Print Topic - Archive

BTD Forums  /  Eat Right 4 Your Type  /  almond milk avoid for O nonnies - why?
Posted by: eva b., Monday, September 17, 2012, 3:29pm
I see in the typebase values that almond milk is an avoid for nonnies, and would like to understand why this is the case.  

If all that happens is that they are soaked in water and pressed, and the oils/juice extracted I just don't understand why they suddenly become an avoid if nothing extra has been added?

I ask, because I am starting to suspect that my original secretor test was wrong and that I am in fact a nonnie.

thanks.
Posted by: Averno, Monday, September 17, 2012, 3:36pm; Reply: 1
Quoted from eva b.
I see in the typebase values that almond milk is an avoid for nonnies, and would like to understand why this is the case.  

If all that happens is that they are soaked in water and pressed, and the oils/juice extracted I just don't understand why they suddenly become an avoid if nothing extra has been added?

I ask, because I am starting to suspect that my original secretor test was wrong and that I am in fact a nonnie.

thanks.


I think this referes to processed, commercial almond milk. Full of bad stuff like carrageenan, xanthan gum, etc.

Just make your own with a little almond butter, water, maybe a little sweetener. Shake it up. Delicious!
Posted by: eva b., Monday, September 17, 2012, 4:35pm; Reply: 2
thanks for the reply Averno, but in the typebase section it describes almond milk simply as soaked an d pressed almonds, with nothing added.  That's what I don't understand?
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Monday, September 17, 2012, 4:50pm; Reply: 3
This is not new Eva, Almond milk has been an aviod fro nonnie type O's for a longtime.

http://www.bing.com/search?cp=1252&FORM=FREESS&q=almond+milk+o+non&q1=site%3Adadamo.com
Posted by: BHealthy, Monday, September 17, 2012, 4:59pm; Reply: 4
Quoted from PCUK-Positive
This is not new Eva, Almond milk has been an aviod fro nonnie type O's for a longtime.

Just because it's 'been that way for a long time' does not explain WHY.

It's much easier to give up something you love if you understand the reason for it.  

Why doesn't Dr. D understand that?  
Posted by: eva b., Monday, September 17, 2012, 5:11pm; Reply: 5
thank you BHealthy (hi PC  ;))

what I don't understand is if almonds are OK raw, why are they not OK when soaked and pressed, that's all.  Not too much to ask, is it?  :'(
Posted by: ABJoe, Monday, September 17, 2012, 5:16pm; Reply: 6
Quoted from eva b.
what I don't understand is if almonds are OK raw, why are they not OK when soaked and pressed, that's all.  Not too much to ask, is it?  :'(

I know this isn't a highly technical explanation, but...
In questions such as this, the answer is always in what is taken out and what is left behind from one form to the next.  Assuming no "contamination", it only leaves that much of the fiber (and associated nutrients) is left behind when changing from raw almonds to almond milk.  There must be something with concentrating the "sweet" of the almond away from the fiber that changes the rating.
Posted by: eva b., Monday, September 17, 2012, 5:41pm; Reply: 7
thank you Joe, that does make some kind of sense.

It pains me greatly, because of my suspicion that I am a nonnie (will have to retest when I can afford it) but it does explain the principle to me.
Posted by: BHealthy, Monday, September 17, 2012, 6:11pm; Reply: 8
Here is my theory (theory, not fact):

I have been researching phytates for the past several weeks, trying to understand how to and whether to eliminate them from my superfoods and diamonds.  The GTD book lists phytates as an avoid for Hunters.

Ramiel Nagel, who wrote Living With Phytic Acid, advises: "In the context of a diet rich in calcium, vitamin D, vitamin A, vitamin C, good fats and lacto-fermented foods, most people will do fine on an estimated 400-800 mg per day. For those suffering from tooth decay, bone loss or mineral deficiencies, total estimated phytate content of 150-400 mg would be advised. For children under age six, pregnant women or those with serious illnesses, it is best to consume a diet as low in phytic acid as possible."

Almonds are very high in phytates.  The suggested serving size in my SWAMI is 1/2 cup per day which would be around 3.5oz or 100 grams.  Almonds have between 1200mg and 1400mg of phytate in 100gms (http://www.thenourishinggourmet.com/2010/09/phytic-acid-in-nuts-seeds-cocoa-and-coconut.html)which is WAY over the recommended daily limit even if that's all you ate.

Since phytates are paritally removed by soaking I'm assuming they're partially water-soluable.

To make one cup of almond milk, the recommended serving size in my SWAMI, you would use 1/2 cup of almonds and 1 c. of water.  If all the phytates in that one cup of almonds ends up in your mylk you'd be drinking 2400mg of phytates!

Since non-secretors are more susceptible to dental caries, and phytate binds to, among other things, the calcium and magnesium needed to maintain strong teeth; and it is associated with low levels of vitamin D which is also needed to build bone material (http://www.livestrong.com/article/431931-side-effects-of-too-much-phytate-intake/) I suspect the reason is the increased level of phytates in almond milk.

I have not been able to get a definitive answer on whether we should be soaking our nuts or not.  I'm hoping the new release of SWAMI will address that question.  Unfortunately, I could find no data on the nutritional values in home-made almond milk and Dr. D seems to use published data to drive his analysis (as opposed to data from experiments he performs himself).
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Monday, September 17, 2012, 6:58pm; Reply: 9
Quoted from BHealthy

Just because it's 'been that way for a long time' does not explain WHY.

It's much easier to give up something you love if you understand the reason for it.  

Why doesn't Dr. D understand that?  


@BHealthy - Perhaps if you go back to my post and click on the link you will find that I left a load of other links there for you to find more detail. deep breaths....
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Monday, September 17, 2012, 6:59pm; Reply: 10
Quoted from eva b.
thank you BHealthy (hi PC  ;))

what I don't understand is if almonds are OK raw, why are they not OK when soaked and pressed, that's all.  Not too much to ask, is it?  :'(


rathio darlinks it's all about ratios ;)

Posted by: meribelle, Monday, September 17, 2012, 8:13pm; Reply: 11
Quoted from Averno


I think this referes to processed, commercial almond milk. Full of bad stuff like carrageenan, xanthan gum, etc.

Just make your own with a little almond butter, water, maybe a little sweetener. Shake it up. Delicious!


I never ever knew you could make your own almond milk from almond butter.  You are so smart!  The trouble is that I would eat all the almond butter before it became milk!
Posted by: cajun, Monday, September 17, 2012, 10:23pm; Reply: 12
Meribelle,
You make me smile...because I would do the same! Almond butter is may favorite! ;D
Almond milk and butter are neutrals on my swami but I consume both several times a week.
Posted by: BHealthy, Monday, September 17, 2012, 11:32pm; Reply: 13
Quoted from PCUK-Positive


@BHealthy - Perhaps if you go back to my post and click on the link you will find that I left a load of other links there for you to find more detail. deep breaths....

I did read all those links, all of them.  And not one of them explained why almond milk is an avoid for O+ non-secretors.  There is lots of commiserating and conjecture, like I did in my post above, but no explanation.

I apologize if it sounded like I was taking my frustration out on a fellow forum member -- I'm not -- you're in the same boat I'm in.  I must say, though, that this is the most frustrating diet I've ever tried to follow.  So many things are vague, contradictory and don't make sense. And, the fact that there are hundreds of posts like this one is proof that I'm not alone!

For the past two weeks I've been slogging my way through all the books and some of the answers are buried in them.  They are actually BETTER than SWAMI in that respect if you have the time to read them all.  I have not yet found any advice on home-made vs store bought.  

Unfortunately, with something as critical as my health I can't rely on conjecture.  If one of the administrators says home-made is OK, I'll use it; if not, I'm not going to risk it.  

Even then, I would question why the TYPEbase describes it as ground-almonds-and-water yet rates it as an avoid.  If the rating is based on the commercial version, shouldn't the description state that?  

Ditto for mayonnaise and ketchup.  If home-made with allowable ingredients is OK, please let us know.  He does it for mustard and bone broth which makes me think the home-made versions of mayo, ketchup, and almond milk are NOT OK.  

Personally, my teeth are bad enough as it is so I'm not going to take the chance on almond milk based on the reasons I gave in my previous post.

If that isn't the reason for the avoid status, then I'd truly like to know.  I love almond milk and since I've given up wheat, dairy and coconut, it's the only creamy thing left!  

  



Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Tuesday, September 18, 2012, 10:16am; Reply: 14
Perhaps you should just bite the bullet and follow the diet.

soak your grains, eat the broth make stuff home made versions but they must be compliant so no vinegar for example, no tomatoes if they are an avoid.

your compliance is related to how ill you are, if you very ill be 100 compliant if your not aim for 80%

if you teeth are really bad, don't use glycerine or fluoride, sounds like you have read the book about tooth decay, if you have gum problems get a food grade hydrogen peroxide and get it to 3 % and spray into you r mouth once a day, spit out after swilling for 5 mins. do oil pulling.

don't eat sugar, don't drink almond milk, etc etc. if you do drink home made almond drink without avoid stuff in it it will be better, but some home made versions have vanilla essence added, that's an avoid, so you can see how difficult it would be to name all the different brands and all the different version of home made ones as well, plus as soon as you print the list it will be out of date. Dr D has to priorities I imagine, some things are more important.

nothing is ever as simple as it looks I'm afraid but keep trying you'll get there.

and no offence taken by the way,It's always difficult to write things with the same charm as when we speak. I just was giving you the option to search perhaps in more detail. I would love to search specifically for what you are looking for but I have other things to do.

when you are dealing with people with serious illnesses they take priority of your time.

we all go through a phase of wanting to figure everything out and test everything, I still do it sometimes but eventually you realise that you just have to do it hence the "nike" advice.
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Tuesday, September 18, 2012, 11:08am; Reply: 15
found these comments which may help

Posted by: Lloyd, Friday, June 25, 2010, 1:20pm; Reply: 5
Almonds are among the best of the available nuts and seeds.

Almond milk is not among the best available beverages.

Also, besides two different comparitive categories, filtering almond milk may or may not remove some of the nutrients. As well, the glycemic index and other factors may come into play with some items that differ between natural and processed states.

The almond butter method or unfiltered milk would be the closest to eating almonds.


Posted by: ruthiegirl, Friday, June 25, 2010, 6:56pm; Reply: 8
The Genotype Diet book doesn't list neutrals; only beneficials and avoids. Dr. D did figure out a list of neutrals for each GT, but didn't print them- so unlisted foods are considered neutral.

I had asked about almonds, almond milk, rice, and rice milk when I first started the GTD, thinking that perhaps there was a typo and the values for rice and almond milk were switched. Dr D himself responded, saying that rice milk was higher in lignans than carbs, while whole rice was the opposite.

Of course you should find a rice milk without "avoids" in it, but rice milk itself is processed in a way that makes it a healthier food for Gatherers than the whole rice it was made from. Meanwhile, the processing for almonds into almond milk has the opposite effect.


hope that helps....
Posted by: eva b., Tuesday, September 18, 2012, 12:48pm; Reply: 16
just to throw more fuel on the fire, I have a question and wonder if anyone has any views...while I have not been drinking almond milk in any form, what I have been doing for several weeks (because of the severe restrictions of being on a totally liquid/puree diet) I have been chewing almonds, to sort of "get the juice" and flavour, and then spitting out the rest, so I don't actually swallow anything other than what comes out of them when mixed with saliva.

I know this makes me sound like a loonhy  :o (not far from the truth) but I so miss the texture of food and the chewing part of eating.

Am I, in effect, getting "almond milk" this way?  if so, I guess I should stop - there is no way I could swallow the fibre of the nut itself.  I thought this trick would help me to get some of the flavour and maybe some of the good ness of the nuts without the risk of the fibre which won't pass my intestines.

Come on PC, and B Healthyk  what's your view  :-/
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Tuesday, September 18, 2012, 1:04pm; Reply: 17
you go ahead and suck a nut darling, if it feels good ;) but don't chew!
Posted by: eva b., Tuesday, September 18, 2012, 1:18pm; Reply: 18
why not chew?
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Tuesday, September 18, 2012, 1:27pm; Reply: 19
Eva - You're so kinky ;)
Posted by: eva b., Tuesday, September 18, 2012, 4:15pm; Reply: 20
Quoted from PCUK-Positive
Eva - You're so kinky ;)


ok, PC, I just got the joke... :o
naughty boy
Posted by: Lola, Tuesday, September 18, 2012, 6:44pm; Reply: 21
no need to spit out eva

have your homemade almond milk by all means
only do not forget to follow frequency values given for nuts

not many a week if you as me......so proceed using common sense :)
Posted by: BHealthy, Tuesday, September 18, 2012, 6:45pm; Reply: 22
Quoted from PCUK-Positive
Perhaps you should just bite the bullet and follow the diet.

Why do you assume that because I ask for clarification on one item that I don't intend to follow the diet?  I intend to follow the diet 100% but I am not being given enough information to do so!

Presumably, the diet was written for people who currently eat the SAD (Standard American Diet) and consume their nuts right out of the bag (whether raw or roasted).  They would be consuming large amounts of phytates.

If those phytates are necessary, then the nuts should not be soaked.  If I do soak them, then I would not be following the diet as it was intended.  Likewise, if I then use those nuts to make almond milk, since everyone seems to think that's OK, I would be compounding the problem.

Unlike most people, if I'm not sure what an item's rating is, I avoid rather than assume it's OK.  If I avoid all almonds for that reason, I am giving up one of my diamonds.  

On the other hand, if it's the phytates in the almond milk that make it an avoid, and soaking the nuts before making the milk myself would eliminate the phytates, than I would be following the diet more closely by consuming one of my diamonds.

My goal is to consume ONLY diamonds and superfoods which limits my choices considerably given the availability in this area and the diet's requirement that nothing be frozen.  I can't afford to give up even one of my superfoods to insure enough variability in my diet.

I currently make everything from scratch -- everything -- and have done so for most of my adult life.  We even 'make' our own water with a reverse osmosis filter and then use it to make our own selzer.  So, I cannot be accused of looking for an easy way out.  

Since I don't buy anything which has more than one ingredient, I would never consider buying manufactured almond milk, even if it was a diamond.

If home-made almond milk has the same rating as almonds, I will use it.  But I need to KNOW it's OK, I cannot just assume.  Why is that so hard to understand?  Why am I not given the information I need to follow the diet as closely as possible?

(Again, I'm not faulting you, @policychecker, for holding back; my problem is with the TYPEbase: why is it so incomplete/contradictory?)
Posted by: BHealthy, Tuesday, September 18, 2012, 6:47pm; Reply: 23
Quoted from eva b.
just to throw more fuel on the fire, I have a question and wonder if anyone has any views...while I have not been drinking almond milk in any form, what I have been doing for several weeks (because of the severe restrictions of being on a totally liquid/puree diet) I have been chewing almonds, to sort of "get the juice" and flavour, and then spitting out the rest, so I don't actually swallow anything other than what comes out of them when mixed with saliva.

I know this makes me sound like a loonhy  :o (not far from the truth) but I so miss the texture of food and the chewing part of eating.

Am I, in effect, getting "almond milk" this way?  if so, I guess I should stop - there is no way I could swallow the fibre of the nut itself.  I thought this trick would help me to get some of the flavour and maybe some of the good ness of the nuts without the risk of the fibre which won't pass my intestines.

Come on PC, and B Healthy  what's your view  :-/

Until we know whether home-made almond milk is OK or not, I would not do this.

If home-made is OK, then you'd be OK, too.

If not, then you're consuming an avoid.
Posted by: Lola, Tuesday, September 18, 2012, 8:10pm; Reply: 24
Quoted Text
If home-made almond milk has the same rating as almonds, I will use it.  But I need to KNOW it's OK


it s ok

only watch personalized frequency values given for nuts
I soak mine the night before blending, in green tea.......I like it that way
Posted by: BHealthy, Tuesday, September 18, 2012, 8:31pm; Reply: 25
Quoted from PCUK-Positive
we all go through a phase of wanting to figure everything out and test everything

It's not a phase with me...it's my whole life.  My MB is INTP.  I need to understand.

Posted by: BHealthy, Tuesday, September 18, 2012, 8:35pm; Reply: 26
Quoted from Lola

it s ok

only watch personalized frequency values given for nuts
I soak mine the night before blending, in green tea.......I like it that way

THANK YOU!!!!

I'll have to try it with green tea, since I can't have coffee.  
Posted by: eva b., Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 8:15am; Reply: 27
Quoted from Lola
no need to spit out eva




thanks for the clarification Lola, but I can't swallow - too much fibre - I have been told to avoid fibre because of the diagnosis of digetive tract paralysis (basically very erratic - if any - peristalsis) so the pulp would just sit in my intestines.

I am on a liquid only (or puree) diet.
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 12:20pm; Reply: 28
I suspect BHealthy that you are not a Hunter but an explorer ;)

Perhaps you should re check you measurements


Quoted from BHealthy

It's not a phase with me...it's my whole life.  My MB is INTP.  I need to understand.



Posted by: ruthiegirl, Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 2:04pm; Reply: 29
Eva- IMO, you have very different dietary needs than the "average person." Many "whole foods" are inappropriate for you until your GI system heals. It's imperative that you get enough nutrients and calories that your body can actually absorb. The problems with almond milk are clearly much more subtle than the problems with other "avoids" such as cow's milk. Do what you need to do in order to get enough calories to heal, but bear in mind that some of the "deeper healing" of this diet won't be within your reach until later, when higher compliance is possible.

BHealthy- I make rice milk to put into my yerba mate, hot cocoa, or "mocha mate" (yerba mate with cocoa powder.) I sometimes consume these drinks unsweetened, and sometimes use molasses. I make my rice milk thicker so it's more like "rice cream" than "rice milk". No, it's not as creamy, rich, or smooth as almond milk or coconut milk, but it fulfills the need for "something creamy in my hot beverage."
Posted by: prunella, Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 6:43pm; Reply: 30
It's all about trade offs, isn't it?  Making the best choices based on the info that we have. Imagine the human species if everyone followed swami!  

OTOH, the abundance of info can be overwhelming as can prioritizing which issues to address first. I feel fortunate that I had eliminated wheat and dairy before I discovered BTD/swami.  Trying to do it all at once would have been anxiety provoking.


I think I really get why BHealthy needs to know the science. I am not as persistent because I get overwhelmed by all the details. But when I make decisions about my foods, I want to know which part of my biology I am impacting.  
Posted by: prunella, Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 6:46pm; Reply: 31
One more thought:

I reran my MB. I am now INFP. Also nonsecretor. I have become an Explorer! No longer Hunting, Exploring the World!
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 6:51pm; Reply: 32
Prunella- were there big changes in your food list with the change in "genotype label" or only subtle differences? Any change at all in recommended portion sizes or frequencies?
Posted by: BHealthy, Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 8:23pm; Reply: 33
Quoted from ruthiegirl
BHealthy- I make rice milk to put into my yerba mate, hot cocoa, or "mocha mate" (yerba mate with cocoa powder.) I sometimes consume these drinks unsweetened, and sometimes use molasses. I make my rice milk thicker so it's more like "rice cream" than "rice milk". No, it's not as creamy, rich, or smooth as almond milk or coconut milk, but it fulfills the need for "something creamy in my hot beverage."

I may try that once I get over my aversion to eating rice.  Eating grains made my weight balloon and, having lost it, I don't want to go back there.  
  
Posted by: BHealthy, Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 8:27pm; Reply: 34
Quoted from prunella
It's all about trade offs, isn't it?  Making the best choices based on the info that we have.  

Yes!  We can make the best choices if we have enough info!
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 9:32pm; Reply: 35
A batch of rice milk uses 2 tablespoons of rice, and lasts me half a week. That comes to about a teaspoonful of rice per day. Unless it leads to cravings, that small amount of rice shouldn't affect your weight.
Posted by: prunella, Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 10:55pm; Reply: 36
Ruthie, you guessed right!
Swami changes were more about frequency and portions than specific foods. Overall, less food, Thank goodness. Less red meat, a bit more carb.  I never managed to eat as much food as the Hunter diet recommended.
These changes are a relief to me and seem much more do-able.

I have lost weight since beginning swami and am now 118 lbs at 5'6", lean and angular.  I exercise daily if possible, but not as vigorously as Hunters seem to need to do.

I still love unsweetened almond milk, now a black dot. Chocolate is no longer highly beneficial. I can live with this!
Posted by: Victoria, Thursday, September 20, 2012, 12:50am; Reply: 37
Quoted from prunella

These changes are a relief to me and seem much more do-able.



It seems that most people feel this way when they get their SWAMI fine-tuned so that they get the proper fit.  It does just fit!
Posted by: prunella, Thursday, September 20, 2012, 1:07am; Reply: 38
I tried to be that Hunter chick, but I'm a way-too-nerdy think-out-of-the-box type.

PS: I ate organic chocolate while I typed that last sentence. It's a mere neutral now, but I can't let it go to waste.
Posted by: AKArtlover, Monday, September 24, 2012, 8:30pm; Reply: 39
If you have a physical aversion to something, you do not necessarily have to include or a lot of. (rice). Aversion can sometimes be more than dislike. Some gluten free people who start eating rice daily develop an IgG allergy to it. Some O's have reported that less grains make them feel better. Variety, balance, quality. New mantra for me. :)
Posted by: Bekki Shining Bearheart, Monday, October 15, 2012, 10:44pm; Reply: 40
ruthiegirl, please post the rice milk recipe??
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Tuesday, October 16, 2012, 12:39pm; Reply: 41
http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/recipedepictor7x.cgi?1308
Posted by: Bekki Shining Bearheart, Wednesday, October 17, 2012, 4:11am; Reply: 42
Thank you!
Posted by: BluesSinger, Tuesday, April 2, 2013, 1:48pm; Reply: 43
Quoted from Averno


Just make your own with a little almond butter, water, maybe a little sweetener. Shake it up. Delicious!


but wouldn't this be a bit grainy when added to say a nice cup of tea?

Quoted from Lola

I soak mine the night before blending, in green tea.......I like it that way


Lola do you strain after blending?  

Also what's the best way to strain and how long will it keep in the fridge?  

I'm forced to do this now since I have avoid carrageenan - as i'm thinking it might be one of the culprits in my joint pain... yes?
Posted by: Victoria, Tuesday, April 2, 2013, 5:55pm; Reply: 44
Some people strain through a cheesecloth and squeeze.  I always just used the finest weave of a stainless steel mesh strainer. This was for almond milk, made from almonds, but you could do this with almond milk made from almond butter also.
Posted by: BluesSinger, Tuesday, April 2, 2013, 7:45pm; Reply: 45
Quoted from Victoria
Some people strain through a cheesecloth and squeeze.  I always just used the finest weave of a stainless steel mesh strainer. This was for almond milk, made from almonds, but you could do this with almond milk made from almond butter also.


thank you.. i have one of those strainers.  I'm going to try it tomorrow after soaking the almonds all night.  
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, April 4, 2013, 7:05am; Reply: 46
I do not strain.....
Posted by: BluesSinger, Thursday, April 4, 2013, 2:32pm; Reply: 47
Quoted from Lola
I do not strain.....


chewy milk!!! LOL
Print page generated: Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 8:13pm