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BTD Forums  /  Journal Club and Literature Review  /  CFS caused by dyregulation of H2S metabolism
Posted by: TJ, Saturday, February 5, 2011, 4:47pm
http://www.cfids-cab.org/MESA/Lemle.pdf
Posted by: Lola, Saturday, February 5, 2011, 5:12pm; Reply: 1
http://www.4yourtype.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ED067H
Posted by: TJ, Saturday, February 5, 2011, 6:12pm; Reply: 2
Um, thanks?
Posted by: Lloyd, Saturday, February 5, 2011, 6:49pm; Reply: 3
Looked at the article.

It is an interseting hypothesis. At this point that is all it is. Offhand I know nothing about hydrogren sulfide in the biological process or what pathways are involved. That would be the first step to helping with the regulation.
Posted by: Dr. D, Saturday, February 5, 2011, 9:50pm; Reply: 4
Thanks TJ. Hadn't seen that.

We test for it in the clinic. BTD and GTD definitely bring it under control.

IFHI 2009 folks may want to check their notes!
Posted by: Andrea AWsec, Saturday, February 5, 2011, 9:51pm; Reply: 5
;)

What is the deal with gluthione? ( I am certain I misspelled it)
Posted by: 8717 (Guest), Sunday, February 6, 2011, 3:36am; Reply: 6
I tried to read the article, it was a bit over my head, but I have experienced
the type of gas mentioned that smells like rotten eggs and suffer from bouts
of fatigue.   Sounds explorer  like,   and if I want to avoid gas at work, I avoid eggs, and beans for that matter.
So what does it mean in your words TJ?
Posted by: Lola, Sunday, February 6, 2011, 7:49am; Reply: 7
Quoted Text
IFHI 2009 folks may want to check their notes!


Bio-electrical impedance analysis
and breath hydrogen test
Phase angle
Posted by: Kumar, Sunday, February 6, 2011, 9:57am; Reply: 8
Sounds a strong research!
Posted by: Captain_Janeway, Sunday, February 6, 2011, 5:03pm; Reply: 9
Quoted from Andrea AWsec
;)

What is the deal with gluthione? ( I am certain I misspelled it)


It's a very powerful antioxidant involved in the p450 cytochrome system



Read more here

http://tuberose.com/Liver_Detoxification.html

.
Posted by: TJ, Sunday, February 6, 2011, 7:50pm; Reply: 10
YW Dr. D!

Paula, part of the reason I posted was because I thought it would be of interest to others here.  The other part was because I'm not sure what to make of it myself, and was also hoping for someone to explain the sequence of events in plain English!
Posted by: amill, Monday, February 7, 2011, 1:38am; Reply: 11
Wow!

Janeway,   thats an awesome article.  Time to up my milk thistle.
Posted by: amill, Monday, February 7, 2011, 1:46am; Reply: 12
OH!, and the cfs article is good too
Posted by: amill, Monday, February 7, 2011, 2:15am; Reply: 13
Quoted Text
YW Dr. D!

Paula, part of the reason I posted was because I thought it would be of interest to others here.  The other part was because I'm not sure what to make of it myself, and was also hoping for someone to explain the sequence of events in plain English!


ok, here's a quick write up. All of which is totally my uneducated opinion  ;D

hydrogen sulfide toxicity leads to an inability to utilize ATP(energy molecule), possibly through a few different mechanisms.  Some of this sulfide in needed by the body :), but higher levels produced in the gut by various bad guys :o(bacteria and stuff) prevent your cells from using the Energy molecule ATP >:(.  The body is then forced to use the "oxygen to energy" (aerobic) pathways to Partially make up the lake of energy in your cells :-/.  Thus leaving you feeling tired and possibly out of breath :o.

hmm.  also. where talking about cells in general here.

so just think what happens when liver cells can't do there job,
or muscle cells,
or brain cells,
or thyroid cells,
or,  well you get the picture.

Recap

Foul Guts => excessive H2S  => CFS.

man i just love the stuff i find in here.
  
Posted by: Lola, Monday, February 7, 2011, 6:57am; Reply: 14
related topic
http://www.dadamo.com/B2blogs/blogs/index.php/2007/02/06/oh-the-humanity?blog=24
Posted by: TJ, Monday, February 7, 2011, 5:56pm; Reply: 15
Thanks, amill!
Posted by: Symbi, Sunday, April 3, 2011, 8:10am; Reply: 16
Thanks for sharing TJ - just read it now reviving this old thread.  
Quoted from amill

The body is then forced to use the "oxygen to energy" (aerobic) pathways to Partially make up the lake of energy in your cells :-/.  Thus leaving you feeling tired and possibly out of breath :o.


Thanks for translating Amil but I think you mean it's forced to use ANaerobic pathways (that produces nasty byproducts in the body) for energy production not aerobic (which use oxygen) because there isn't oxygen available.  Don't understand all of it but that's how I read it  Here's a bit from the article:

Quoted Text
If poisoning renders mitochondria inefficient,
one would expect cells to shift to anaerobic mechanisms, a
shift that has been reported for CFS patients


Confirmed that hydrogen sulphide is a product of anaerobic metabolism on this gross page.
Quoted Text
Anaerobic organisms, originating in the gastrointestinal tract and respiratory system, begin to transform carbohydrates, lipids, and proteins, to yield organic acids (propionic acid, lactic acid) and gases (methane, hydrogen sulphide, ammonia). The process of microbial proliferation within a body is referred to as putrefaction and leads to the second stage of decomposition, known as bloat.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition  
Making me bloat reading that!  ;)  (Can see a bit how the hydrogen breath test works to test bacteria in the gut.)

Recently read a book (trying to heal myself and research at same time) proposing anaerobic metabolism as a cause for fibromyalgia/CFS (which overlap and often occur together so I'll just call it fibromyalgia).  That anaerobic metabolism, due to lack of oxygen, produces lactic acid as a byproduct, which builds up and causes pain in the muscles and tender points.  (Might be why the day after intense exercise is often painful).  I think it mentioned lack of glutathione as a reason and viruses / bacteria / fungi.  Probably all the same things that lead to hydrogen sulphide build up?!    We, the enlightened, know that nonnies are prone to fibromyalgia and often gut problems / leaky gut and lower immune system overall so it all seems to fit.  I add that fibro sufferers often have bad circulation which may be another cause of the low oxygen and acid buildup.

This page says it's not lactic acid buildup but some other acid that is produced.  So all of the above may be a simplification
Quoted Text


The acidosis that is associated with increases in lactate concentration during heavy exercise arises from a separate reaction. When ATP is hydrolysed, a hydrogen ion is released. ATP-derived hydrogen ions are responsible primarily for the decrease in pH. During intense exercise, aerobic metabolism cannot produce ATP quickly enough to supply the demands of the muscle. As a result, anaerobic metabolism becomes the dominant energy-producing pathway, as it can form ATP at high rates. Due to the large amounts of ATP being produced and hydrolysed in a short period of time, the buffering systems of the tissues are overcome, causing pH to fall and creating a state of acidosis, a natural process that facilitates the easier dissociation of oxyhaemoglobin and allows easier transfer of oxygen from the blood.[9]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_metabolism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid_fermentation

Here's a website that talks about this theory for CFS/Fibromyalgia and my current fave lysine (oh no not that AGAIN!) as a cure as it might be caused by herpes viruses.  Also proposes MSM helps oxygen transport (interesting!)  :)  http://www.krysalis.net/chronicfatigue.htm
IMHO there isn't just one reason for fibromyalgia and seems to be a few types.  Brain tired now  :)
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, April 5, 2011, 5:24am; Reply: 17
Now I'm wondering if this has a connection to my difficulty with onions.
Posted by: Possum, Tuesday, April 5, 2011, 5:51am; Reply: 18
I would say so TJ from what my experience & research...also garlic with some ppl perhaps? :-/
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, April 5, 2011, 6:03am; Reply: 19
Yeah, I think garlic is a problem too, but I use such a small amount (compared to onions) that it's not a big deal.  Yet broccoli, another high-sulfur food, doesn't seem to cause any trouble at all! ??)
Posted by: amill, Tuesday, April 5, 2011, 9:50am; Reply: 20
Quoted Text
Thanks for translating Amil but I think you mean it's forced to use ANaerobic pathways (that produces nasty byproducts in the body) for energy production not aerobic (which use oxygen) because there isn't oxygen available.  Don't understand all of it but that's how I read it  Here's a bit from the article


ok. ok, yep.  I miss read something there. ::)  There's a decrease in atp synthesis and an in ability to utilize oxygen.  So  your forced to use anaerobic.  wow that sucks.
Posted by: Symbi, Tuesday, April 5, 2011, 11:37pm; Reply: 21
Could be a blocked phenol sulfur-transferase (PST) pathway? TJ and Possum.  

http://www.enzymestuff.com/epsomsalts.htm

Oh boy was I sulphur gassy after a lentil soup where I skipped the soaking step for times sake.  Phew - have to air out the house now!  :B :)

I take glucosamine sulphate that supplies some sulphate.  I swear I'm handling more salicylates now taking more magnesium so I don't know how that's linked but it's all linked somehow.  Getting less headaches is great!  Still amines bother me but that's another story.

Amill - no worries thought you did a good job of translating and probably understood more of it than I did!
Posted by: TJ, Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 4:04am; Reply: 22
Quoted from Symbi
Could be a blocked phenol sulfur-transferase (PST) pathway? TJ and Possum.

Maybe, but I'm thinking I have more of a problem with sulfite oxidase.  Anything preserved with sulfites or bisulfites is a fast track to a bad headache and fatigue/brain fog.
Posted by: Symbi, Thursday, April 7, 2011, 1:39am; Reply: 23
We'll understand it all one day I hope!  TJ - I think it's all related since the body needs sulphate to break down sulphites from what I understand!  ??)
Posted by: TJ, Thursday, April 7, 2011, 2:19am; Reply: 24
Yeah, everything is connected, no doubt about that.
Posted by: Symbi, Thursday, June 2, 2011, 2:26am; Reply: 25
Hope you read this TJ.  Stumbled on this latest research article:

http://www.uq.edu.au/research/index.html?page=52600&pid=0 - UQ researcher finds sulphate levels linked to health disorders

Quoted Text
Very little is known about the mineral but low sulphate levels have been found to affect growth development. They have also been linked to diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, schizophrenia, autism, motor neurone disease and cirrhosis of the liver.

“The kidneys control the levels of many minerals in the body and we've isolated a gene, Nas1, which plays a key role in sulphate absorption from the diet and regulates its excretion into the urine,” Dr Markovich said.

“Most sulphate in the body comes from food and if there is too much, which is generally the case in Western diets, the excess is excreted.

“But when the Nas1 gene is missing, the body excretes large amounts of sulphate and blood levels drop to five times lower than normal.”


The things that are being uncovered nowadays - fascinating times!
Posted by: TJ, Thursday, June 2, 2011, 4:26pm; Reply: 26
Interesting article Symbi.  Thanks for sharing!  I guess if you pair up deficient sulfite oxidase with a missing Nas1, it would be no surprise if detoxification is very slow.  Sounds very Explorer-ish to me.
Posted by: Symbi, Thursday, June 2, 2011, 11:16pm; Reply: 27
Exactly what I was thinking!  The associated diseases are pretty familiar, except the Alzheimers and Parkinsons - hopefully ones we'll skip! What was I saying? he he
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