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Posted by: ruthiegirl, Wednesday, July 6, 2011, 11:28pm
I'm worried about my 15yo. She's been having a hard time falling asleep for a while now. She gets into bed and simply can't fall asleep most of the time. Melatonin does absolutely nothing for her.

We've discovered that it's worse when she hasnt' exercised, but it still happens on days when she's gotten enough exercise.

She's mostly compliant,  but I'm sure she consumes more sugar than she should, doesn't limit conventional sodas (HFCS) when away from home (once or twice a week, and not every week), and I know for a fact she had corn on the cob this weekend at a friend's house. She's very strict about avoiding wheat, and I think she gets enough protein and almost enough vegetables msot of the time.

She's alseep right now, but then she didn't sleep at all last night. She was up until about 1:00 or 2:00 AM reading (which I consider reasonable for a teenager over the summer), couldn't sleep, got up and read some more. When I got up at 11:00 AM, she was still up from the night before. She doesn't understand why this is happening- we went to the beach yesterday, got plenty of exercise and sunshine, showered when we got home, and she ate plenty of "real food," all of it compliant. So why couldn't she sleep?

She also has a problem with one of her fingernails. I don't know if it's a completely unrelated problem or if it indicates a nutritional deficiency that could affect her sleep. She's completely missing a cuticle on one finger- apparently she picked at her cuticles a bit too much and that one never grew back. The nail is "wiggly" on that finger, rather than smooth and straight. Is there soemthing she can put on the finger to help the nail grow normally again?
Posted by: geminisue, Wednesday, July 6, 2011, 11:54pm; Reply: 1
Ruthie
She's 15, I noticed the same thing happened in all three of my children, and also been hearing about the same thing happening to my two oldest grandchildren, about the same year.  It seems their minds won't shut off, to let them sleep. I insisted my children went to bed, at a certain time. Lights off, no phone calls, no tv, no games.
They would complain they were awake for hours, but sometimes this happened, other times, they fell asleep within two hours of laying down.

If she is concerned about it and is asking you why she isn't sleeping, ask her to try and look at something orange for 5-10 minutes, after viewing anything on a screen.  This is suppose to turn down the thought process for the night.  It helps me, not sure about teens, my two grandchildren, haven't tried it that I know about.  They are 18 and almost 17 now, and are both sleeping better.  No harm was done, by the lost of sleep they experienced.  

Hugs
Linda
Posted by: Mark, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 12:22am; Reply: 2
Valerian is pretty good for O's before sleep, especially in conjunction with the melatonin. Just be sure to cycle the supplements.
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 1:05am; Reply: 3
lower her frequency values of compliant carbs throughout the day

a blood sugar reading before bed might be right.....to monitor
Posted by: Goldie, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 4:01am; Reply: 4
LEAVE the child alone.. leave her not worry, leave her to her self, not worry about it.. the best way to confuse a kid is with expectations.. and by paying overly attention.. leave her she will sleep when she needs to.. IT IS the way kids learn to read books.. I used to read with a candle or flashlight.. but I read.. others never learned that .. but she is not allowed to INTERFERE in the sleep of others.. (it's just menopause in reverse) she will even out as soon as school starts..

Melatonin at that young age would not be indicated..

Carbs don't matter either, nor does compliancy if she is willing to do some things at least.. that then needs to be good enough..  

NOW the nail that is concerning me seriously.. seen a doctor? could it be some form of fungus? I would see a doctor and have him test it with I think blue light.. a nail bed is to be healthy..  I googled nail bed issues, I'm sorry I did..

At 15 kids /girls can have issues they don't care to admit ..like.. itching another sign of fungus from wetness like bathing suits, or not drying after urination.. .. some kids have issues so severe that they can not help but itch and then feel embarrassed that there are feelings there.. (summer is a good time for just such a hygiene conversation..) not all things are talked about unless someone opens the conversation..  

Is the sewing machine in her room? maybe she would just learn to sew as I did when I was young.. get her yarn to make a blanket.. or some embroidery pillows.. anything to keep quiet and still busy that allows for thinking and yet allow sleep to come by doing repetitious work..

Some people sleep after a bath.. I am not one of them.. a banana might help to sleep, or chocolate.. some honey in milk for some.. PINK is the color to relax by, but it has to be solid pink..

As long as she is ok, and does not fret then I would not worry..  8) soon she will go into the next phaze.. sleeping all day..  :-/
Posted by: brinyskysail, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 4:53am; Reply: 5
Goldie has a point.  I had sleeping problems for years, and the more I thought about it, the worse it was.  As soon as I stopped worrying/thinking about it, it went away - just like that, after years of sleeplessness.  Don't mention anything about that to your daughter though; trying to get her to stop thinking about it will only make it harder to not think about.  I'd try just letting it run its course.  If it doesn't go away after school starts then it might require attention.
Posted by: koahiatamadl, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 7:15am; Reply: 6
Part of the problem may well be that her normal school day routine is not there during the summer.  So her sleep rhythm is all over the place.  Which is fine.  Unless she's getting stressed about it just leave her to it.  If she's been up all night she'll sleep at some point during the day - she won't get sleep deprived unless she has to be somewhere in the morning.   :)
Posted by: Andrea AWsec, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 11:20am; Reply: 7
Some sleep stuff is hormonal, I find that I have a hard time during my cycle.

Fem balance is great stuff.

Someone told me that if women took the fem balance starting around age 35 they would not have menopausal symptoms.   I know your daughter is young but she may benefit from the balancing that it would bring to her body.

Posted by: jeanb, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 11:57am; Reply: 8
My kids don't have sleeping issues even though I have a 15 year old and 20 year old.  The 20 year old  told me the other day that he just gets up at 6 with no alarm, some of his friends can't do that and are always in trouble at work and school.  The 15 year old gets up at 7 winter and 8:30 in the summer.

I have never let my kids circadian rhythms get shifted.  Even when they were babies, I would have them out of bed by 6 am, fed and bathed and in the car ready to go to work by 7 (Both of them came to work with me when they were babies to toddler age). Both kids were/are active in sports so the weekends are not for sleeping in, we are usually on the road by 7 am.

I have noticed that when kids come over whose rhythms are shifted or they are not great sleepers, it takes them about 48 hours to shift back to a regular cycle.  I also don't let them sleep with cell phones, computers, games or even books.  Everything in the house gets turned off.  Like Goldie, I make them go to bed around 9 or 10, usually the first night is the restless night (we also eat before 6 and no snacks after 6).  I get them out of bed by seven and get them moving, no lying down during the day or after supper.  The second night is the night they usually crash at 9 and then they naturally get up at 7 the next day.


Posted by: ruthiegirl, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 5:58pm; Reply: 9
Quoted from koahiatamadl
Part of the problem may well be that her normal school day routine is not there during the summer.  So her sleep rhythm is all over the place.  Which is fine.  Unless she's getting stressed about it just leave her to it.  If she's been up all night she'll sleep at some point during the day - she won't get sleep deprived unless she has to be somewhere in the morning.   :)


Things were a lot worse before school ended. She had the same problem falling asleep, but then had to get up in the mornings. If she had a busy weekend, and couldn't catch up on sleep then, she'd be a mess the entire next week. This isn't only a summer/no schedule problem. It's not as bad now because she can sleep until 2:00 PM if she has to

It is a problem for her, because she sleeps all morning and early afternoon, then is bored in the evenings/nighttime when she can't sleep but there's nothing to do and no place to go. It's also causing stress when I want to go somewhere as a family, but she's not up in time to get anywhere (such as the beach before the lifeguards go off duty.)
Posted by: brinyskysail, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 6:08pm; Reply: 10
Have you tried making her get up in the morning even if she has been awake late.  Enough of that in a row, and she might get tired enough to go to sleep early.  I do that to myself anytime I have trouble falling asleep or start staying up too late.
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 6:24pm; Reply: 11
Quoted from brinyskysail
Have you tried making her get up in the morning even if she has been awake late.  Enough of that in a row, and she might get tired enough to go to sleep early.  I do that to myself anytime I have trouble falling asleep or start staying up too late.


Yes, I have. Sometimes it's effective (if there's something "worth getting up for") but it has zero effect on what time she falls asleep the next night. Even if I do that several mornings in a row, she'll end up sleep deprived rather than getting on a better sleep schedule. The last  couple of months of school, she got up on time for school each day  but still couldn't fall asleep easily at night.

It's bothering her. She WANTS to be able to fall asleep when it's late and she's tired and there's nothing to do because the rest of the house is asleep and it's too late to go anywhere. She WANTS to be able to go to bed early enough to not be a "zombie" on school days, or to be able to "get a good night's sleep" before an important test.
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 6:30pm; Reply: 12
assuming it none of the obvious teenage things perhaps it may be an idea to look at a mild underlying heath issue like leaky gut, low absorption, inflammatory bowel diseases, hyperacidity.

the nail issue may be significant, either regarding nerves or malabsorbtion issues albeit mild.

she may have a mild bug that is just taking the egde off things depression is a funny old thing. perhaps a good old fashioned girlie day for mum and daughter would be a good idea to get things relaxed and perhaps find out if anything is bothering her. although obviously no pressure should be surprised - don't mean to teach a duck to lay eggs of course.

other things that could be an issue are mould, allergies, down right bone idleness is always possible, I'm guilty of that myself at times. but i think being busy and having lots to do and many Friends is the best cure for most things at that age. bon chance oxo
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 6:34pm; Reply: 13
you mentioned that it is not as bad on days that she exercises, perhaps she just needs to expend more energy and get more tired from physical exertion. again don't mean to state the obvious. oxo
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 6:37pm; Reply: 14
Natural remedies for nail health (not BT related- so adjust accordingly)
•Slippery elm powder before meals helps improve mineral absorption in the small intestines
•Herbs which may assist in improving the appearance of the nails are: Gotu Kola, Horestail and Oats
•B Vitamins, Choline, Inositol and Biotin are all essential nutrients to improve the quality and appearance of the hair, skin and nails
•The minerals Zinc, Calcium, Silica and Iron form the building blocks for hair skin and nails
•Essential fatty acids
•Amino acids (proteins) - Cysteine, Methionine and Taurine
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 6:38pm; Reply: 15
does she get very hot during the day when exerting herself in  which case it could be sugar/ fodmap related
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 6:44pm; Reply: 16
n alternative view just for info on many things to expand your research even Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder -- How can these symptoms be related to sleep?


http://www.healthyresources.com/sleep/magazines/sleepwell/teens.html

Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome.
This is really an exaggeration of the natural tendency with the onset of puberty for the sleep-on clock to be set late. In this case, "late" can mean that a youngster finds it difficult to get to sleep before 2 or 3 in the morning. Obviously, this same person will be very difficult to wake up for school, and will want to sleep in on week-ends.

If the late-to-bed/late-to-rise pattern really is part of this syndrome rather than "just teenage" behaviour, it is well to know this. Treatment involves either the use of special bright lights, or an interesting rotation of bedtimes for a couple of weeks. The intent of treatment is to re-set the biological clock to a timing more compatible with the youngster's life.
Posted by: brinyskysail, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 6:46pm; Reply: 17
Quoted from ruthiegirl


Yes, I have. Sometimes it's effective (if there's something "worth getting up for") but it has zero effect on what time she falls asleep the next night. Even if I do that several mornings in a row, she'll end up sleep deprived rather than getting on a better sleep schedule. The last  couple of months of school, she got up on time for school each day  but still couldn't fall asleep easily at night.

It's bothering her. She WANTS to be able to fall asleep when it's late and she's tired and there's nothing to do because the rest of the house is asleep and it's too late to go anywhere. She WANTS to be able to go to bed early enough to not be a "zombie" on school days, or to be able to "get a good night's sleep" before an important test.


I understand her frustration - I went through the same thing starting in late elementary and lasting through high school.  I didn't get a good night's sleep for about 8 years straight (sorry, not trying to scare you).  For me I think it was psychological.  Ever since I was very young I have been concerned about what I would do with my life; it was constantly on my mind.  Sometimes I know that's what was keeping me awake because I was directly thinking about it, but I have a feeling it was subconsciously keeping me awake other times.  After my first year of college when I had a set plan and was very pleased with and excited about what I was doing, all the sleeping problems stopped.  I never had to lie awake thinking about it anymore.  Even at the time I had somewhat connected it to the lack of sleep, but, looking back, it's very obvious.  My aunt has the same problem - not being able to sleep because her mind wanders and keeps her up.  It may not be the answer, but perhaps something is bothering your daughter, even if she doesn't realize it.  My problem started when I was only in 5th grade, and I didn't get it at the time; it took me awhile to figure out what was keeping me awake, but even after figuring it out I never spoke to anyone about it so it wasn't laid to rest until it played itself out 8 years later.
Posted by: koahiatamadl, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 6:58pm; Reply: 18
If it is a problem for you all I'd start with good sleep hygiene  http://www.umm.edu/sleep/sleep_hyg.htm.  It's all about good habits that are conducive to good sleep so it's free and changes can be implemented easily and she is in charge of the process  ;)
Posted by: nowishow, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 7:17pm; Reply: 19
I had a lot of trouble sleeping for a while due to Lyme disease and low seratonin levels. I used 5HTP. It seemed to help me. You can read about it here:


http://www.painstresscenter.com/mall/5htp.html

http://www.painstresscenter.com/mall/Teenlink.html
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 7:22pm; Reply: 20
Thanks for the links PC. I wish the link gave more info on "delayed sleep phase syndrome" because that does sound like what she has. I know it's not sleep apnea because we share a bedroom- I'd know if she snored!!

Quoted Text
Get into your favorite sleeping position. If you don't fall asleep within 15-30 minutes, get up, go into another room, and read until sleepy.
She does this. The other night she got up and read for a few hours because she couldn't fall asleep!!! She was literally awake for over 24 hours straight, then "napped" for about 8 hours in the afternoon, got up for a snack, and went back to bed. Now she's back to her "usual pattern" and got up at 2:00 PM.  ::)
Posted by: Goldie, Thursday, July 7, 2011, 8:26pm; Reply: 21
1. I would say the following.. IF she went to over seas and had a 6 hour delay she would be ok.. BUT I bet she would just change and go to sleep late again..

IT is something induced by her, a kind of anxiety.. a kind of food eaten at night maybe turn the food on its head..

milk and cookies.. and then lights out.. (truth I rarely fall asleep without TV that shuts off 40 minutes later.)

Get some somatic CD's and listen to birdsong or ocean waves, water gurgling..

and go someplace to learn meditation..

no stimulating books.. even though I like reading.. but not blood and gore..

Does she keep busy in her brain and stimulated during the day.. then maybe stop stimulating earlier in the evening..

again- learn to crochet.. IT gives time to think .. let her write in a journal what she wishes.. no rules.. just unload..

a warm water bottle might add comfort.. or on icepack in summer..

a chiro visit might be a good idea..

getting some Ligaplexll from the chiro would make a difference.. read more about my link -- on Manganese.. It helps me .. it helps in day time as well as taking it before bed.. (natural by Standard Process and taste is ok.. ..

putting on eye shades is another ..

if she likes heavy comforter to bundle with then add weight.. if the opposite the remove.. lavender eyepads or a lavender pillow is rest inducing..

TURNING ON A BRIGHT light shining on her face from 6 to 9 am might help to get the morning awareness moving in the brain.. she does not need to be awake when you turn it on.. the body will absorb the light even while sleeping.. or if she has morning light in her room then open the shades early.. but in the evening make sure that she is in complete darkness..

Might she have experienced some fearful thing in her life that interferes even while she is not aware.. journaling will help..

Now with all the ideas one must surly help.. chocolate and banana.. yammm

TRY the Ligaplex ll.. as many as 3 before sleep.. is no problem.. all the best..
Posted by: 13602 (Guest), Sunday, July 17, 2011, 5:33am; Reply: 22
I have had these problems in the past -

Perhaps try
(1) - chammomile tea - strong !!!
(2) - no computer/lights etc 15 minutes before bed
(3) - no stimulants at all including sodas, sugar etc.
(4) - no eating before bed
(5) - try to eat dinner ~ 2-3 hours before bed time
(6) - Milk thistle for liver support may have helped me ... I took therapeutic doses.
Posted by: 13602 (Guest), Sunday, July 17, 2011, 5:39am; Reply: 23
oh yes, and routine routine routine !!! :) Everyday I pretty much have the same schedule
Posted by: Drea, Sunday, July 17, 2011, 5:37pm; Reply: 24
Ruthiegirl, have you tried the white chestnut bach flower remedy with her? That stuff is amazing. I also used the Rescue Sleep for a couple of weeks to reset my sleep schedule (haven't needed it in months!).
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Sunday, July 17, 2011, 6:15pm; Reply: 25
We need to really work on schedules for all of us. Somehow, we were up past midnight reading out loud to DS and then DD2 was up even later reading independently.

I intend to get DS to bed by 10:00 tonight so he'll be back on track. Even if he's not tired at 10:00 PM (which we won't be, after sleeping until 1:45 PM) I can give him melatonin to fall asleep, and break the cycle.

What I really need is something to get DD2 to fall asleep even when she's "not tired" but melatonin doesn't work for her. It's really, really hard to reset her schedule when she can't fall asleep at normal times, even if I do manage to wake her up early.
Posted by: brinyskysail, Sunday, July 17, 2011, 6:41pm; Reply: 26
I just read a couple days ago that the body simply can't go into "sleep mode" without adequate B6 and zinc.  Zinc level can be tested by swishing a 0.1% solution of zinc sulfate (can be bought cheap in stores or online) in the mouth for 10 seconds then spitting it out:

immediate strong taste = no deficiency
immediate very slight taste = no deficiency, but not high levels either
taste after a few seconds or even after spitting it out = slight deficiency
no taste ever = very deficient

It might be worth looking into since it's not that she can't fall asleep but actually doesn't even get tired.
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Sunday, July 17, 2011, 6:51pm; Reply: 27
What are good food sources of zinc? This is the child who won't swallow pills or take any vitamin supplements, plus is rather picky about foods, so it wouldn't surprise me if she has nutritional deficiencies.
Posted by: grey rabbit, Sunday, July 17, 2011, 8:56pm; Reply: 28
Quoted Text

What are good food sources of zinc?
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000124000000000000000.html
Posted by: brinyskysail, Sunday, July 17, 2011, 9:56pm; Reply: 29
I understand because I always choked on pills when I tried to swallow them so I refused to take pill-form supplements until I was in high school; however, I don't think just food-sources would be enough to correct a deficiency ??)  zinc can be taken in liquid form if your daughter is up for that.  The liquid form is usually fairly dilute so she may have to take quite a bit, but at least it's not a pill ;)
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Monday, July 18, 2011, 1:01am; Reply: 30
Perhaps it worth having a look at inclined bed therapy.
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Monday, July 18, 2011, 1:22am; Reply: 31
I'm not sure it's possible to incline a bunkbed though PC.
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Monday, July 18, 2011, 1:32am; Reply: 32
http://www.sleephealthy.com/sleepsolutions/inclinedbedtherapy.shtml
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Monday, July 18, 2011, 1:36am; Reply: 33
perhaps start with a extra pillow

also http://www.sleephealthy.com/sleepsolutions/children.shtml
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Monday, July 18, 2011, 1:36am; Reply: 34
or swap beds for a bit to see if it helps
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Monday, July 18, 2011, 1:39am; Reply: 35
http://www.electroherbalism.com/Naturopathy/Therapies/MiscTherapies/Inclined_bed_therapy.html
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Monday, July 18, 2011, 1:40am; Reply: 36
sheet of wood put under matress then incline the wood hey prestow inclined bunk bed oxo
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Monday, July 18, 2011, 1:57am; Reply: 37
If I incline the bunkbed too much, she may bump her head on the bottom of the top bunk! There isnt' THAT much space in there! And I am not willing to trade beds with her.

But I really don't think that changing her bed is the source or the solution to the problem. She can't sleep because she's not feeling tired, and an inclined bed isn't likely to change that.
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Monday, July 18, 2011, 2:16am; Reply: 38
Actually I'm surprised you don't give it a go, or that you haven't tried switching beds for a few days or a week just to see what happens, you might find out the problem. it seems like it might be worth a try- but at least it gives you another option if you decide to try it.

some of the advice on the site is good advice re sleep anyway.

also the bunk bed thing might be a cause of the sleep problems, you just never know. perhaps who ever she is sharing with is a noisy sleeper. stranger things have happened ;)
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Monday, July 18, 2011, 4:03pm; Reply: 39
The top bunk is empty this month, and will be all summer- except for one night. DD1 is at sleepaway camp, so DS has moved from the top bunk in our room to DD1's empty bed. She comes home on the 26th and he leaves on the 27th, so the evening of the 26th DS will sleep on the top  bunk and DD1 will be in the other room, but then the top bunk will be empty again until late August when his camp ends.

We've had this bunkbed for about 2 years, but the insomnia only started a few months ago. I really don't think it's the bed.

Last night we had a talk about working together to try and get her on a better sleep schedule. I suggested she leave me a note with the time she falls asleep, so I don't try to wake her up too early on nights she was up late, and conversley, I don't let her sleep too long on nights she fell asleep earlier. She got to bed at 5:03 this morning (after sleeping until 3:00 PM yesterday) and then she woke up  briefly around 10:00 AM when DS and I were awake and talking and I'd forgotten to close the bedroom door. I plan to wake her around noon (so, as soon as I finish this post) and then get us to the beach by 1:00 ish. I figure three things:

1) She's more likely to get up if we have plans; "something to get up for,."

2) The sunlight should do her good

3) The exercise early in the day should do her good.
Posted by: Henriette Bsec, Monday, July 18, 2011, 4:29pm; Reply: 40
Sounds vise Ruth
Please read this
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-light-affects-our-sleep/
Posted by: ABJoe, Monday, July 18, 2011, 4:29pm; Reply: 41
I know my daughter doesn't want to get up in the morning when she doesn't have to...  she just doesn't like morning very well, but will get up if she has something she needs to do.  She will even schedule early morning classes for herself if the teacher is better, etc...  Your daughter may be wanting to be more independent with her schedule.  Other than giving her tasks that need to be accomplished at a specified time, I don't know how to prompt her to get up and do something...
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Monday, July 18, 2011, 4:57pm; Reply: 42
Giving her tasks that need to be done at a specified time is an exercise in frustration for both of us. Her chores consist of things like putting away laundry- if she doesn't do it "on time" then it piles up and waits for her to do it later. When I assigned her to putting the trash and recycling on the curb (which only had to be done "sometime in the afternoon or evening before pickup day") oftentimes it didn't get done, or I'd end up screaming at her when it was my bedtime and it wasn't done yet, or somebody else in the family (sometimes me, sometimes another child) did it instead, and sometimes the trash or recycling simply piled up (to extra screaming the following time that it REALLY had to be done now!!)

Give her chores that need to be  done in a specific time frame, like the morning? Forget it! They will not get done.

She doesn't have any specific activities scheduled this summer, until mid August when she goes away for 10 days. So there's nothing for her to get up for, other than "DS and I are going to the beach now- are you coming with us or not?"

I tried waking her up at 12:05. She wanted to snooze. DS and I went to the supermarket, then woke her up again. She told him she was getting up, but that was about 5 or 10 minutes ago and she's still in the bedroom.

I'm getting very frustrated with her. I don't want to deal with her, bored and whiney, later, if I don't take her to the beach with me. But I'm tired of waiting around for her.
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Wednesday, July 20, 2011, 11:50pm; Reply: 43
Here is a link to a pretty cool (FREE) (so been warned and do virus check etc.

programme that darkens your computer screen at night and lighnes in during the day.

I just tried it and it certainly does relax your eyes.

anyone tried it please let me know what you think.

Not sure if your daughter used computer at night but it may help.

got it from an earlier link on bi rhythms above from Henrietta. Thanks oxo
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Wednesday, July 20, 2011, 11:57pm; Reply: 44
forgot the link lol

http://stereopsis.com/flux/
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Thursday, July 21, 2011, 12:15am; Reply: 45
Honestly, I'd rather just say "computer off by 9:00 PM" than play around with the screen controls. Reading has GOT to be better for falling asleep than looking at any kind of screen.
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Thursday, July 21, 2011, 12:44am; Reply: 46
Absolutely agree Ruthie, just wasn't sure if your daughter used computers much and it all may help.

it really eases my eye strain a lot and i have only been using tonight. it installed itself in a minute and worked straight away.
Posted by: Goldie, Thursday, July 21, 2011, 11:18am; Reply: 47
I come back to saying that ..if she traveled to other time zones she would get used tot hem./.

what will she do when school starts again?  

I think reading used to keep me interested longer then dark rooms would have.. but a screen thingy I have not looked at might help if she tried it early at night..

Is it a power struggle?  

IF it was me.. then to the Beach by 11 no matter if she comes or not. the choice is HERS.. but the voice you use to delcare the rule for tomorrow must be totally without rancor and without anger.. just matter of fact..

manipulation is learned so easy..
I think telling you when she went to sleep is less important then telling you when she wan't to be woken..
AND never mind: the doors OPEN at 8 in the morning.. even when men work all night the wives are entitled to a life..

We all make choices, but we all don't LEARN to act on them.. I am not saying that there are many choices for her, but teh real world will not care when she wants to sleep.  Somehow she needs to see that if she is out of whack the she loses out on activeties.. BUT again.. no threats no anger, just dissapoinment that she can not participate.. + AHH I am so sorry, but we will see you later.. even if you have to get a babisitter to stay with her.. for a few days..2 weeks the most.. if you stay strong..

I am sending you a pm.. on how to do this..
Posted by: Henriette Bsec, Thursday, July 21, 2011, 2:48pm; Reply: 48
Well I use the flux program and like it very much.
I have thought about getting  Emma to use it as well.
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Thursday, July 21, 2011, 4:02pm; Reply: 49
Goldie- part of the problem is that I've been "out of sorts" for months. It takes a LOT of energy for me to get myself up and going in the morning, and even more energy to get her up as well. If she wants to come to the beach with us, I really need her to get up half an hour before we leave and pack up her own  damn food! The second-to-last time I dragged her to the beach when she was half asleep, it was infuriating- I wanted her to get up to help get ready to go, when she went back to bed to rest "until it was time to go." The last time went better, because we'd discussed everything the night before.

I don't have the energy to fight with her, and I don't want an antagonistic relationship with her. If she's not doing her part, I won't do mine.

Let's see what happens for the rest of the summer. DD1 has been on a good schedule at sleepaway camp; on Tuesday she comes home, let's see if her schedule rubs off on DD2 at all. Then in mid-August, DD2 goes on a teen tour for 10 days. Perhaps she'll come home from that on a better schedule.
Posted by: Goldie, Thursday, July 21, 2011, 8:55pm; Reply: 50
Quoted Text
I  don't have the energy to fight with her, and I don't want an antagonistic relationship with her. If she's not doing her part, I won't do mine.


that is the best .. but let go of the anger,, that will stress you more then she ever can if you take the pushbuttons away.. kids have a way of playing pegboard.. hide out in the bathrrom if you have to get away from it long enough to breath.. put on your head phones and listen to whaterver You like..    
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Thursday, July 21, 2011, 9:12pm; Reply: 51
I try to let go of the anger, which is why I'm letting this issue slide a lot. She expressed interest in fixing her sleep cycles, but she's not very consistent about putting the work in. I still think that, to break this cycle, we might need some kind of strong "sleeping potion" (whether it's herbal or a drug) to get her to actually fall asleep by around midnight on days when her body won't cooperate with sleeping. But she won't let me suggest things for her to take. I'm also not always aware of how late she's up, since I've been going to sleep before her. Number one priority right now is to  take care of myself, and that includes making sure I get enough sleep, even if she doesn't.

Right now, both kids are at a friends' backyard pool. I woke her at noon, and drove them over there around 1:30 PM, once she'd woken up enough to eat something before going over. Hopefully she'll wear herself out and sleep a little better tonight.
Posted by: 13602 (Guest), Saturday, July 23, 2011, 12:52am; Reply: 52
I had a few other ideas over the last few days,

I sleep best now with no pillow at all, but obviously with adequate bedding (its winter here!)

Another thing is that we suspect that my inability to detoxify mercury has played a large role in my chronic insomnia - perhaps you could get her a hair mineral analysis done ???

Perhaps if she has nutritional deficiencies you could try her on a wholefoods powder ?? :)
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Saturday, July 23, 2011, 1:14am; Reply: 53
Quoted from 13602
I had a few other ideas over the last few days,

I sleep best now with no pillow at all, but obviously with adequate bedding (its winter here!)

Another thing is that we suspect that my inability to detoxify mercury has played a large role in my chronic insomnia - perhaps you could get her a hair mineral analysis done ???

Perhaps if she has nutritional deficiencies you could try her on a wholefoods powder ?? :)


Aren't you a little young to be having mercury problems?
Posted by: 13602 (Guest), Saturday, July 23, 2011, 5:47am; Reply: 54
Well thats what I thought however I think it is more of a 'gene defect' that may have been passed on from my mother (also an explorer but she has mercury fillings)  .... I've never had a high fish intake or anything like that -

Being an explorer, toxins seem to 'stick with me' longer than most people.

But for years I suffered from unexplainable insomnia - In my teens I spent close to a week straight without sleep (~14/15 years old)
Posted by: PCUK-Positive, Saturday, July 23, 2011, 1:57pm; Reply: 55
Have you thought about becomieng a private detective? ;)
Posted by: 13602 (Guest), Saturday, July 23, 2011, 11:50pm; Reply: 56
Me?? Oh no, but i'll give it some thought !
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Monday, July 25, 2011, 6:50pm; Reply: 57
She woke up at 2:00 PM today (I'm running out of energy to wake her up, so I've stopped) and, when I suggested we get dressed so we can go to the library, she complained that "she wants to do something today, not just go to the library." now she's playing on the computer and won't even go to the library with me!

The bottom line is that she's bored and doesnt' have enough activities planned, nor does she have enough friends available to do things with her at the spur of the moment. Most of her friends are in camp or away for the summer. She's just bored and driving me bonkers, and the sleep schedule is one symptom of a bigger problem. If she had something worth getting up for, she'd get up and her schedule would balance out somewhat.

DD1 gets home  from sleepaway camp tomorrow afternoon, and DS goes on Wednesday. I know she'll be up early on Wed, and I'm hoping that the two girls together (plus any friends who may also be home from camp) will develop a more interesting routine than DD2 managed to on her own.
Posted by: Goldie, Monday, July 25, 2011, 7:44pm; Reply: 58
Quoted Text
She woke up at 2:00 PM today (I'm running out of energy to wake her up, so I've stopped) and, when I suggested we get dressed so we can go to the library, she complained that "she wants to do something today, not just go to the library." now she's playing on the computer and won't even go to the library with me!

The bottom line is that she's bored and doesnt' have enough activities planned, nor does she have enough friends available to do things with her at the spur of the moment. Most of her friends are in camp or away for the summer. She's just bored and driving me bonkers, and the sleep schedule is one symptom of a bigger problem. If she had something worth getting up for, she'd get up and her schedule would balance out somewhat.

DD1 gets home  from sleepaway camp tomorrow afternoon, and DS goes on Wednesday. I know she'll be up early on Wed, and I'm hoping that the two girls together (plus any friends who may also be home from camp) will develop a more interesting routine than DD2 managed to on her own.


To all that you wrote I say.. NO.. Nothing is so..

NO to her driving you bonkers..   DON"T let her.. go to the bathroom, the room safe from intruders..

The being on the computer while you wish to do something.. let her.. go to where ever you wish to go.. don’t be angry when leaving, just go, as on escape from whatever is HER reality      


FIND a sitter if you need age wise, or let her be.. THIS IS ONLY a tug of WAR if you tough..

Your own behavior - look in the mirror to see it, your thought shoulders, your stomping on the floor all that is telegraphed to your kid who has chosen this day or week to be anything but what society will allow.  You are right now her link to whatever any teenager would like, the word according to her.. well if you give in by being angry, disappointed or plan upset then she won.. for a long time to come.. she will have arranged to make you dance her tango..

I would much rather she learn that all her ideas about life are screwed up.  she has no choices but to get up 8-9 am and have chores to do.  I mean a kid that can use her energy to drive you dancing to her tone.

I am not idiotic to think what I would propose.. but one thing I would say immediately is that she can not go to camp.. after all she can not get up in the morning.. CALL HER BLUFF if you can mean it.. either she gets up in the morning when camp gets up tomorrow or she does not go.. but you have to mean it.. don't just threaten, do it or forever be good with what is going on.. this is a game.. this is ridiculous, but the question is will you lose out now or later.. Things going bad are just things needing attention and a clear mind of you knowing exactly what you are willing to accept..

THIS IS NOT about the daughter.. this is your bending on your heels until you are the heels she walks on you with..

Starting this minute be mad at me, do what you have to to grow in hight: like a mama bear, get tall and stand your ground.. Be mad at the world for making teens that have little to help with to make this a better place to live.. Be mad at me, it will help..

I have been there, I know how tough the kids can be.. tougher then you any time.. but if she wins now she will forever win against your whole family..

I don't care if she understands the consequences, she needs to understand that you ..in return for not going happily with you where ever you wish to go, when ever it was announced, THEN SHE is jeopardizing her PARTICIPATING in life.. her life as she knows it.. no shopping, no money without chores, no lights after 10 pm and no choices all around.

YOU ARE correct in anything you say about her being bored, and no friends, who needs a friend who is a loser.. in the criminal situations with kids the fear is never will they learn before they get caught in the game they play, but rather will they learn before the stakes are way to high and they end up in trouble.. for real..one way or the other this is for real.. Her school work will be next to suffer.  She should read Pearl S buck books.. Teach her about society and the place we have in it.

In my book you need to decide what you are willing to stay up for.. all night for 2 weeks.. No break! That is the secrete.. Will you be willing to wake her in the morning once at any time you decide like school time and then either, leave her there, or become her slave.. in defeat... and do your own work as needed, and her work too..

One thing is for sure no camp is letting her sleep as she wishes, and no camp waits for her blessings to do things.. YOU are for another day or so her camp director.. either you get it done, or you will pay for many years with the angry child who will not respect you..

A child may be angry, but you need to be clear that her anger has nothing to do with reality, and nothing with YOU>> stay strong.. All you are asking for is RESPECT..

if possible call Aviva..
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Monday, July 25, 2011, 8:29pm; Reply: 59
Find a sitter? She's 15. Finding her somebody to babysit would be more appropriate!

She's not going to camp this summer. She already knows that, if she wants to come along for the ride when we take DS to camp, she needs to be up on time.

I am NOT getting into a power struggle with her. I refuse to do it- I need to take care of myself first. She's too strong minded for that, and nothing good will come of it. I remember getting into a power struggle with her over toileting when she was nearly 4. One time I sat there, holding her on the toilet, while she held in her bladder until finally I couldn't crouch down by the toilet with her anymore and she wet her diaper. I gave up on toileting altogether at that point, until about a month or two later when she decided on her own she was ready.

Trying to overpower her and "make her get up at 9:00 AM and do chores everyday" is going to drain me. I'm dealing with my own health issues right now. I'd rather set an example by taking care of myself and not being available to her in the middle of the night because I went to bed on time.

I'm not going to wait around for her to get up when I have something to do anymore. I'll just do it, and if she misses out, it's her loss.
Posted by: Goldie, Monday, July 25, 2011, 8:50pm; Reply: 60
Quoted Text
I'm not going to wait around for her to get up when I have something to do anymore. I'll just do it, and if she misses out, it's her loss.


YES TO ALL .. yes indeed.. yes..

A 12.5 year old boy in the neighborhood, is going through the same power struggle with his parents.. specialists suggest anger meds.. but they don't know that this kid slept with his parents until 7 .. mom could not separate earlier..

I think one big stand to be taken sooner rather then later is in the cards for any parent.. and single mothers even more so..

so please if need be- email me.. If nothing else I do understand the postering kids go through..

all the BEST!!!!!    
Posted by: Drea, Tuesday, July 26, 2011, 12:52am; Reply: 61
Quoted from ruthiegirl

I'm not going to wait around for her to get up when I have something to do anymore. I'll just do it, and if she misses out, it's her loss.


I think that's the best thing you can do for her (and you). She may learn that the world does not revolve around her, and you can resolve some of your own stress.
Posted by: 13602 (Guest), Tuesday, July 26, 2011, 5:01am; Reply: 62
@ Ruthie -

I'm sure she actually wants to sleep well ... could be a serious underlying problem here !!

Even at 13, 15 , 17 - I really DID want to have a good night sleep because i was fatigued all the time - I mean sure I wanted to hang out with friends till late watching movies or go out to a party but at the end of the day, 95% of the time I wanted to have a good sleep - and actually get to sleep.

I wish someone helped me rather then just saying ' do this' or 'do that' or 'its all in your head' - because as a teenager you can't necessarily be your own doctor.

And I used to snap at my parents because during the longstanding insomnia I wanted to do more then just 'go to the bookstore' or 'walk to the shops' - I felt like I was underachieving because of my fatigue.
Posted by: 13602 (Guest), Tuesday, July 26, 2011, 5:02am; Reply: 63
Oh and hang in there!! xx :)
Posted by: jeanb, Tuesday, July 26, 2011, 11:43am; Reply: 64
15 year olds, by far the worse time of life!!!

I have a 15 year old at home right now as well and the fights can be powerful if I allow them to be.  

In order to have control in my own house, my kid does know that he has chores that have to be done.  Since his older brother has recently moved to his own apartment (can you see the big happy dance), DS does all of he dog stuff, cleans the kitchen, does the garbage and helps with chores as required.  I wake him up every morning at 7 when I leave for work. I make him come down and start working while I am still at home. He is also in charge of making dinner when things are not pre prepared.

If he does start with me, I simply take the cords for the electronics to work.   A couple of weeks ago he was in the car with me and disrespectful, so I told him to get out, we were about 4 km from home so he had to run/walk home.  He hasn't been disrespectful since then.  Depending on what is your DD's "thing", I would probably take the computer cord, her books, and perhaps the telephone.  I would put them in the car and have the key with me.  I know it sounds draconian, but once they understand you have authority and power, they will give in eventually.  It took me 4 months with the older son when he turned 15 to turn him around.  

It sounds like your daughter needs something to do with her time other than doing errands with you and her brother.  Why isn't she babysitting every day or why doesn't she go read to seniors who have difficulty reading?  Does she clean you mothers' house or help with groceries?  I don't think many 15 year olds are self motivated, so we as parents need to motivate.  

The 15 year old knows he is required to get a summer job next year once he has his drivers' license. (We live on an acreage so taking transit is not an option this year). He has decided he wants to be an apprentice welder or millwright so he is getting hours in at school this winter.  
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Tuesday, July 26, 2011, 2:10pm; Reply: 65
I woke up this morning at 8:00 AM (ready to go to the bathroom and climb back into bed, since I was up until 1:30 AM) and she walked in the bedroom (ie, she wasn't asleep in her bed.) She literally has not slept the entire night.

Something is WRONG. Some kind of nutritional deficiency or hormonal imbalance or something.

Me getting annoyed at her for not doing chores is a completely separate issue, and one that we can handle ourselves. Boredom may be a contributing factor, but it's not the whole thing. The three of us went for a long walk last night, probably at least 2 miles, and she literally could not fall asleep, even with lying in bed for 3 hours.

Let's see if we can figure out possible physical causes and physical solutions here. This isn't about "bad parenting" or "not setting enough limits." I already got a PM from brinyskysail about zinc and B6 being possible culprits. Does anybody else have other ideas on what deficiencies could cause this?

She's already been to the pediatrician this year, but I still have to take my older daughter for her annual checkup. I could talk to the dr about DD2 while I'm there with DD1, and request lab tests if any are appropriate.
Posted by: Henriette Bsec, Tuesday, July 26, 2011, 2:21pm; Reply: 66
Quoted from ruthiegirl
I woke up this morning at 8:00 AM (ready to go to the bathroom and climb back into bed, since I was up until 1:30 AM) and she walked in the bedroom (ie, she wasn't asleep in her bed.) She literally has not slept the entire night.

Something is WRONG. Some kind of nutritional deficiency or hormonal imbalance or something.

Me getting annoyed at her for not doing chores is a completely separate issue, and one that we can handle ourselves. Boredom may be a contributing factor, but it's not the whole thing. The three of us went for a long walk last night, probably at least 2 miles, and she literally could not fall asleep, even with lying in bed for 3 hours.

Let's see if we can figure out possible physical causes and physical solutions here. This isn't about "bad parenting" or "not setting enough limits." I already got a PM from brinyskysail about zinc and B6 being possible culprits. Does anybody else have other ideas on what deficiencies could cause this?

She's already been to the pediatrician this year, but I still have to take my older daughter for her annual checkup. I could talk to the dr about DD2 while I'm there with DD1, and request lab tests if any are appropriate.


I agree Ruth.  :K)
something apart from being 15 ::) is wrong
Overactive thyroid can sometimes give you symptoms like not being able to sleep.

However I do think I would take a good talk with her regarding habbits - when does she start school again ???
Cause when she does she´ll have some structure in her dailylife.


Posted by: Goldie, Tuesday, July 26, 2011, 3:52pm; Reply: 67
I am trusting Ruthiegirl and her caring for ther childrens health..

I am coming back to kids needing change in their life at athat age.. In europe kids start living with families that are near their place of work.. kids learn from such experiences more then just how to get along, but also how to care for their families and do what is expected of them.  They have a great deal more expected responcibilities, .. and then they feel important enough to make sense out of life..

This kid needs some volunteer jobs paid by mom at 1 dollar per hour.. with which she then can buy things to start school with.. No working against mom all summer and expecting gifts to start school to come from MOM.  

A visit by dad for a while might be a good test to compare loving family.. and get the message that mom is best..  

I trust this MOM .. this is the kid own idea of somehow getting even.. When school starts she will get up - I am certain of that.. that will be prof that this is all self inflicted.. time will tell..

IF she went to on over seas trip and returned then she would have to stay up the first few days and then get back to normal.. if the whole wolrd can function like that, so can this 15 year old.. or bring her to her pediatrician.. let her have a talk away from mom.. just to be certain..

Patience!    and stay being good to your self.. ;D
Posted by: ruthiegirl, Tuesday, July 26, 2011, 7:07pm; Reply: 68
Goldie- your advice is  so far from my situation that it just doens't apply. I don't HAVE the money to pay her $1 an hour to do household chores. Nor do I buy her everything she wants for back to school. Each teenager gets $20 a month allowance, and that has to cover all of their clothing (including shoes, coats, underwear, etc) too. It's not really enough, but it's all I can afford right now. They can make do with less (fewer items, shop at thrift stores instead of the mall, etc) or get their own money from jobs or dip into their bank accounts (they got LOTS of gifts for their Bat Mitzvahs at age 12.)

I know she'll  get up for school when school starts, but that's no guarantee that she'll be able to fall asleep at night, or that she won't become ill from extreme sleep deprivation. DD2 really doesn't like her pediatrician, and wouldn't have a "nice frank talk with her without Mom there." If I'm not part of the conversation, she won't bring it up. That already happened a few weeks ago when she was there for her annual checkup. I was thinking of asking the ped to order some lab tests and then dragging DD2 to the lab to have the tests actually done, without making her actually talk to the ped again.
Posted by: Goldie, Tuesday, July 26, 2011, 10:14pm; Reply: 69
ok that leaves me with another suggestion.. If volunteer work elsewhere is not possible to give her reasons to get up, and if it is not 'will' but maybe 'ill' that leaves a sleep study.. or I might try hypnosis to break through.. I know of a fab person in your neck of the woods.. ..

I will send you a pm..  
Posted by: 13602 (Guest), Wednesday, July 27, 2011, 2:37am; Reply: 70
Perhaps you could take her to someone who specialises in BTD or GTD ??

Traditional paediatricians did nothing for me and I have only just found help now (at 19.5!)

Why don't you talk to Eric and he might be able to recommend someone ??? :)

I've seen so many people and most of them had absolutely no idea how to help me (or what was wrong with me) !!
Posted by: Goldie, Wednesday, July 27, 2011, 10:45am; Reply: 71
who Eric? ??)     But - this mom is doing BTD..

As for volunteering.. could she be dissapointed to the point of depression, becasue she can not find a job?  I can see where that is possible, as children feel the overall depression the world is n right now..

I PM you..
Posted by: 13602 (Guest), Thursday, July 28, 2011, 5:17am; Reply: 72
@ Goldie, Oh i just meant someone who is into alternative/integrative practice ...

All of the 'regular' doctors/specialists I saw were not all that helpful !


I just thought there may be someone (with an open mind) in her area that could help :)
Posted by: nowishow, Friday, July 29, 2011, 8:33pm; Reply: 73
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Posted by: nowishow, Friday, July 29, 2011, 8:47pm; Reply: 74
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