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Posted by: ruthiegirl, Wednesday, June 6, 2012, 1:35pm
Yesterday my 16yo daughter asked me for advice on how much she should be eating per day. This was sparked by the "nutrition" unit in her health class at school, which is chock full of "one size fits all" information and she's not sure how much of it is BS and how much of it is valid.

She's barely 4'11" tall and over 145 pounds. She won't tell me her exact weight, but I know she's well over 141 (the minimum for blood donation at her height and age) and I can see from looking at her that she's carrying  quite a bit of extra fat. She's short but has a rather stocky and muscular build, so I know that a "healthy for her" BMI is going to be higher than the official reccomendations, but I'm not sure how much higher. She's O negative, unknown secretor status, and either a Gatherer or an Explorer. There is no way she's a Hunter!

So approxiomately how many servings should she be getting per day/week of animal protien, vegetables, fruit, grains, nuts, etc? How much exercise should she be getting?
Posted by: Lola, Wednesday, June 6, 2012, 3:01pm; Reply: 1
amazingly, the more nurtured you are at a cellular level, the less amount of food you need, and the less cravings

she should eat all she needs....the body will auto regulate in time

ask her not to overdo the frequency values given for carbs, sweeteners and fruit

she needs her protein, good fats, VEGGIES, some legumes and the few carb servings she gets being a negative
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Wednesday, June 6, 2012, 5:01pm; Reply: 2
Ok, but what are the frequency values for her right now? She frequently "forgets to eat" and then finds herself with low  blood sugar: cranky, lethargic, and trouble focusing. She'll sit down for a proper meal and get full very quickly after eating some meat and/or a sweet potato (and sometimes broccolli or green beans too, if I manage to cook them "just right" that day.)

My oldest has her SWAMI and knows exactly how much of each food group she's "supposed to eat" each day. When she complains of being hungry after dinner, I ask her what she ate that day and which food groups she's missing- that's usually enough for her to make a smoothie or a salad instead of pizza toast (unless she actually didn't have enough grains that day, which is much more rare.)

SWAMI for my younger daughter isn't in the budget right now, although I'd love to get it for her now that she's 16 and basically done growing. That's why I'd like some help figuring out which serving sizes in the range are most likely to apply to her.
Posted by: Victoria, Wednesday, June 6, 2012, 6:46pm; Reply: 3
Have you done the Genotype measurements for your daughter?
Posted by: Captain_Janeway, Wednesday, June 6, 2012, 9:48pm; Reply: 4
Does she eat breakfast? Eating a sufficient breakfast chocked full of protein rich foods will help stabilize her blood sugar levels and help her to lose weight rather effortlessly. Also does she get enough sleep for her age? Even teenagers who are mostly done with the pubertal growth spurt still need more sleep than adults. Does she get enough exercise?

Eating breakfast, and getting enough sleep and exercise should help to balance her hormonal cycles. Her frequency values can be affected by how much exercise and or other stressors in her life at the moment. Less active kids and youth need to eat fewer calories in order to maintain or lose weight. So it may be a matter of trial and error for her.
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Wednesday, June 6, 2012, 11:29pm; Reply: 5
We've been struggling with her sleep cycles and general health for years. She has a  very hard time falling asleep early, even when she hasn't gotten enough sleep the day before.

The main problem is that her biological clock is completely at odds with the public high school's schedule. She's chronically sleep deprived because she's waking up and going to school before she's ready to wake up. She never eats breakfast because she's simply not hungry that early. She just gets nauseated if she tries.

Nor does she have a lunch period at school- she's taking more electives instead. She had a lunch period in 9th grade, but it was 7th period, by which time she could never eat. If she snacked in earlier classes, she had no appetite by then. If she didn't, she would be "too hungry to eat" and still couldn't eat a proper meal at that time of day.

She's been in this school for 2 years and hasn't adjusted to eating before school. In 8th grade, when school started an hour later, she had no problems eating a good breakfast before school.

So here's her daily routine: wake up and have some juice (straight apple juice or diluted grape juice) and very rarely a slice of quiche. Snack on trail mix or homemade cookies and drink water during school. Come home and have a bowl or two of veggie/bean soup (spinach, onions, carrots, black or great northern beans, sometimes squash or rutabega, varying spices.)

For dinner I usually make a meat, sweet potatoes, rice, and an orange veggie. She usually eats the meat and the orange veggie; never the rice and only sometimes the green veggie. Wednesday nights are pizza nights, so today she had another  bowl of soup while I was cooking and then a small (6") homemade pizza (spelt flour crust, tomato sauce, mozzarella cheese.)

She often has a snack after dinner- quiche, pizza toast (spelt bread with tomato sauce and mozzarella cheese), an apple or two, a handful of chocolate chips, or more soup.

Her exercise has been very sporadic. In the past week she's been more active, walking home 1.5 miles from school one day, but up until very recently she hasn't been exercising nearly enough.
Posted by: jeanb, Thursday, June 7, 2012, 2:54am; Reply: 6
A 4'11" 16 year old girl needs a lot more exercise to be able to eat and stay slim.  My mom was 4'10" and ate about 3/4" of what I ate at 5'2".  Are your 2 daughters similar in shape?  Why doesn't daughter number 2 follow 1's swami if they are similar?

I think she needs to cut out the juice in the am and sub a hard boiled egg for the juice.  If she wants to lose fat, she will need to retrain her body to eat earlier in the day rather than later. I don't buy juice anymore as my kids would drink juice rather than eat food.  

I think all teenagers need sweat inducing, lung busting exercise every day.  My 16 year old boy takes the dog for a 30 minute run every day and then does dry land training 3 times per week in the summer.  In addition, he runs about 1.2 km to and from the bus (about 2.4 km) every school day.  He will be working in a factory this summer, lifting heavy parts, so he will get in about 8 hours of exercise per day.

Winter is dog running daily, dryland training on his own, 2 nights at the ski hill, 1 weekend day at the ski hill, about 12-15 hours of activity every week.  

My 21 year old now has a desk job and has taken up running, 5 km per day, plus 1 hour in the gym 3 x per week. He is short, only about 5'7" so he needs to move to keep his metabolism going.  
Posted by: Possum, Thursday, June 7, 2012, 3:35am; Reply: 7
I was questioning the juice too tbh... Not being critical, but she doesn't seem to eat a whole lot of plain protein without carbs & I am wondering if that is what is stalling her weight loss? Plus possibly the lack of exercise?!

The juice first thing might well be causing her body to store the sugars as fat, especially in the absence of food... Could she have some ground chia seeds in juice (or water) to at least get some fibre & protein in to her as well?!

What's in the trail mix - more (dried) fruit? Might be better to have a few cubes of cheese, or come chia seeds with the nuts for a mid morning snack, instead of more sugar which will just stimulate the pancreas again...

Some more good fats may also help her to not want to keep snacking on carbs after dinner?!
Posted by: Conor, Thursday, June 7, 2012, 4:20am; Reply: 8
Hi ruthiegirl, would your daughter drink 'chia fresca' in the morning?

It's made with about twelve ounces of cold water, the juice of one lemon (approx. three tablespoons or more of juice), two teaspoons of compliant sweetener (or its equivalent if using stevia) and two to three teaspoons of raw chia seed. You make the lemonade first and then stir in the chia seeds. Let the chia seeds soak in the lemonade for at least ten minutes. During this time, stir the drink occasionally. The chia seeds will become gelatinous and disperse throughout the drink. And, if I have some fresh mint on hand, I'll bruise a leaf and add it to the chia fresca right before I drink it. It's a refreshing summertime drink in Mexico and Texas. In addition to the protein and omega 3s inherent in the chia seed, the fresh lemon juice might help promote her hunger in the mornings because it stimulates digestive and liver functions, and assists bowel motility.
Posted by: Possum, Thursday, June 7, 2012, 4:53am; Reply: 9
Good suggestion Conor... Nothing like chia seeds eh? I always keep some in the car too, for those mornings when I've had to take DH to work before I am awake enough to make food... Would be a great standby for Ruthie's daughter imo

Ruthie - I understand her not wanting to eat first thing - I am not a big brekky person either, before about 9-9.30am... That's after years of being forced to get up early enough to make & eat porridge as well as a cooked breakfast (all before walking half hour to school) Often we had baked beans or eggs etc all on heavy wholemeal toast... It was enough to get time to make & eat it, let alone the griping pain & toilet trip that always followed those dashed beans ;)

It just occurred to me too, we eat our evening meal latish & then usually a snack for supper, so I am never hungry first thing... Could it be that the after dinner food is keeping your daughter too full for breakfast, especially if her system is like mine & stays full/bloated after bean soup for dinner?
Posted by: Goldie, Thursday, June 7, 2012, 5:17am; Reply: 10
So this kid is like many teenagers.. sleep all day up at night.. eat sweets when eating and generally just a teenager.. so that is the bad news..

The great news is that she is asking the questions!!!  

I would use her sisters Swami, as it might serve to enjoy each others food questions.. if competition would make her unhappy, then get any book and follow it with a little more food to make up the calories not to be hungry..

Her age allows her 2200- without strenuous exercise or 3000 calories if she learns to run a mile or swims on hour.  

As for habits forming and food needs, here is what I did with one kid who had weight issues.  

Breakfast 1 -2 eggs - in your daughters case, maybe cut it in 1/4's and packed with nuts or a little cheese.
or : slices of beef/turkey from the day before.

For a snack a whole fruit so she gets enough liquids.. a juice yes, but apple is not as compliant as some other fruits might be.. maybe dilute as she ages to add more water, unless she drinks water on her own..

Other snacks might work if she could eat home made thick sliced sweet potato chips dried or oven baked, add some spices if she likes.. or some Parmesan sprinkles.  

Can she eat a salad in school at her desk during lunch?  mixed any vegetables with walnuts or watermelon seeds and the like.

Maybe canned peas? green beans or any other compliant vegetables.

or compliant beans and rice mix to creates a protein balance and is easy to swallow, easy to take with her.

or a salad with meat slices and fresh zucchini. as much as she will eat --

Thick shakes?  from fruit juices to be shaken in a thermos to keep cool?

Fruit and other nuts for on the way home.    

At home finally, as much meat, turkey or fish as she wishes, and squashes, like spaghetti squash with tomato sauce and some Parmesan, or red pepper flakes. Carrot slices or any other foods she likes.  Cold or warm with pineapples, or another canned or fresh fruit, glazed for fun, or cold in a smoothie or most anything for fun. Stuffed mushrooms with pizza stuff on them..

Before sleep at night, banana slices, frozen or fresh berries, some compliant pudding, or omelet with plain Trehalose sugar or salt, Ezekiel bread toasted with some jam and butter or olive oil?

Think that might work??    

or what do you think is wrong with it? what would she object to? or improve on this list?

Many teens don't eat breakfast.  but later in the morning they need protein..

does she drink coffee yet?  likes milk? needs to get off it?
Posted by: 19000 (Guest), Thursday, June 7, 2012, 12:42pm; Reply: 11
Perhaps she could sip some lemon water right when she wakes up to prepare her stomach for food. Once she's ready (not sure how long it takes her) perhaps she could try eating a very light breakfast (like a piece of beneficial fruit) so she won't get nauseous...unless that makes her nauseous too.  I guess she'll have to experiment in that area.

She might be getting too much sugar from the juice as well if it isn't freshly made juice (added sugar from the store). Sounds like she's getting too much sugar else where as others have pointed out (chocolate chips, cookies etc.). I know that when I used to eat sugar all the time, I would get low blood sugar often (if I did not eat quickly enough).  Now that I've cut sugar out completely (only eat stevia), I never get low blood sugar. So I would limit the sugar intake. She can still have it, just in smaller amounts.

Maybe she can try cutting out the dairy too as it's my understanding that Os don't do well with too much of it.  Might make her feel better too. Find a good replacement meal/snack instead of pizza or she can make a pizza snack without cheese and use something else in it's place. Just some ideas.

As for the amounts she should eat - as you pointed out - a lot of the info in the book is probably too much one size fits all info.  Everyone obviously has different body types.  I think it's best to listen to your body and so long as she's feeding herself nutritious meals throughout the day which keep her satiated then she'll be fine. Just gotta plan out the meals and experiment with some stuff. Just my two cents.
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Thursday, June 7, 2012, 1:21pm; Reply: 12
Connor- she wouldn't have time for a chia fresca in the mornings. She gets up with barely enough time to get dressed, grab some juice, and make the school bus. There's no time to make things that need to soak before consumption. Could that be made the night before?

Goldie- she can't eat a salad or canned veggies or anything "messy" at school- only things she can eat with one hand while taking notes with the other.

I haven't used my juicer in years; the juices she drinks are 100% juice bought at the store. She'll often have an ounce or two of grape juice in a large cup of water. When she reaches for the apple juice (that she drinks straight) it's because her blood sugar is too low and she feels she needs the calories and she doens't have the time or the stomach for heavier food.

The cookies she eats at school are made from honey (not refined sugar) and are chock full of things like flax meal and chopped nuts. I've considered making them with protien powder, but that stuff's expensive. When she takes trail mix, it's a mixture of dried fruit (raisins, unsweetened apples, sometimes cranberries), walnuts, pecans, and chocolate chips. She won't eat the nuts without the chocolate.

rAw Warrior- I hear you on the dairy but her diet is limited enough as it is, and she needs the protein. Her dairy consumption at home literally consists of mozzarella cheese, goat cheese (baked into quiches) and butter. She doesn't like cold meats so I like to keep the cheese on hand.
Posted by: Conor, Thursday, June 7, 2012, 7:22pm; Reply: 13
Quoted from ruthiegirl
she wouldn't have time for a chia fresca in the mornings. She gets up with barely enough time to get dressed, grab some juice, and make the school bus. There's no time to make things that need to soak before consumption. Could that be made the night before?

Sure, actually it would even do well with an overnight soak. There's a new-ish chia drink product in the HFS called Mamma Chia ( that is a line of juice-based chia drinks similar in concept to chia fresca. Contrary to what some say, the chia seed doesn't need to be ground to benefit from its nutrients.

Too, I noticed that GT Dave started adding chia seed to three different flavors of his kombucha tea line. I tried the grape out of curiosity. It was pretty decent.
Posted by: grey rabbit, Thursday, June 7, 2012, 8:21pm; Reply: 14
I don't like the whole "calories in calories out equation" but this is ridiculous
Quoted Text
Her age allows her 2200- without strenuous exercise or 3000 calories if she learns to run a mile or swims on hour.  
at her age and weight she needs about 1500 kcals per day and running for 30 minutes would only burn an additional 250 kcals. And that would be to maintain her weight, not lose any.

I agree with cutting out the sugar first thing in the am if she is trying to lose weight. I like the idea of the chia drink - has more nutrients than just the juice, and could serve to make her feel full.
The general rule of thumb for protein is 0.8g/kg body weight up to double that for athletes. So if she is not very active, then she needs about 53g of protein (minimum) per day. Protein accounts for 4kcals/gram, so at least 212 of her kcals from protein.

For disease prevention, 55 to 60% of the diet should be carbohydrates with only 5 to 10% of those coming from simple CHO (here is your juice and any other sugar). CHO = 4 kcals/gram

Around 30% of kcals from fats per day, fats have 9kcals/gram.

This is the conventional wisdom.

Take a look at the O diet and or GTD and go from there, using these numbers as a flexible guideline.

If she wants to lose weight she needs to set specific, measurable, accountable, and realistic goals with a time frame. She should not lose more than 1 to 2 lbs. per week. She should be working into an exercise plan, starting with walking, 30min/day, and maybe eventually running if she likes that. She should be doing some weight training too, at least three times a week. There are many things she can do at home without special equipment. My daughter found this site that looks pretty good.
She will probably have more energy if she can break the cycle she is in right now. Good luck!
Posted by: Conor, Thursday, June 7, 2012, 8:49pm; Reply: 15
Quoted from grey rabbit
My daughter found this site that looks pretty good.

That's pretty cool (and like that it has smartphone app). Thanks for sharing the link. (:
Posted by: Goldie, Thursday, June 7, 2012, 11:03pm; Reply: 16
ruthiegirl.... could your daughter follow her sisters Swami??

Is she much different in body build?   BUT even as such she is a teenager, and so the differences can not be that different.. WE here are never close to SAD.. so no matter what she would be better of..

At that age food and self determination is totally connected to stress, or happiness.  What would she wish to eat and when? doe she have any ideas what she thinks is good for her?  

As a teen I know that self determination is more important that eating right.  Does she get a chance to cook one meal a week .. or can help?  I would not think that eating any less is going to work..

I think since she is over weight, she is most likely Gatherer and so prone to sugar mood fluctuations that create fears of being 'hungry' and then feel miserable.. Do you have a bowl of candy on the table for her to grab when she needs a pick me up.  Put fruit next to it or in the fridge.. I would rather she eat the apple then drinking it.. better yet, if she could make carrot juice..

I have on idea that you have some ideas on what you would like to hear from us here.. can you elaborate on that?  I or others might be able to focus in a little better.. I know that you have done all you can with your children and so any advise we give is sort of redundant..

question:  has your daughter or you ever written down her calories, protein value and glycemic values?  it might point in certain directions.. The heavy stress of school and no time for lunch is difficult.  Yet even a steak can be finger food. .. almost any food can be finger food.  I like zucchini or apple slices, sweet potato slices.rice balls covered in some cheese can be fine to munch on.. root vegetable slices, some with spices others with sugar..

I NEEDED sugar to make it through life.   Sugar alone was not my enemy.. emotions, fear of failure, fear of not fitting, was more the issue, but until I was 20 - I never gained weight, I was lucky.  I eat sweet stuff but not on top of food, but IN combo..    

one other thing, some people eat all the pulp of food, while others just make juices.. what does she do?

what are her favorite foods?   sorry to always have so many questions..
Posted by: geminisue, Friday, June 8, 2012, 1:33am; Reply: 17
Ruthie- does your daughter like meringue cookies=egg whites\beaten stiff, sweetener, cocoa, mix, and baked at a very low temperature til dry. Then stores in zip lock bag or sealed container.  Something on the go and high protein, and of course chocolate helps lift the mood.  There might be cream of tartar in it too.
I'm sure you can fine a recipes easily.
Posted by: jeanb, Friday, June 8, 2012, 2:21am; Reply: 18
As a short gatherer, sugar in the form of honey, juice, and any type of grain can instantly pack on pounds. Every since I was a teenager, I knew my body well enough to stay away from carbs.  

I feel best with a heavier protein, fat, veggies diet and little or no fruit, grains, milk products and sugar.  

Perhaps your daughter should experiment with less carbs and more vegetables, protein and fats and see if that makes a difference.  

I can't even begin to emphasize how exercise helps me lose/maintain weight and keep me on a routine sleep schedule.  Because of the issues with my mother and her decline into Alzheimer's, my exercise has been sporadic, but I do golf every weekend (no cart).  I sleep soundly on the weekends and end up being a night owl on the weekdays when I only get about 20-30 minutes of exercise.
Posted by: Victoria, Friday, June 8, 2012, 4:46am; Reply: 19
Quoted from Goldie

I think since she is over weight, she is most likely Gatherer and so prone to sugar mood fluctuations that create fears of being 'hungry' and then feel miserable.. Do you have a bowl of candy on the table for her to grab when she needs a pick me up.  Put fruit next to it or in the fridge..

I NEEDED sugar to make it through life.   Sugar alone was not my enemy.. emotions, fear of failure, fear of not fitting, was more the issue, but until I was 20 - I never gained weight, I was lucky.  I eat sweet stuff but not on top of food, but IN combo..    

I can't imagine a bowl of candy on the table being in any way good for a teenaged girl who is struggling with her weight already.
Diabetes is a risk for Gatherers anyway - why tip the scales in that way?

Posted by: Possum, Friday, June 8, 2012, 4:53am; Reply: 20
I agree ::) ;)
Posted by: Goldie, Friday, June 8, 2012, 6:48am; Reply: 21
The hard candy is not something kids reach for when it is there all the time.. I have tested that with kids that came from the most dysfunctional life style.. within 10 days the fruit became more important, so I have no fear.  As a teen having choices is much more about a lifetime of self determination, emotionally important to make better choices.

Sugar is not what puts on the pounds.  It's the amount of avoids, or the (self induced) stress, or frustration coming from outside dictates that add the weight.

Yet the other thing that would concern me more.. the hypo glycemia she experiences when she forgets to eat. She is a late stay up and late wake up person.  If she eats like normal people and stops eating lets say 8 -9 pm - then she will essentially have to many hours until she eats again the next day, ergo get weak.  I have a friend who regularly gets up late- and goes to bed even later, but she eats her dinner at 10 pm  and still a snack later before she finally goes to sleep.

Maybe having long lasting food late in the evening (to late for morning people) would not be wrong for her.  She may need that time/frame to absorb the nourishments needed to have a good morning - and not starve her body in the morning when getting up for her, is most difficult and most taxing on her body.

Instead of fruit juice could she maybe make carrot juice with some celery or some oily things like nuts or avocado.  

Maybe adding chromium foods might help balance her sugar fluctuations.  Where do you find chromium?

You can find small quantities of chromium in most foods. However, the foods where you can find the highest concentrations are:

2.Brewer’s yeast
3.Calves’ liver
5.Dairy products
7.Fish and seafood, oysters
8.Potatoes with skin
9.Whole grain products
Dark chocolate is high in chromiumAnd now, the good news. If you have read my article “Are Strawberries Dipped in Chocolate Good for Diabetics?” you know by now that chocolate made with a high proportion of cocoa is good for people with diabetes. Well, studies have also found that dark chocolate is quite high in chromium. In fact, the amount of chromium in dark chocolate is 10 times higher than the one found in whole grains.

1.Assists insulin in helping the cells take glucose
2.Improves the ability of the cell receptors to respond to insulin.
3.Improves the transports of glucose into the body cells
Studies conducted at the University of Loma Vista, United States, show that every time we eat products made with refined sugar, refined flour, or white rice, we lose more chromium than we ingest, causing a gradual loss of this mineral in our body.

Was she ever tested for a) diabetes and b) for her insulin levels?  It might be that the insulin levels are more important than blood glucose.       

I am coming to the conclusion that maybe I eat chocolate less to stay energized but rather for the chromium value?  Could it be that my body knew what it needs, but I never knew?  Chocolate then might have another value - with its fat content.(from coco butter fat) - it digests slower..add a few nuts and it may become a super food??   or at least a food a diabetic ll, (many decades later) reaches for, starting in youth, because it helps to regulate the INSULIN levels?    
Even if this where wrong by conventional standard or SAD, it is interesting to consider.

just for fun.. cocoa and Maca...

from 2001:
Posted by: amyflood, Friday, June 8, 2012, 12:57pm; Reply: 22
i wouldn't rule out the Hunter genotype. I am a stocky 5 footer and type as a hunter. i was sure it was wrong but i've repeated it multiple times. I would also cut the juice in the morning. maybe cut any caffeine too if there is any to cut. I had a lot of anxiety/sleep issues as a kid too and i drank a lot of diet soda.
Posted by: grey rabbit, Friday, June 8, 2012, 1:44pm; Reply: 23
Quoted from jeanb
Perhaps your daughter should experiment with less carbs and more vegetables, protein and fats and see if that makes a difference.  

Vegetables are carbs!!!!!!!! They are complex carbs and most people don't think about them that way. And I agree about cutting out sugar, sorry Goldie, sugar most certainly does put on the pounds.
Posted by: 19000 (Guest), Friday, June 8, 2012, 2:32pm; Reply: 24
Does she like fish?  Maybe some canned tuna or salmon would be a good alternative for protein as well unless she doesn't like it (since it's cold).

Unfortunately, honey still contains a lot of sugar. Raw honey has a lot of health benefits but if it's not raw honey - sugar is sugar and it may be playing a role in her getting low blood sugar a lot.  It's good that she dilutes the juice with some water though.  That's a good idea.

You also say that she won't eat the nuts without the chocolate chips. Maybe there's something else she can find that she likes just as much that has less sugar.  I know this is frustrating seeing as how limited her diet already is but you just have to be creative and experiment with different things until you find something that works (I realize that isn't always easy). I don't know what she likes otherwise I'd have an easier time coming up with ideas.
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Friday, June 8, 2012, 3:03pm; Reply: 25
She's not built at all like her sister. DD1 is short and slender with  boobs. DD2 is super-short and muscular and has a larger bone structure than her sister. Her "ideal weight" is likely higher than DD1's, even though she's about 3 inches shorter.

I suggested that she follow her sister's SWAMI, at least for portion sizes, and her response was "I don't do well on that much fruit!" It would make as much sense for her to follow my SWAMI- it's still not individualized for her personally.

Geminisue: we've made meringue cookies in the past. They're dessert, not a high-protien snack. Our typical recipe uses about 2 egg whites to about a cup of sugar.

Goldie- I don't keep hard candy in the house and I'm not about to start now. The kind I'm willing to let my kids eat (without artificial colors or HFCS) isn't cheap. Nor would she self-regulate. I've had "all natural" candy in the house before, with the result that she'd keep grabbing candy all day long instead of eating real food. DS does the same thing. I now buy lollipops one at a time at the HFS for DS after I give him a haircut, and I'm now offering him an extra lollipop per month if he does all his homework. I'm not willing to keep sugary foods in the house all the time- BTDT and it didn't work.

The main problem is that she snacks all day, instead of eating proper meals. It's hard to know exactly how much of what she's eating. Sometimes it looks like her diet is great- she eats the veggie soups that are chock full of veggies and spices, dinner is meat and veggies and she won't even touch the rice, with fresh fruit for snacks, but then other times it looks like she's filling up on juice and chocolate chips and not getting nearly enough protein or veggies.

There's less than a week of school left, so I'm not overly worried about before-school breakfasts right now. I'm gathering ideas for next year, but over the summer she'll have time to wake up on her own schedule and then eat real food.
Posted by: Goldie, Friday, June 8, 2012, 4:29pm; Reply: 26
Quoted Text
Vegetables are carbs!!!!!!!! They are complex carbs and most people don't think about them that way. And I agree about cutting out sugar, sorry Goldie, sugar most certainly does put on the pounds.

so does a pound of steak..  

No change = no change..  

restrictions : the brain eventually will create cravings .. for a reason.. as a result of the body being in severe stress mode already.  

I am more concerned about her craving things some times.. and getting weak.. they go hand in hand for Hypoglycemia..

more than 3 or so fruits for that can become on issue. sliced frozen goes a longer way..

Vegetables make for differences as they are full of some vitamins and full of flavor and full of some minerals.. Many foods can be made as finger foods.. or platforms for other things, and they nourish / satiate for much longer. .  

Many are so sweet that they can substitute for sugar..  and be made ahead of eating time..

whole bake in toaster oven  them for 60 minutes on 425 .. yum with meats... mash it and it makes a thick sauce that satisfies.

sliced thick steam for a few minutes in table spoon of water, make pizza platforms..

sliced thin fried in little oil in minutes.. snacks fresh and salt free. Sprinkle plain trehalose for sweetening.

Maybe summer will make her have some time to cook fun foods, and come here and learn more.  ;D

Asparagus with a little oil on a grill or in a grill pan.. Asparagus Peas
Bamboo Shoot
Bok Choy, Pak Choi
Celery ◊ stuffed with some soft cheese
Chicory with salad dressing dippChinese Kale, Kai-lan

Collard Greens ◊
Dandelion Greens ◊
Escarole ◊
Fennel love it in sclices fresh or cdooked

Fenugreek ◊
Fiddlehead Fern ◊
Ginger sprinkeled on all sort of things.
Horseradish as dip or alone

Jerusalem Artichoke
Lettuce, Green Leaf, Iceberg
Mamey Sapote, Mammy Apple
Mushrooms, Black Trumpet
Mushrooms, Enoki
Mushrooms, Maitake
Mushrooms, Oyster
Mushrooms, Portobella
Mustard Greens
Okra ◊
Onion, all types ◊
Peppers, Bell stuffed wit rice or yams.. with onionsPeppers, Chili, Jalapeno ◊
Pumpkin ◊ in soup or slices backed.. hard to cut
Rutabaga ◊ super delish fried

Sea Cucumber ◊
Sea Vegetables, Irish Moss
Sea Vegetables, Kelp, Kombu, Nori, Bladderwrack ◊
Sea Vegetables, Spirulina ◊
Sea Vegetables, Wakame
Spinach ◊
Swiss Chard
Turnip Greens That is not turnips???  
Water Chestnut, Matai sweet with grated nuts sprinkled over it
Yam delish in any form.. spiced or not.. as chips or bases for pizza
Zucchini .. all these make good liquid foods too

Posted by: jeanb, Saturday, June 9, 2012, 1:20am; Reply: 27
Hey Grey Rabbit, I find if my total carb count is above 40 grams per day, I will pack on the pounds really fast, that includes things like sweet potatoes, yams, bananas and plums.  If I control my carbs including those vegetables and fruits, I will maintain and lose weight if required.  

Again, all of us are different...
Posted by: Victoria, Saturday, June 9, 2012, 1:29am; Reply: 28
Quoted from jeanb
Hey Grey Rabbit, I find if my total carb count is above 40 grams per day, I will pack on the pounds really fast, that includes things like sweet potatoes, yams, bananas and plums.  If I control my carbs including those vegetables and fruits, I will maintain and lose weight if required.  

jeanb, I think that this is actually a common situation that many (if not most) Gatherers find themselves in.
Posted by: grey rabbit, Saturday, June 9, 2012, 1:43am; Reply: 29
Quoted from jeanb
Hey Grey Rabbit, I find if my total carb count is above 40 grams per day, I will pack on the pounds really fast, that includes things like sweet potatoes, yams, bananas and plums.  If I control my carbs including those vegetables and fruits, I will maintain and lose weight if required.  

Again, all of us are different...

I totally agree that we are all different, but sometime people forget that CHO does not equal just grains and sugar, CHOs are important fuels and should be adjusted for your type. I just don't like to see complex carbs lumped together with simple carbs. 40 g/day is really low, is the rest of your diet really just protein and fat????

Ruthiegirl, I'd have your daughter keep a food diary. There are several good web sites that can help with this. Perhaps when she sees what it is she is actually eating, she might be willing to adjust. This is a good site with a very large data base, even spelt products can be found.

Goldie, you need to watch this video if you think a pound of steak has the same affect on your body as a pound of sugar ::)
Posted by: jeanb, Saturday, June 9, 2012, 12:31pm; Reply: 30
Grey Rabbit,

My father's family have all died from complications of diabetes, so I wonder if I am "glucose" sensitive.  My mother's side Alzheimer's, so my swami is focused glycation removal.

You would be amazed at how many vegetables make up 40 grams of carbs per day, fruit usually gives me the runs and gives me a weird sugar rush, so vegetables, protein and fat is where it is at.  

No problems with my lipids (very good on the HDL as a matter of fact) very low triglycerides.

My husband (A warrior) eats exactly opposite of me to stay healthy and fit.  Our 0 kids are turning out to be like me.  Sugar affects them badly, as they get older, they are realizing a grain free diet keeps their skin clear as well.
Posted by: Mother, Saturday, June 9, 2012, 12:39pm; Reply: 31
I eat like you JeanB and I'm a Hunter. I'm about 40g carbs in vegetable and veg protein. I also have to keep my protein , especially red meat, fairly low to feel my best. No starch here. Not only does it pack on the weight, it doesn't feel right. I eat some beans and some nuts/seeds but not in large portions.
Posted by: grey rabbit, Saturday, June 9, 2012, 12:41pm; Reply: 32
jeanb, I'm just very curious as to what you are eating, not making any judgments here. 40g of CHO is only 160kcals, that means if you consume 2000 kcal daily you are eating 1840 kcals of fat and protein. I'm just surprised and curious. Anything beyond 1.6g/kg of protein might be hard on the kidneys. I know that good fats and good meats will not cause you lipid problems.
Posted by: Henriette Bsec, Saturday, June 9, 2012, 1:57pm; Reply: 33
I saw just last week that it was NOT true that a high protein diet gives you kidney problems.!!!
It has been withdrawn .
(it was not this link but here is somwthing about it
I only worry when I see high protein low fat diets- that is a troublemaker ...

I tend to eat around 20 % of my calorires from protein and 20-40 % from carbs and 40-60 % fats
My numbers are great ( much better than when I followed a low fat vegetarian diet
and IF I stayed on that diet I would probably loose the last 10 kg. ::)...but I just love fruit and yoghurt too much to stay in that area but I prefer when I get around 50- 100 grams carbs pr day

Emma who is 17 and slim but well built
eats at least 50 % of her calories from fat  :o and 20-25 % protein  and 25-30 % carbs.
She used to eat lots of snacks but after she has started to eat more at bf she hardly snacks...

Would she eat a green juice instead of a sweet juice  maybe with some good oil added ?
so her blodsugar stays more stable.
I would reduce the sweet options and make sure she gets enough protein and fat in all meals
Some kind of exercise would be mandatory - especially now at holidays- might give her good habits when the new school year comes.
However I think
SHE needs to be the one that chooses to make the new habits
You can help her and show her better options but really it is her problem .

hugs - know this is hard...
Posted by: grey rabbit, Saturday, June 9, 2012, 2:51pm; Reply: 34
HB, that's why I said "might" be hard on the kidneys, I do believe in individuality first and formost. At 40g of CHO per day, jeanb is only getting about 12% of her kcals from CHO, I'm just really wondering what she's eating, that's all.
Posted by: jeanb, Saturday, June 9, 2012, 6:15pm; Reply: 35
I can't eat 2000 calories per day anymore.  In the throws of menopause which seems to mean less calories but not as hungry as I used to be.

AM 2 fried eggs in butter, a handful of nuts. Tea

Lunch, a large salad with meat or eggs or fish.  Salad dressing of some sort.

Snack - pea pods, celery, broccoli - a couple of handfuls through the afternoon or a handful of nuts depending on how busy I am.

Dinner - meat and a veggie/salad.  I tend to not eat anything in the evening (never have been a snacker) Winter, will be more of a soup/stew dinner.  

Meat makes me feel really satisfied.  Before I heard about this way of life, I used to eat more carbohydrates and less fat and meat.  I used to have dreams about prime rib roasts oozing with meat juice, those dreams happily went away when I started eating enough meat for what I need.

I am 5'1" and well into my 50's.  I don't ever get sick and seem to have more athletic injuries more than anything these days (fell off my bike last week when the dog took off after a moose with him attached to my bike, it was a very heavy fall, but no bruising). I take vitamins every day and exercise almost every day.  Not thin, still in a size 8-10.

I think there was a discussion years ago on this board about "hard on kidneys."  My sister, the ICU nurse, has told me it is only people with severe kidney disease who have to watch their protein intake...
Posted by: jeanb, Saturday, June 9, 2012, 6:23pm; Reply: 36
GR, I have to say, that we often see others through our own lenses.  In other words, my A husband can't believe that I love meat so much.  He feels awful if he eats meat, so he can't understand how well I feel when I eat it even though he understands the blood type diet.

He loves fish, I eat it because I know I should, but I am usually hungry after I eat it.  It feels like I need a whole salmon to feel satisfied, but my husband only needs 4 oz.  He needs rice and complex carbs or else he feels hungry all the time.  Complex carbs make me feel hungry.

This is why nutrition science is so contradictory and non conclusive as we all react differently to our food.  Yes I follow my Swami, but I need to tweek it, especially as I get older.  

I would suggest you read Gary Taube's books, he gives some of those nutrition studies a kick in the butt, by actually explaining all of the study's outcomes.  Very Dr. D like.  
Posted by: grey rabbit, Saturday, June 9, 2012, 6:48pm; Reply: 37
Thanks jeanb, I don't really need to read more nutrition books, and I wasn't really questioning your wisdom with what you are eating, I was just curious. Unfortunately you didn't really satisfy my curiosity, you just listed the types of foods you eat and not the quantities. Oh well, doesn't really matter, I'm glad you have found what works for you.
Posted by: jeanb, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 1:33am; Reply: 38
GR, I don't really know the quantities, a few years back I had an online program where I put in everything I ate, and I learned that if I went above 40 gms of carbs, I put on weight quickly. The total calories varied greatly by day, I think the biggest days were about 2500 cal and the normal days were about 1600-1800.  When I stayed 40 gms and below in carbs and didn't pay attention to total calories, I had no problems with my weight.  

I watch use my swami and watch grams of carbs that is pretty much it.  I eat more on the weekends and less during the week when I am working.  If I am feeling hungry, I eat more meat and fat.  
Posted by: Possum, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 2:29am; Reply: 39
Henrietta - great to hear that kidney+protein connection has been withdrawn & thanks for the link!! I certainly never seem to get any kidney problems & I eat high protein - in fact almost identical to you Jean!! If I stay under a certain level of carbs & up my fat I lose weight, if my carbs go up & fat down I gain!! & like you Jean I rarely snack doing that - just don't have the desire/appetite for it, which is really great having previously been a grazer most of my life ;)
In the last 3 weeks, I have eaten Lindt 80% dark choc & 2 squares will satisfy me just to round off a meal... Conversely the higher carb ones (even at 70%) I actually crave more of & find it hard not to indulge!! So I have finally proved to myself, that even if I spend more on the Lindt, my choc budget stays absolutely the same :D
I guess it is the same as me eating more expensive & more satiating meat - I need way less of that too?!
Posted by: Goldie, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 2:47am; Reply: 40
Quoted Text
Goldie, you need to watch this video if you think a pound of steak has the same affect on your body as a pound of sugar

I did not see the link..

As for sugar I never ate a pound of it even in my heydays of when I was a size 5 and could eat all I wanted.. I ate many a pastry, and many a pound of meat, and never gained until I got married at 21..

As for kids, I took on 3 teen, dysfunctional ones that had no parenting, and sometimes ate paper for food...  In my house of plenty, they could eat the hard candy, and all the fruit they liked.. after the first week they no longer fought over bananas and ate fresh cooked food.. the choices they made where theirs and they learned very quick.. strangely the hard candy even got old and the bowl only needed to be refilled - by the pound- ONCE.. I never bought soda, but made juices and cooked compliant for O's.

As for eating .. under 60 carbs.. NO counting required.

Breakfast 1-2 eggs depending on size, smidgen butter, decaf, cocoa in water plain.
Morning snack , grapefruit 1 oz in a glass of water.
Lunch, a plate full of any one vegetable listed below - with meat ...
Afternoon snack attack, icecrem-cone single-scoop, or chocolate, or papaya, in fruit, or pineapples, or berries, or nuts.
Dinner another type of vegetable plate full, and top-round steak (I try to eat only one type of vegetable at any meal.)

Here my choice of veggies to be found in my house any day:  

Celery ◊
Escarole ◊
Fennel -seldom
Kale -seldom
Kohlrabi -seldom
Lettuce, Green Leaf, Iceberg - used to be avoid
Onion, all types ◊
Peppers, Bell
Pumpkin ◊ - seldom
Rutabaga ◊ - seldom
Spinach ◊
... Yam   - seldom

Belgium Endive  
Lettuce, Romaine - used to be Beneficial..
Sweet Potato  

My so called 'cheats' are some slice of cheese, or on a bad day extra fruits - prunes, raisins, dates or salad dressings when out of the house....

So you see, life is good.. If I drank more water, it would be even better. ...
less then 1500 calories but then I am on 'old' lady and need to watch my figure.
As a kid I ate way more food.

As for carbs from grains, beans, dairy.. they make me starving.. wanting me to do endless eating..  

Posted by: jeanb, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 2:54am; Reply: 41
Hey Possum,

I am with you on the chocolate, if I have cheap milk chocolate, I will continue eating it without getting satisfied.  When I eat Lindt chocolate, I only need 2-3 squares and I don't need more.  

I wonder if the fat makes us satisfied so we don't need more food...sugar and grainy carbs make us crave more sugar and grainy carbs.
Posted by: Possum, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 3:02am; Reply: 42
Goldie - I guarantee if you had more than a "smidge of butter" as well as some vegs in the morning with your egg (even if just lettuce - goes so well chopped with eggs & a "smidge" of chili sauce) & again more fat at lunch, you would not have the need for a "snack attack" in the afternoon, especially that sugar laden icecream ;)

Ppl usually only crave sugar if their blood sugar is low, which is the very worst thing for them to eat right then... :-/ ;) If you lowered those carbs, upped the fat & even decreased the meat, if you did need anything you may well be happy with another small piece of meat in a lettuce leaf with a 'smidge" of a good complaint low carb (not low fat) mayonaise :-/

Is life good on 1500 cals - after all you are the one bemoaning how you can't shift the extra pounds??!! Staying under 40 carbs (or even under 30 initially, for those of us that have diabetes in the family) is not a bad thing & you still don't need to count much...

Btw those cheat salad dressings have a phenomenal amount of carbs in them & will certainly pack on the pounds on some of us, or at least certainly keep you from losing!!
Posted by: Possum, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 3:05am; Reply: 43
Quoted from jeanb
Hey Possum,

I am with you on the chocolate, if I have cheap milk chocolate, I will continue eating it without getting satisfied.  When I eat Lindt chocolate, I only need 2-3 squares and I don't need more.  

I wonder if the fat makes us satisfied so we don't need more food...sugar and grainy carbs make us crave more sugar and grainy carbs.
Hi Jean - I haven't checked the fat content of the Lindt but I wasn't even eating cheap milk choc... My second choice was a good 70% cocoa (around 50g carbs per 100g) Whittakers choc (made in NZ) & even that made me crave more... I think I am particularly carb sensitive ;)

Posted by: Drea, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 3:31am; Reply: 44
Quoted from jeanb

I wonder if the fat makes us satisfied so we don't need more food...sugar and grainy carbs make us crave more sugar and grainy carbs.

I know that it's true for me.
Posted by: Goldie, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 4:09am; Reply: 45
Possum,  The above was just to show that below 60 carbs is doable for O's -

For when I chose to stay the same weight.. I am ok..

But to drop weight, I need to go way restricted in everything... for a life long time. Then I have to really go to 3-4 oz measured meat 2 times a day, 2-3 cups green watery veggies twice, 1-2 small or half's of fruit and nothing more..    

Vegetables in the morning..I am not that hungry...   I would quicker have some broth, I have enough energy until noon..
It is by the afternoon that I run out of emotional energy and look for 'something' to keep me 'up'.  
It is then that I feel 'hungry' if not deprived.  What I never did, is to cook a third meat and veggies 11... 3 and 6...and add more oil that way...  I think I could balance it by cutting the meats off the other meals.  Need to try that and see if there is a fat I could learn to love.  Mayo is avoid.. but I recently posted the possibility of adding oil to a hardboiled egg and mash it.. I need to try making that..

On a day when I eat some avoid, I have to give up some other food... or I go up in weight fast.  like with Ice cream..

Nutrition Facts  
Serving Size 1 cone and single scoop (or 1 small cone)  
Amount Per Serving
Calories from Fat 67   Calories 173  

That is why I am trying to come up with alternatives like frozen pineapple, and mash it with 1 oz of farmer cheese or quark and a little ice, or some banana slices and the chesses I am allowed - 4-6 oz a week.... But the jury is out on that but with summer here it will be important to find some such things.

FOR THE DAUGHTER however, as a teen she needs to eat way more just for her health.  Big difference from older people.. yet when overweight I think going low carb might work???? .. if she so desires... might be the only way to learn about foods.. Low fat is out.. so is low salt.. so is starving.

--At her age I did not need to worry, I ate 3 oz cold cuts by hand while doing my daily shopping at the butcher,(they all knew of my habits), a small chocolate bar (Maestrani Stengeli) at the baker while buying a fresh backed loaf of bread, a fruit while shopping at the grocery store and then I went home to cook... 2-3 creamy pastries in the afternoon or bread butter and jam or chese... On Friday's we had pizza-size slices of fruit or cheese with onions on thin crust..(ask Amazon l ... she will confirm that way of eating -at home.) mmmmhhhh  ... aah Life was different then.  I lived the good life then, never needed to think of 'what kind of' food to eat.  I have lived in the best of times.. I wish every teenager the same.. I never talked about food then.. no one else did either.. I  think it was impolite to tell anyone what or when to eat.  Time / food has changed.
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