changed over the decades. The stringency of the FDA may change in different drug classes over time, too.

Many psychiatrists have found that the longitudinal efficacy of the SSRI's isn't as good as the tricyclic antidepressants used since the 1950s and successfully through the 80s. With the "Prozac Revolution", psychiatrists were sold by marketers and via promotional perks on the newer class of drug. Psychopharmacology in particular is a c**p shoot. Doctors freely admit they're writing a prescription and "If that doesn't work, we'll just keep trying. There's absolutely no way of knowing which is best for you." I've gone through this with postpartum clients, and I have friends who have really been struggling with finding stable results with any drugs in that class. One neighbor tells of being prescribed these new "antipsychotics" treated of in this blog, and she, too, is not schizophrenic. Psychiatrists don't seem to care...

It's a very dark side of pharmaceutically-driven medicine these days. And look how it calls Science itself, rather than shoddy science in particular, into question.
Posted by: Lola, Tuesday, January 11, 2011, 2:42am; Reply: 4
it s a science to be so wrong!!! takes practice..... ;)
Posted by: Goldie, Tuesday, January 11, 2011, 1:46pm; Reply: 5
Prozak was tested on adults for three whole month.. then it was sold to kids and everyone else for long term use..

It's like the vaccine an autism scism.. maybe the test was faulty, maybe one needs to be 'after' that doc.. for whatever reason, but a gut connection is there never the less.. maybe the doc did something wrong, but the kids still have metal issues, gut healing issues and if parents do nothing about it then kids remain ill.. if parents try this or that and spend enormous amounts of money trying their kids get better..

I will never be mad at someone trying to do anything.. I did for 22 plus years all over the world for pain, only to find relieve and comfort at in CT of all places.. I came to it by accident and I think much of any progress comes by accidental wide awake thinking some 3 in the morning.  I think we owe much to accidental discoveries and if some go down the wrong way - by wanting to help- without millions in dollars for promotions then I can live with them..

What I can not take is arrogance, knowing it all better, sarcasm and dismissal,, as is so often done with any profitable item.

I took somethin from the neutrals by DrD and had bad reactions.. but by looking just a little further.. talking to his staff and wife,and one of the clinic doctors i came upon the IDEA to separate all ingredients only to find that one works magic for me.. the others do not.. THIS discovery is for ME ALONE, as it applies to MY body , MY intestines and MY issues..  in the end WE all are responsible for our own wellness, our own DISCOVERIES and make the best of what we know, learn and share here with each other..

if that is a look at placebo, so be it,, better that then REMAINING ignorant..

The way I see failure in trying: to do nothing is a crime! to fail is admirable IF you learn from the EXPERIENCE...    
Posted by: christaalyssaA+, Tuesday, January 11, 2011, 3:37pm; Reply: 6
Our minds are truly powerful things. Eating the right foods for you type, I've personally notice, can balance your moods faster and quicker than using drugs. People that I know who are using drugs are still unhappy. Whereas all I had to do was eat some sardines and brown rice. lol

The Nazi's used the Jew's minds against them. In an effort to save bullets they blindfolded them and got a bucket of warm water. Dipping a wooden stick into the water they then ran the piece of wood across the blindfolded jew's necks. They died instantly. They were told they were being lined up to be killed. They thought their necks had been cut and the warm water was their own blood. The mind is a powerful tool. Question everything.

Even when Columbus's ships came sailing in the only one that actually saw them in the distance was the Shaman. Everyone else wasn't open minded enough to actually see them, until the Shaman explained it to the people. And opened their eyes to the possibility of something totally out of their normal sphere of reality. Those were big ships and they had only ever made canoes.
Posted by: shoulderblade, Tuesday, January 11, 2011, 5:11pm; Reply: 7
Quoted from paul clucas
    Quoted from Dr. D' Adamo
    Francis Bacon, the early-modern philosopher and pioneer of the scientific method, once declared that experiments were essential, because they allowed us to “put nature to the question.” But it appears that nature often gives us different answers.

Thing is that Francis Bacon did very little in the way of hands on Science. Perhaps if he had things would have developed a little differently.

Posted by: san j, Tuesday, January 11, 2011, 6:31pm; Reply: 8
Another thought re: the psychopharmacologic agents examined in the blog and study.

These drugs are prescribed for acute conditions, and then, very often, long-term maintenance programs are followed with them. Science can demonstrate the real differences between placebo and the drugs in acute cases of psychotic decompensation rather easily. It becomes a far more delicate matter later, to prove that a patient is being successfully treated over the long term, when you don't know how s/he might have fared without the drug.

There is something to be said for training, for self-training, too. Try to follow my thinking here:
We frequently discuss beginning on an Rx med and then, gradually, weaning oneself from that drug using diet and/or supplements and other modalities. Likewise, a psychiatric patient might be weaning him/herself from a maintenance drug without even knowing it: By adapting to his/her situation in life, by learning from the drug, if you will, a new state of being - maybe calmness or maybe how to use greater energy. Do you follow? At some point it becomes a simple(r) matter to stop the drug therapy; the patient has self-educated and is now independent of that modality. You might say the drug is no longer "effective".

Long-term/maintenance Rx drug therapy raises this kind of issue, especially in psychiatry, I think.
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Tuesday, January 11, 2011, 7:42pm; Reply: 9
IME, first starting on antidepressants is a scary thing. It takes weeks for the benefits to kick in, but the side effects start up immediately. Do you know how scary it is to be depressed for a long time, finally reach out for help, and then feel WORSE before you feel better?

I, for one, don't beleive in the placebo effect for antidepressants. Instead of "I'm taking a pill so I must be better" I always felt "Why do I still feel so miserable? When will I feel better?" 4-6 weeks later, when I'm feeling a bit better, I was never sure it had anything to do with the medication. About the only "placebo effect" it ever had was legitimizing my pain, so that other adults in my life took my condition seriously and actually provided me with practical help.

I'm seriously wondering who is actually benefitting from antidepressants if the drugs themselves have no benefit.
Posted by: san j, Tuesday, January 11, 2011, 8:11pm; Reply: 10
Quoted from ruthiegirl

I, for one, don't beleive in the placebo effect for antidepressants.

I'm seriously wondering who is actually benefitting from antidepressants if the drugs themselves have no benefit.

I'm not sure how, if you don't believe antidepressants are mere placebo, you can find that they have no benefits. Inconsistent. But explain: I'd like to understand.

Many, many millions of American's take antidepressants. The majority of them would insist they have benefits. They, like you, "don't believe in the placebo effect for antidepressants". They undergo a period of waiting, perhaps, for therapeutic effects to begin, and then they find themselves feeling better in clinically significant ways: Perhaps regaining appetite and normalizing sleeping patterns, the end of crying jags, increased optimism and energy.

Oh, I've gone through this with many postpartum women. I have been called upon to help many a woman through precisely the transition you describe, ruthie: The "waiting period". I'd get a referral from a professional working with a woman who has just started with an antidepressant. I go in there and work with her at home, with a clinically depressed postpartum woman, and train her to deal with her new reality, to do the kind of work, to get the kind of education for which the drug will never substitute. I watch her confidence grow as a mother of a newborn. She may still have the sleeping problems. She may have destructive mental habits I need to help her to see and fix. But I wait with her. She's not alone. One client called me a "sherpa".

As for immediate effects of antidepressants: They exist. This depends upon the biochemistry of the particular drug. Some are more anticholinergic and sedative: An anxious patient may undergo improvements with sleep and nerves and irritability within only 24 hours on such a drug. A really good, responsible psychiatrist can choose trial meds with some method and isn't just serving up whatever this week's salesman promised a cool vacation for prescribing.

I see the problem lying with the current system of so-called trials and the politics of bringing a new pharmaceutical to the market. And, once there, how the medical establishment allows itself to be corrupted into participating in the "hawking" process, rather than staunchly advocating for the particular patient in all cases.

Thanks for the hearing. Didn't mean to go on so long. :)

Posted by: AKArtlover, Wednesday, January 12, 2011, 1:00am; Reply: 11
:) Nice blog, as usual.
Posted by: paul clucas, Wednesday, January 12, 2011, 4:38pm; Reply: 12
Quoted from san j
Thanks for the hearing. Didn't mean to go on so long. :)
Thank you for the longness, Sanj.  :)

A B who councils women into getting off the antipsychotic medication?  What a fantastic job - personality fit!

Another possibiliy with the strong medication is that it invokes a epigenetic change.  What if the second generation anti-pschotic drugs triggered an epigenetic response like smoking - but at a slower rate.  The intolerance would be happening during the time when the patient is experiencing the useful effects of the drug.  Then when the genes that are brought into play to eliminate what the body perceives as a toxin.  As the toxin is being eliminated it is being replaced by a psychological need to get back to the initial response coupled with a degradation of that response.  The useful effects decrease and the side-effects increase.
Posted by: san j, Wednesday, January 12, 2011, 5:58pm; Reply: 13
Quoted from paul clucas

A B who councils women into getting off the antipsychotic medication?  What a fantastic job - personality fit!

Some misunderstanding here. My clients have not been prescribed anti-psychotic medication. Antipsychotics are a distinct class of drug. The clients I'm discussing are on antidepressants. Very different pharmacology. I can explain that, if you want, but it's readily researchable on the web or in any Psychiatry or Pharmacology textbook.

In fact, if you want to understand Peter's blog and the New Yorker article, you must see that the two classes are distinct! He's telling about the anti-psychotics being used - contrary to their class, in cases of depression. Do you see it? Those of my clients who have been clinically diagnosed with postpartum depression often choose to take antidepressants. I have never worked with any who are on anti-psychotics.

Another misunderstanding: I don't counsel my clients to get off the medication; I work with them while they wait for the drugs' full effects, while they are using them. I counsel them to follow the plan their doctors have worked out with them. Far be it from me to interfere with that. :)

Posted by: AKArtlover, Wednesday, January 12, 2011, 6:05pm; Reply: 14
That is great san j.

Are these women breastfeeding? :-/
Posted by: san j, Wednesday, January 12, 2011, 6:13pm; Reply: 15
Quoted from AKArtlover
That is great san j.

Are these women breastfeeding? :-/

In some cases, yes.
It's a complex matter.
The depression might have been triggered by a problem that made breastfeeding difficult or impossible. In those cases, the psychiatrist and patient may decide to wean and go with an antidepressant of choice, or to just wean and watch, to see if relieving from the nightmarish attempts at nursing, along with at-home mothering education and postpartum care might ease the depression. That's where I come in.

In other cases, we continue with breastfeeding and work with an antidepressant the psychiatrist is content to use under the circumstances. Almost all drugs of this class are completely contraindicated for nursing mothers, however.

There are other scenarios, too. I've had very, very good outcomes, either way.

Posted by: san j, Wednesday, January 12, 2011, 8:41pm; Reply: 16
Quoted from AKArtlover
Do you find mental commonalities with the women? Is it a defeated mindset?
Of course I'm always looking for a mental angle to assist the physical.

A. I don't understand the question.
B. I'm not sure we're really on-topic here. Let's not hijack. Maybe this is another thread. :-/
Posted by: Easy E, Thursday, January 13, 2011, 12:31pm; Reply: 17
San J i believe that antidepressants are a double edged sword.  They have helped many people, but who is to say that living a more balanced diet and eating correctly would not have helped them even more?  Also these meds have some side effects and can even become addicitve.

Depression is an indicator that something is not right.  I believe real depression is a biological thing that has effects on one's mental health and not vice versa.  I think depression, anxiety, ect. is are all different faces of the same thing, a true biological imbalance.  The causes are probably numerous.

I used to take em for a time, i had a lot of free floating anxiety as an adolescent, and a lot of extra energy.  What helped more than anything was simply playing B-ball with my friends.  Had i known about this diet then, i may have not needed them.  

When i eat wrong now, i can feel mental effects quickly.  I feel agitated and anxious.

Today i don't have nearly any anxiety.  
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Thursday, January 13, 2011, 2:25pm; Reply: 18
Most antidepressants (NOT anti-psychotics) actually are safe for nursing mothers. It really bugs me that too many doctors discount the importance of breastfeeding for both mother and child, and err on the side of "don't take this drug while nursing" rather than erring on the side of "let's not give this baby formula if we don't have to!"

There are known risks to babies who don't get breastmilk. The risks to babies getting traces of Prozac or Zoloft in breastmilk are only potential or theoretical.

Weaning to take medicine can make depression worse, for two reasons. One,   breastfeeding releases "mothering hormones" that relax women, make them feel good, and help them bond to their babies. Trying to care for an infant without that hormonal boost is an extra challenge for a woman already suffering from depression. Two, many women feel like "failures" for not being able to breastfeed as long as they expected to, especially if they're pressured into weaning.
Posted by: san j, Thursday, January 13, 2011, 4:29pm; Reply: 19
In clinically depressed women who have severe problems with and cannot breastfeed, as I described above, the release of the effort after a long trial that has included professional lactation assistance can be therapeutic. I have been part of teams of professionals who have deemed this a good outcome in some cases.

Zoloft, yes, rg, is an SSRI the psychiatrists seem to favor in patients who are capable of breastfeeding.

But I have seen nursing babies under the influence of other anti-depressants. I have worked with women who are taking them through the birth and into the early newborn period when I arrive on the scene. These babies have/develop some distinct problems. If the mother has made a good nursing transition, believe me, she is usually willling to stop taking the antidepressants -- as long as she has enough support at home and with the nursing -- so that her baby's health isn't interfered with by those drugs anymore.

We try to get them there: To a good adjustment to motherhood, one that includes breastfeeding. We almost always succeed! That's gratifying! :D
Posted by: paul clucas, Friday, January 14, 2011, 5:20pm; Reply: 20
SanJ, please pardon my ignorance and misunderstanding.  That is what I am on the board to cure - as well as my curiosity.   :)

Do you think that antidepressants would be used a lot less if the BTD became "endemic"?
Posted by: AKArtlover, Friday, January 14, 2011, 5:36pm; Reply: 21
I'm wondering if these women are low on EPA/DHA and other essentials. I thought I read somewhere that the development of the fetus needs a significant amount of these, perhaps all those have been used up in some women. I know Krill oil made a significant enhancement to my brain chemistry.

Interesting san j.

Blessings on your work.
Posted by: Easy E, Monday, August 8, 2011, 12:34pm; Reply: 22
I think its good to try the simplest approach to heal first, like using eating right and exercising and living right.  What is unfortunate is that by the time most people are being treated, they are in a VERY bad place, to the point where they need immediate action in treatment.  I am a counselor in an inpatient psychiatric hospital.

As treatment progresses, I believe people should wean off of psych meds as they incorporate a healthy lifestyle into their lives.  

The placebo effect can have a negative action also...people can believe they need a certain med and believe they will never function without it.  People can believe and cause their own symptoms as well as mentally producing better health. I took Zoloft for anxiety in later high school and college years.  I thought i needed this med to not have anxiety.

A good doctor will think less meds or no meds are best.

I read a story of a person who died believing they only had a certain amount of time to live, the patient saw info on his chart while the doctor was handling it, thinking his cancer was terminal.  The real fact was that the cancer had gone into remission, and he thought he was dying of cancer, and died soon after. On autopsy, no cancer or symptoms presented.
Posted by: Amazone I., Saturday, August 13, 2011, 6:42am; Reply: 23
as long as we undergo acceptance of being estimated by others and popping into dependancies, we're prone to become *depressed*.. better said sous-pressed ;)
As long we do agree  and make other peoples opinions to ours, we will be *de-sous-and whaterev... but-pressed* far.. ...Paul you see the dilemma... as long as I'm not willing to see what's about my true feelings and work on myselve/self.... I'll be in need of *whatever*....

Louise Hay and Christiane Beerlandt are a fine options.... dito Dr. John Sarno ;) ;D...and alsmost my beloved Don Miguel Ruiz and his beautiful and effectful programs,
ahem yup... and perhaps if you've a little time...c'mon come overhere and we're going to talk togethere ;) ;D...a bit ... :D

Easy E... your description fits wonderfully....(clap)(ok)(smarty) it's all about *loosing and making new agreements*.... take care in what you're going to identify and be aware about your own awareness lays the fact for changes .....(sunny)
Posted by: Goldie, Sunday, August 14, 2011, 2:26am; Reply: 24
I better say up front that I am not addressing real placebo issues.. just meandering.. around the word..

Would I be wrong to say, that placebo is as effective as is proving a drug that did not work?  like turning the tablets the other way??

If I thought all placebo effects where to my detriment or my advantage, then even BTD foods could be misleading.. IT IS only when I try something long enough that I can 'make' proof of anything.  For me BTD works to make me better.. but not more profitable??

The only way I can prove a negative is by trying what I know against what I expect.. often I am surprized.. like: Walnuts are good.. Almonds??? .. but almonds in chocolate is ok???? same with Hazelnuts.. ????   but when they are bitter I spit them out...

Posted by: Kim, Sunday, August 14, 2011, 2:40pm; Reply: 25
Quoted from AKArtlover
I'm wondering if these women are low on EPA/DHA and other essentials. I thought I read somewhere that the development of the fetus needs a significant amount of these, perhaps all those have been used up in some women. I know Krill oil made a significant enhancement to my brain chemistry.

Interesting san j.

Blessings on your work.

May I ask what brand of krill oil do you take and how much do you take each day?
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