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BTD Forums  /  The Encyclopedia/ D'Adamo Library  /  Why hasn't my gut healed yet?
Posted by: TJ, Friday, January 27, 2012, 7:34pm
When I first read the GTD book in 2008, I recognized the signs of gut damage in myself: the lines in my fingerprints and the food sensitivities.  Since then, I have been on a low- to no-gluten diet with only occasional use of gluten foods, such as experiments with barley (while trying out the Gatherer diet) and spelt, sacrament/communion bread, and traces of gluten that may be found in many foods.  When I bought SWAMI, I checked off the lines in fingerprints so that the diet would always take into account the need to heal my gut.  I no longer eat the sacrament bread.  I go for gluten-free products when it's reasonable to do so, and try to minimize gluten when it isn't.

Four years later, I've made no lasting progress.  My fingerprints (heck, the whole palm side of my fingers) are still shot through with lines and the ridges are low.  I'm very thin, have low muscle strength, still struggle with fatigue, nd I still react badly to eggs and dairy proteins; all of which suggests that my gut is still in need of substantial healing.

If these dietary changes were going to heal my gut, wouldn't they have done so already?  What else could be preventing my gut from healing?
Posted by: yaeli, Friday, January 27, 2012, 7:59pm; Reply: 1
TJ, do you take anything from the Intestinal Health Protocol?
Posted by: Possum, Friday, January 27, 2012, 8:02pm; Reply: 2
TJ I feel for you!! Us nonnies do have our multiple issues...I wonder if your problems are from things that aren't covered quite as much even by the "nonnie diet" Perhaps you are more of an Explorer than you think..

As you might recall, I suffer a fair bit from the effects of sulphur/sulphites/phenols etc...Was just getting back into some extensive reading yesterday after reintroducing berries etc into my diet (with really bad effect) & I was amazed (as I was on first discovering this aspect) how much damage things like phenols can do... ::) :-/
Posted by: Spring, Friday, January 27, 2012, 8:39pm; Reply: 3
You have had a lot of trauma to deal with during those four years, TJ. No question about it. This is what works for me when I have a lot of things going on that are hard to deal with - getting outside and digging in the dirt or some other outside activity. And working at it for hours until I am very tired. Rest never felt so good as it does after I do that. Walking around with my head UP tells me a lot about what is going on inside too. Remember lying on your back in the grass looking UP and watching the clouds go by when you were a kid? Kids haven't been doing that for a long time for nothing. It is too bad that it is becoming almost obsolete! I will have to remember to do that with my grandson when I'm with him again! Sure beats trying to play "tackle" with him! He is so surprised that grandmother can't do that sort of thing anymore! Also, tightening the muscles in the body from your feet to your neck, one area at a time, just before going to sleep at night is very calming and relaxing.

There is no doubt that you are due for a breakthrough. And I truly hope that it comes soon. I've read about one method that is used in one country to calm and relax the stomach and a lot of stock is placed in it. I found that doing that not only helped my stomach but lowered my blood pressure in minutes! I relate the following as an example of how quickly this sort of thing can work - Last night I had a horrible pain in my stomach that came on very suddenly while I was busy with getting ready to have a new floor put in our kitchen today, and I thought surely I was coming down with the virus that is raging in this area. Of course, I started downing ginger and vitamin C among other things, but I needed something for the awful pain in my stomach right away. (This was not normal gas pains by any means!)I was already getting dizzy from whatever was the matter. I have some of that cream from Puritan called The Rub and I lathered it on all over my stomach - twice.  About an hour later I had no pain, slept great and have felt wonderful today! (I did have a container by the bed, though, just in case I got sick during the night!)  I am a great believer in taking external measures to deal with internal problems! Here are some of the ingredients of The Rub:
Arnica Montana 8%
Monk's Hood 1X
Belladonna 1X
Calendula officinalls 1X
Witch Hazel 1X
St. John's Wart 1X
Rue 1X
Comfrey 1X
I think your stomach needs some serious TLC, TJ!(smile)
Posted by: Chloe, Friday, January 27, 2012, 8:40pm; Reply: 4
TJ  Have you ever been checked for H Pylori?
Posted by: Victoria, Friday, January 27, 2012, 8:58pm; Reply: 5
Just a thought, TJ --

You describe your diet as:
"only occasional use of gluten foods"
"gluten-free products when it's reasonable to do so, and try to minimize gluten when it isn't"

Low gluten is not the same as gluten-free and if a person is truly gluten intolerant, even small amounts of gluten are disastrous to the lining of the gut.

My gut never began truly healing until I completely eliminated all traces of gluten from my diet.  
Posted by: Maria Giovanna, Friday, January 27, 2012, 10:05pm; Reply: 6
T J ditto with Victoria no gluten at all also for me is needed, I need months to heal every time some gluten slip in my diet, if its gluten plus dairy OMG a disaster forr nearly a month and slow healing after
Posted by: Amazone I., Friday, January 27, 2012, 10:06pm; Reply: 7
intj-issues??) ... meant here is the psychological thingies, not anything else ;)
Posted by: yaeli, Friday, January 27, 2012, 10:20pm; Reply: 8
Quoted from Spring
I have some of that cream from Puritan called The Rub and I lathered it on all over my stomach - twice.  About an hour later I had no pain, slept great and have felt wonderful today! (I did have a container by the bed, though, just in case I got sick during the night!)  I am a great believer in taking external measures to deal with internal problems!
This sounds great! I see that Vitacost sells it. I have a very young friend who is A-. She often suffers terrible cramps and her medical check ups have ruled out any pathology. I'd like to get some for her - and for myself as well......

Thank you for the good advice!  :) 8)
Posted by: Amazone I., Friday, January 27, 2012, 10:26pm; Reply: 9
aaahhhaaa.. can be replaced with essential oils as well... yaaahhhuuii .... here I might give any advices........ ;) ;D ;D(clown)(wiseman)(smile)(smarty)
Posted by: Dianne, Friday, January 27, 2012, 10:56pm; Reply: 10
I read somewhere that you can be off of gluten for awhile and then if you happen to ingest some for what ever reason, the damage lasts for six months. So...having a little here or there and sometimes unbeknown to yourself is not a good idea. It's like taking of the scab as things are trying to heal and starting over.

The Intrinsia from Dr. D. and glutamine are excellent, excellent remedies for gut healing.
Posted by: Andrea AWsec, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 12:25am; Reply: 11
Nothing like the supplements that Dr. D has to heal the gut.  Have you ever used used Gastro D and intrinsia -- and deflect and live cell?





:)
Posted by: Possum, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 12:36am; Reply: 12
Quoted from Dianne
I read somewhere that you can be off of gluten for awhile and then if you happen to ingest some for what ever reason, the damage lasts for six months. So...having a little here or there and sometimes unbeknown to yourself is not a good idea. It's like taking of the scab as things are trying to heal and starting over.
Dianne I have heard that too...re even a little bit of gluten being such a problem ::) Take care TJ...;)
Posted by: Chloe, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 12:53am; Reply: 13
Quoted from Maria Giovanna
T J ditto with Victoria no gluten at all also for me is needed, I need months to heal every time some gluten slip in my diet, if its gluten plus dairy OMG a disaster forr nearly a month and slow healing after


Me too....gluten is lethal to my gut....I'm so careful but even a little gluten eaten by mistake can set me back and inflame my gut something awful.  Dairy isn't as obvious to my gut as gluten is, but can trigger an inflammatory reaction in my entire body within a day or two. I had full blown celiac...
some people are just sensitive to it.

Posted by: Andrea AWsec, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 1:02am; Reply: 14
You can stay off gluten but you will not heal the gut by doing so--- it is always about what you do eat/do then what you don't.

The supplements are necessary.  :-/
Posted by: Christopher1, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 1:37am; Reply: 15
Quoted from TJ
When I first read the GTD book in 2008, I recognized the signs of gut damage in myself: the lines in my fingerprints and the food sensitivities.  Since then, I have been on a low- to no-gluten diet with only occasional use of gluten foods, such as experiments with barley (while trying out the Gatherer diet) and spelt, sacrament/communion bread, and traces of gluten that may be found in many foods.  When I bought SWAMI, I checked off the lines in fingerprints so that the diet would always take into account the need to heal my gut.  I no longer eat the sacrament bread.  I go for gluten-free products when it's reasonable to do so, and try to minimize gluten when it isn't.

Four years later, I've made no lasting progress.  My fingerprints (heck, the whole palm side of my fingers) are still shot through with lines and the ridges are low.  I'm very thin, have low muscle strength, still struggle with fatigue, nd I still react badly to eggs and dairy proteins; all of which suggests that my gut is still in need of substantial healing.

If these dietary changes were going to heal my gut, wouldn't they have done so already?  What else could be preventing my gut from healing?


I got rid of all gluten, but only got better when I eliminated all mycotoxins in my diet.
Posted by: TJ, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 1:44am; Reply: 16
Quoted from yaeli
TJ, do you take anything from the Intestinal Health Protocol?
Yes, I've used Deflect, Polyflora, magnesium, ghee, and ARA Plus.

Quoted from Possum
TJ I feel for you!! Us nonnies do have our multiple issues...I wonder if your problems are from things that aren't covered quite as much even by the "nonnie diet" Perhaps you are more of an Explorer than you think..

As you might recall, I suffer a fair bit from the effects of sulphur/sulphites/phenols etc...Was just getting back into some extensive reading yesterday after reintroducing berries etc into my diet (with really bad effect) & I was amazed (as I was on first discovering this aspect) how much damage things like phenols can do... ::) :-/
Explorer is my #2.  Probably around 40% if I could look at that on SWAMI.  I have trouble with sulfites, too, and I stay away from them.
Posted by: TJ, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 1:45am; Reply: 17
Quoted from Spring
You have had a lot of trauma to deal with during those four years, TJ. No question about it.

...There is no doubt that you are due for a breakthrough. And I truly hope that it comes soon. I've read about one method that is used in one country to calm and relax the stomach and a lot of stock is placed in it. I found that doing that not only helped my stomach but lowered my blood pressure in minutes! I relate the following as an example of how quickly this sort of thing can work - Last night I had a horrible pain in my stomach that came on very suddenly while I was busy with getting ready to have a new floor put in our kitchen today, and I thought surely I was coming down with the virus that is raging in this area.... I think your stomach needs some serious TLC, TJ!(smile)
Quoted from Chloe
TJ  Have you ever been checked for H Pylori?
There certainly have been bouts of severe stress over this time.  Even so, four years?  I've never had reason to believe I have ulcers or H. pylori.  It's extremely rare for me to have nausea/upset stomach.  I think my stomach is fine, with the problems being mostly in my small intestine.
Posted by: TJ, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 1:46am; Reply: 18
Quoted from Victoria
Just a thought, TJ --

You describe your diet as:
"only occasional use of gluten foods"
"gluten-free products when it's reasonable to do so, and try to minimize gluten when it isn't"

Low gluten is not the same as gluten-free and if a person is truly gluten intolerant, even small amounts of gluten are disastrous to the lining of the gut.

My gut never began truly healing until I completely eliminated all traces of gluten from my diet.
Yes, I have considered that.  I went several months in 2010 as gluten-free as I could get, including supplements and medications. :-/  I noted some small improvements right off the bat, but nothing substantial ever came of it.  I could be wrong.  SWAMI gives me spelt (a gluten grain) as a neutral.  Of course SWAMI doesn't know everything.

Quoted from Dianne
The Intrinsia from Dr. D. and glutamine are excellent, excellent remedies for gut healing.
Quoted from Andrea AWsec
Nothing like the supplements that Dr. D has to heal the gut.  Have you ever used used Gastro D and intrinsia -- and deflect and live cell?
I haven't tried Intrinsia, Gastro-D, Live Cell, or glutamine.  I'm taking gobs of supplements already, and if I can ever get together to means to purchase the herbs for the Buhner Lyme protocol, I'll then be taking more than twice what I'm taking now.  How many different supplements can you take and still get benefit from all of them?  I'm once again on a very tight budget, too.  Having used Dr. D's supps, I'm a believer in them, but they are still costly.
Posted by: TJ, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 1:47am; Reply: 19
Quoted from Andrea AWsec
You can stay off gluten but you will not heal the gut by doing so--- it is always about what you do eat/do then what you don't.

The supplements are necessary.  :-/
This I understand.  Take away the stuff that's making you sick, and add stuff to make you heal.

--------

Thank you all for your input.  What I'm really wondering is if there is some other sort of underlying condition that's contributing.  Is there something else I don't know about?  Do you have any ideas about other possible causes?
Posted by: Andrea AWsec, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 2:23am; Reply: 20
Maybe it is time for a phone consult with Dr. Nash probably cost you less in the long run.
Posted by: Victoria, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 2:24am; Reply: 21
If you do decide to drop all gluten and want to try one Dr. D supplement, consider the Intrinsia.  It's unique and powerful.

I think gluten is your enemy.   :-/
Posted by: TJ, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 3:43am; Reply: 22
Quoted from Chloe
Me too....gluten is lethal to my gut....I'm so careful but even a little gluten eaten by mistake can set me back and inflame my gut something awful.  Dairy isn't as obvious to my gut as gluten is, but can trigger an inflammatory reaction in my entire body within a day or two. I had full blown celiac...
some people are just sensitive to it.
Quoted from Maria Giovanna
T J ditto with Victoria no gluten at all also for me is needed, I need months to heal every time some gluten slip in my diet, if its gluten plus dairy OMG a disaster forr nearly a month and slow healing after
Quoted from Victoria
My gut never began truly healing until I completely eliminated all traces of gluten from my diet.  
I have a question for y'all: how can you tell?  I'm not questioning if gluten is really a problem for you.  I just want to know what tips you off that you've accidentally ingested gluten, and how you know when you've recovered from the damage.  I need to know what to look for!
Posted by: Spring, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 3:58am; Reply: 23
Quoted from yaeli
This sounds great! I see that Vitacost sells it. I have a very young friend who is A-. She often suffers terrible cramps and her medical check ups have ruled out any pathology. I'd like to get some for her - and for myself as well......

Thank you for the good advice!  :) 8)


I have been using it for decades and don't want to ever be without it! (smile)
Posted by: Spring, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 4:10am; Reply: 24
Quoted from TJ
Thank you all for your input.  What I'm really wondering is if there is some other sort of underlying condition that's contributing.  Is there something else I don't know about?  Do you have any ideas about other possible causes?

There may be, TJ, but don't underestimate the damage stress can do to you. I know very well myself that it can kill you!! It can undo everything under the sun that we try to do to maintain our health! Be your body's best friend - with all its strengths and weaknesses!! A few light bulbs may go off among the lot of us, you included, that will shed more light as we think more about all this. And be aware that we all care about you and are hoping for a very good outcome!  (smile)
Posted by: Spring, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 4:16am; Reply: 25
Quoted from TJ
I have a question for y'all: how can you tell?  I'm not questioning if gluten is really a problem for you.  I just want to know what tips you off that you've accidentally ingested gluten, and how you know when you've recovered from the damage.  I need to know what to look for!

Very good questions! I don't have a clue about anything I'm eating that has gluten in it. I have the gluten food list that is about two miles long around here somewhere. I need to find it and give it a going over. I have lines again on my fingers so I'm wondering what else may cause them. ??)
Posted by: ABJoe, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 4:29am; Reply: 26
TJ,

Even if you get gluten completely out of your diet, you may have some stored in the body that gets removed as you heal...  It can have the same effects as when you ate it.  I'm going through this with grains, chemicals, and some other "stuff".

The only difference I can see between where you are and where I am is that I have a practitioner that can verify that I am healing, in spite of how I feel most of the time.  
Posted by: Dianne, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 4:44am; Reply: 27
TJ - you would have to eat a lot of ghee to get the benefits from it. The butyric acid in the Intrinsia is more potent and concentrated.

I get stuff on SWAMI that I would never eat because of my gluten sensitivity even though it is suggested.

Spelt is probably not something you should eat.

Posted by: TJ, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 6:54am; Reply: 28
Quoted from Spring
There may be, TJ, but don't underestimate the damage stress can do to you. I know very well myself that it can kill you!! It can undo everything under the sun that we try to do to maintain our health! Be your body's best friend - with all its strengths and weaknesses!!
I know, I've been there.  Too much stress is what finally broke my back, so to speak.  I know it's harmful, but I'm doing what I can about it right now.

Quoted from Spring
A few light bulbs may go off among the lot of us, you included, that will shed more light as we think more about all this. And be aware that we all care about you and are hoping for a very good outcome!  (smile)
Thank you, and I sure hope so.  Maybe some other people will get something out of it, too.

Posted by: Amazone I., Saturday, January 28, 2012, 6:57am; Reply: 29
B-vits, Mg and aminoacids like L'Glutamin might help as well (smile)
Posted by: TJ, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 7:08am; Reply: 30
Joe, that's an interesting thought.  I hope that's not what's going on.  I'll never know which way is up if that's happening.  It's like the acid-heads that get flashbacks...

Dianne, I get both ghee and butter as diamond foods.  And let me tell you, I eat a LOT of butter.  Ghee is just concentrated butter: fat minus water and milk solids.  I'm sure Intrinsia would help, but I can't justify the cost.  If I eat wheat, I feel totally wrecked the next day.  There's no mistaking that.  I'm thinking you're probably right about the spelt, but how can I tell?  I felt all-over yucky before, during, and after I was using it.  I felt no GI distress.

Pretty much since I got back from NC at the end of November, I have felt all-over yucky with some good days scattered throughout.  I don't even know why.  I can't make any consistent connections between things I've eaten or done and how I've felt.  I can't afford a practitioner to walk me through this process of healing.  I won't be able to until I'm working steady again.  Question is, how long will it be before I'm able to go back to work, and when I do, how long will I be able to keep it up?  It's a vicious catch-22. :'(

Alright, I'll quit whining now.
Posted by: yaeli, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 8:12am; Reply: 31
Quoted from ABJoe
TJ,

Even if you get gluten completely out of your diet, you may have some stored in the body that gets removed as you heal...  It can have the same effects as when you ate it.  I'm going through this with grains, chemicals, and some other "stuff".

The only difference I can see between where you are and where I am is that I have a practitioner that can verify that I am healing, in spite of how I feel most of the time.  
It really requires a looooooooooooooooooot of patience. One must go philosophically about it and have faith. You have no way to know from beforehand if it's only your gluten sensitivity or if there's something else as well. The one thing that will for sure tell you in good time is your body. You don't have to go on challenging your body with any gluten anymore, cause this one you already KNOW. My name is Yaeli and I am gluten sensitive. So my "grains" are rice, quinoa, and buckwheat. That's all, and Praise the Lord. This is the only way I can go about it.  

Posted by: yaeli, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 8:33am; Reply: 32
Quoted from yaeli
So my "grains" are rice, quinoa, and buckwheat.
Oops! and millet. Heating some right now.

Posted by: bel, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 1:01pm; Reply: 33
hey TJ! i have the same problem as you too!! been on this diet about as long as you and my whitelines are still very evident even though i have stopped eating all gluten containing food  :(
Posted by: Christopher1, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 5:24pm; Reply: 34
Everybody is focusing on gluten, but not mycotoxin. All of you have environmental sensitivities, which includes mold (I had the very same problem). Your white lines won't get better until you address that issue...
Posted by: Spring, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 5:59pm; Reply: 35
Quoted from Christopher1
Everybody is focusing on gluten, but not mycotoxin. All of you have environmental sensitivities, which includes mold (I had the very same problem). Your white lines won't get better until you address that issue...

Addressing the sensitivity itself is more important than trying to avoid everything under the sun that may or may not be bothering us! Of course, most anyone would know that wading around in mold in your house isn't healthy for anyone whether they are known to be "sensitive" to it or not. Eating foods loaded with mycotoxins is something that is done day in and day out. But there are things we can do to help our bodies fight the damage they can do to us. Of course, we can get into the polyamine problem again. That canned stuff? The flash frozen veggies? The meat that has been lying around in the fridge for days? Etc., etc......
Posted by: Christopher1, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 6:12pm; Reply: 36
Quoted from Spring

Addressing the sensitivity itself is more important than trying to avoid everything under the sun that may or may not be bothering us! Of course, most anyone would know that wading around in mold in your house isn't healthy for anyone whether they are known to be "sensitive" to it or not. Eating foods loaded with mycotoxins is something that is done day in and day out. But there are things we can do to help our bodies fight the damage they can do to us. Of course, we can get into the polyamine problem again. That canned stuff? The flash frozen veggies? The meat that has been lying around in the fridge for days? Etc., etc......


Meat increases in polyamine content as it is in the fridge longer and longer? I thought it was just the flash freezing?
Posted by: 14442 (Guest), Saturday, January 28, 2012, 6:13pm; Reply: 37
Because you eat avoids or have some element of stress that isn't being addressed.
Posted by: Spring, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 6:56pm; Reply: 38
Quoted from Christopher1
Meat increases in polyamine content as it is in the fridge longer and longer? I thought it was just the flash freezing?

Not only are they produced in food sources: "And often, ........ they are produced by the body in response to the lectins contained in many plants, grains and legumes." In addition to that, meats and just about any food substance out there, including seafood. And especially if it is an avoid for you. The quote is from LRforYT, page 102. You can read further about this nasty stuff in the book. We need some polyamines but it is the overdose that can kill us. It needs to be pointed out that Dr. D. says the green flash-frozen veggies are an exception. It is so easy to throw fresh or cooked meats and veggies in the freezer if they are not going to be eaten right away. Except your salad stuff, of course! Just do it! (smile) My mother was very gentle with foods - no "shocking" them in her kitchen! Whether it was high heat or any of the over-processing methods that can promote an over-abundance of polyamines. But the important thing is to stick with the diet that is yours and take very good care of your foods!
Posted by: Christopher1, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 7:17pm; Reply: 39
Quoted from Spring

Not only are they produced in food sources: "And often, ........ they are produced by the body in response to the lectins contained in many plants, grains and legumes." In addition to that, meats and just about any food substance out there, including seafood. And especially if it is an avoid for you. The quote is from LRforYT, page 102. You can read further about this nasty stuff in the book. We need some polyamines but it is the overdose that can kill us. It needs to be pointed out that Dr. D. says the green flash-frozen veggies are an exception. It is so easy to throw fresh or cooked meats and veggies in the freezer if they are not going to be eaten right away. Except your salad stuff, of course! Just do it! (smile) My mother was very gentle with foods - no "shocking" them in her kitchen! Whether it was high heat or any of the over-processing methods that can promote an over-abundance of polyamines. But the important thing is to stick with the diet that is yours and take very good care of your foods!


Good information. I try to do many things to inhibit ODC anyway. Mycotoxins are a larger problem I think.
Posted by: Victoria, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 7:22pm; Reply: 40
Quoted from TJ
If I eat wheat, I feel totally wrecked the next day.  There's no mistaking that.  I'm thinking you're probably right about the spelt, but how can I tell?  I felt all-over yucky before, during, and after I was using it.  I felt no GI distress.

Pretty much since I got back from NC at the end of November, I have felt all-over yucky with some good days scattered throughout.  I don't even know why.  I can't make any consistent connections between things I've eaten or done and how I've felt.  


TJ, why not commit to eating completely gluten-free and give that a chance?  You know you're gluten intolerant, but if you continue to eat some wheat and some spelt and keep feeling lousy, you're making yourself anxious and feeling yucky.   :K)
Posted by: TJ, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 7:28pm; Reply: 41
Quoted from Christopher1
Everybody is focusing on gluten, but not mycotoxin. All of you have environmental sensitivities, which includes mold (I had the very same problem). Your white lines won't get better until you address that issue...
I am sensitive to mold; getting away from it was a benefit of moving to the desert.  Perhaps you are referring to something else?  I don't eat moldy food if that's what you're wondering about! ::)
Posted by: TJ, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 7:50pm; Reply: 42
Quoted from Spring
Addressing the sensitivity itself is more important than trying to avoid everything under the sun that may or may not be bothering us!
Amen to that.  The fact that I remain so frail and oversensitive indicates that there is something deeper going on.  Healthy bodies, and even not-so-healthy bodies, can eat "avoid" foods day after day and still be able to go about their day-to-day activities.  I am physically, mentally, and emotionally handicapped when it comes to doing what I need to do or coping with routine stresses.

Guys, I'm pretty sure I have Lyme disease, but nothing I've read so far tells me that it wrecks the gut.  Maybe I just missed that in my reading.  I don't know, my mind and memory aren't reliable.

I eat well over 2000 calories per day and I take a digestive enzyme supplement at least once daily; my metabolism is running pretty low, judging by my lethargy and sensitivity to cold; yet here I am starving or so it looks like.  I'm 5'10" and only 135 lbs.  My muscle tone is virtually non-existent.  The little bit of muscle I have is very weak.  My ribs are easily visible through my skin.  There are hordes of men out there who have biceps and calves that are bigger around than my thighs.  If I force myself to go to the gym and work out regularly, the only things I'll accomplish are a slight, initial increase in muscle tone and strength, followed by a collapse into exhaustion from burning up my reserve of energy faster than it can be replenished.

Our bodies are like engines.  A certain amount of fuel is needed just to keep them idling.  The bigger the engine, the more is required.  I'm not getting enough fuel, so my body cannibalizes itself to reduce what's needed to keep me idling (i.e. alive), sort of like downgrading to a smaller engine.

Healing requires raw materials: the nutrients we get from the food we eat.  Clearly I'm not getting enough, and that's why I haven't healed yet.  I want to know what is standing in the way, and what can I do about it?
Posted by: Chloe, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 8:16pm; Reply: 43
With celiac disease, or gluten allergy, the body exhibits an immune response in the small intestine whenever gluten protein is present. Such a reaction aggravates the intestinal lining and damages the little "hairs" (villi) covering the wall of the digestive tract. In properly functioning organs, these villi will help push food along the intestinal tube while aiding in the absorption of nutrients into the bloodstream. In patients with celiac disease, this absorption process is impeded and can lead to cases of rapid weight loss and eventual malnutrition if left untreated.

Read more: http://www.oprah.com/health/Gluten-Free-Is-It-for-Me-Daphne-Oz/3#ixzz1kmnJ6LaH
Posted by: ABJoe, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 8:27pm; Reply: 44
Quoted from TJ
Guys, I'm pretty sure I have Lyme disease, but nothing I've read so far tells me that it wrecks the gut.  Maybe I just missed that in my reading.  I don't know, my mind and memory aren't reliable.

Lyme spirochetes travel from the site of the bite to anywhere in the body via the skin, lymph system, and blood. They can ultimately cause problems in all body systems.

Here’s a plain-English list of common symptoms:

Brain and Central Nervous System:
migraines, dizziness, brain fog, poor memory, poor sleep, lack of verbal fluency, confusion or disorientation, decreased ability to concentrate, facial nerve tics or paralysis, sore jaw, sinusitis, mood swings, difficulty chewing or swallowing, sore throat, hoarseness, muscle twitches, numbness and tingling, shooting pains, and lower back or neck pain. Lyme has also been found to mimic all the psychiatric disorders.

Muscles, joints, and bones: pains that come and go (with or without swelling), cramps, stiffness.

Circulation: too fast or two slow heart rate, irregular heartbeat (palpitations), inflammation of the heart muscle or arteries, and chest pain.

Breathing: sinusitis, difficulty breathing, and pneumonias.

Skin: rashes, itching, crawling sensations, benign cysts and nodules, and skin discoloration.

Eyes: pain, inflammation, blurred or double vision, retinal damage, floaters, flashing lights, light sensitivity, dry eye, and blindness.

Ears: itching, earache, buzzing, ringing, and sound sensitivity.

Digestive tract: nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, constipation, loss of appetite, mild liver function abnormalities, and spleen tenderness and enlargement.

Genitourinary tract:
inflammation of the urethra and bladder, pelvic pain, testicular pain, and loss of sexual desire.

General: tiredness, lack of stamina, fever, vague discomfort, irritability, nervousness or anxiety, and weight loss or gain.

Borrelia is a brilliant bacterium that can avoid detection by the body’s immune system by changing shape, becoming cell-wall deficient (living inside red blood cells) or encysting over with albumin, which antibiotics can’t reach, and hiding out in a dormant state in hard to reach places like the spaces between ligaments and bones.

Source:  http://www.lymediseaseblog.com/lyme-disease-symptoms/

Maybe I've been denial...  I have had and continue to have almost all of these symptoms...
Posted by: DoS, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 8:44pm; Reply: 45
TJ is everything well digested that goes through you?

Please try soy lecithin with your fats, just eat a spoonful with fats. Try to get B vitamins in the same meal; but make it breakfast or lunch.

Your diet is not high on choline, essential for liver fat digestion. People usually get it from eggs and soy, which you don't eat.

I understand your frustration. I have come to the conclusion that when no results are being seen there are a couple possibilities, allergies are completely halting function or something isn't being digested. A lot of things are fat soluble, just to say.
Posted by: ABJoe, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 8:52pm; Reply: 46
Quoted from TJ
Healing requires raw materials: the nutrients we get from the food we eat.  Clearly I'm not getting enough, and that's why I haven't healed yet.  I want to know what is standing in the way, and what can I do about it?

From the list of common symptoms, it sounds like the Lyme (and possibly gluten as a helper) may be doing this to you.
Posted by: Spring, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 9:14pm; Reply: 47
Quoted from ABJoe
Maybe I've been denial...  I have had and continue to have almost all of these symptoms...


One thing for sure, you have been a tremendous support to a lot of people on this forum with your active interest in trying to help them. There is a lot to be said for empathetic people, but I think your understanding goes a lot farther than that because of your own situation.  In my book you are a hero!
Posted by: ABJoe, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 9:30pm; Reply: 48
Thanks! ;)
Posted by: Spring, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 9:34pm; Reply: 49
sensitivity to cold
Every time I read this it scares me. I know that I am deficient in iodine because I eat hardly any salt, and I had to quit taking multi-vitamins decades ago because of an "allergic" reaction to it and all dyes with it in them. I spent too many summers freezing to death in the evenings before I learned that I could paint my skin with iodine and not react to it. It is such a simple little test to see if it works, but the benefits are wonderful. No fungus has been known to survive it nor bacteria! As soon as I started using iodine on the skin, I not only stopped freezing to death, but my overall well-being was shifted into overdrive. In fact, the iodine will warm me up in 30 minutes, and the other improvements follow soon after. If I had Lyme's Disease, I would be making sure that I got plenty of iodine for my needs. Why  iodine is knocked around so and bromine\bromide is basically given the green light is beyond my comprehension. I have a feeling that a good number on this forum are sorely lacking it unless they are able, and do, eat seafood and things like kelp. Or a lot of iodized salt.
Posted by: Spring, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 9:36pm; Reply: 50
Quoted from ABJoe
Thanks! ;)


You are more than welcome!(sunny)
Posted by: Possum, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 9:38pm; Reply: 51
Quoted from Spring
One thing for sure, you have been a tremendous support to a lot of people on this forum with your active interest in trying to help them. There is a lot to be said for empathetic people, but I think your understanding goes a lot farther than that because of your own situation.  In my book you are a hero!
Well said Spring!! I agree!! Your empathy ABJoe (or anyone's) is sometimes more useful than "getting all the answers"...We all somehow muddle through this together...;)
Posted by: meribelle, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 9:40pm; Reply: 52
Quoted from Possum
TJ I feel for you!! Us nonnies do have our multiple issues...:) :-/


possum, I love your signature...Put down the grains and run away!  that is so true!
Posted by: Spring, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 9:49pm; Reply: 53
Quoted from Victoria
TJ, why not commit to eating completely gluten-free and give that a chance?  You know you're gluten intolerant, but if you continue to eat some wheat and some spelt and keep feeling lousy, you're making yourself anxious and feeling yucky.   :K)


I think it is hard sometimes to realize how important our "guts" are, (for lack of a better word.??) ) And how easily they are impacted by what we eat. We can get holes in them that are hard to mend, and before they mend they can cause us a world of trouble! If people were as concerned about what they threw into their stomachs (guts) as they are about their hearts giving out, or their lungs, or their brains, or their joints, etc., etc., it would be wonderful!!!
Posted by: Spring, Saturday, January 28, 2012, 10:00pm; Reply: 54
Quoted from Dianne
TJ - you would have to eat a lot of ghee to get the benefits from it. The butyric acid in the Intrinsia is more potent and concentrated.


When I was suffering agony from inflammation of the esophagus I only had about a teaspoon at a time about three times a day of ghee, and I can't describe the comfort and healing it brought me!! So that amount was pretty powerful for me. Not to say that this amount would be all someone else would need at all, but I just wanted to say that it was extremely beneficial to me! Actually, taking a capsule might not have worked for the esophagus anyway. (smile) Reminds me, I need to make some ghee right now!
Posted by: TJ, Sunday, January 29, 2012, 12:04am; Reply: 55
Quoted from Chloe
With celiac disease, or gluten allergy, the body exhibits an immune response in the small intestine whenever gluten protein is present. Such a reaction aggravates the intestinal lining and damages the little "hairs" (villi) covering the wall of the digestive tract. In properly functioning organs, these villi will help push food along the intestinal tube while aiding in the absorption of nutrients into the bloodstream. In patients with celiac disease, this absorption process is impeded and can lead to cases of rapid weight loss and eventual malnutrition if left untreated.
You are right, of course.  I just need to accept it.  Gluten is not good for me in any amount, from any source.

Quoted from ABJoe
Lyme spirochetes travel from the site of the bite to anywhere in the body via the skin, lymph system, and blood. They can ultimately cause problems in all body systems.

...Maybe I've been denial...  I have had and continue to have almost all of these symptoms...
Me too, Joe.  I suppose it makes sense that if it can go everywhere else, why not there, too?

Quoted from DoS
TJ is everything well digested that goes through you?
No, not everything, but very little comes out recognizable.

Quoted from DoS
Please try soy lecithin with your fats, just eat a spoonful with fats. Try to get B vitamins in the same meal; but make it breakfast or lunch.

Your diet is not high on choline, essential for liver fat digestion. People usually get it from eggs and soy, which you don't eat.

I understand your frustration. I have come to the conclusion that when no results are being seen there are a couple possibilities, allergies are completely halting function or something isn't being digested. A lot of things are fat soluble, just to say.
This is the best thing to come out of this discussion so far.  Your suggestion about choline was of great value.  I just did some reading about choline on the Linus Pauling Institute website.  There's no way I'm getting enough choline in my diet.

The page on choline mentioned folate as a related nutrient, so I read up on that, too.  My multivitamin contains the recommended 400 mcg, but Lamictal (which I take daily) inhibits folate absorption.  If you're on Lamictal the recommended daily intake of folic acid goes up to 5 mg.  This was news to me.  So, there's also no way I'm getting enough folate, either.  I'm going out to buy these two supplements as soon as I finish posting this reply.

Quoted from Spring
One thing for sure, you have been a tremendous support to a lot of people on this forum with your active interest in trying to help them. There is a lot to be said for empathetic people, but I think your understanding goes a lot farther than that because of your own situation.  In my book you are a hero!
Agreed.  You are a priceless contributor here, Joe.
Posted by: ABJoe, Sunday, January 29, 2012, 1:57am; Reply: 56
TJ,

Do you use any nutritional yeast?  It has both choline and folic acid in it, as well as many other amino acids and minerals...

I recently started taking a small dose and it has stimulated significant detox...  The last week I've felt like my whole sinus area is on fire for about an hour after taking it - but I look at that as a good thing...  Maybe I'll finally burn all of the sinus drug remains (I lived on Sinus Tylenol for 10-15 yrs.) out of there so I can breathe through my nose regularly again...
Posted by: TJ, Sunday, January 29, 2012, 2:10am; Reply: 57
The biggest dose of folic acid I could find was 1 mg.  Starting tomorrow, I will take 2 mg at breakfast and at lunch.  Taking it at night seems like a waste since that's when I take the Lamictal.  I also got some soy lecithin granules.  I used to love the "membrane fluidizer cocktail", but soy lecithin has been a black dot for me in SWAMI so I quit using it.  Since I don't eat eggs, I've got to get my choline from something else.  In my mind, that elevates soy lecithin granules at least up to neutral.

This has prompted me to wonder if there are other basic vitamins and minerals I'm not getting enough of.  Maybe it will be time to lay of the herbs and other non-essentials and focus on getting the basics right and getting what remaining gluten I can out of my diet.  I'm going to do a careful review of the suggestions on the Linus Pauling website to see if I need more of any other vitamins and minerals listed there.
Posted by: TJ, Sunday, January 29, 2012, 2:15am; Reply: 58
Joe, I've never tried nutritional yeast.  I worry about the glutamate in it.
Posted by: Spring, Sunday, January 29, 2012, 5:12am; Reply: 59
TJ, you can take choline in pills. It is usually paired with inositol. I have been making sure I got enough of both for decades. Lecithin is a neutral for me, but I still take a very small amount every day.
Posted by: JJR, Sunday, January 29, 2012, 6:56am; Reply: 60
I've read this whole thread and this is what I have to throw out there.

#1.  I have read and understand that lymes can mess with your gut.  It creates an environment for biofilms.  It lowers your immunity, thus creating a disturbance in your gut flora.  Or an imbalance.  Therefore yeast can proliferate, among other things I would imagine.  That's how I understand it.

#2.  I had a stint where I was on heart medicine for about a month and a half.  What was that, like 3 years ago.  There was no doubt in my mind it created a less than stellar environment in my gut.  I needed more supps that kill gut bugs.  And my tongue was whiter than other times.  If you take pharma drugs on a regular basis, it will more than likely have a negative affect on your gut.  Starting with your PH.  

#3.  I would suggest a colonoscopy.  They'll tell you if your villi is screwed up.  If it is, than you know wheat or gluten is a problem.  If it's not, it might not be as big a deal as something else.  Having said that, I think there is a lot of information out there saying how wheat grown today is modified, it's not what it used to be, and it is not good for most of us.  Even if we're not sensitive.  Sooner or later it might get any one of us.  In some form or another.  Look how many people are diabetic.  I think it has an impact on that.  That's purely my opinion, but I came by it by reading what some experts had to say.  Whether they are completely right or not, I don't know.  What a colonoscopy wont tell you is really what you're struggle is if it's on microbial level.  They're kind of clueless about all that.  Just a warning if you do get one.

#4.  I don't care who you are, most of us have some kind of trauma, or emotional thing to clean up.  The fact is, most of us grew up in imperfect homes.  Because our parents were imperfect.  I'm not saying they were bad people.  And Lord knows some are better than others.  But regardless of all that, nobody is perfect, and there is nothing wrong with trying to understand how to better your emotional and spiritual state.  Because it WILL affect the physical.  It all goes together.  At least that's how I understand that also.  Furthermore, we carry a genetic code, that can affect us.  Both your parents might be strong as oxes.  Or, you might have some problems that your parents have.  Or, you might have some problems that your granparents had.  On and on and on.  I've been told about MIASMS by more than one practitioner, and I think there's something to that.  Along with just plain ole physical genetics.  We are not the Arian race that Hitler wanted.  The perfect specimen I am for sure not.  Even though I have some German in me.   hehehhehehe

#5.  Worrying about it, fixating about it, and delving into our problems to the degree that we do, doesn't help.  I hate to say it but I'm pretty convinced that sometimes the more I focus on my problems, the worse they are going to be.  And I'm not taking a soap box on this, I'm saying I'm learning that lesson.  I've been shown that yes, my body doesn't work as well as it should at times.  But when I focus on it, even if to trying to find ways to overcome it, sometimes creates a mental state of perpetualness of the physical problems.  And I'm as guilty as anyone at this or more.  So, I'm not preaching, I'm just saying.  But you MAY fit into that category as well.  Maybe not, but I'm just throwing it out there.

But just know, anything I said above is said in a respectful way and you are not alone.  I'm in the trenches with you.  I hit 121 last night praise God.  But believe me, every day is a struggle as to know how to heal.  Just ask Joe, he's heard me whine enough about it.  hehehhe  Right Joe!!  But yeah, it's so great to have friends on here we can talk to.

You'll get better.  You'll get better.  When, who knows, but you will.
Posted by: TJ, Sunday, January 29, 2012, 7:36am; Reply: 61
Quoted from JJR
#3.  I would suggest a colonoscopy.  They'll tell you if your villi is screwed up.  If it is, than you know wheat or gluten is a problem.  If it's not, it might not be as big a deal as something else.  Having said that, I think there is a lot of information out there saying how wheat grown today is modified, it's not what it used to be, and it is not good for most of us.
No insurance, no colonoscopy.  Not now, anyway.  FYI by no means do I intend to start eating wheat again!  The closest I'd dare come is spelt, and it seems that was a bad idea, too.  Like I said, I'll get rid of gluten and traces of wheat where I can.  However, I can't help it if there is some in my medications.  And I'm sure not going to quit eating all the wonderful nuts I can buy at Costco that say "may contain traces of..."  I can't afford to.  If even traces of gluten caused a noticeable reaction, I'd be more concerned and cautious.  You have to pick your battles.

Quoted from JJR
#5.  Worrying about it, fixating about it, and delving into our problems to the degree that we do, doesn't help.  I hate to say it but I'm pretty convinced that sometimes the more I focus on my problems, the worse they are going to be.  And I'm not taking a soap box on this, I'm saying I'm learning that lesson.  I've been shown that yes, my body doesn't work as well as it should at times.  But when I focus on it, even if to trying to find ways to overcome it, sometimes creates a mental state of perpetualness of the physical problems.  And I'm as guilty as anyone at this or more.  So, I'm not preaching, I'm just saying.  But you MAY fit into that category as well.  Maybe not, but I'm just throwing it out there.
I only find myself obsessing about my health when I don't feel healthy.  If anything, I should take more care, instead of going into denial every day that I wake up feeling well rested, energetic, and not in pain.  When I feel sick and I think about it and focus my attention on it, it helps me figure out what to do next.  But pointless worrying will only make thing worse.

Quoted from JJR
But just know, anything I said above is said in a respectful way and you are not alone.  I'm in the trenches with you.  I hit 121 last night praise God.  But believe me, every day is a struggle as to know how to heal.  Just ask Joe, he's heard me whine enough about it.  hehehhe  Right Joe!!  But yeah, it's so great to have friends on here we can talk to.

You'll get better.  You'll get better.  When, who knows, but you will.
"And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:" - Job 19:26.

It will all get better eventually.  I hope I get some improvement before then!  It is good to have other people to commiserate with.  Thanks for your thoughts. 8)
Posted by: TJ, Sunday, January 29, 2012, 7:39am; Reply: 62
I've already made some progress in my micronutrient studies.  Thus far, I've identified a need for more folic acid, more choline, and less :o magnesium.  I've been supplementing with 400 mg of magnesium per day.  I think I started in December, up from 200 mg.

Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) for Supplemental Magnesium

Adults 19 years and older - 350 mg
More to come.
Posted by: DoS, Sunday, January 29, 2012, 8:58pm; Reply: 63
The Nomad Catalyst has choline in it. You can get it from other sources. I was just thinking it is an emulsifier so it would help you digest the fats in stomach and in liver. At this point I think it is totally worth getting choline by any means.

You must not be making enough stomach acid. HCL is an option. This probably has a lot to do with stress levels (same thing happens to me). When I take enough HCL and eat a bunch of complex carbohydrates I get a little bit of a body high and can sort of make up for all the not-relaxed feeling I have when trying to relax.

Consider a Zinc, calcium, magnesium supplement over just magnesium. They work together, and people with long term infection issues always end up low on zinc. 400mg is a lot of magnesium, too much to take at one given time for almost anyone. The reason is that it makes things move too fast. Having a lesser dose combined with zinc and calcium, a few times day, may serve you much better. (and help keep immunity up) You may find the combination does a lot, where as taking just magnesium does little.

Ideally you would get all that stuff from food, but not if you are not processing fats properly, and especially if you don't have the stomach acid to do it. Then combine it with being short from long term problems that unfortunately nurture back better than just slamming with high doses. Even Dr. D likes to do supplements at the minimum amount for the highest effectiveness.
Posted by: C_Sharp, Sunday, January 29, 2012, 9:38pm; Reply: 64
Quoted from TJ
but soy lecithin has been a black dot for me in SWAMI


Have you checked since Jan 16th?  The values changed in the SWAMI Genotype edition for some people on that date, I presume they also changed in the SWAMI Xpress edition.
Posted by: TJ, Sunday, January 29, 2012, 9:48pm; Reply: 65
I haven't had floating poo lately.  Should I still be concerned about fat absorption?  I also supplement with zinc, but I prefer not to use supplemental calcium.  Bs absorb calcium very efficiently, and calcium competes with magnesium which is more challenging for Bs.

Quoted from C_Sharp
Have you checked since Jan 16th?  The values changed in the SWAMI Genotype edition for some people on that date, I presume they also changed in the SWAMI Xpress edition.
I just reran it yesterday.  Still a black dot.
Posted by: Christopher1, Sunday, January 29, 2012, 10:15pm; Reply: 66
Have you considered heavy metal toxicity?
Posted by: ABJoe, Sunday, January 29, 2012, 10:15pm; Reply: 67
Quoted from TJ
Joe, I've never tried nutritional yeast.  I worry about the glutamate in it.

Where does it rate on your SWAMI?
Posted by: DoS, Sunday, January 29, 2012, 10:22pm; Reply: 68
Quoted from TJ
I haven't had floating poo lately.  Should I still be concerned about fat absorption?  I also supplement with zinc, but I prefer not to use supplemental calcium.  Bs absorb calcium very efficiently, and calcium competes with magnesium which is more challenging for Bs.

I just reran it yesterday.  Still a black dot.


Floating poo is not a good indicator of too much for various reasons. One it assumes your poo is large and full of moisture (and very regular), next it has nothing to do with processing fats in the liver. I wouldn't bother with considering it.

I see no reason why not to do separate calcium with zinc and magnesium except some come with HCL combined in the pill for better absorption. Frankly I doubt you have been absorbing calcium too well. I would expect potentially strange results from taking any of them by themselves. Zinc is not fun to have too much of it, and yet not too effective without the counter parts in someone who has been digesting poorly.

Anyway it seems like you have a little bit of direction to try, less worrying, more doing stuff that makes you feel good as your body tries its best.
Posted by: akolley, Monday, January 30, 2012, 4:03pm; Reply: 69
intrinsa has been my manna from heaven.  thanks Dr. D! :K)
Posted by: TJ, Monday, January 30, 2012, 8:13pm; Reply: 70
Quoted from Christopher1
Have you considered heavy metal toxicity?
Yes.  Doesn't seem likely in my situation.

Quoted from ABJoe
Where does it rate on your SWAMI?
Diamond.  Just like numerous dairy products, onions, and spinach....

Quoted from DoS
I see no reason why not to do separate calcium with zinc and magnesium except some come with HCL combined in the pill for better absorption. Frankly I doubt you have been absorbing calcium too well. I would expect potentially strange results from taking any of them by themselves. Zinc is not fun to have too much of it, and yet not too effective without the counter parts in someone who has been digesting poorly.
I've reconsidered calcium.  This page was an eye-opener!  http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/calcium/  When I tried supplemental calcium before, I was eating lots a dairy.  Now, not so much -- only butter, ghee, and sour cream.  It seems that calcium supplementation will be a good idea after all.

Quoted from DoS
Anyway it seems like you have a little bit of direction to try, less worrying, more doing stuff that makes you feel good as your body tries its best.
Yes, this has been a helpful discussion!
Posted by: DoS, Monday, January 30, 2012, 10:48pm; Reply: 71
My biceps are nicer after taking choline, by the way. They are more dense (too bad no one will know since I'm fat). If you are exercising it may help a lot for muscle development (seems like a goal of yours?).
Posted by: Marc121, Tuesday, January 31, 2012, 4:26am; Reply: 72
Quoted from TJ
.  My fingerprints (heck, the whole palm side of my fingers) are still shot through with lines and the ridges are low.  I'm very thin, have low muscle strength, still struggle with fatigue, nd I still react badly to eggs and dairy proteins; all of which suggests that my gut is still in need of substantial healing.



How will you know how healthy your gut is with this?
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, January 31, 2012, 6:20pm; Reply: 73
Quoted from DoS
My biceps are nicer after taking choline, by the way. They are more dense (too bad no one will know since I'm fat). If you are exercising it may help a lot for muscle development (seems like a goal of yours?).
It is.

Quoted from Marc121
How will you know how healthy your gut is with this?
Good question.  My fingerprints should recover, for one thing.  I expect myself to find eggs and dairy protein tolerance again.  AFAIK, most food sensitivities are because some of the proteins escape through the small intestinal wall into the blood before being completely digested.  Those undigested protein are not supposed to be in circulation and provoke autoimmunity and maybe interfere with aspects of metabolism.
Posted by: Marc121, Wednesday, February 1, 2012, 1:12pm; Reply: 74
Quoted from TJ


Good question.  My fingerprints should recover, for one thing.  I expect myself to find eggs and dairy protein tolerance again.  AFAIK, most food sensitivities are because some of the proteins escape through the small intestinal wall into the blood before being completely digested.  Those undigested protein are not supposed to be in circulation and provoke autoimmunity and maybe interfere with aspects of metabolism.


I see. I`m sort of interested in this one.
How will I now mine with fingerprints? :)
Posted by: Spring, Wednesday, February 1, 2012, 3:08pm; Reply: 75
Fingerprints will reveal white lines if they are present. If you look at your fingers where the fingerprints are made, and they look as if they have been slashed lightly with a knife, then you know that those slashes will more than likely appear as white lines on your fingerprints.
Posted by: Marc121, Friday, February 3, 2012, 1:26pm; Reply: 76
Quoted from Spring
Fingerprints will reveal white lines if they are present. If you look at your fingers where the fingerprints are made, and they look as if they have been slashed lightly with a knife, then you know that those slashes will more than likely appear as white lines on your fingerprints.



I saw some in my right thumb its like a short wrinkle like a cut of a knife it looks plain color flesh. How white are you talking about?
Posted by: Spring, Friday, February 3, 2012, 1:42pm; Reply: 77
If you actually do a fingerprint it will show up as a white line. Lines don't appear white on your finger.
Posted by: TJ, Friday, February 3, 2012, 8:21pm; Reply: 78
Quoted from Spring
If you actually do a fingerprint it will show up as a white line. Lines don't appear white on your finger.
...and they will only be white if you're taking the prints on something white. ;)

Quoted from Marc121
I saw some in my right thumb its like a short wrinkle like a cut of a knife it looks plain color flesh. How white are you talking about?
This is something I've wondered about, too.  I have creases all through my fingerprints.  This is what I'm talking about here:
Quoted from TJ
My fingerprints (heck, the whole palm side of my fingers) are still shot through with lines and the ridges are low.
When considering fingerprints in the context of intestinal health, are low fingerprint ridges the only meaningful cause for the white lines, or do these skin creases also count?
Posted by: Spring, Friday, February 3, 2012, 9:16pm; Reply: 79
When considering fingerprints in the context of intestinal health, are low fingerprint ridges the only meaningful cause for the white lines, or do these skin creases also count? I don't know about that, but I have noticed that when my fingers slip all the time when I am trying to turn a page, I can be assured that I am going to have white lines. The slipping fingers means the ridges are very shallow!
Posted by: Possum, Saturday, February 4, 2012, 3:20am; Reply: 80
Quoted from Spring
I don't know about that, but I have noticed that when my fingers slip all the time when I am trying to turn a page, I can be assured that I am going to have white lines. The slipping fingers means the ridges are very shallow!
Interesting & makes sense!!

Posted by: TJ, Saturday, February 4, 2012, 7:41am; Reply: 81
Quoted from Spring
I don't know about that, but I have noticed that when my fingers slip all the time when I am trying to turn a page, I can be assured that I am going to have white lines. The slipping fingers means the ridges are very shallow!
I don't have this problem but my dad does.  You can barely see his fingerprints.

I ordered a fingerprinting pad today.  It's time to take my prints again -- the right way this time -- and see what they look like.  I will probably scan them and put up a link so others can give their opinions on their condition.
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, February 7, 2012, 12:44am; Reply: 82
I got the pad today and took my prints.  The "white lines" I see are creases/skin folds.  The actual ridges seem to be in pretty good shape.

I don't have a scanner some it may take a while to get an image up, if at all. :(
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, February 7, 2012, 12:56am; Reply: 83
Seems I spoke too soon.  I found this from Dr. D which clarifies what white lines are.
Ridge height appears to be linked to many of the same cell processes that control glycosylation in the gut. Proper ridge height equates with a patent digestive track, while a worn appearance may signal digestive problems. Known as ridge hypoplasia, this is a situation in which the fingerprint ridges are reduced in height, giving them a “worn-off” appearance. These areas of worn off ridges are also covered with an unusual number of fine secondary creases that become visible, producing what are called “white lines.”


My prints indeed look like the print on the right.  So the question, "Why hasn't my gut healed yet?" is still the right one to be asking.
Posted by: Christopher1, Tuesday, February 7, 2012, 1:37am; Reply: 84
Mycotoxins and heavy metals, I think. I would supplement with charcoal and chlorella/cilantro combo.
Posted by: Marc121, Tuesday, February 7, 2012, 1:55am; Reply: 85
So this is what i looks like. My Dad and mom has that.
I have one ridge on the right middle thumb its a short one.
The other two short ridges is on the left thumb.

Am I on the average level?

Sorry for hi jacking your thread TJ.
Posted by: ABJoe, Tuesday, February 7, 2012, 2:29am; Reply: 86
Quoted from TJ
So the question, "Why hasn't my gut healed yet?" is still the right one to be asking.

On page 73 of "The Genotype Diet",
Quoted Text
... shows a correlation between the appearance of white lines and celiac disease.  Typically, the number of white lines increases with age as gut integrity continues to deteriorate.  In many cases, these white lines begin to vanish with the maintenance of a gluten-free diet.

Posted by: AKArtlover, Wednesday, February 8, 2012, 7:40pm; Reply: 87
really random stuff that popped into my head

ubiquinol -- for some reason, i think this really improved my prints

colonics
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Wednesday, February 8, 2012, 8:54pm; Reply: 88
TJ, who says your gut hasn't healed a lot already? Perhaps your fingerprints were even worse a couple of years ago. Yes, you still have a lot of healing to do, but that's not the same as saying you haven't healed at all yet.
Posted by: JJR, Thursday, February 9, 2012, 1:58am; Reply: 89
I think ruthie is right.  I still have white lines, but I can tell you my gut has improved.  Is it optimal?  Probably not so.  Why?  I think it's a very complex subject.  I'm not sure it has completely to do with gluten or not.  And then is it any kind of gluten or not?  Like I eat oats and they have gluten in them.  And then there is the kind of gluten that cross contaminates from being in the same factory.  But oats have their own gluten.  Am I going to stop eating them?  No.  They're a diamond.  And they make me feel good.  Although I do have to say I believe rice is the better grain for me at times.  But then there are times when I feel like I really need oats.  But I've bought the gluten free oats from Bob's Red Mill and I think I might notice that they actually feel better than the non gluten free oats.  So, there may be something to that.  Although I'm not going to abandon regular oats because the gluten free MIGHT sit better a bit.  Because really I don't know for sure if it's that or not.  I really am trying to learn to not blame my food for every ailment I have.  I think we can get to the point where this happens.  Do they have an affect.  Of course, but I think I ended up taking that notion too far.  Food is good.  Even foods that we think MIGHT be messing with us, really MIGHT not be, and we're avoiding just to avoid because it MIGHT be a good idea.  I'm not saying I think wheat is great.  It's not.  But I am saying, lets be careful about how much we blame food and to what extent it has had on our GI tract.  It's possible, that just getting older is messing with our guts.  It's possible that some kind of disease, like lymes disease is messing with our guts.  It's possible that heavy metals are messing with our guts.  It's possible that H.Pylori or some other unwanted thing like crypto spurridium is messing with our guts.  ON and on.  I think avoiding gluten or problem foods may help address these issues, but again, I think I've taken it too far.  Or, maybe not.  Maybe all my strict adherence has actually been to my benefit, and I just don't realize it.  That's possible too.   ;D
Posted by: TJ, Saturday, February 11, 2012, 1:13am; Reply: 90
Quoted from Marc121
So this is what i looks like. My Dad and mom has that.
I have one ridge on the right middle thumb its a short one.
The other two short ridges is on the left thumb.

Am I on the average level?

Sorry for hi jacking your thread TJ.
NP Marc.  I don't think you have much to worry about with only three small ridges, but I could be wrong.  (I'm assuming that you mean creases or lines when you say ridges.  If you can only see 3 of the lines on your whole fingerprint, that is bad. :o)  I don't have any idea what is considered average!  I have several creases/lines on every print.  My right hand prints seem to be slightly worse than the left.

Quoted from ruthiegirl
TJ, who says your gut hasn't healed a lot already? Perhaps your fingerprints were even worse a couple of years ago. Yes, you still have a lot of healing to do, but that's not the same as saying you haven't healed at all yet.
I'm sure there has been some healing, but I'd have expected a lot better after this time.

Quoted from JJR
I really am trying to learn to not blame my food for every ailment I have.  I think we can get to the point where this happens....

...It's possible that some kind of disease, like lymes disease is messing with our guts.  It's possible that heavy metals are messing with our guts.  It's possible that H.Pylori or some other unwanted thing like crypto spurridium is messing with our guts.  ON and on.  I think avoiding gluten or problem foods may help address these issues, but again, I think I've taken it too far.  Or, maybe not.  Maybe all my strict adherence has actually been to my benefit, and I just don't realize it.  That's possible too.;D
Yes.  That's what I'm getting at.  It doesn't make any sense to me to suggest that gluten is the only problem.  There is absolutely something else in play that diet may help but won't fix.
Posted by: JJR, Sunday, February 12, 2012, 12:58am; Reply: 91
Absolutely.  
Posted by: TJ, Sunday, February 12, 2012, 2:53am; Reply: 92
A friend of mine posted some old pictures on FB today.  He was one of my youth leaders at church.  The pics were from 1991 when I was 15.  Now 15 year old boys tend to be scrawny, but even compared to the others, I looked sickly, pale, skinny, and soft (poor muscle tone).  This really has been going on a long time.
Posted by: JJR, Monday, February 13, 2012, 5:58pm; Reply: 93
Are you an ectomorph?  I am.  I can wrap my fingers around my wrist and overlap them.  I was always pretty thing growing up.  But I think that's OK for some of us.  
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 8:25am; Reply: 94
Quoted from JJR
Are you an ectomorph?  I am.  I can wrap my fingers around my wrist and overlap them.  I was always pretty thing growing up.  But I think that's OK for some of us.  
I am SO an ectomorph.  I've met people whose wrists are bigger than to biggest part of my forearm.

So.  I had a sort of melt-down on the 7th:
Quoted from Facebook
Friends, let me tell you something. I'm sick of living in crappy apartments. I'm sick of driving crappy cars. I'm sick of not having the money to fix them when they break down, and not (consistently) having the ability to do the repairs myself. I'm sick of not knowing how I'm going to pay for the next tank of gas, the next month's rent, the next refill on my phone, or the next trip to the grocery store.

I'm sick of not being able to depend on my own mind to remember things or to work through hard problems. I'm sick of not being able to depend on my body to work and do things that need to be done. I'm sick of my brain staying stressed out over things I can't control. I'm sick of being a scrawny, tired weakling. I'm sick of being oversensitive to foods and stress and chemicals and allergens. I'm sick of not getting better results from everything I've done to get healthy.

I'm sick of not knowing when it's going to get better. I'm sick of being in pain -- body, mind, and heart. I'm sick of not knowing what's wrong with me, and not knowing how to fix it, and not even knowing if it *can* be fixed. I sick of knowing that I probably can't afford whatever it's going to take.

I'm sick of putting on a good face even when I'm not okay. I'm so very sick of being in this miserable place and not being able to do anything about it.

I don't know what to do about any of this, and I don't expect any of you to know, either, but maybe it will help just knowing that *you know* -- and that you know I'm not just lazy, deluded, or dishonest; that you know that I'm doing the best I can, but I don't have much to work with; that I've never had much to work with and it's just getting worse.
It finally hit home that I've done everything I can possibly do for myself, and that I had to get help from somebody else if I was going to make progress.  I don't like asking for help.  I don't want to be a burden on other people.  But what else can I do?  This is too big for me.  I can't make further progress by my own efforts.  I can't afford to pay for help out of my own pocket, and I don't expect to be able to until I'm well enough that I don't need the help so desperately, so I talked to one of my church leaders yesterday, who is responsible for welfare in my congregation.  He gave me some direction, that I needed to make a Dr. appointment and get a referral, and bring it to him.  He also wants my family to help however they can, so I talked to mom and gave her the phone number of the other guy (Craig).  (My family is in financial straits so I haven't asked them for the help I need, since I've already asked for so much in the past.)  I'm seeing Craig again on Wednesday, and managed to get an appointment to see my practitioner tomorrow.

I can't explain what a relief it is to finally have the ball rolling, however slowly.  My foolish pride has kept me from reaching out to those who love me to get the help I need and can't provide for myself.  Now that I have brought in those people to a degree, and can see good things happening in the near future, I feel like a great burden has back taken off my back.
Posted by: Possum, Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 9:25am; Reply: 95
Glad you are feeling already better about all this TJ  ;)
Posted by: Spring, Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:26pm; Reply: 96
TJ, oh my, you have worked so hard, so long, on your own, to make your recovery work even to your own hurt! Many others would have asked for help long ago! I know the ray of light you are seeing would have to be overwhelming almost. I was just reading Ribbit's post a few minutes ago about holding things in......Human beings were not made to suffer in such dreadful silence! From your description of your surroundings I can't help but wonder how much mold and gas fumes you could possibly be exposed to day in and day out. If I had to endure an overload of such an environment, I wouldn't live long. Mold could be dealt with but the gas fumes would be another story. It could be from your car or from heating your apartment. Hopefully, you don't have either of these problems, though, because it would be hard for you to deal with them on your own without some help. I'm hoping for the very best outcome from your cry for help.
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:34pm; Reply: 97
TJ- I can totally relate to how you're feeling. I've swallowed my pride more times than I care to remember asking my Mom for financial assistance- with the kids, with the car, and just to bail me out of credit card debt when IMO it was just my own stupidity letting it build up in the first place (but always when I didn't get the expected child support, and I kept on buying like normal instead of cutting my expenses even more to the bone or asking for direct help when something really couldn't wait. I have no problem staying in budget when I actually GET the $200 a month he's supposed to give me!)

I'm glad you've asked for help. Remember that all things really come from God, and sometimes He wants us to do something other than what we've been doing. Maybe He wants you to be less prideful and more willing to rely on others. There's always a lesson in whatever life throws at us, but we're not always open to learning it.
Posted by: JJR, Thursday, February 16, 2012, 12:33am; Reply: 98
Yeah TJ.  I'm praying for you.  And I can totally sympathize.  Having health challenges can be very daunting on the physical and mental.  And then of course emotional and spiritual.  And I'm sure it's especially challenging when going it alone.  I pray that you have a wonderful support team, in the flesh, and not just on line.  And one that has been down the road.  I found a lot of people when I first started having challenges, couldn't relate and didn't want to.  They were people I ran around with when healthy and had lots of energy.  They didn't understand, and they weren't very compassionate.  And they were mostly church people.  So it was extra hurtful.  I had given myself to the music ministry in my church for over 5 years.  Serving consistently, joyfully, spending much time and effort. Saturdays and Sundays 3 or 4 times a month.  Sometimes I was the only one playing drums for a couple of years, unless I went on vacation.  Then there was a stint I was the only bass player for a year or so.  And when I got sick, they kept pushing me.  And I felt like "what have you done for me lately" type thing.  What I needed was support.  Here I'd given a good bit of time and effort to the church and when my health started to fail, they pushed, prodded, questioned and somewhat abandoned me.  It was tough.

I'm sorry, I'm not meaning to turn this into a "me" thing.  I'm just saying when I read your post, I was like, yep.  I totally get it.  And I'm glad you made steps to ask for help.  You may not get perfect help.  And it may not be exactly the way you want it, but hopefully it will at least be "helpful" to a degree.  Hopefully there will be someone that comes along side that has had some experience with health problems.  Those people are typically the most compassionate for others with health problems.  At least that's how it's been for me.  I get people coming up to me at church saying, I know such and such who's struggled with Lyme's Disease and they have a sense of how hard it can be on a person, because they saw someone they know get their butt whooped by it.  And they are completely compassionate to me.  It's very comforting and I'm grateful to God for those people.  Even for just their little bit of care and encouragement.  No matter how small or quick at the end of service or whatever.  We need to be that for other people too that are struggling.  Because everyone struggles with something.  It's not always health stuff.  I'm not saying we need to be out there if we don't have the energy to, but to just keep others in mind.   Which reminds me, I'm due for writing someone in my church an encouraging letter. I need to do that.

Posted by: DoS, Thursday, February 16, 2012, 1:32am; Reply: 99
I know it sounds silly but... I imagine it is something simple, yet overlooked.

Can we see any pictures, just out of curiosity?
Posted by: ABJoe, Thursday, February 16, 2012, 1:36am; Reply: 100
TJ,

I hope your practitioner really helps you...  It is one thing to spend the money and get results, quite another when you spend the money and end up worse than when you started...

Much success to you in your quest for wellness.
Posted by: TJ, Thursday, February 16, 2012, 2:18am; Reply: 101
Again, thank you all for your support.  I love that I can come here and know that I'll find people who get it, who understand what I'm dealing with!  My NP gave me two referrals.  One was to the University of Utah medical something-or-other, infectious diseases department?  The second, I brought in myself, for a LLND in Provo who does integrative medicine with a couple other practitioners from other disciplines (one of them MD).  My NP knew the MD and said that she wouldn't work with this group unless they were doing something right, so he gave me that one a a referral also.  I'll be heading out in a few minutes to meet with my church leader again this evening.

Quoted from DoS
I know it sounds silly but... I imagine it is something simple, yet overlooked.

Can we see any pictures, just out of curiosity?
Are you talking about the fingerprints?
Posted by: TJ, Monday, March 12, 2012, 3:23am; Reply: 102
Here's my new thread on the topic: http://www.dadamo.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?m-1331522511/
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