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BTD Forums  /  The GenoType Diet  /  Hazards of frozen fish, etc.
Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Wednesday, February 20, 2008, 6:01am
Since Warriors are limited to mostly fish and beans for their protein, I think it is only fair that we know more about the hazards of eating frozen fish. (BTW, before BTD I would get my butcher to cut all the fat off fresh-cut sirloin steak and have him grind it for me while I watched - talk about fresh hamburger! Every week I watched while he cut beautiful steaks for me too. Needless to say, he doesn't see much of me these days unless it is on the street! He doesn't sell fish.)

I have read tonight what is written about frozen fish, etc., and polyamines in LR4YT. I must say the terms putrescine and cadaverine are enough to turn the stomach of an ox.  :P  But it seems that we have a whole lot more to worry about than the lowly fish. Wow!

No wonder I have become such a believer in ARA6, walnuts, green tea, elderberries, onions and garlic. These things have probably saved my life!!!

I do not have a good source of fresh fish, which I love, so I'm wondering if the risk of too-long dead fish equals the harm of eating frozen fish.

Another thing, are frozen vegetables as bad for us as frozen fish? And then there is canned stuff. Is it the high heat of canning that makes it bad?

Can we just take enough supplements to off-set this stuff??? Canned beans, frozen vegetables and frozen fish.....YIKES!

I hope I don't have nighmares tonight. Are these things eating up my insides already....? How come I'm doing so well...?  Just joking, but I would like to know more about these risks and, of course, there is nothing that I could find worthwhile about it on-line. So would someone please help the Warriors with this conundrum???? And anyone else who eats frozen fish, canned and frozen vegetables. Oh, my, what about canned tuna, salmon, sardines, (that I haven't even had a chance to like yet  :'( ) ------this is blowing my mind!!! HELP!!!!! Some supplements, quick!!!!  (dizzy) (scared) (dead)
Posted by: Lola, Wednesday, February 20, 2008, 7:31am; Reply: 1
I mostly avoid canned beans......I like soaking those the night before and cooking them according to my taste!

canned sardines and salmon as well as tuna, I do eat, but in olive oil, only, with only salt.

fish and meats, I always buy fresh, except Alaskan salmon steaks, which come frozen, and do not worry myself sick over it.

I eat a lot of veggies and that hopefully compensates for all what I cannot get the way it is stipulated.
Posted by: Brighid45, Wednesday, February 20, 2008, 11:36am; Reply: 2
Dr. D has said that if the diet becomes a straitjacket, that defeats the purpose. I believe this applies generally to eating frozen or canned foods. If you don't have a good source of fresh fish or certain vegetables, then use the sources you have.

For example, I'm not able to afford fresh wild salmon. It is prohibitively expensive in our area and almost impossible to find. Ditto fresh wild-caught tuna. So I use canned salmon and tuna, mostly in recipes where the fish is made into a cold salad or a fish cake that's just heated through (since the fish is cooked during the canning process). To offset using canned fish, I serve it with fresh vegetables or a fresh salad with plenty of bennies.

I believe if you're doing your best to be compliant and are following portion and frequency allowances for your type, then your body will be able to handle the polyamines pretty well.
Posted by: TJ, Wednesday, February 20, 2008, 11:46am; Reply: 3
Quoted from Brighid45
For example, I'm not able to afford fresh wild salmon. It is prohibitively expensive in our area and almost impossible to find. Ditto fresh wild-caught tuna.


Pretty much any fresh fish is prohibitively expensive on my current budget.  Frozen fish is a boon to me!  I'm not terribly concerned about the "hazards" of freezing my food.  I'm eating so much healthier now than before BTD, and that is what is important.  If I WASN'T able to use frozen food, I wouldn't get nearly enough vegetables, unless I ate canned veggies, which I do but I try to use frozen instead of canned.  If I buy fresh, I prepare all of it for cooking and freeze whatever I don't cook then, so it isn't wasted.
Posted by: 2478 (Guest), Wednesday, February 20, 2008, 12:33pm; Reply: 4
Quoted from 2330
Another thing, are frozen vegetables as bad for us as frozen fish? And then there is canned stuff. Is it the high heat of canning that makes it bad?


I have read that eating frozen veggies are sometimes healthier than fresh ones, because frozen veggies are picked at the optimum time of ripeness, and quickly flash frozen, locking all the vitamins and nutrients inside.  Fresh veggies are sometimes trucked (or flown) many miles and then sit on the shelves for awhile.  I still try to eat more fresh than frozen because they taste better, but I think frozen veggies are great because they don't go bad, you can keep them for a long time and they are so easy to prepare on those nights when you just don't feel like cooking.

As for frozen fish, my advice would be to get it at the health food store if you can afford it. Less chances of toxins and chemicals.
Posted by: proto, Wednesday, February 20, 2008, 12:44pm; Reply: 5
I think it also says in the book that veggies that have lots of chlorophyll ie are dark green resist the shock that is involved in industrial freezing or canning process.
Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Wednesday, February 20, 2008, 3:22pm; Reply: 6
Quoted from Brighid45
Dr. D has said that if the diet becomes a straitjacket, that defeats the purpose.


If I could buy fresh meat, which you other types can anytime anywhere, I would probably be able to take a laid back attitude about this problem, but that isn't the case.

Anyone who has read the chapter on Polyamine, etc., would realize that this is not an easily ignored problem. If it is not as serious as it is portrayed in the book, then why would it be there in the first place?

I do have or have had some of the problems listed for the A-types plus several of the problems listed for other types that can be caused by an overload of polyamines and indols. One of them being high cholesterol. (You may remember from my post how careful I have been through the years NOT to eat animal fats or an overload of butter or eggs, either. Not only that, we grew nearly all the vegetables we ate. In fact, I was throwing out vegetables back then that are offered routinely in grocery stores today.) We didn't put junk on the table by any stretch of the imagination for ourselves or our children. However, if I had known about the BTD or GTD back then, I would be a lot healthier today, no doubt!

It is ironic, but having hypoglycemic attacks (a sympton of toxicity) were "cured" by more protein from meat!!! In the short term it did help but I wonder if it only brought on more attacks in the future.

I do not consider trying to eat a healthy diet a "straightjacket." There were other questions in my post, one being the possibility of using supplements to offset a toxic level of polyamine, etc. Dr. D. has mentioned the type-specific probiotics that he has developed so maybe that is the answer. I have taken probiotics for decades but maybe I am a poster "child" in support of using type-specific probiotics. But is this enough to offset consuming canned and frozen foods? I don't know, and I suppose from reading other's posts about this, no one else does either.

My mother was 'way ahead of her time when it came to nutrition. In discussing her attitude about food, my older sister declared "coddling the food" as the secret to her grand success as a cook. And coddle it she did - from the ground up!
Posted by: Lloyd, Wednesday, February 20, 2008, 4:24pm; Reply: 7
You have to make do best with what is available and what you can afford. That's all you can do. Use at least the minimum amount of fish suggested. Don't forget the cherry juice!
Posted by: Brighid45, Wednesday, February 20, 2008, 7:49pm; Reply: 8
Drive55, that's my attitude as well--we eat a lot of frozen and canned fish because that's what my budget can afford on a weekly basis. It's better than not eating fish at all! Every once in a while I get to go to the Fulton Fish Market in Manhattan and usually come home loaded with all kinds of goodies, but those trips are very few and far in between. So frozen or canned is what I eat, and it's all done me a world of good. :)

Spring, I wasn't saying that trying to eat a healthy diet is putting yourself in a straitjacket. Eating healthy is why we're all here :) But you can only do what you can do regarding availability of fresh versus frozen or canned foods. If polyamines are giving you a lot of trouble, then going to supplements, as you indicated, is a good strategy. I believe Live Right has some ideas about how to lessen or stop polyamine damage for all types. You might also check the Encyclopedia for a polyamine protocol (I don't have my copy with me here at the compy or I'd look for you).
Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Wednesday, February 20, 2008, 8:10pm; Reply: 9
Quoted from Lloyd
You have to make do best with what is available and what you can afford. That's all you can do. Use at least the minimum amount of fish suggested. Don't forget the cherry juice!


The book says 3-4 times weekly and you say eat "at least" the minimum. Cherry juice is a black dot for me, Lloyd. Are you trying to hijack my diet?!!!  ??)  :-/   There ARE other things that a person can do - I just need some direction. I want to know if probiotics will work for this problem on the GTD. Or if there is something else that we need besides that or in addition to it. What are the best options on the WARRIOR diet? Dr. D. warns about eating frozen fish - there must be a pretty good reason for it. Is it worse for us to eat it or worse to just do without fish altogether if we can't get it fresh? About the juice - it seems pretty "tortured"  and "dying" to me unless you drink it straight from the juicer. What a mess.
Posted by: focused, Wednesday, February 20, 2008, 9:16pm; Reply: 10
Quoted from 2330


The book says 3-4 times weekly and you say eat "at least" the minimum. Cherry juice is a black dot for me, Lloyd. Are you trying to hijack my diet?!!!  ??)  :-/   There ARE other things that a person can do - I just need some direction. I want to know if probiotics will work for this problem on the GTD. Or if there is something else that we need besides that or in addition to it. What are the best options on the WARRIOR diet? Dr. D. warns about eating frozen fish - there must be a pretty good reason for it. Is it worse for us to eat it or worse to just do without fish altogether if we can't get it fresh? About the juice - it seems pretty "tortured"  and "dying" to me unless you drink it straight from the juicer. What a mess.


If that is the case (only eat fresh fish), many of us could not be on this diet. Ideally, fresh is possibly better but would the advantages of eating fresh outweigh the advantages of eating none at all? I don't think that is the case.
Posted by: Lola, Wednesday, February 20, 2008, 9:44pm; Reply: 11
It is typically only frozen flesh that is
higher in polyamines, since fruits
don't have that much protein to 'shock'

As you are aware there are many ways to
counteract the effect of polyamines
in the body.

walnuts and pineapple come to mind as well as those cherries Lloyd mentioned, and more....
Posted by: Chloe, Wednesday, February 20, 2008, 9:51pm; Reply: 12
Quoted from Lola
It is typically only frozen flesh that is
higher in polyamines, since fruits
don't have that much protein to 'shock'

As you are aware there are many ways to
counteract the effect of polyamines
in the body.

walnuts and pineapple come to mind as well as those cherries Lloyd mentioned, and more....


I think pineapple and cherries are black dot foods for Warriors for the next 3-6 months.
Would bromelain be effective to counteract polyamines?

Posted by: Lloyd, Thursday, February 21, 2008, 1:02am; Reply: 13
Quoted from 2330


Cherry juice is a black dot for me, Lloyd. Are you trying to hijack my diet?!!!  ??)  :-/  


Sorry, didn't check the food lists.

Look, the point is that doing the best you can is still a whole lot better than whatever you did before you started a D'Adamo diet plan. Do what you can now and work to improve on it when you can. Lola mentioned some other possibilites. Green tea is also useful in reducing polyamines, as are prunes and plums.
Posted by: yvonneb, Thursday, February 21, 2008, 2:18am; Reply: 14
Quoted from Lloyd

Green tea is also useful in reducing polyamines, as are prunes and plums.


And Turmeric/ Curcuma.

Also, I read somewhere that flash freezing causes a lot of the polyamines, whereas if you freeze the fish yourself it is much slower and somehow the polyamines are less.
That way you can bulk buy (or even order) fish and freeze yourself. At least it would be worth the journey as well, if you have to go further afield to get what you want.

I am going by memory here and it's too late for me now to go look for the book- it's 2 am and I really should be in bed : )
Maybe you guys can google for more info on this and just make sure I remembered right, before you buy the double chest freezer : )



Posted by: 12 (Guest), Thursday, February 21, 2008, 3:13am; Reply: 15
Berberine inhibits bacterial decarboxylase, the enzyme that converts amino acids into polyamines...
Posted by: jayneeo, Thursday, February 21, 2008, 3:35am; Reply: 16
Ah, thank you , Dr. Colicci! I take a lot of turmeric....which has  berberine in it. Good to know.
Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Thursday, February 21, 2008, 3:44am; Reply: 17
Quoted from yvonneb


And Turmeric/ Curcuma.

Also, I read somewhere that flash freezing causes a lot of the polyamines, whereas if you freeze the fish yourself it is much slower and somehow the polyamines are less.
That way you can bulk buy (or even order) fish and freeze yourself. At least it would be worth the journey as well, if you have to go further afield to get what you want.

I am going by memory here and it's too late for me now to go look for the book- it's 2 am and I really should be in bed : )
Maybe you guys can google for more info on this and just make sure I remembered right, before you buy the double chest freezer : )


I already have a new, large, upright, frostless freezer ready for whatever I can manage to get that is fit to eat according to Dr. D.'s thinking.  I do hope regular freeziing of fish is all right because if it isn't, ALL meats would be at risk it would seem to me. Fish is already pretty tricky because of having to buy the type that comes from so far away

When people start using words like putrescine and cadaverine, and they are warning people about the hazards of an over supply of this stuff being in your stomachs, they should expect a reaction of some kind! Have people become so jaded that nothing fazes them anymore?  I think you can say that I am most certainly not in that number.

I have had entirely too many problems with my stomach and the pain that goes with it to be fooling around with something that may make my problems worse down the road. That is my concern. I have spent many years trying to do the right things so my stomach wouldn't hurt all the time. I have gotten so close with this diet, but now I am afraid to eat fish because I can't get it fresh and canned seems to be a problem too. I can understand that people who do not have problems with their stomachs already could enjoy fish and probably gain a lot of good from it.

I have been using all the remedies that I have mentioned on this thread - the problem has been, as it would seem easy to guess, that I STILL had problems. These things have helped a lot, no doubt about that.  
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, February 21, 2008, 4:22am; Reply: 18
polyphenols can mitigate the effects of polyamines, I believe....
would Berberine be considered a polyphenol, Dr C?
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, February 21, 2008, 4:29am; Reply: 19
Spring, why not take your individuality a step further and have your whole serotyping panel done?

I can tell you one thing, once I had mine done, so much came into place!! it was a real ahhhhhhhhh moment in my life!!
I know it might just be irrelevant now that you are following the GTD, but still, the more you know about your physiology, the better!!
at least it is important to me, and I do not have the issues you seem to have, and I believe your health is top priority to you.
Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Thursday, February 21, 2008, 5:20am; Reply: 20
Lola, I may do that later after I get some of this critical stuff out of the way. I already have the secretor test kit here. But I must have some foods that I feel comfortable eating every day or a supplement that can blast to kingdom come any polyamines hanging around that I don't need!

I just read a little about Goldenseal and there is more than $50,000,000 (Yes, that is million!) worth of this stuff sold in the US every year mainly because of the Berberine in it. I bought some turmeric six years or so ago for another reason but never took much of it because it was a neutral for A-Types. This Berberine sounds like a magic bullet for many different things and may even rival Elderberry in my stash!! I'm feeling better already! (smile)

Yes, my health has some priority, all right. It has to have.  However, once I do all I can do to get help and start seeing a few results, I don't agonize over it. I am willing to give things time to do their thing. I am wondering now if the cod I ate a couple of weeks ago that threw me for a loop for days on end may have been caused by the polyamines in it. Of course, I ate canned beans at the same time which Mrs. T. thought was the problem - eating two different proteins together - and that might have been part of the problem. But, no doubt, I got a super whammy of polyamines from both these foods. (In fact, the old cod didn't taste very good anyway. Yuck! I usually like cod but not that time!) I finally drank enough green tea to get rid of the pain. No doubt the cod was REAL, REAL dead!  :o
Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Thursday, February 21, 2008, 5:33am; Reply: 21
Quoted from 12
Berberine inhibits bacterial decarboxylase, the enzyme that converts amino acids into polyamines...


Thanks, very, very much, Dr. C. for helping us out. Now, to the market I go! Both of them! No wonder I have lived in fear of having another hypoglycemic attack, and I felt such a horrible, insatiable need for amino acids!! I was trying to lower my intake of chicken but seemingly could not - this was before GTD. The more I ate the worse I felt but didn't realize it was the chicken so I just ate more. I'm so glad that cycle is over.....(smile)
Posted by: proto, Thursday, February 21, 2008, 8:00am; Reply: 22
Quoted from jayneeo
I take a lot of turmeric....which has  berberine in it.
What kind of turmeric is that? Some formulations blend turmeric and goldenseal or whatever to control candida so those probably have berberine.

Posted by: ruthie, Thursday, February 21, 2008, 1:11pm; Reply: 23
Here is another fishy story...
I have been purchasing canned and frozen salmon from my local grocery store.  They must have agreed with me cause i've seen no ill effects.
However about 2 or 3 months ago the freezer section of fish was empty.  So  I called the manager over to ask why...
He said they quit stocking salmon because it was imported from China...China What!
Alaska is one of our states, so why import from China?
This is just plain crazy.
namaste
ruthie
Posted by: Brighid45, Thursday, February 21, 2008, 1:38pm; Reply: 24
Slight thread hijack:
Most corporations buy from places like China because it's cheaper--period. Alaskan salmon is more expensive because the cannery workers are paid more; there are also Department of Agriculture and OSHA rules about sanitary procedure and worker safety that have to be obeyed at least minimally, which drives the cost of production up as well. China doesn't have those rules and regs to contend with and they pay their workers substantially less . . . and so their fish is cheaper.

/hijack :)
Posted by: 1323 (Guest), Thursday, February 21, 2008, 1:49pm; Reply: 25
Some vegies in my area I cannot obtain organically.  So I have to eat them in the  non-organic form.  I do the best I can.. but for instance..

Rhutabagas, Turnips, Sweet Pototaes - I cannot get those organically.  I'm praying since they are root vegies, I'll be ok.  Anybody?

And talk about high prices!  I have been paying $2.99 for a small bunch of organic swiss chard in these winter months!  And you know how that cooks down to nothing!  

BUT bananas I won't pay the organic price for.  I read one should wash the skin of the banana (organic or non); because of tranferring bateria, etc. to your hands and then when you peel the banana and eat it, you get it on the banana!  

As far as fish, I'm lucky to live in  WA on the Sound.  Wild Salmon and other fish is all over.  Still not cheap, but if one shops around, you can find it.  We got a great buy at Safeway one day.  BUT if you go to Whole Foods here in WA they still jack the price!  
Posted by: TJ, Thursday, February 21, 2008, 2:56pm; Reply: 26
I am also interested to know if flash freezing is more harmful to meat/fish than regular freezing I do in my own freezer.

Quoted from 2330
putrescine and cadaverine
(drool) yummy

Quoted from 2330
Have people become so jaded that nothing fazes them anymore?  I think you can say that I am most certainly not in that number.


Hmmm, maybe Spring is a HSP too, as well as a nonnie!

Quoted from Brighid45
China doesn't have those rules and regs to contend with and they pay their workers substantially less . . . and so their fish is cheaper.

/hijack :)


I'm all for free trade, but as gross as some of OUR food processing is, if theirs is even worse... :o (hand) (dead)
Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Thursday, February 21, 2008, 3:47pm; Reply: 27
I noticed on the bag after I ate the cod that made me sick that it was a Product of China. They've done a pretty good job of wiping out a good number of our pets - are they going to do the same to some of us? I certainly don't mind paying more for something that is actually fit for human consumption.

The organics in produce departments at the local groceries here leave a lot to be desired. I'm sure this stuff was fine when it came out of the ground or off the vine, but at least half of it is usually ready to throw out by the time I see it. The problem, of course, is there aren't enough people buying it. The distributors send 'way too much and the grocery winds up taking the loss. And we lose too. I asked one produce guy at a large grocery why they didn't carry kale anymore. He said they had to buy such a large amount most of it would spoil before it was sold. One thing for sure, there is plenty of stupidity - a major overgrowth! In their greed, the suppliers think they can force the grocery to do what they want, but they are chopping off their own noses in the process. There had never been a shortage of decent kale before when the groceries could order what they knew from past experience would sell in good time.
Posted by: Mrs T O+, Thursday, February 21, 2008, 6:34pm; Reply: 28
Yeah, I have had some cod that tasted bad & it was from China. So, if you find fish at only $3-4/#, check the label!!
It might have been raised in contaminated waters by an enemy!!
Posted by: Chloe, Thursday, February 21, 2008, 7:26pm; Reply: 29
Trader Joe's in our area has issued a statement that for the time being they are no longer carrying any products from China in their store because of huge customer outcry.

It's one thing to read labels on packages, but when you buy something like fish and it's not
showing country of origin, you might want to rethink your purchase. I now feel safer shopping
in Trader Joe's.

As for eating fish in a restaurant, it's anyones guess.

BUT..

Wendy's had an advertisement on TV yesterday that showed a fish sandwich which was cod.
They explained where the cod came from which made it sound safe.  Still, what did they do to
the fish?  They fried it and put it on a white bread bun.

I order my fish from Vital Choices.  I feel it's safe.  http://www.vitalchoice.com


Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Thursday, February 21, 2008, 9:16pm; Reply: 30
Quoted from Chloe
Trader Joe's in our area has issued a statement that for the time being they are no longer carrying any products from China in their store because of huge customer outcry.

It's one thing to read labels on packages, but when you buy something like fish and it's not
showing country of origin, you might want to rethink your purchase. I now feel safer shopping
in Trader Joe's.

As for eating fish in a restaurant, it's anyones guess.

BUT..

Wendy's had an advertisement on TV yesterday that showed a fish sandwich which was cod.
They explained where the cod came from which made it sound safe.  Still, what did they do to
the fish?  They fried it and put it on a white bread bun.

I order my fish from Vital Choices.  I feel it's safe.  http://www.vitalchoice.com




I think someone would have to be really laid back about what they put in their mouths if they considered this sandwich from Windy's anything close to nutritional! We were in a rush last night and Windy's was handy so I decided to try this sandwich. I only ate the fillet - no tartar sauce, no bun. My stomach was highly insulted, to say the least. The grease and breading made up more than half of the fillet. I'm pretty sure I would have been better off eating their grilled chicken!  :-/ I had to eat again when I got home.
Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Thursday, February 21, 2008, 9:46pm; Reply: 31
Quoted from Chloe
I order my fish from Vital Choices.  I feel it's safe.  http://www.vitalchoice.com


Cloe, I was just looking at their site. Which are your favorites? I like the idea of having some of these pouches on hand. Have you tried them? I have used other brands, but I really like the looks of this site. It is so neat to have a pouch in your purse to take into a nice, but questionable restaurant. I order a salad or other veggies and put the salmon on top. Really takes the worry out of going to a place you aren't familiar with. Or even to a pot luck or a friend's house or visiting relatives.......(smile)
Posted by: Chloe, Thursday, February 21, 2008, 10:42pm; Reply: 32
Quoted from 2330


Cloe, I was just looking at their site. Which are your favorites? I like the idea of having some of these pouches on hand. Have you tried them? I have used other brands, but I really like the looks of this site. It is so neat to have a pouch in your purse to take into a nice, but questionable restaurant. I order a salad or other veggies and put the salmon on top. Really takes the worry out of going to a place you aren't familiar with. Or even to a pot luck or a friend's house or visiting relatives.......(smile)


I use their individual canned salmon because the cans have pop top lids which is why I never
bought salmon in pouches.  I buy my dog the dried salmon dog treats and she loves them.
I would love to try the halibut and tuna at some point.  I take their fish oil and give it to my
husband and dog as well.

Posted by: Melissa_J, Thursday, February 21, 2008, 11:16pm; Reply: 33
I can't worry about frozen fish where I live either, unless I want fish that isn't fresh, or smells too fishy, frozen and canned are all there is.  It's the best fish I can get, where I am.

I just keep up the green tea, walnuts, etc. to counteract it (it's not like a lectin that does damage even in small amounts, it can be balanced out from what I understand)

Here most of the unfrozen fish is actually thawed fish, so I buy it frozen and take care of the thawing on my own terms.  
Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Friday, February 22, 2008, 12:19am; Reply: 34
I'm not worrying about it as much, either, since I have learned a whole lot more than I knew a few weeks ago! No more fish from China, for one thing! (Actually, I wouldn't have bought it the first time, but I didn't know we were even importing fish from China, of all places!) Turmeric and\or goldenseal will definitely be handy when I eat frozen fish and canned beans from now on. I WILL be buying more bagged dried beans and lentils. Of course, I will still be using green tea, walnuts, etc., for the polyamine problem and numerous other benefits that they have for us.

Learning is so much fun!!! (smile)
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