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BTD Forums  /  The GenoType Diet  /  Oxalates - Please advise
Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Monday, February 4, 2008, 3:44pm
I posted the following on the Warrior thread, but I would like some information about this issue ASAP. Nearly everything we Warriors are supposed to be eating the most of seems to be loaded with oxalates. Now, I won't be enjoying anything I eat today until I get more information about this. I hope I don't have to wait weeks to finally get an answer---only after someone else keeps bringing it up the way it was with the white beans.

http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=dailytip&dbid=53

Here is another very good source on the same site:    http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=48#answer

I would suggest reading this whole page if you are concerned about oxalates. I think we need some clarification about this concern. I read that list and some days I eat at least two or more servings from every single one of these groups - in fact, they are superfoods for us! No doubt, we are getting a very high quanity of this stuff every day! No doubt about it. Like 750 milligrams per 100 gram serving of spinach - 610 per 100 gram serving of beet greens. I think I'm going to stick with okra and collard greens in the "green" family until we hear more about this. In fact, since I was already eating many of these foods before I started on this diet, it makes me wonder if that is why I have osteopenia anyway. (This problem has NEVER run in my family! None of my grandparents, my parents or siblings ever had a broken bone and neither have I, so far.)  No wonder I have been desperately wanting some type of dairy product that was acceptable. I do hope our moderators will see to it that we get some help with this. I am definitely concerned.

Now, I will go and have a serving of REAL yogurt and take my calcium, magnesium and Vitamin D. ----And we started off being concerned about chocolate?! Wow!
Posted by: Dr. D, Monday, February 4, 2008, 4:05pm; Reply: 1
You can't have a flavone (anti-oxidant) rich food without it almost always being an oxalate rich food as well. While not great in high amounts for people who have kidney stones (and even then just about the only people who do go on to form stones have metabolic syndrome), oxalic acids do possess anticancer effects, increase intracellular energy and lower p-glycoprotein.

http://www.dadamo.com/wordpress/?p=5
Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Monday, February 4, 2008, 6:09pm; Reply: 2
Thanks, so much, Dr. D. Wheeeee, now I can stop worrying. I knew there had to be something completely valid out there. I had rather have osteopenia any day than lose the benefits of foods containing anti-oxidants, etc.. Also, another benefit of your post was the reference to the metabolic syndrone connection to kidney stones. My young daughter-in-law has suffered terribly from kidney stones since she was a teenager. So I will follow up on this for her. She is only 4 feet 10 inches and a Hunter - 'way too much suffering for such a little, young thing. Boy, does she ever have the spunk, though! We love her to death. You can't tell, can you? (smile)
Posted by: Chloe, Monday, February 4, 2008, 10:32pm; Reply: 3
WOW~  How interesting to find out  that people most likely to form kidney stones almost always have metabolic syndrome~  

This is a more in depth article related the original info I shared from Dr. Mercola's site
re: oxalates.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/95208.php
Posted by: Beckyb, Tuesday, February 26, 2008, 10:44pm; Reply: 4
Can anyone suggest a Gatherer low oxalate spinach alternative? Since I've developed a mild case of hyperoxalia  >:(I need to avoid foods with higher ratings of oxalates. I do hate to give up my spinach! >:( I had been eating spinach twice a day, most days. A little too much of a good thing as it turns out. Are there any other leafy greens that definitely fall into the low oxalate range? There seems to be some controversy about turnip greens. ??) I'd appreciate any input on this.

Thanks in advance   :)
Posted by: italybound, Tuesday, February 26, 2008, 10:46pm; Reply: 5
http://www.branwen.com/rowan/oxalate.htm

check out this page..........apply foods for your type.  :)
Posted by: Beckyb, Tuesday, February 26, 2008, 10:52pm; Reply: 6
Thanks for the reply, italybound. I have this info and also a table from the low oxalate cook book. The problem is, I haven't been able to identify any low oxalate leafy greens that can be cooked up like spinach. The closest I can get is romaine lettuce.
Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 12:41am; Reply: 7
Quoted from Beckyb
Can anyone suggest a Gatherer low oxalate spinach alternative? Since I've developed a mild case of hyperoxalia  >:(I need to avoid foods with higher ratings of oxalates. I do hate to give up my spinach! >:( I had been eating spinach twice a day, most days. A little too much of a good thing as it turns out. Are there any other leafy greens that definitely fall into the low oxalate range? There seems to be some controversy about turnip greens. ??) I'd appreciate any input on this.

Thanks in advance   :)


I was just reading what the Mayo Clinic site had to say about hyperoxaluria, (is this the same thing you are talking about?) and they prescribe prescription dose B-6 for this ailment. They say this reduces the amount of oxalate produced by the liver. Interesting, to say the least. Would the high amount of oxalates in the Warrior diet be the reason Dr. D. recommends B-6 for them?? I have been taking extra B-6 for the last thirty years, so I'm 'way ahead of the game on this because I have ALWAYS eaten a lot of the high oxalate foods! (smile)

My daughter-in-law has had a tendency to have kidney stones in the past. I will show her this Mayo article about oxalates. Very interesting indeed. http://www.mayoclinic.org/hyperoxaluria/options.html
Posted by: Schluggell, Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 9:00am; Reply: 8
There is a difference between raw & cooked vegetables in terms of the resultant Oxalate - As it is a byproduct from reacting the Oxalic Acid that is actually present in the veggies....

Also eating foods earlier in the season rather than later in the year -Like Silica tends to develop from late spring onwards..

Because of the above you will find much conflicting food info - and many foods that have not been tested - There is definitely more to the story than simply the oxalate. Metabolic processes & how you prepare the foods will be more important in the end.

http://www.carrotcafe.com/f/oxveggie.html
Posted by: Beckyb, Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 2:13pm; Reply: 9
Spring and Schluggell, thanks for your responses!

I've been supplementing with extra B-6 for some time now in addition to the calcium and potassium citrate and any number of other herbs. Just last night I came across some interesting information on a couple of ayurvedic formulas that seem to hold promise. Himalaya has something called "Cystone" also known as "Uricare" that is comprised of several ayurvedic components. I also understand that adding "tribulus terrestris" may be helpful. It can't hurt to try these so I'm going to give it a whirl.

Shcluggell, you are so right about the conflicting food info. - This is what makes it so exasperating for me to make determinations about what I can eat at the moment, given my current circumstance. In any case the link you provided looks helpful and I appreciate it very much!  :)

Posted by: Beckyb, Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 2:17pm; Reply: 10
PS. Yes Spring, I meant to initially say that I've developed hyperoxaluria, not hyperoxalia.
Posted by: Carol the Dabbler, Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 3:45pm; Reply: 11

My impression is that, in general, anything from the cabbage family (which includes turnip greens) is lower in oxylates than anything from the spinach family.

That's not scientific, just my vague recollection from bits & pieces that I've read over the years, plus the fact that cabbage-family greens have a different mouthfeel than spinach-family greens.  The latter tend to make my teeth feel temporarily roughened (or maybe they just make my tongue more sensitive?) -- though the worst offender in that regard is rhubarb, which is also high in oxalic acid, but is in the buckwheat family.
Posted by: Carol the Dabbler, Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 4:08pm; Reply: 12

Here's a link to a table on the USDA web site: http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=9444.  It looks to be the same chart that the Carrot Cafe data came from, but lists about twice as many items.
Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 4:08pm; Reply: 13
Quoted from Beckyb
PS. Yes Spring, I meant to initially say that I've developed hyoperoxaluria, not hyperoxalia.


Becky, have you had any problems before this diagnosis? I would guess there must have been something or they wouldn't have done the test. There does seem to be an awful lot they don't know about this problem. Did you read the post where Dr. D. addressed oxalates?

Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 4:36pm; Reply: 14
After reading Becky's post about spinach, I've done some more reading about oxalates. It seems that calcium and magnesium is a great help with keeping the level of this stuff down because of binding with it in the stomach. Which seems to mean that this is a good thing instead of something bad. We just need to make sure we get plenty of calcium. Right? Of course, everything we learn supports the absolute necessity of eating a balanced diet anyway.
Posted by: Mrs T O+, Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 4:48pm; Reply: 15
We are starting to eat cooked escarole & endive. I think they are delicious & mild tasting. Most of you eat them raw. I guess I'm weird as I don't like them raw, but enjoy them cooked. The cook quickly & I like them with olive oil. Others who eat lemon with greens may do that also.
Mrs "T"    O+
Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 5:08pm; Reply: 16
Quoted from Carol the Dabbler

Here's a link to a table on the USDA web site: http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=9444.  It looks to be the same chart that the Carrot Cafe data came from, but lists about twice as many items.


Thanks for posting this, Carol. This is the best list I've seen. One list I saw didn't even mention spinach!! Kale and turnip greens seem to be good alternatives. I've eaten a lot of kale lately.
Posted by: Carol the Dabbler, Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 6:17pm; Reply: 17

Quoted from 2330
Thanks for posting this, Carol. This is the best list I've seen.




You're welcome!

I'm amazed to see how many of the Teacher Toxins have high oxalic-acid levels.  Maybe that was one of Dr. D's criteria.

Posted by: Beckyb, Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 8:04pm; Reply: 18
Carol, thanks so much for posting that more complete table. I'll try the turnip greens with caution and see how I fare.

Spring, yes, I did read Dr. D's post on oxalates.

And, no, I've not had any problems along this line before now that I know of. To be honest, I've not been to an MD with this. Haven't found one I trust.
This web site has been very useful, though:
http://lowoxalate.info/index.html
My symptoms are well described here.
Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 8:36pm; Reply: 19
Becky, I was having some of these same symptoms described on this page when I was howling about those BEANS! I determined that I was going to eat diamonds come what may (I think several others were doing this also) and see if the combination of these powerful foods would straighten out my stomach. My stomach had hurt since I was a child but I didn't realize that until I finally, finally got some relief on the Warrior diet. After that first day of no pain, which was several days after starting, there was no turning back for me. I WAS HOOKED! (smile) I had some ups and downs with detox after that but it didn't matter, I kept right on going! I feel great - so many, many positives.

This is just a thought, but maybe when we've had times when we feel like we need something and can't figure out what, it might be a good idea to think about what we've had the last several hours before that. Maybe if we've had spinach, we need some calcium, etc.

I think if your stomach feels happy after you eat you're doing something right! I am a GREAT believer in probiotics and have been for over 20 years. They don't solve everything but they are definitely a big part of the picture. Eating a little ghee every day has done wonders for my stomach too. Leaving off corn is a MAJOR improvement. Simply eating blackberries, grapes or peaches instead of the super duper blueberry has made a huge difference.

Another surprise for me is how much better I am assimilating my supplements. I don't need nearly as much as I did before to feel really great.

Have you considered trying the Geno diet? Maybe you've mentioned this and are already on it but I missed it.
Posted by: Beckyb, Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 10:20pm; Reply: 20
Yep. I'm following the Geno Type diet and it's great. I do faithfully take the Polyflora O and am usually very disciplined about eating the superfoods. A little too much so in the case of spinach the past three years, though.

Thanks for the encouragement  :)
Posted by: Carol the Dabbler, Thursday, February 28, 2008, 12:31am; Reply: 21

In addition to eating a balanced diet (in the sense of eating appropriate amounts from all the food groups), it's also important to eat a variety of foods within each group.  And it's even better if the variety comes from different botanical families.

Beckyb mentioned on the other oxylate thread that she had been eating spinach twice a day, every day.  As she now realizes, she would have been better off eating spinach (from the spinach family) some of the time, kale (from the cabbage family) some of the time, and so on.  This will automatically normalize not only one's oxylate intake, but most other nutrients as well.

For those who would like some idea of how much oxalic acid they're eating, here's a link that I posted on that other thread: http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=9444

Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Thursday, February 28, 2008, 12:34am; Reply: 22
Quoted from Beckyb
Yep. I'm following the Geno Type diet and it's great. I do faithfully take the Polyflora O and am usually very disciplined about eating the superfoods. A little too much so in the case of spinach the past three years, though.

Thanks for the encouragement  :)


Yes, I was eating 'way too many blueberries (not the best fruit for me) with cereal that had a little corn in it and blaming all my symptoms on soy milk! I thought my digestion had gone haywire because I was having trouble with chicken. I was eating a LOT of it. It is a no-no for me now so I don't have to worry about solving that problem! It really is nice when some things just take care of themselves! (smile)
Posted by: Schluggell, Thursday, February 28, 2008, 1:56pm; Reply: 23
Quoted from Carol the Dabbler
..That's not scientific, just my vague recollection from bits & pieces that I've read over the years, plus the fact that cabbage-family greens have a different mouthfeel than spinach-family greens...though the worst offender in that regard is rhubarb, which is also high in oxalic acid, but is in the buckwheat family.


In the end we have to rely on our own instincts, regardless of the establishment...Well said really.

15+ years ago I was curious about the Rhubarb thing myself...actually spent time wading thru the medical literature.
At that time the only cases I found of Oxalate poisoning due to Rhubarb was because of the cooked Rhubarb {not the leaves}, in fact no cases of any issue due to eating the raw leaves either. That does not mean I would wholeheartedly recommend this, but it is interesting to note.

One day the establishment will put more weight to seasonal changes of our foods, until then....

Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Thursday, February 28, 2008, 2:53pm; Reply: 24
Here is a link to an interesting study on cooking taro using milk:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6R-4K2SKF7-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=feedae82b03ad4d75e9a5324fbd95263
Posted by: Jane, Thursday, February 28, 2008, 3:17pm; Reply: 25
Interesting.  I eat a lot of raw baby spinach.  Just bought some beet greens for the first time but haven't tried them yet.
I am fanatical about taking my CAL-MAG-ZINC every night because of a former parathyroid tumor.  I'll have to take some time to do more research.
Right now I'm off to have an MRI on my knee which I screwed up last weekend skiing..but that's for another thread later.
Jane
Posted by: Carol the Dabbler, Thursday, February 28, 2008, 8:28pm; Reply: 26

The conclusion of the study Spring mentions is,

Quoted Text
...baked taro leaves should be regarded as a high oxalate food but baking with milk significantly reduces the amount of soluble oxalate that could be absorbed from the cooked leaves.



If oxylates serve some valuable dietary functions, and so do calcium and other minerals, and if combining them makes both of them unavailable for nutritional purposes (which I assume is the implication), then I am left wondering -- based on what Dr. D posted in #1, above -- whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.  Or maybe just a thing.

Posted by: Carol the Dabbler, Thursday, February 28, 2008, 8:36pm; Reply: 27

Quoted from Schluggell
... the only cases I found of Oxalate poisoning due to Rhubarb was because of the cooked Rhubarb {not the leaves}, in fact no cases of any issue due to eating the raw leaves either.


I would guess that this is mostly because people don't generally eat the leaves themselves, just the petioles (leaf stalks).  So the question of whether eating the leaves would be harmful (as is generally thought) is left open.

I do suspect, however, that the leaves, like the stalks, would be pretty much a Universal Avoid.

Posted by: 2330 (Guest), Thursday, February 28, 2008, 11:06pm; Reply: 28
Carol, your feeling about this is certainly demonstrative of this whole oxalate quandary to me. Is it a problem or isn't it  ??) There is no sense to be had in any of the mess on the Web about it. Some lists say one thing, some say another. Some don't say a word about fruits, legumes and such, others have them high on the list. Some say foods are high, some say low!

There are not a few older people who have major concerns about kidney stones, etc.,--- or about just plain out feeling bad for one reason or another. I think everything I ate today has been blacklisted by one "expert" (or "exspurt")  or another except the fish and yogurt I had. If these folks are going to present data as "fact," they ought to get their act together and post what they DON'T know about this along with what they either suspect or "sort of" know. At this point, I'm thinking that we can do just about as good of a job at guessing as they can!  ::)

Not a single person in my entire family has ever even thought about passing a kidney stone, and they ate highly oxalated foods by the ton their entire lives. Even the two with metabolic problems. Are these people LOOKING for a problem, or what? It certainly beats me.
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