Print Topic - Archive

BTD Forums  /  Live Right 4 Your Type  /  Why were Indians so sensitive to Alcohol?
Posted by: Still, Saturday, September 27, 2008, 3:38pm
This has puzzled me since I thought of it a couple of years ago;  why were the American Indians so sensitive and vulnerable to alcoholic beverages?  We were taught that they had no alcoholic beverages before the "coming of the white man."  BUT WHY?  

Alcohol has been around in history forEVER ! ... it occurs naturally when things ferment.  NOAH got drunk 3000 years ago or thereabouts;  so WHY, WHY, WHY didn't the "pre-white-man" American Indians have alcoholic beverages??

Anybody?
Posted by: jayneeo, Saturday, September 27, 2008, 4:52pm; Reply: 1
Still (great name!)
I have often wondered that too. My DH is a wine freak and reads about stuff like the origins of wine and other alcoholic beverages, such as mead, distilled grains, (mesoamericans made pulque), etc.
Posted by: Lola, Saturday, September 27, 2008, 11:50pm; Reply: 2
http://www.dadamo.com/forum/archivea/config.pl?read=73905
Quoted Text
"David Chetlahay Paladin was an native American Indian ,a Navaho, who grew up on the reservation in the southwest. When he was 14 or 15 years old he
was a very serious alcoholic,...
Posted by: +Aan, Sunday, September 28, 2008, 6:00am; Reply: 3
My DH is part Indian and alcoholism runs in his family. They may not have needed liquor pre white man because of pot and peyote. Even smoking was considered sacred ( I believe?)...Aani
Posted by: Amazone I., Sunday, September 28, 2008, 7:24am; Reply: 4
arent they mostly O's ??) And might it be that gathere's are perhaps their main genes? Or just a form of mix between gatherers' and hunters' but also a lot of nonnies??).... ;) :D
but perhaps is that only a question of the big part of psyche??)..meant here is that this was the only way in not getting further broken in being obliged to accept that their tribes were mostly destroyed by others, their lands taken away for nothing and even were they given free to be shot coz they were only natives??)... :-/ a question of a complete other understanding how to treat mother nature and humans as well.... :o(think)(whistle)

a question of the collective unconsciousness??)....(shrug)(smartyp)
Posted by: Dr. D, Sunday, September 28, 2008, 10:41am; Reply: 5
Mostly O's, lot of non-secretors..
Posted by: 1323 (Guest), Sunday, September 28, 2008, 12:15pm; Reply: 6
My first guess would be 'Corn.'  But maybe that's cause they are mostly O's.

Ever know a vegetarian Indian?  
Posted by: Ribbit, Sunday, September 28, 2008, 12:36pm; Reply: 7
I don't know very many.  But the few I've known were more interested (and understandably so!) in heritage than in health.
Posted by: 815 (Guest), Sunday, September 28, 2008, 2:33pm; Reply: 8
The native Americans that gave us corn, were not as healthy as the native Americans in the old west then? I wonder if there are any studies on it?

I greatly admire native Americans. They are the only people that only took what they needed from the land and gave back to it. Now, I read the drug dealers have them and people that try to go in and help them are killed.
Posted by: RedLilac, Sunday, September 28, 2008, 3:10pm; Reply: 9
I recall reading about the differences in the bodies in ancient burial grounds like Cahokia showed a decline in their bones & teeth after corn was introduced.  
Posted by: jayneeo, Sunday, September 28, 2008, 6:26pm; Reply: 10
I have heard there is a gene for alcoholism....and they have it....
Posted by: Victoria, Sunday, September 28, 2008, 6:44pm; Reply: 11
When you consider how the modern Native American diet is so wrong from a BTD standpoint, it's not hard to see how severe imbalances in their bodies can make them even more susceptible to addiction.

And, as Isa speculated, there may be a very large percentage of Gatherers, who do not handle alcohol well, at all.  And they are easily caught in the craving/compulsion loop.
Posted by: TJ, Monday, September 29, 2008, 1:30am; Reply: 12
I've heard that many are missing the gene(s) needed to metabolize alcohol efficiently...like Explorers?
Posted by: Ribbit, Monday, September 29, 2008, 1:30am; Reply: 13
I know what corn does to my B husband.  If Os react anything like Bs to corn, I can understand why they have certain tendencies.
Posted by: Still, Monday, September 29, 2008, 11:34am; Reply: 14
I was wondering WHY the "pre-white-man" or "pre-exposure" North American Indians apparently did NOT drink alcohol or distill alcohol.  

Link to "The Genographic Project," by National Geographic:
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/
the "human journey" shows humans traveling across Asia and into the Americas about 60,000 years ago (I was playing around with this one about a week ago, so that's as I recall).  ... well, that would've been well before the Pentateuch (including story of Noah) was written.  Alcohol has been used by humans in OTHER cultures for a long, long time, though.

Perhaps it just never occurred to them to make the fermented fruits that MUST have occurred into a beverage(??) ...

Or, could it have been that the yeasts that ferment fruit into alcohol did not EXIST on the north and south American continents?  Did American Indians use any OTHER yeast products?  
Posted by: 815 (Guest), Monday, September 29, 2008, 12:58pm; Reply: 15
I feel like I have native american blood coming from my father's side because I passed down the O gene to my little son. It's a intuitive feeling, women have..sorry guys.  :P
Posted by: Ribbit, Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 12:52pm; Reply: 16
DH says ( ::) I wonder how many posts I've started with those two words) they most certainly had alcohol, but not distilled alcohol.  Distilling it just made them drunk faster.

He said they lack the alleles for the genes that metabolize alcohol.
Posted by: 815 (Guest), Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 12:56pm; Reply: 17
Quoted from Ribbit

He said they lack the alleles for the genes that metabolize alcohol.


The big question of this thread is why? Ask DH that question.
Posted by: JoanneO, Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 7:09pm; Reply: 18
I just finsihed reading a novel about an Ogala, northern plains Indian woman living between 1834 and 1879 witnessing the invasion of the white people and the decline of her civilization.  My question was in this reading was ....if the plains Indians who were O's and hunters/gathers  ( men hunted, women gathered) were not disturbed and could continue eating buffalo and other animals  and the few vegetables and fruits they gathered....and their sanitation was better and shelter better....how long could they have lived? It seems the diet of these people described by the author, was just about ideal for O's but their living conditions were not.

Her description of the effects of alcohol on a few of the men was really devestating.  Once started, it seemed they were powerless to stop. Even the earliest encounters.   It seems to me something strongly gentic was was playing out there.

Small pox from the whites had a terrible effect on the people too. Vulnerable Os also?  Reminded me of "1491" book club reading last year.    
Posted by: Amazone I., Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 7:47pm; Reply: 19
Ribbi, I merely guess thats mostly the fact of metabolizing faster or slower....the issue is called methylations... :o ;) :D ;D
Posted by: Maldo, Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 11:09am; Reply: 20
There seems to be a parallel with Australia aboriginals here.   When the white man showed up the alcohol and imported diseases decimated them.
From what I know they didnt make alcohol themselves but had a variety of other drugs and hallucogenics, all natural of course
Posted by: Ribbit, Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 11:54am; Reply: 21
Alright, here's DH's take in it.  He said when you have a fairly (relatively) small population interbreeding, with no new information, some genetic defects are going to pop up.  He said there's an area in China with the opposite "problem" (not much of a problem IMO!) where all the people are extremely tolerant of alcohol and they can drink and drink and drink and they metabolize it and don't get drunk.  Their genes adapted to be able to handle it.  The American Indians' genes did not.  He said it's really all "luck of the draw" so to speak (although I cringed when he said that, and you will understand why, Andrea) when it comes to small populations and what "pops up" genetically.

I don't metabolize alcohol very well.  If I have two glasses of wine with dinner I'll still be feeling it when I wake up during the night many hours later.  On an empty stomach I can't handle more than half a glass, and I feel it circulating on the first or second sip.

Lest we get too hasty in romanticizing American Indian lifestyle (and they did have some qualities worth admiring, like any people group), history also tells us they were savages.  The tribes were always at war with each other and didn't hesitate to wipe out an "enemy" if they wanted their land.  It wasn't all peaceful and calm and quiet on the Western front before white man arrived.  We didn't teach them the lovely practice of scalping.  They were already doing that with great relish when we arrived.
Posted by: 815 (Guest), Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 1:08pm; Reply: 22
Quoted from Ribbit
Alright, here's DH's take in it.  He said when you have a fairly (relatively) small population interbreeding, with no new information, some genetic defects are going to pop up.  We didn't teach them the lovely practice of scalping.  They were already doing that with great relish when we arrived.


That was me, not Andrea that asked Ribbit.. :) I of course didn't take into consideration the..uh interbreeding causing abnormalities. You also explained the Indiana Jones Raiders of the lost Ark, where Karen Allen drinks a "Chinese..Tibetan guy" under the table, and why the other guys were so amazed!

I know there were many savage tribes, but there were many peaceful ones as well, from  what I've read.

I don't metabolize alochol well either. I had 4 ounces after work on an empty stomach and my son had to drive.. :B
Posted by: dawgmama, Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 4:48pm; Reply: 23
Hey Ribbit and Diana, you are like me, a "cheap date"! :D  I can "feel" the effects of the alcohol after just a few sips too. My body is very sensitve to any type of medicine also.I rarely drink wine, even though I enjoy sipping it while I make supper, because even half a glass makes me so sleepy that I don't get anything done in the evening. Now I make myself a cup of tea and sip that instead. :)

My mom, an AB, is a lifelong alcoholic, as was her father. Hmmm..... another reason for me to avoid booze! ::)
Posted by: Ribbit, Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 5:07pm; Reply: 24
Sorry, Diana, for some reason Andrea's name was in my head.
Posted by: 815 (Guest), Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 5:21pm; Reply: 25
Quoted from dawgmama
Hey Ribbit and Diana, you are like me, a "cheap date"! :D  I can "feel" the effects of the alcohol after just a few sips too. My body is very sensitve to any type of medicine also.I rarely drink wine, even though I enjoy sipping it while I make supper, because even half a glass makes me so sleepy that I don't get anything done in the evening. Now I make myself a cup of tea and sip that instead. :)


Hi dawg, yes..we are "cheap dates" LOL.  I have to stick to coffee when I go out with a guy  :D  

You know my father, AB, was not an alchoholic, but he indulged. He had a stock of Seagram's royal crown, gin, vodka.  :X that I gave away. If you look in the album at me in the pics with him, you'll see him holding a high ball. (Canadian Club and ginger ale he liked at holidays and events.)  ::)  Me? I'm a pirate. I like rum.(drinks,balls,Italian pastries) I don't indulge very often..anymore, especially since I've been more health conscious..and reading what Dr. D says about alcohol..

That's ok Ms. Ribbit..I wouldn't mind being an RN
Posted by: Mrs T O+, Thursday, October 2, 2008, 12:55pm; Reply: 26
Someone told me of a study of no alcoholism among Greeks. I find that hard to believe. Does anyone have any info?
I used to wish I was part Indian & was disappointed to find out I was all European ancestry(as far as I know). I have a soft spot in my heart for them who suffered & now the gov't gives them casino licenses to further harm them.

Personally, I can't tolerate alcohol. Once I ate some mushrooms cooked in wine which wasn't cooked completely out & the next day I looked sick. I don't tell people what to drink, but I can't even tolerate milk!!
I live in an area with lots of bars which doesn't bother me. It's near a famous ballpark, so either they clebrate or drown their sorrows! Yesterday, it was a sad one!!!!
Posted by: Ribbit, Thursday, October 2, 2008, 1:05pm; Reply: 27
Oh, I'll drink a glass of wine with dinner out, I just have to go really slow until my food arrives.

I like rum too, Di.  It's the only thing "hard" I will drink.  Somehow nothing else appeals to me.
Posted by: Still, Thursday, October 2, 2008, 2:35pm; Reply: 28
Quoted from Ribbit
Alright, here's DH's take in it.  He said when you have a fairly (relatively) small population interbreeding, with no new information, some genetic defects are going to pop up.  


BUT even if it was a small population interbreeding,
a)  it wasn't THAT small, and there were more and more peoples coming into the American continents over about 50,000 years;

b)  even if this "genetic defect" DID pop up, it still doesn't explain why it TOOK OVER the Indian populations;

c)  why is there no history of the North American Indians even HAVING alcoholic beverages?  IF they had alcoholic beverages, then that genetic defect would have probably ... um ... receded ... out of the population, since its effect is apparently to disable when alcohol is available!

On the National Geographic Genographic Project webpage, (on the tab called "Atlas of the Human Journey") starting at 60,000 - 55,000 B.C., it shows a big white blob (I'm assuming that's glaciers) across the route that would have had to be taken by humans coming into the American continents across the Bering Straits.  The glaciers covered that area all the way up until 10,000 B.C. when a slim channel opens up through (but it was still probably darned cold)check it out (you can click on the little black squares on the timeline (the square turns gold-colored) to bring up the map for those years):
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html

... so ... hypothesis:  they tried to bring alcoholic beverages and yeasts but the yeasts couldn't survive the journey through the cold and there were no natural yeasts IN the early American continents.

another hypothesis:  only people who were intolerant of alcohol could survive the trip through the glaciated area for about 40,000 years ... hmmm.

okay, guys, more theories?

anyway, it's a fascinating question, IMHO!

Posted by: 815 (Guest), Thursday, October 2, 2008, 3:15pm; Reply: 29
Quoted from Ribbit

I like rum too, Di.  It's the only thing "hard" I will drink.  Somehow nothing else appeals to me.


Me too!  :o Is it a Warrior thing, or an A thing?

Posted by: goro1, Thursday, October 2, 2008, 4:41pm; Reply: 30
Mrs. T O+

Quoted from Mrs T O+
Someone told me of a study of no alcoholism among Greeks. I find that hard to believe. Does anyone have any info?


I don't have any study to back this up but I doubt that study highly.  I'm half Greek, half German and grew up in Cyprus and have known Greek alcoholics.  There could certainly be the case that there are fewer as growing up wine is an integral part of the culture and you are exposed from a young age and it really is no big deal to drink as there are no age limits (at least I didn't know any when I was growing up).

I can handle red wine pretty well (takes at least 3 glasses to get me tipsy) but no other alcohol - it tears my stomach to shreds.  But I will wake up in the middle of the night after drinking with bad insomnia so I really don't drink that much.  However I will enjoy the occasional half a glass while cooking.

Posted by: Sky, Sunday, October 5, 2008, 4:52pm; Reply: 31
Since Native Americans came about before A and B developed, they are Type O's, and that would likely also include lacking the A and B antigens, which Dr. D says are the main helpers in metabolizing a lot of ingested foodstuffs.

Since Type O's have a tendency towards sensation seeking, and alcoholism is a common addiction among type O's, this seems to fit that alcoholism would become a problem amongst the population, especially since there is no history of the use of it amongst the people.

Also remember that NA's don't grow facial hair. This is changing since the introduction of foriegn genes.

There were three migrations of people's into the Americas over successive time periods. 60,000 y o is when one of those migrations very likely took place.

There is genetic evidence of people from Europe traveling and interbreeding with NA's during the last ice age. And this is backed up by a certain arrowhead type.

There is also some evidence (facial hair on sculptures) of Asian travelers visiting the coast of South America.

"Apocalyptico" looks a lot more interesting now.
Posted by: Maldo, Monday, October 6, 2008, 1:32am; Reply: 32
Quoted from Still

... so ... hypothesis:  they tried to bring alcoholic beverages and yeasts but the yeasts couldn't survive the journey through the cold and there were no natural yeasts IN the early American continents.



Tim Flannary proposed something like this in his book The Last Frontier if I remember right.   He was specific with his opinion that migration moved into the Americas 13,500 years ago, over an ice bridge.    This book is quite stunning to read from a climate change point of view, by the way
Posted by: Ribbit, Monday, October 6, 2008, 1:35am; Reply: 33
Quoted from Sky


There is also some evidence (facial hair on sculptures) of Asian travelers visiting the coast of South America.



1421: The Year China Discovered America

http://books.shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38.l1313&_nkw=1421%3A+The+year+China+discovered+America&_sacat=267
Posted by: Sky, Wednesday, October 8, 2008, 3:50pm; Reply: 34
The "Star Fleet" it was called. And a PBS special about it talked about the claims of the journey, and how most were correct, but discovering the new world was a false claim by the author.
Posted by: jayneeo, Wednesday, October 8, 2008, 11:12pm; Reply: 35
I think a preference for rum has more to do with your generation....rum is "in" at the moment, with the "mojito", a delicious drink. Whiskey is old school, etc.
Strange testimonial:
As a "thrill-seeking"O, I tended to like my booze when younger (still would if intelligence hadn't intervened)....but nothing helped me balance my tendency to overindulge like wine tasting. My DH was totally into wine and wine tasting (2nd husband) and the more we pursued the tasting, with the discriminating of flavors and aromas, the less I drank. the less I drank the more discriminating I became. I owe my current relationship to alcohol(healthy) to wine tasting!!! ;D 8)
Posted by: Christopher, Thursday, October 9, 2008, 4:17pm; Reply: 36
I have a fair percentage of native traits(Ojibwa,Cherokee) like minimal facial hair,dark complexion,tall and lean.
I cant tolerate alcohol at all.
1 beer used to give me a buzz at 175 lbs bodyweight,2 beers would make me giddy and flushed! It was amusing to my wife and friends though. I dont drink at all anymore.
Posted by: Ribbit, Thursday, October 9, 2008, 5:40pm; Reply: 37
Interesting thought Jaynee.  I didn't know rum was "in".  All my friends my age live far, far away.  All my friends now are older than me.
Posted by: jayneeo, Thursday, October 9, 2008, 6:06pm; Reply: 38
I never would drink rum until the mojito became popular. It's quite refreshing. 8)
Posted by: Ribbit, Thursday, October 9, 2008, 6:14pm; Reply: 39
What's a mojito?
Posted by: 815 (Guest), Thursday, October 9, 2008, 6:43pm; Reply: 40
Rum, lime juice, fresh spearmint leaves and seltzer or club soda. You can add sugar if desired.
Posted by: Ribbit, Thursday, October 9, 2008, 6:44pm; Reply: 41
Oh!  Wow.  Hm.  *Mind spinning already*
Posted by: jayneeo, Thursday, October 9, 2008, 6:59pm; Reply: 42
and you "muddle" the mint leaves, (mash them). mmmm.
Posted by: Sarah, Thursday, October 9, 2008, 7:45pm; Reply: 43
Hi, newbie here.  Doesn't alcoholism have a link to hypoglycemia?  Sugar and alcohol act the same way in the body I've heard.  Maybe people who crave sugar are more likely to use alcohol.
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, October 9, 2008, 7:51pm; Reply: 44
craving is always a lack of something essential.....

a deficit of nutrients can catapult deeper issues, giving the person a false positive response......and creating a vicious unhealthy cycle.

we are very complex beings...... ;)
mind and body should work together
healthy mind in a healthy body, right?
Posted by: Sarah, Thursday, October 9, 2008, 8:05pm; Reply: 45
Yes, I agree, craving usually points to a deficiency.  I've found that a healthy body really helps the mind.  Eliminating wheat has done wonders for my mind.
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, October 9, 2008, 8:14pm; Reply: 46
glad you have already witnessed that!
results like those make compliance a breeze! :)
Posted by: Ribbit, Thursday, October 9, 2008, 11:15pm; Reply: 47
Sarah, I have read that as well.  My husband's grandfather drank himself to death.  Hypoglycemia (as well as diabetes) runs in his family.  DH thinks his low blood sugar is what drove him to drink.
Posted by: TJ, Friday, October 10, 2008, 5:54pm; Reply: 48
My father drank more than he should have when he was younger.  Fortunately, it didn't run or ruin his life, but I share the hypoglycemia issue with him.  His father drank too much too, and had a terrible temper.  I don't know if he also had hypoglycemia, but it's likely.
Posted by: Maldo, Saturday, October 11, 2008, 12:37am; Reply: 49
Quoted from Christopher
I have a fair percentage of native traits(Ojibwa,Cherokee) like minimal facial hair,dark complexion,tall and lean.
I cant tolerate alcohol at all.
1 beer used to give me a buzz at 175 lbs bodyweight,2 beers would make me giddy and flushed! It was amusing to my wife and friends though. I dont drink at all anymore.


Christopher, how do you respond to other drugs and pharmacuticals?    Do you have high aerobic or athletic capacity?
Posted by: Christopher, Saturday, October 11, 2008, 8:41pm; Reply: 50
Any kind of narcotic pain reliever messes me up pretty bad.
I have always engaged in strenuous weight lifting or martial arts.
Posted by: Still, Sunday, October 12, 2008, 12:02am; Reply: 51
I wonder if there would be a way to find out if the yeasts that create alcohol EXISTED in the New World before Mr. Columbus arrived in 1492??

As an aside, anybody on here try wine-making?  When we first moved into our present central northwest Arkansas abode in "dry" Newton County, a neighbor invited me to help her out in making wine from nearby wild woods grapes she had picked.  I had made a little wine in earlier years, so figured that the grapes would have the necessary yeasts ON their skins, and all that needed to be done was mash the grapes and add some water, let it ferment a few days, then strain off the liquids to ferment further into wine.  But after the wine had fermented to the point that it had stopped producing gas and could be capped, upon uncapping it to taste, it was BLLEHHHHHHH, musty and horrible tasting.  ... I haven't made wine from local grapes since.  ... could there have been some "nasty tasting invasive yeast" that spoiled any of the Indians' attempts to make alcohol?  ... another theory. :)
Posted by: Still, Sunday, October 12, 2008, 12:10am; Reply: 52
Quoted from Maldo


Tim Flannary proposed something like this in his book The Last Frontier if I remember right.   He was specific with his opinion that migration moved into the Americas 13,500 years ago, over an ice bridge.    This book is quite stunning to read from a climate change point of view, by the way


Maldo, I can't find that book online ... darn ...

Posted by: TJ, Sunday, October 12, 2008, 12:13am; Reply: 53
Still, that would probably be the invasive bacteria in the mix.  They produce lactic acid, which ruins the taste, if I understand correctly...I don't make or drink alcoholic drinks!
Posted by: Maldo, Sunday, October 12, 2008, 12:33am; Reply: 54
Quoted from Still


Maldo, I can't find that book online ... darn ...



Sorry, its The Eternal Frontier

[url] http://www.amazon.com/Eternal-Frontier-Ecological-History-America/dp/0871137895 [/url]

He's written a few books and the other one I really like is The Future Eaters, which is about the evolution and anthropology of Australia, New Zealand and Pacific Islands,
Posted by: Ribbit, Sunday, October 12, 2008, 1:01am; Reply: 55
This is from my geneticist husband who knows all sorts of ... well, STUFF, for lack of a better word:

Indians did have alcohol.  They had fermented cactus beverages.  Ever eaten wild muscadines off the ground that sat there too long?  They taste alcoholic to me!  There are places in South or Central America (help me out, Lola) where the old ladies sit around and chew wads of bread, then let it sit out in the sun and ferment.  Then everybody comes along and enjoys them later.

Y'all are arguing Lamarkian evolution* (e.g. there was no alcohol here, therefore they didn't develop the ability to metabolize alcohol.) The fact that there's so little alcohol tolerance among them is really a product of "dumb luck"--In reality Native American populations have the lowest genetic diversity of any population the world.  (This is why our diseases knocked them out.)  They all came from a very small founding population in Northeast Asia (Siberia area).

*The inheritance of acquired characteristics:  if you cut the tails off mice for many generations, their tails get shorter.  This is obviously not true.

Of course they had yeasts.  The wind blows all around the earth.  The wind carries sand and dust from the Sahara desert (millions of tons a year) and dumps it all over the Caribbean.  
Posted by: Lola, Sunday, October 12, 2008, 3:02am; Reply: 56
Pulque is a made from the fermented juice of the maguey,
http://www.nicks.com.au/index.aspx?link_id=76.1261
Posted by: Vicki, Sunday, October 12, 2008, 2:27pm; Reply: 57
More ways to ferment:

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/8816
Posted by: RedLilac, Sunday, October 12, 2008, 3:25pm; Reply: 58
Quoted from 815


Hi dawg, yes..we are "cheap dates" LOL.  I have to stick to coffee when I go out with a guy  :D  

You know my father, AB, was not an alchoholic, but he indulged. He had a stock of Seagram's royal crown, gin, vodka.  :X that I gave away. If you look in the album at me in the pics with him, you'll see him holding a high ball. (Canadian Club and ginger ale he liked at holidays and events.)  ::)  Me? I'm a pirate. I like rum.(drinks,balls,Italian pastries) I don't indulge very often..anymore, especially since I've been more health conscious..and reading what Dr. D says about alcohol..

That's ok Ms. Ribbit..I wouldn't mind being an RN


I got into this thread late the quote is from #25 but I just had to remark.  Your AB Father drank Canadian Club and ginger ale mine CC Manhattan.

I can out drink my son when we go on vacations where I allow myself to indulge when Im not driving, staying in a hotel and no co-workers or neighbors around.  His friends tease him because after 2 or 3 beers he falls asleep in his chair. Forget hard alcohol, he gets very drunk very fast.  Like   Diana, I like rum. I also drink wine, I cant stand beer.  I think it is because I am a non-secretor and my son is a secretor.  I would bet my Father was a non-secretor also.  The NA were also secretors.
Posted by: Lola, Sunday, October 12, 2008, 4:07pm; Reply: 59
great link! thanks Vicki!

no chicha or whatever it s called for me, thanks!!! ;)
Posted by: Ribbit, Monday, October 13, 2008, 2:50am; Reply: 60
That's interesting.  I wonder if sercretor status plays a part in alcoholism.
Posted by: Schluggell, Monday, October 13, 2008, 1:09pm; Reply: 61
Alcohol: 1543, "fine powder produced by sublimination," from M.L. alcohol "powdered ore of antimony," from Arabic al-kuhul "kohl," the fine metallic powder used to darken the eyelids, from kahala "to stain, paint." The al- is the Arabic definite article, "the." "Powdered cosmetic" was the earliest sense in Eng.; definition broadened 1672 to "any subliminated substance, the pure spirit of anything." Modern sense of "intoxicating ingredient in strong liquor" is first recorded 1753, short for alcohol of wine, which was extended to "the intoxicating element in fermented liquors." In organic chemistry, the word was extended 1850 to the class of compounds of the same type as this. Alcoholism "disease of alcohol addiction" is from 1852; alcoholic "one who is addicted to drinking in excess" is from 1891.

Inebriate: 1447, originally an adj., from L. inebriatus, pp. of inebriare "to make drunk," from in- "in" + ebriare "make drunk," from ebrius "drunk," of unknown origin. The verb meaning "to intoxicate" is first recorded 1497.

Which coincides better with the distilled products of higher concentration being cheap enough for common people to afford.
There certainly was distillates used before this, but commonly would have been diluted.

But then there is even the possibility of a Thiamin Deficiency {Vitamin B1}...

Certainly 'fermented products' would not have been unknown to them - But I can think of a few native cultures with taboos for even touching such things. But I guess none really explains the WHY?...
Posted by: jayneeo, Monday, October 13, 2008, 5:28pm; Reply: 62
there is a genetic trait of not being able to metabolize alcohol via the liver....I saw an article on this recently, but where? and that it was common in Native Americans.....its like one gene...

Interesting what Schlugell noted about "the sublimated" part of substances...like how we call alcohol "spirits"...
Posted by: RedLilac, Monday, October 13, 2008, 8:25pm; Reply: 63
Quoted from Ribbit
That's interesting.  I wonder if sercretor status plays a part in alcoholism.


One of Dr Ds books said that liquor was beneficial to non-secretors in moderation.   The caveat was that non-secretors were also highly susceptible to alcoholism.
Posted by: 815 (Guest), Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 2:16pm; Reply: 64
Quoted from RedLilac

I got into this thread late – the quote is from #25 but I just had to remark.  Your AB Father drank Canadian Club and ginger ale mine CC Manhattan.


Canadian Club must be an AB thing huh?  :D My father's other fav drink was a Manhattan with a cherry.  I tend to be more like my mother as far as alcohol. I like the occasional rum drink when going out to a nice place for dinner, if not driving...yeah a really nice place. how often does that happen ? ::) I usually have 1 glass of wine a week..It makes me too tired and depressed if I drink more than that. Before GTD when I was eating SAD, I'd have 2-3 glasses a week. Seems I'm more sensitive now on GTD. OR, it's M.
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 2:58pm; Reply: 65
Quoted from jayneeo
I have heard there is a gene for alcoholism....and they have it....

As Dr. D. said, it is that there are a lot of nons in the native American population.  Non-secretorhood comes bundled with the gene that makes one sensitive to alcohol.  All part of the chromosomal software "suite".

:( O non with a strong family history of alcoholism, OUT!  Back IN to say, I stay away from the stuff, personally.  Staring down the barrel of alcoholism is too scary.  I don't care to test fate, ya know?  Not when it comes to alcoholism.  I've seen what it does to individuals and families up close and personal.
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 3:01pm; Reply: 66
Quoted from Victoria
When you consider how the modern Native American diet is so wrong from a BTD standpoint, it's not hard to see how severe imbalances in their bodies can make them even more susceptible to addiction.

And, as Isa speculated, there may be a very large percentage of Gatherers, who do not handle alcohol well, at all.  And they are easily caught in the craving/compulsion loop.

Yup.  They never had a shot outta the gate.  I mean, if you are living in the modern American complete surround-sound experience of Budweiser and Fritos, and you are a Native American Type O non-secretor Gatherer...  :(  Well, put it this way, your system is going to be inundated with substances it was never designed to handle.  Then again, that pretty much applies to all of us when it comes to the modern food supply, but Native Americans are especially sensitive to substances like alcohol and high-fructose corn syrup.

Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 3:11pm; Reply: 67
Quoted from 815
Rum, lime juice, fresh spearmint leaves and seltzer or club soda. You can add sugar if desired.

:D Okay, with those ingredients, how bad could it be?!  Good thing I never tried that, or me thinks I would have ended up having one too many!!!  Um UM, that sounds good right about now...

...but I'll stick to my kukicha and peppermint tea mix.   ;D

Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 3:18pm; Reply: 68
Quoted from Sarah
Hi, newbie here.  Doesn't alcoholism have a link to hypoglycemia?  Sugar and alcohol act the same way in the body I've heard.  Maybe people who crave sugar are more likely to use alcohol.

Dr. Christiane Northrup, a fascinating, highly-intelligent, intuitive, educated, experienced, skilled, knowledgeable and wise human who is a doctor, writer and lecturer/teacher on PBS, makes the anecdotal observation that, in her OB/Gyn practice, virtually all the adult children of alcoholics she has as patients are one of two things:  either they are alcoholics themselves OR they are carbohydrate addicts, as in SUGAR.  You are so right that the two are very, very similar as is our body's reaction to them.  A sensitivity to one is probably linked to a sensitivity to the other.
_______________________________________
P.S.  edited to add:  How rude of me!  Sarah, welcome to the BTD forum!!!  (woot)
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 3:24pm; Reply: 69
Quoted from Lola
we are very complex beings...... ;)
mind and body should work together
healthy mind in a healthy body, right?

So true.  Balance is a very intricate, delicate thing.  For some of us, when it comes to our biochemistry, we are born "balance-challenged".  What I treasure most about the BTD (and GTD--the D'Adamo diet systems, basically) is that, if followed to the T, it brings even the most challenged of us into that wonderful place of biochemical balance.
Posted by: 794 (Guest), Thursday, October 16, 2008, 6:17pm; Reply: 70
I just think, they eat a lot of traditional food which just isn't that great for them as far as genotype goes but it has traditional significance.  My family is hispanic and our traditional food is green chili. We sit down at the table eating the stuff and saying "Yeah this is GOOOD", and after a while our heads start itching and we get several other reactions from it but, it's something that brings us closer at the dinner table, a tradition we can laugh about.  It's imperfection at it's best ;D.
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, October 16, 2008, 9:17pm; Reply: 71
Os are more prevalent among Hispanics......
and yes, chile rules!! :)
Posted by: JohnW, Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:22pm; Reply: 72
This is a little off subject and a little late in the thread but it is a reply to an earlier post.The history books that I have read indicate that the Native Americans did indeed learn scalping from the white Eureopans.If i remember correctly it was from the French,whom the Native Americans thought to be at the time strong fighters and advasaries.The emulation was the sincerest form of flattery.
Posted by: honeybee, Friday, October 17, 2008, 1:35am; Reply: 73
;D
I like to try emulate the frenchies too John; for their cultivation of cheeses, good-wines and slow-cooking is legendary besdies scalping ;). I am an advocate of the Bnon/Gatherer version of the Mediterranean-diet -for my strength!
Posted by: Schluggell, Friday, October 17, 2008, 12:58pm; Reply: 74
[quote=1269]This is a little off subject and a little late in the thread but it is a reply to an earlier post...If i remember correctly it was from the French,whom the Native Americans thought to be at the time strong fighters and advasaries.../quote]

I was tryiing to figure out a good way to say that too. As all books are the story of the conqueror over succeding time...we will never know the whole truth. And there is no such thing 'Indian Nation' in the singualr anyway...There were even more Indian Nations at that time than there is now. All with different customs & languages & skills.
With the Blood-Type & Genotypes varying even amongst different tribes {albeit probably very little} - I doubt the Science did any thing to realize variations between the different phenotypes.
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Friday, October 17, 2008, 2:34pm; Reply: 75
Quoted from 794
I just think, they eat a lot of traditional food which just isn't that great for them as far as genotype goes but it has traditional significance.  My family is hispanic and our traditional food is green chili. We sit down at the table eating the stuff and saying "Yeah this is GOOOD", and after a while our heads start itching and we get several other reactions from it but, it's something that brings us closer at the dinner table, a tradition we can laugh about.  It's imperfection at it's best ;D.

You make a very profound point, as sometimes it is worth a little imperfection, healthwise, in our diet, to maintain a tradition.  Then again, often there are substitutes that are good for our particular blood and/or genotypes that are just as good if not better than the original.  But in some situations, the original part of a tradition is important and even trumps eating the ideal perfect foods for our health, especially if it is something that we don't eat every day.  Like for example, I don't drink alcohol (good example considering the thread topic *lol*), but if I am at a traditional Passover seder, in which at several points in the going, wine is an important part of the ritual, I will drink some along with everyone else (unless non-alcoholic grape juice is offered as an alternative, which sometimes it is).  Now, if I were an alcoholic, of course I wouldn't.  But since I "merely" have a strong family history of it, I figure participating in the full, beautiful tradition of a Passover Seder a few times in my lifetime won't kill me off, and, more importantly, it is something I want to do.  The few times I've had the chance to do it, I've chosen to partake in the full, surround-sound experience.  It all comes down to the individual, as so much about the BTD/GTD lifestyle and world view does:  I can't make a blanket statement that making ideal diet choices for our health is always more important in every situation than tradition thus we should always maintain 100% compliance, or conversely that tradition is more important than health and thus we should chill out and eat some chilis.  It depends on the individual, the state of that person's health, what tradition we are talking about, how important is it to the person, how rare would the indulgence be, are there good substitute choices readily available, etc.

There are no easy, pat answers with the BTD/GTD lifestyle because it is all about individual choices that customize diet in tandem with our HOLISTIC lives (which also include cultures and families and traditions, etc., along with health, of course, which is a profoundly important consideration and for many people at most times the most important one).

Very complex and complicated, living this lifestyle, as it requires thinking things through, knowing yourself and what is important to you, recognizing that your priorities might not be the same at all times in all situations, and making your own choices.  Challenging, but very liberating and health-inducing on many levels.

:)

Posted by: 815 (Guest), Friday, October 17, 2008, 5:48pm; Reply: 76
Quoted from Peppermint Twist

Then again, often there are substitutes that are good for our particular blood and/or genotypes that are just as good if not better than the original.  But in some situations, the original part of a tradition is important and even trumps eating the ideal perfect foods for our health, especially if it is something that we don't eat every day.


I agree. And the only thing I'm going to say about that is I'm Italian and we have our traditions also.  IMHO, we are raised the tradition of our mother's. Since my mother was Italian, I was raised on Italian, Mediterranean food.  I always wondered how Dr. D could give up tomato sauce, being Italian. But, his mother was Spanish, right? So I'm thinking he didn't eat pasta, much. It's soooo hard.  :'(  (Kind of like "Oh, sure, it's easy for you to say Dr. D!..." Juvenile, of me but it helps me when I cheat..lol..)Cheat? Me? Never!

But getting back to alcohol, do you feel anything when you do partake of the wine? Like, "OMG this is wonderful, I must have more?" I mean just because the alcoholism is in your family doesn't mean you're affected..IMO.  :) Also, is it an O thing too? Are the percentages of alcoholics more O's?
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Friday, October 17, 2008, 7:00pm; Reply: 77
Quoted from 815


I agree. And the only thing I'm going to say about that is I'm Italian and we have our traditions also.  IMHO, we are raised the tradition of our mother's. Since my mother was Italian, I was raised on Italian, Mediterranean food.  I always wondered how Dr. D could give up tomato sauce, being Italian. But, his mother was Spanish, right? So I'm thinking he didn't eat pasta, much. It's soooo hard.  :'(  (Kind of like "Oh, sure, it's easy for you to say Dr. D!..." Juvenile, of me but it helps me when I cheat..lol..)Cheat? Me? Never!

But getting back to alcohol, do you feel anything when you do partake of the wine? Like, "OMG this is wonderful, I must have more?" I mean just because the alcoholism is in your family doesn't mean you're affected..IMO.  :) Also, is it an O thing too? Are the percentages of alcoholics more O's?

It's more of a non-secretor thing, which I am.  The alcoholism gene is on both sides of my family but extremely so on my dad's side.  My dad was one of five brothers and sisters and they ALL but possibly one are alcoholics or recovering alcoholics.  That is four out of five.  His dad was an alcoholic, too.

Anyway...not taking any chances there, thank you very much, because like I said I've seen up close and personal just what alcohol does to a person and family.  To answer your Q, I think when I stopped, I was not a full-blown alcoholic yet (my addiction is CARBS, baby), or anything even close, but I was showing some signs of having the potential to develop into one.  It isn't like I craved alcohol or ever drank alone or anything, but I started noticing that when I would drink socially, I would drink to excess.  Not good in context of the family history!  I did start to like it a little too much.  And one blessing about such a tragic family history is that I knew the possible warning signs and I also know, again, how devastating alcoholism is, so I opted to stop, whoa yes wait a minute Mr. Postman!  Better to stop while the stopping was good, ya know?  I mean, given the family history.  Not worth flirting with that lot.
Posted by: 815 (Guest), Friday, October 17, 2008, 7:20pm; Reply: 78
Quoted from Peppermint Twist

It's more of a non-secretor thing, which I am.  The alcoholism gene is on both sides of my family but extremely so on my dad's side.  My dad was one of five brothers and sisters and they ALL but possibly one are alcoholics or recovering alcoholics.  That is four out of five.  His dad was an alcoholic, too.


Oh.  I understand now.   :)
Posted by: 794 (Guest), Saturday, October 18, 2008, 10:06pm; Reply: 79
I try to stay away from wine, as it leads me to overindulgence and then beer and then hard liquor.  I tend to enjoy the relaxing foods too much.  
Posted by: greenman, Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 11:12am; Reply: 80
ribbit:
I don't metabolize alcohol very well.  If I have two glasses of wine with dinner I'll still be feeling it when I wake up during the night many hours later.  On an empty stomach I can't handle more than half a glass, and I feel it circulating on the first or second sip.

Mayflower:
I don't metabolize alochol well either. I had 4 ounces after work on an empty stomach and my son had to drivee

I am a type O+ and find that after some alcohol I do not sleep well or if I wake up I cannot get back to sleep. IS there an exact explanation for this? What I have enjoyed most about this er4ybt diet is that it has explained alot about past illnesses reactions etc a few aha moments.

On another point, I come from Ireland where we have a tinker/itinerent culture, alot of the priests claim that this culture cannot metabolise alcohol and quickly changes them into agressive manners. Theer would be some interbreeding here also in these communities. This is not from studies, it is just from their observations. The itinerent/tinker tradition would usually have a very poor diet and their lifespan is not as long as the settled community.
Posted by: 815 (Guest), Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 2:01pm; Reply: 81
Hi Greenman, welcome to the forum! Love your handle! My father's family originated from Ireland also..He was an AB and he didn't metabolize alcohol, well as in it affected his health. He could hold his liquor though.. I'm Irish, English and Scottish on his side.
Posted by: Chloe, Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 2:37pm; Reply: 82
Here's what happens to me on wine.  I drink a few sips and I feel all warm and calm.  Another
few sips and I'm starting to feel strangely silly and everything seems funny to me...even
maudlin subjects....  By the end of my third sip, I'm no longer happy and silly,
I'm starting to laugh at everything but I'm also ready to cry. I start feeling agitated like there
are huge creepy crawly things stuck in my body that have to get out...  If I actually drink the entire glass, I will have  to leave the table, go in the bathroom, sit down on the floor and cry for a few hours!  I cannot drink alcohol.  My father and his family could drink a lot of it.  My mother couldn't and one of my siblings can't.  If I were an alcoholic, I'm afraid I'd be placed  in a mental institution. My reaction to alcohol is pretty much like a person who is going berserk!

For resveratrol, I drink grape juice, and take the supplement.
Posted by: Lola, Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 10:28pm; Reply: 83
Quoted Text
IS there an exact explanation for this?


http://4yourtype.com/explorer.asp
enjoy reading about the other genotypes as well! ;)
Posted by: greenman, Thursday, November 27, 2008, 9:25am; Reply: 84
Mayflowers said
I don't indulge very often..anymore, especially since I've been more health conscious..and reading what Dr. D says about alcohol..

Hi, Thank you for the lovely welcome to the forum.
Is there a specific article by dr. d on alcohol, or is it from the books where he says it is an avoid?
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, November 27, 2008, 9:44pm; Reply: 85
get the GTD book.....
http://www.4yourtype.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ED010
Posted by: mikeo, Friday, November 28, 2008, 12:14am; Reply: 86
when the US army killed Buffalo in the 1000's so that the Indians would starve...this put them down the ill road
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Friday, November 28, 2008, 2:48pm; Reply: 87
Quoted from greenman
Is there a specific article by dr. d on alcohol, or is it from the books where he says it is an avoid?

Welcome, Greenman!

Dr. D. discusses alcohol in many places, here are just a few for you in which he discusses Type O's and alcohol and non-secretors and alcohol (not that you know your secretor status yet, but it is interesting and sheds light on the different compliance rating for Type O secretors and Type O non-secretors when it comes to red wine):

"Perhaps what is most interesting about being a non-secretor, is that apparently the gene is cross-linked to otherwise unrelated genes, such as the yet undiscovered gene for alcoholism. We know this because in two very large, well done studies, there is a distinct link between non-secretors and family histories of alcoholism. What makes the association even more bizarre is that non-secretors have also been shown to be the subset of people who get the cardiovascular benefits of wine consumption!"

Source:  http://www.dadamo.com/B2blogs/blogs/index.php?blog=27&s=alcohol%20type%20o&paged=6

"VALUE CHANGE:
Beer was listed as NEUTRAL for type O in Eat Right For Your Type. Subsequent studies showed that the food is best avoided by type O individuals."

Source:  http://74.125.47.132/custom?q=cache:NIz0Yb6rTvEJ:www.dadamo.com/typebase4/depictor5.pl%3F470+alcohol+type+o&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

Liquor, distilled:  "AVOID: Contains component which can modify known disease susceptibility."

Source:  http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/depictor5.pl?231

"Red wine:  TYPE O:  

Secretor:
NEUTRAL

Non Secretor:
BENEFICIAL"

Source:  http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/depictor5.pl?454

My own note on red wine:  While it is paradoxically beneficial for us O non-secretors (by "us", I mean me, as you don't know your secretor status yet, Greenman), we also have to be very, very careful just to drink it in moderation because, as pointed out in another of the links I put in here for ya above, the non-secretor gene is linked to the gene for alcoholism.  So, moderation is the key!!!  As for Type O secretors (and most people--about 80% to 85% of people--are secretors), red wine is neutral.

White wine:  Type O avoid (for both secretors and non-secretors)

Source:  http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/depictor5.pl?455

Hope this helps!  Basically, red wine is the only alcohol that is okay for Type O's (beneficial for non-secretors, neutral for secretors), and moderation is the key.  Again:  WELCOME!

(hugegrin)
Posted by: 815 (Guest), Friday, November 28, 2008, 3:52pm; Reply: 88
Quoted from greenman

Is there a specific article by dr. d on alcohol, or is it from the books where he says it is an avoid?


Hi Greenman..here's one answer that I found. You can search on Dr. D's website and find answers to many questions.. :)

http://www.dadamo.com/B2blogs/blogs/index.php?blog=27&s=alcohol&sentence=AND&submit=Search
Posted by: greenman, Sunday, November 30, 2008, 11:51am; Reply: 89
Thanks again for your welcome and the articles advice.

I am pretty new to this diet and would only say that I am 50-60% compliant. What I have enjoyed most about it is that by taking certain foods (avoids) from my diet I am feeling more healthy. I have had alot of 'aha' moments with the removal of white potatoe, peanuts and wheat from my diet.

I don't know my secretor status yet but intend to find out as a christmas present to myself.

I suppose I am just looking for the reason as to why alcohol is such a bad avoid.

THANKS FOR ALL OF YOUR HELP. THIS IS AN EXCELLENT COMMUNITY.
Posted by: jayneeo, Monday, December 1, 2008, 1:08am; Reply: 90
Quoted from greenman


I suppose I am just looking for the reason as to why alcohol is such a bad avoid.

.

welllllllll.....it ain't a health food....but I've had the odd martini on occasion and more often, wine...use discretion. ;)

Posted by: Amazone I., Monday, December 1, 2008, 9:55am; Reply: 91
all in their related masses are ok ;)....(smarty)(ok)(whistle)
Posted by: Ribbit, Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 10:02pm; Reply: 92
I think the more often I drink, the better I can handle it and the less it affects me.  If I go a couple of weeks without having a drink, then drink a glass of wine on an empty stomach, it definitely affects me.  I drank a lot of wine (compared to normal for me) over the last week, and by the end of the week I couldn't feel anything at all at the end of a glass and a half.  So maybe the tolerance thing is dose-related and cumulative.
Posted by: Amazone I., Monday, December 8, 2008, 9:35am; Reply: 93
remember that women only can tolerate 1/3 of men's alc. tolerance....(geek)
Print page generated: Wednesday, July 30, 2014, 11:41am