Print Topic - Archive

BTD Forums  /  The GenoType Diet  /  Milk and Hunters
Posted by: Joeyy, Wednesday, September 21, 2011, 12:40pm
Is there any hunters or other O's that do ok on Milk?

The reason I ask is.... Since giving up milk I have found that my muscles are so much more tired whenever I go for a run. I was far much better off energy wise when drinking milk and exercising. Also, I have noticed that the dark circles around my eyes are alot more visible.

I have been eating alot of almonds, brocolli and green leafy vegetables but I still don't feel I'm getting enough calcium to help my muscles function properly. I'm very suspicious about taking suppliments tablets for anything.

Any advice or opinions?
Posted by: Patty H, Wednesday, September 21, 2011, 12:50pm; Reply: 1
How about an epsolm salts bath, which is loaded with magnesium.  Maybe your aching muscles are craving magnesium instead of calcium?
Posted by: Joeyy, Wednesday, September 21, 2011, 1:02pm; Reply: 2
I'm eating foods high in Magnesium - Tuna, Almonds, Spinach, other vegetbales, fruit

It's amazing that foods high in magnesium are not allowed on the Hunter list such as wheat, lentils, soya, yoghurt, milk, legumes, Avocado etc

I'm starting to think maybe this diet is too restrictive, especially if people are resulting in taking suppliments to get the recommended vitimins and minerals
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Wednesday, September 21, 2011, 1:07pm; Reply: 3
Are you drinking bone broths? How about  eating canned fish with the bones? You can also drink herbal infusions for calcium and other minerals- you get the minerals in a more consistant and absorbable form than just from eating a lot of greens.  http://www.herbcompanion.com/health/supplement-calcium-with-herbal-tea.aspx

There are ways to add calcium to the diet that don't involve dairy products.
Posted by: Lloyd, Wednesday, September 21, 2011, 3:33pm; Reply: 4
Quoted from Joeyy


I'm starting to think maybe this diet is too restrictive, especially if people are resulting in taking suppliments to get the recommended vitimins and minerals


Some people don't like eating enough vegetables. Or some other thing they don't like.

Some people suffer malabsorption issues.

Some health conditions benefit from supplementation above the normal minimums.

Some people like to supplement even though they don't need to.
Posted by: Andrea AWsec, Wednesday, September 21, 2011, 3:45pm; Reply: 5
Why the concern over calcium?

Calcium is not absorbed from milk particularly in hunters. :-/
Posted by: balletomane, Wednesday, September 21, 2011, 3:58pm; Reply: 6
Eat lean red meat  ;)
Posted by: Mark, Wednesday, September 21, 2011, 6:02pm; Reply: 7
Calcium is always a bit of a problem in the type O diet. Dr. D mentions this in ER4YT.

You can try adding blackstrap molasses to any meal with red meat. Blackstrap molasses have more calcium than dairy, and the IAP (an enzyme high in O's) from the meal will help you absorb the calcium you need.

Blackstrap molasses are also very high in other minerals, and not too high in sugar, though some people believe the presence of iron in the molasses prevents the absorption of calcium. I don't know if this is the case for O's.

This is what I've been doing, personally. You can also get the maerl seaweed from NAP (a supplement).
Posted by: yvonneb, Wednesday, September 21, 2011, 7:05pm; Reply: 8
Quoted from Andrea AWsec

Calcium is not absorbed from milk particularly in hunters. :-/


Ideal calcium to magnesium ratio is 2:1, milk's ratio is 10:1
Milk is designed for baby calves, not adult humans.

All above advise is good, I'd also cut out gluten grains- they sure make me feel sluggish and give me sugar craving which would not be good to eat for your muscles : )

Let us know how you get on!

Good luck!
Posted by: Green Root, Wednesday, September 21, 2011, 8:40pm; Reply: 9
...although many people in Finland like raw unpasteurized milk... of course its nutrients are far better than with pasteurization. Some O type people are not that sensitive to see that milk of good quality was bad for them.

I personally have always liked only good butter and some cheeses - that SWAMI allows for me :)
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Wednesday, September 21, 2011, 8:44pm; Reply: 10
Something else I just thought of. You mention having less endurance when exercising since starting the Hunter diet- how can you be sure that it's the lack of milk causing the problem? It might be a temporary "detox" reaction that will go away on its own in a few days or weeks. Or it might be that you're not getting enough of *something* in your diet- but what makes you assume it's the lack of milk or the need for calcium that's causing the problem?

You might not be eating enough total calories, or not enough protien, or not enough carbs. While Os tend to need lower-carb diets than other blood types, it is possible to take it too far and not consume enough grains or starchy vegetables for your own personal needs.
Posted by: 14442 (Guest), Thursday, September 22, 2011, 7:43pm; Reply: 11
Yeah the calcium issue........ important to note Joeyy that pasteurized dairy is pretty much a highly processed junk food...... just food for thought.  Many of my health struggles/weight problems began as a teen on dairy foods so I am strongly against.  
The suggestion of blackstrap molasses is good.  Also a whey isolate recovery shake post workout.  Dairy is such a tiring draggy food.... imo it can almost make you in to an incapacitated stoner.  It is that bad.
Posted by: Munchkin76, Friday, September 23, 2011, 9:21pm; Reply: 12
I agree with Ruthie, could be detox.

But if you still want milk..... Have you tried buffalo milk? It's a diamond on my Hunter Swami. You can get it in 750ml cartons at Waitrose for £2.95 - it's pricey but delicious! I make my own yoghurt with it too  :P
Posted by: Al Ge, Monday, October 3, 2011, 1:32pm; Reply: 13
I had a post nasal drip all my life, and would clear it when I was outside or alone.  However, on long driving trips my wife would be present and found it very objectionable. So when I first started ER4YT and got off of dairy, my wife noticed that I quit having to clear it.  She still mentions the improvement as a positive, and chides me when I cheat and eat ice cream.  Of course a dentist friend of mine told me that ice cream is one of the worst of the junk foods, I still cheat, I'm weak.
For what it's worth,
Al Ge
Posted by: Joeyy, Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 4:42pm; Reply: 14
Well it has been just short of 2 months since I first started this thread and during this time, I am absolutely disgusted with myself for listening and falling for this so called diet.

Shortly after my 1st post I visited my doctor where he thought it would be best to complete a couple of simple tests. He was completely shocked to see how high my cholesteral and blood pressure had shot up and his first response was, "what on earth have you been doing since I last saw you?"... My reply was, I have been following the BTD/GTD for the last 5 months.

Well, since that visit I have done some thorough searching for hours online about the benefits of food, diets, nutritional value, diet researches etc. I came across the "China Study", which I'm sure people have alot to say about. After reading that, it has totally changed my life, especially my health. After 6-7 weeks I re-visited the doctor and my tests are fully back to normal and healthy, just by giving up meat and dairy. While on the GTD I started to notice my skin was becoming dry and dark circles were very visible. I even noticed that my hair was starting to thin rapidly.. All that has been reversed since going vegetarian.. Not to mention my energy levels have shot through the roof.

What makes me angry and that I actually fell for this nonsense of letting finger measurements/prints, leg length, extra molar cusp/teeth shovelling (lol), leg/torso ratio, jaw angle etc, decide what foods I should eat... I'm actually laughing to myself thinking about it. To say that I can't eat kiwi's, strawberry's, grains, legumes, soya, wholewheat and other foods that are on the superfoods list is an absolute disgrace. Not to mention all the money on different tests and suppliments. He must be laughing all the way to the bank!!!

Because of this, I completely ruined my health in the short 5 months of eating saturated fatty, high cholestral, hormoned infected meat and now enjoy a health balanced cholesteral free diet.

I know people here mean well and I'm not angry or moaning at them. I've had some lovely help and advice from such kind people when I seeked advice.. This is just my view of my bad experience.

All the best to everyone and rant over  :B
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 4:48pm; Reply: 15
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with GTD. If you were interested in remaining here, I'd be glad to help you fine-tune your diet and figure out what went wrong. My first question would be to verify your blood type- if you're actually a Type A Warrior, and not a Type O Hunter, then everything else falls into place. The diet reccomended by the China Study is somewhat similar to the Warrior diet, and Hunters and Warriors do have similar physical characteristics (long and lean.)

We're all individuals. You may be a type O with very different physiology than the "typical O." I'm glad you've found a diet that's working well for you, and I wish you continued good health.
Posted by: NancyEllen, Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 4:58pm; Reply: 16
"Because of this, I completely ruined my health in the short 5 months of eating saturated fatty, high cholestral, hormoned infected meat and now enjoy a health balanced cholesteral free diet."


My question for you Joeyy is why were you eating the kind of meat you describe above?  The diet recommends hormone free grass fed beef.  Of course you were getting sick, as we all are from the kind of c**p that is sold in most grocery stores!!
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 5:04pm; Reply: 17
NancyEllen- I can't afford to buy grass-fed meat. I've tried cutting back on meat intake overall, and my health suffers. When I eat "cheap grocery store beef" in adequate quantities (as defined by SWAMI) my energy levels improve and my moods stablize.

Joeyv clearly does not do well on a high meat diet, as evidenced by his rapid turn-around on a vegetarian diet. He's clearly not a Hunter, even if that's how he measured out according to the GTD book. He may have mis-measured, or he may have specific issues that change his genotype in spite of what the charts in the book say. Or he may not even be an O. But to blame his poor health solely on the quality of meat is missing the point.
Posted by: Joeyy, Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 5:16pm; Reply: 18
Hi Ruthie - I recently gave blood which confirmed that I'm 'O' negative.. Regarding the meat situation. Whether it be chicken, lamb, beef, turkey etc.. I always made sure it was the best quality and grass fed.. But as you said, it is more expensive.

I'm eating tons more veggies, legumes, fruits, soya, nuts, seeds, grains, wholewheat bread.. On the vegetarian diet, I'm actually eating more without the digestion problems, gas, bloating and pain. My physique has changed dramatically in regard to shape and tone, without the conern of lose of weight.. I'm delighted!!
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 5:24pm; Reply: 19
I can't help but wonder if you'd do even better if you followed the Type O food lists (no wheat, kidney beans, corn, etc) but continued eating the macronutrient ratios you're doing now (lots of whole grains and beans, little to no animal products.)

You also may find that, over time, the vegerarian diet doesn't feel adequate. You may do well eating small amounts of fish, poultry, and/or red meat- like maybe one portion a week, or a few times a week. Being completely meat-free may  be working well right now, as a kind of detox from "too much meat for you personally" over the past 5 months, but you may need a more moderate omnivorous diet in the long-term.
Posted by: Joeyy, Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 5:38pm; Reply: 20
Right now, I'm feeling real good and sleeping great again. I don't feel the urge to eat meat or fish anymore, but only time will tell... You may be right, but I want to really persevere with this for now.

Another factor in my decision was watching the Earthlings movie and listening to a guy call Gary Yourofsky.. Not my main reason, but it sure helped.

http://www.earthlings.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4
Posted by: Lola, Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 7:14pm; Reply: 21
here s a story, a true story......it changed my way of thinking on the importance of physiology and wellness
http://www.uoregon.edu/~sshapiro/Pemphigus/AboutSteve.html
Steve s story
Posted by: Joeyy, Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 9:33pm; Reply: 22
Thanks Lola.. I remember reading that a while ago.

Like I mentioned earlier.. This is just my experience after trying the GTD and now recovering my health being a vegetarian. I don't see why I would want to experience the troubles again following D'Adamo's advice.. I've got my energy levels, cholesteral, blood pressure, skin, eyes, all back to normal.

Too many many medical professionals don't seem to give much praise to this diet and I think I would rather listen to these people who have actually conducted tests over many years. Until there are long term trial conducted I remain skeptical

But that's just my view
Posted by: Lloyd, Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 9:41pm; Reply: 23
Hi Joeyy,

Good luck to you. Sounds like you know what you want to do.

Lloyd
Posted by: Joeyy, Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 9:45pm; Reply: 24
Thanks Lloyd - appreciate that
Posted by: 14442 (Guest), Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 11:46pm; Reply: 25
Joeyy, also consider the possibility that high cholesterol is not necessarily a bad thing, I've read this is normal for Os.  I never felt normal or well on a vegetarian diet, not mentally or physically.  Something was always "off".  
Posted by: Susana, Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 11:58pm; Reply: 26
Quoted from Joeyy
.... Since giving up milk I have found that my muscles are so much more tired whenever I go for a run. I was far much better off energy wise when drinking milk and exercising.

Quoted from Joeyy
… my doctor… was completely shocked to see how high my cholesteral and blood pressure had shot up

… I came across the "China Study", which I'm sure people have alot to say about. After reading that, it has totally changed my life, especially my health. After 6-7 weeks I re-visited the doctor and my tests are fully back to normal and healthy, just by giving up meat and dairy. While on the GTD I started to notice my skin was becoming dry and dark circles were very visible. I even noticed that my hair was starting to thin rapidly.. All that has been reversed since going vegetarian. Not to mention my energy levels have shot through the roof.

Because of this, I completely ruined my health in the short 5 months of eating saturated fatty, high cholestral, hormoned infected meat and now enjoy a health balanced cholesteral free diet.



Well I am glad you are now doing well without consuming milk.

You may want to read this article from the New England Journal of Medicine: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/359/3/229/F4.  Possibly the most prestigious medical journal and the article on the link, although a one size fits all, concludes that a high saturated fat and meat diet does not necessarily give rise to cholesterol numbers, on the contrary. There are plenty other research studies with the same conclusions. You must be happy to have found out you are an odd one especially being an O.

Would you say the biggest change you have made GTD vs China Study is to change meat consumption for wheat?  If so, quite interesting.

Best wishes on your new health plan.


Posted by: Lola, Wednesday, November 9, 2011, 4:12am; Reply: 27
Quoted Text
I think I would rather listen to these people who have actually conducted tests over many years. Until there are long term trial conducted I remain skeptical


http://www.dadamo.com/B2blogs/blogs/index.php/2010/08/10/other-systems-of-diet-typing?blog=27

Quoted Text
'The disputes about “evidence based medicine and naturopathic treatments” are held on a quite low scientific level.'
-Georg Ivanovas


Quoted Text
'If I have not paid greater attention to my numerous critics, it is not that I have failed to study them ; it is simply that I have remained --obstinately it may be-- convinced that these views expressed are, relatively to our present state of knowledge, substantially correct.' ---
Karl Pearson, The Grammar of Science
Dr D:
"Medicine is, by nature, an inexact science.
So there."


good luck in your journey!
know we will always be here for you ..... :)
if you find that you learn nothing and that the path you are on is the best, then this also serves to strengthen the resolve and confidence in your path.
Posted by: Lola, Wednesday, November 9, 2011, 5:33pm; Reply: 28
read this J,
if you haven t already

http://drpeterjdadamo.com/BAS/2011/11/when-you-point-one-finger-four-usually-point-back-at-you/
Posted by: David, Wednesday, November 9, 2011, 6:23pm; Reply: 29
Joeyy's experience sounds similar to another O Genotype dieter who discovered they have a rare genetic characteristic which has complicated their O GTD experience.

It sounds to me like Joeyy has a history of having previously decided to be a vegetarian and upon experimenting with the decision to attempt an O diet actually fought the idea of eating meat before he took the first bite. I think that is not a new story among O's. Almost every O I have heard of has responded quickly and impressively to the infusion of meat in their diet. It is clear that he really WANTS to be an vegetarian regardless of other's experiences and that is OK. It is also clear that he is following what he feels is his best path. That does seem to be the best way to learn authentic wisdom. Congratulations Joeyy! The mind is a powerful tool and determiner of personal reality. You are taking responsibility for your health and your experience. That is Great!

While I have not had any lab testing, I measure as Hunter, strength test high on Hunter and almost as high on Explorer.
I can say from my subjective experience with the food list from the Hunter diet and a few things from the Explorer diet has worked great for me and I have seen improvements in more ways than I had hoped or even knew that I needed. Wahoo
Posted by: Patty H, Wednesday, November 9, 2011, 7:13pm; Reply: 30
Joeyy, I recently found out that I have a genetic glitch that makes it difficult for me to break down dietary cholesterol, which would be counter intuitive for an O + nonnie Hunter.  It pained me to realize that I would need to take into account this fact and limit my consumption of grass-fed beef.  Funny thing is though, I had already come to this conclusion on my own several months before when my cholesterol went up as well.  When I went back and looked at my SWAMI, I have more than double the servings of fish to red meat per week, so in some respects my SWAMI had already factored this in.  If you were simply following the book and had not invested in SWAMI, you probably WERE eating far too much red meat.  I did a couple of different polls on this forum and found out that I was not unusual.  In general, Hunters get more fish than red meat in their SWAMI.  I think there is an incorrect assumption about O's being red meat eaters.  In general, most O's can digest meat better than the other blood types, but I do not believe that Dr. D meant for us to gorge on red meat at the expense of other, healthy animal protein sources.  I, for one, have been trying to change this misconception and have found that many other O's on this forum tend to do better with fish than with red meat, many of them Hunters.

While my cholesterol numbers are not perfect, all of my ratios are excellent!  I still do consume red meat in moderation, but it is mostly in the form of lamb rather than grass fed beef.  For some reason, lamb seems to be rated differently and I am not sure why.  I try to limit my beef consumption now to once or twice a month and only my own farm-raised grass-fed beef.

I do understand your desire to be a vegetarian from a humanitarian point of view.  I struggle with this myself.  Last year I joined a local meat coop where I can go to the farm and see that the animals are humanely raised, free roaming and grass fed.  Even the chickens and other birds are running free on the farm.  I remember to be thankful for their sacrifice and am grateful that I have access to such a program that supports local, humane agriculture.

I support you in your desire to be a vegetarian.  However, if you do decide that you need some animal protein in your diet at some point in the future, I would highly recommend you consider starting with fish.  Salmon is an amazing fish that can actually help LOWER cholesterol.  Best wishes as you move forward in your journey towards health and wellness  ;)
Posted by: weroflu, Sunday, November 13, 2011, 12:12pm; Reply: 31
patty

have you tried raw meat?
Posted by: Patty H, Sunday, November 13, 2011, 4:59pm; Reply: 32
Quoted from weroflu
patty

have you tried raw meat?


I have eaten steak tartare, but that is about it.  I eat a lot of sushi, so I am more used to eating raw fish.  Why do you ask?
Posted by: 14442 (Guest), Sunday, November 13, 2011, 5:15pm; Reply: 33
The Ancel Keyes Lipid Hypothesis sure has a lot of challengers all over the Internet....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WA5wcaHp4

Found this interesting article a few days ago that says heart disease is caused by a combonation of oxidation due to free radicals & endocrinoligcal problems due to normal aging/loss of metabolic integrity:

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/cholesterol-longevity.shtml

Stress accelerates the oxidation of the polyunsaturated fatty acids in the body, so people who consume unsaturated vegetable oils and fish will have some oxidized cholesterol in their tissues. The constant turnover of cholesterol in the tissues tends to lower the proportion of the toxic oxidized degradation products of cholesterol, but in hypothyroidism, the use of cholesterol is slowed, allowing the toxic forms to accumulate.

Many antioxidant nutrients act like a thyroid supplement did in the 1934 rabbit experiments, preventing atherosclerosis even when extra toxic cholesterol is given to the animals. People who eat seafood get much more selenium in their diet than people who eat nothing from the sea, and selenium is one of the extremely protective nutrients that prevent atherosclerosis in animal experiments with excess cholesterol.

It is well established that several antioxidant nutrients are protective factors in heart disease. The medical establishment has expended a great amount of money and time in the last 60 years fighting the use of vitamin E or selenium for treating or preventing heart disease, though many physicians now take vitamin E themselves. But people who study free radical chemistry recognize that polyunsaturated fats are highly susceptible to oxidation, and that saturated fats tend to slow their degradation, acting to some extent as antioxidants. Several experiments and observations have shown that cholesterol itself can protect against damaging oxidation of polyunsaturated fats, protecting DNA and other vital components of the cell. A consistent program to prevent the oxidation of cholesterol would have to include all of the vitamins and minerals that are involved in antioxidant defense, avoidance of nutrients that exacerbate the destructive oxidations, and an effort to normalize the hormones and other factors, such as carbon dioxide, that have protective effects against free radical oxidation.  A low level of cholesterol might increase susceptibility to the oxidants.

The steroids in general, especially those produced in large amounts, progesterone and DHEA, are important parts of the antioxidant defenses. Cholesterol, either that produced internally by the cell, or taken in from the blood stream, is the precursor for all the steroids in the body. Several of the major steroid hormones are antiinflammatory, and cholesterol itself is antiinflammatory. (Mikko, et al., 2002; Kreines, et al., 1990). Cholesterol also protects against radiation damage, and many forms of toxin (saponins, cobra venom, chloroform--W.G. MacCallum, A Text-book of Pathology, 1937, Saunders Co.; many more recent studies show that it protects blood cells against hemolysis--breakdown of red blood cells--caused by heat and other harmful agents; e.g., Dumas, et al., 2002, Velardi, et al., 1991). Cholesterol, vitamin E, progesterone, and vitamin D are considered to be "structural antioxidants," that prevent oxidation partly by stabilizing molecular structures. One of the basic functions of cholesterol seems to be the stabilization of mitochondria, preventing their destruction by stress. Serious stress lowers ATP, magnesium, and carbon dioxide. When ATP and intracellular magnesium are decreased, cholesterol synthesis increases.......

In very young people, the metabolic rate is very high, and the rapid conversion of cholesterol into pregnenolone, DHEA, and progesterone usually keeps the level of cholesterol in the blood low. In the 1930s, a rise in the concentration of cholesterol was considered to be one of the most reliable ways to diagnose hypothyroidism (1936 Yearbook of Neurology, Psychiatry, and Endocrinology, E.L. Sevringhaus, editor, Chicago, p. 533). With aging, the metabolic rate declines, and the increase of cholesterol with aging is probably a spontaneous regulatory process, supporting the synthesis of the protective steroids, especially the neurosteroids in the brain and retina.
Posted by: weroflu, Sunday, November 13, 2011, 6:35pm; Reply: 34
to patty,

i don't know what your genetic problem is but eating raw can get around problems where certain enzymes are not produced. people usually associate this with fruits and vegetables but the same principle applies to raw meats where the lipase is preserved in the fat, the cholesterol has not been oxidized/denatured, etc etc.


Posted by: Patty H, Sunday, November 13, 2011, 7:34pm; Reply: 35
Quoted from weroflu
to patty,

i don't know what your genetic problem is but eating raw can get around problems where certain enzymes are not produced. people usually associate this with fruits and vegetables but the same principle applies to raw meats where the lipase is preserved in the fat, the cholesterol has not been oxidized/denatured, etc etc.




I just PM'd you.
Print page generated: Thursday, October 2, 2014, 8:44am