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BTD Forums  /  The Encyclopedia/ D'Adamo Library  /  Help with Atrial Fibrillation
Posted by: Al Ge, Monday, September 19, 2011, 7:06am
I get reoccurring atrial fibrillation,(AT) that is where my heart beats at 150 or more every once in a while.  The cardiologist has put me on Amiodrone and Warfrin.  Warfarin is a blood thinner so as to stop clots from forming.  the Amiodrone is an antiarthythmic used for treating life-thereating recurrent heart rhythm disturbances.
I would like to find natural remedy and be able to get well, rather than just keeping me alive.  I just got a CD with all 20 years of Whitaker's Health and Healing news letters.  I looked up AT and found that he recommends 500-1000 mg of magnesium and a minimum of 2-4 grams of a high quality fish oil per day.  And double those if you have absorption problems, diabetes, or take diuretics, which I do take diuretics.
My question; does Dr.D have any recommendations for this problem?  I have not been able to find anything, and I would like to be able to get off of prescription drugs if at all possible.  Also, I would like confirmation from a second source, that the above would be a good solution.
Hope for some guidance.
Al Ge
Posted by: Andrea AWsec, Monday, September 19, 2011, 11:33am; Reply: 1
Hawthorne will help the heart.. bur CURE is another matter.

You may indeed need the medications for your health.
Posted by: Goldie, Monday, September 19, 2011, 12:07pm; Reply: 2
first of are you eating for your blood type?

what have you done so far to heal your body and to support your life..

what did you eat lets say last week?

make a list and it will tell much about how quick you will see changes.

Needing meds might be a thing of the past in 3-6 month if you get your foods and nutrients in order..

There is a encyclopedia for supplements by Dr D.  walk around them and see if any condition started way back, and might apply to you.. but still first start with a list of foods and your blood type.  Also your 'secreter' status- .... all that matters and the learning will not be over night, but you will have great helpers here.. welcome.. !  


Here are the protocols.. it is important to only go on one at a time.. not just to save money but avoiding overlapping of ingredients or interference with your current meds..  good luck ..learning ...
Posted by: Patty H, Monday, September 19, 2011, 2:18pm; Reply: 3
My hubby has WPW, or Wolff-Parkinson-White Syndrome:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001206/

This was discovered when he was in the 8th grade.  He take atenolol and it seems to help.  I agree with Sooks.  Rest is critical.  My husband seems to have his episodes when he is over tired or over stressed.  He rests when he needs it.  We own our own business, so he can manage to nap in the late afternoon if he feels tired.  I understand this is not possible for everyone, but I wanted to share and confirm Sooks' need for proper rest.

He also took Trandscendental Meditation many years ago when he was in college.  It helps tremendously when he is having an episode to calm his body and bring down his heart rate.  TM is expensive now, so any form of meditation would be fine.

He had an ablation three years ago but he may need another as he has had some episodes since the ablation.  Unfortunately, he has the type of WPW that can cause instant death because his WPW involves both the upper and lower chambers of the heart, so we take this very seriously.  He went off his medication after the ablation, but found that he was still having episodes.

I don't know if AF and WPW are similar, but I thought I would share this info about the sleep and meditation.  Good luck and please don't come off your medication without the help and advise of your doctor.  If AF is a wiring issue, like WPW, you may find you need your meds to control your heart rate.  However, maybe you can talk to your doctor about different meds or decreasing the amount you take.
Posted by: NewHampshireGirl, Monday, September 19, 2011, 3:10pm; Reply: 4
Hi Al, you have done very well in keeping yourself in good health and I thoroughly understand your desire not to take prescription meds.  I'm not far behind you in age and up until this spring I had not taken prescription meds (except thyroid med) until I was diagnosed with atrial flutter.  The flutter and the fibrillation are like brother and sister explained the cardiologist when I quizzed him.  I did have cardioversion to bring the heartbeat back into rhythm and I now take Cardizem to slow the heart rate and lower the blood pressure.  I was also put on lisinopril for blood pressure.  I am also on warfarin for a year.

On the one hand I was unhappy I now had to break my perfect record and take meds but on the other hand I really don't want the flutter again as it felt awful and made me feel very tremulous inside so I don't fight the fact I am on Cardizem and lisinopril.  In other words, I have come to terms with the situation.

I have always taken supplements, including magnesium and I still do.

I hope this information will be of some help.  Best of luck in your continuing research and keep us posted.  I'm certainly interested.
Posted by: Andrea AWsec, Monday, September 19, 2011, 3:24pm; Reply: 5
This is not something that you can get help with here, you need to see an ND... going off your medication can cause a stroke.

Having an A fib as chid is not the same as having it at age 85.
:-/ :-/
Posted by: Goldie, Monday, September 19, 2011, 3:58pm; Reply: 6
When my aged friend was getting sacred about heart palpitations, I gave her my oxymeter that also shows the pulse rate.. I did that not so much as to measure either, but rather, for HER to SEE what is going on and with it calm her own body/ attitude/ fears down and feel more confident that it would not be her time to leave yet..

I saw her being grateful and using the finger pinch she felt much calmer about her heart beats.. in fact she hardly ever mentioned it other then when the batteries went flat..

These little pulse thingies are now available for little money.. it may be worth the investment.. being able to SEE what is going on is very reassuring.. all the best..
Posted by: Joyce, Monday, September 19, 2011, 6:46pm; Reply: 7
Not in any way denigrating Dr D's work but the absolute best forum regarding atrial fibrillation is

http://www.afibbers.org/toboards.htm

read the 'very important message' which gives you the username and password to prevent spam.

You will find that Dr D's O type diet is to the fore :)

Fishoil and hawthorn can make afib worse for some people and better for others......... magnesium is a must...... but do go and at least have a look - all things from diet, supplements, drugs and operations are discussed by some very knowledgeable, personally involved posters.
Posted by: Al Ge, Monday, September 19, 2011, 8:45pm; Reply: 8
Wow! Thank you one and all.  I will look up the things that many of you have suggested.  I have an appointment with the cardiologist for Thursday morning.  What I asked her is whether I could get a reading of the episode from my pacemaker.  I have a couple of readouts that give history of when and how long the fibrillation occurred.
The reason that I was interested and concerned was a near serious almost accident on Sunday.  A friend and I were hooking up my van to the boat trailer when I was going to 'ease it forward a bit';  but as I was moving my foot back to the brake, my size 13 shoe, for some reason got caught on the brake pedal and as I pushed, on what I thought was the brake, I accelerated very fast, throwing my friend to the ground.  Fortunately I was able to get it stopped before hitting anything, which was only 40 feet away.
That started my heart pumping and I felt chest pains and my right arm hurt.  I was having a mild heart attack.  This I have felt before, and it passes, this time it took longer to go away.  We went up to the club house and got some cool water and I sat down.  A nurse friend, asked how I was feeling and told her what was going on, she wanted to call 911 but I assured her that it was not serious.  She took my pulse without a watch said it was over 150, then checked it every 15 minutes or so and it went back down.  We bandaged up my friend and decided not to go sailing.
What I would like to have is a readout of what and how long I was in AT.  Also, a measure before I start increased dosage of Mg and fish oil so I have a record to compare results.  Dr. D's Encyclopedia does not mention AT in particular, just heart health in general.  I have always had a slow heart beat, about 50, the doctors in WWII would always ask if I ran cross country, which I did and also, long distance swimming, I guess that attributed to my slow heart  rate, the pacemaker speeds it up to 70.
So, to answer some, I am not as strict with the diet as I would like, but my wife, of 57 years, does not wish to cook two different meals any more so I we have mixed results.  I am over weight, by my standards but most think I am slim. Thanks again for all the concern and help.  I will check out the suggestions.
Al Ge
Posted by: Goldie, Monday, September 19, 2011, 8:45pm; Reply: 9
did I forget this link to protocols??

http://www.dadamo.com/protocols/9.html
Posted by: Joyce, Monday, September 19, 2011, 9:16pm; Reply: 10
Afib seems to afflict those who considered themselves to be very fit, athletes etc.... if you look at the forum and conference room stuff on the link I gave above you will learn more than most individual cardiologists!!!
Posted by: Al Ge, Thursday, September 22, 2011, 7:38pm; Reply: 11
I just got back for the Cardiologist.  I ask for the appointment after my episode Sunday.  The readout of my pacemaker sowed that I was NOT in AF Sunday, and the doctor said it was more likely that the excitement caused my heart to try and pump so fast that there was not enough blood and that caused the discomfort.  That seems reasonable since I've had these before with no long lasting effects.  It turn out that I am in AF now and have been since early Wednesday morning.  Now I don't feel any different, that I can tell.  My wife said that I was jumpy all day yesterday, but I don't have a clue.  I told the doc about the Mg and fish oil recommendation and she said okay, even said I could stop the Amiodrone if I wanted to.  I think I will load up on Mg and see if it helps.  The problem is I have no idea whether I'm in AF or not.
Oh, Joyce, I looked up that web site and am a bit confused by the blogs.  I will look at it again.
Thanks everyone,
Al Ge
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Thursday, September 22, 2011, 9:16pm; Reply: 12
Are you sure you need the blood thinner? Os in general have thinner blood than other blood types. It can be dangerous to suddenly stop taking meds, so you shouldn't just stop taking it without medical guidance, but I do suggest researching whether or not it's truly needed for your particular situation. Is there a particular reason you've been put on this medication? Is there some way to test the "thin-ness" of your blood to see if this is truly needed right now? Fish oil can also thin the blood, so you may want to be cautious about taking those together.

The medication that keeps your heart beating steady is the one I'd be most hesitant for you to stop, but you already got the go-ahead from the cardiologist to stop that one.
Posted by: Jennihul, Thursday, September 22, 2011, 9:58pm; Reply: 13
Mine completely disappeared when I quit wheat. Now it returns even if I have a speck of wheat.

Posted by: NewHampshireGirl, Thursday, September 22, 2011, 11:33pm; Reply: 14
Quoted from Jennihul
Mine completely disappeared when I quit wheat. Now it returns even if I have a speck of wheat.



Very interesting observation.(book2)
Posted by: Al Ge, Friday, September 23, 2011, 3:57am; Reply: 15
That is interesting, one way that I cheat on the diet, (because I thought I was in good health) is to eat wheat in desserts.  That is not a big part of my diet, but you say even a speck.  I'll watch that.  I only eat Ezekiel beard.
As for the blood thinner, maybe that is why she suggested that I stop it if I am going to continue with the Mg and fish oil.
I guess the fact that I was in AF for some20 hours and she didn't say that it stopped.
If I thought Dr. D would see me I wonder if it would do any good.  I could go to California and see Dr, W, or probably a doctor on his staff as I did in '09.  I really would like a second opinion.  Just thinking out loud.
Al Ge
Posted by: Andrea AWsec, Friday, September 23, 2011, 11:43am; Reply: 16
Some things are not so simple--- if you have a conduction problem with your heart which you clearly do, that is why you have the pacemaker--- the coumadin is not such a bad idea.

Why do you have the pacemaker?


More history is needed from you.

The heart is a pump, and when it does not fully pump  (like in an Afib) clots form in the chambers, then when it pumps fully ( which it will do now and then as you do not stay in Afib all the time) a clot will shoot out of the chamber of your heart and can cause a stroke.

This is not just about thin blood... it is about how your heart functions
Posted by: Joyce, Friday, September 23, 2011, 12:17pm; Reply: 17
Quoted from Al Ge

Oh, Joyce, I looked up that web site and am a bit confused by the blogs.  I will look at it again.
Thanks everyone,
Al Ge


Hi Al Ge,
Not sure what you mean by blogs on that site - 'threads' as on here surely?
If you click on proceed to the bulletin board, type in the [given] username of afibbers and the password 2sesame........ it should come up with the threads.
Maybe the best idea is to start a new one yourself, explaining your situation.
All the best,
Joyce
Posted by: Al Ge, Friday, September 23, 2011, 2:22pm; Reply: 18
Just a quickie, have to go out.  Yes, threads, and they seem to be able to tell when they are in AF, I cannot.
Al Ge
Posted by: Patty H, Friday, September 23, 2011, 2:35pm; Reply: 19
Quoted from Andrea AWsec
Some things are not so simple--- if you have a conduction problem with your heart which you clearly do, that is why you have the pacemaker--- the coumadin is not such a bad idea.

Why do you have the pacemaker?


More history is needed from you.

The heart is a pump, and when it does not fully pump  (like in an Afib) clots form in the chambers, then when it pumps fully ( which it will do now and then as you do not stay in Afib all the time) a clot will shoot out of the chamber of your heart and can cause a stroke.

This is not just about thin blood... it is about how your heart functions


Yes, my MIL has a similar condition and needs to take coumadin so that her blood does not clot too easily if it pools in the chamber because it was not pumped out of the chamber.  She gets her blood checked regularly.
Posted by: Joyce, Friday, September 23, 2011, 5:37pm; Reply: 20
Some folks know when they are in afib, some don't.  I don't always know myself unless I happen to take my BP.

I use nattokinase as an anticlotting agent with the blessing of my doctor, but always discuss this with your health carer.

Some versions of nattokinase are better than others....... I now use one from http://www.usenzymes.com

You MUST make sure you are looked after whatever you decide is right for you... and BTW make sure your kidney function is OK if you take magnesium.

As I say, there is a wealth of professional and anecdotal info on the linked-to site.... I have no connection with it other than as a posting/reading member.
Posted by: meh206, Saturday, September 24, 2011, 3:22am; Reply: 21
I agree with you about the affibers web site, Joyce.
Much information.
Good inormation about the NA/K ratio and the magnesium.
Posted by: Andrew, Saturday, September 24, 2011, 5:42am; Reply: 22
Al Ge:
I understand that you want to get off the medications.

The "blood thinner" (warfarin, coumadin) dose is controlled by the INR level using a blood test. One's blood type (ABO) does not matter.  The amount of the medication is varied in order to achieve the desired INR level (usually between 2 and 3). This is necessary as the heart is not pumping efficiently. The chambers may not be completely emptied or maybe there are areas of very low flow. These areas greatly increase the chances for clots to form. A clot that travels to the brain is called a stroke. A clot that travels to the heart is a heart attack. (Sorry, but this IS serious stuff.)

Amiodrone is a nasty drug. I do not know your circumstances but it may be a drug of last resort. If you do not need this, if it does not work for you or there are alternates, I suggest that you encourage the cardiac specialist to wean you off this drug. The side effects include liver and kidney damage.

I was diagnosed with atrial fibrillation 3 years ago. I may have had it for much longer but it was not evident to me. Various drugs, including the amiodrone, were tried but none worked to correct the atrial fibrillation. Fortunately there was no permanent liver nor kidney damage from the amiodrone. It did damage to an already under performing thyroid. The coumadin / warfarin worked just fine. Fortunately the ablation has eliminated the atrial fibrillation.

Hope that this helps.

Andrew
Posted by: Goldie, Saturday, September 24, 2011, 8:35am; Reply: 23
I have posted this before in some place,  but it might apply here as well, see if you can get one of those finger click on thingies to measure your own pulse rate.  Just by doing that frequently you can get a much better picture of what is going on.  while the security of KNOWING when you are reacting gives you an chance to change things you eat or do.  There is comfort in testing, as fear is a strong driver causing issues that you might be able to avoid.  Learn to meditate learn to reduce the inner workings that might be causes of whatever and for sure - listen to your wife - she knows you better then any person you see for a few minutes - do relax or take a lovely walk with her - hand in hand - much more important then you think - and sit on the same side while dining out so you can both see the same view.. intimacy makes for security. Security creates peace in body and mind...    
Posted by: Joyce, Saturday, September 24, 2011, 10:51am; Reply: 24
Quoted from meh206
I agree with you about the affibers web site, Joyce.
Much information.
Good inormation about the NA/K ratio and the magnesium.


Thankyou Mey206.

There is also good info about ablation if that is one's choice.

Even after ablation afib can return so it is just as important to continue with other health protocols.

The 'diet' generally touted on that site is a typical Dr D's 'O' type diet - a bit of a bother for A's like me!!

Goldie, you put forward some very good points :)

and yes Andrew, this is serious stuff..... made light of by some doctors, and patients made over anxious by others!

Joyce
Posted by: Al Ge, Saturday, September 24, 2011, 10:39pm; Reply: 25
Hello again everyone, and thank you for all the concern, info, and insight.
Yes, I am beginning to realize that this can be serious.  As many of you, I am not a fan of MD's.  I think I will make an appointment to at Dr. Whitaker's clinic in Newport Beach, California, I do trust them, and we have friends and  family there. They are the ones who I went to for a second opinion, I wish I could see Dr. D but I have no place to stay if I go there, hotels would run the cost up too much.  
I think I am feeling a bit less jumpy, after three days on extra Mg and fish oil, maybe I am out AF.  I cannot tell when taking my pulse, and our automatic blood pressure meter never reads anything more than 70's.  
Thanks again,
Al Ge
Posted by: Lola, Saturday, September 24, 2011, 10:43pm; Reply: 26
contact the clinic about a possible phone consult.....Dr Nash might be available if Dr D were not available?

asking never hurt anyone, right? :)
Posted by: Al Ge, Wednesday, September 28, 2011, 3:58am; Reply: 27
Thanks, Lola, I might just try that.
I went sailing Sunday and got very tired 3-4 times and had to stop,sit and drink water.  We didn't even try to get into the races, I was out of it.  If I was in Afib from 100am Wednesday through 300pm Thursday at the doctor's office and the doc didn't seem to worried about I wonder if it is life threatening for me.  I stopped the Amiodrone Monday morning and have felt pretty good, we worked most of the day in the shop Monday and today, feel good.  I have been on the extra Mg and Fish oil since last Friday, I think I'll try this for a week or so.
Oh, I finally found an article that told me about nattokinase, that someone said they were on, I will try that next.
My wife is upset because I am changing what I am taking, but the doc said that if I were to take the Mg and Fish oil I could stop the Amiodrone.  I am feeling good and seem to have more energy, that is my goal.
Thanks again for the interest.
Posted by: Joyce, Wednesday, September 28, 2011, 7:44am; Reply: 28
Quoted from Al Ge

Oh, I finally found an article that told me about nattokinase, that someone said they were on, I will try that next.


I take nattokinase, as do a few others on the afibbers site.

Make sure you get a 'certified' version.

One I use is Nutricology nattozyme 100mg [2000FU] NSK-SD one every 8 hours, apparently the night-time one is essential.

Another I've just started is made by USenzymes......... I get that via an internet friend who herself has a clotting disorder and was under the care of Dr Holsworth.

Please search some posts on the afibbers site [esp those by Jackie or Hans Larsen] for more info before taking a leap, and good luck.
Posted by: Al Ge, Saturday, October 1, 2011, 3:32am; Reply: 29
Well, I emailed Dr.D about getting a 'telephone' appointment and was told that is not done.  I am feeling so much better without the Amiodrone for the last four days, and just the extra Mg and Fish oil now for a week, that I think I will just try following the diet more closely than I have been and see if I gain my energy and stamina back.

Thanks for all the help, it has been very encouraging for me.
Al Ge
Posted by: cajun, Sunday, October 2, 2011, 4:51am; Reply: 30
Have any of you with A-fib had problems with swollen legs/feet/ankles/face?

Just curious as my DH had a pacemaker/de-fib appliance put in in Feb. of this year.
He hated being on coumadin so switched to pradoxa 2 months ago.
He was always a hyper kind of guy and now feels like he is in slow motion...its sad because the surgery really changed his life...not all for the better. His device hasn't even kicked in once! He regrets the surgery ... was "paddled" twice..they burned him, too...put on 4 different meds...then switched a couple...now there is no going back. :'(

He is an O-Hunter. He eats my cooking so is following his diet most of the time. I recently convinced him to give up wheat....he cut back on corn. He takes Dr. D's polyvite-O and deflect-O.
Posted by: nowishow, Tuesday, October 11, 2011, 11:27pm; Reply: 31
Quoted from cajun
Have any of you with A-fib had problems with swollen legs/feet/ankles/face?



So sorry to hear what your DH is going through. It sounds really hard. I was thinking the swollen legs etc. might be due to slow lymphatic system. Just an idea.
Posted by: Jane, Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 4:54pm; Reply: 32
Swollen legs can also be a sign of congestive heart failure.  He needs to get rid of the excess fluids.
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