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BTD Forums  /  The GenoType Diet  /  Gatherer vegetable situation: dire, or not so bad?
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Monday, January 21, 2008, 2:34pm
There is only one aspect of the Gatherer diet that I, a long time BTDer, am not making the transition to with the ease of Ekaterina Gordeeva gliding across the ice.  That would be the veggie situation.  What up wit' it?  My veggie staples used to be, well, that would be staple, singular:  broccoli.  But now broccoli is a black-dot avoid.  Okay, my other staples were sweet potatoes and kale, which also are black dotters.  What is with these black dots?  I assume broccoli is a black dotter due to being a goitrogen, and sweet potatoes are there due to being a tad starchy and we need to be ever so low on the GI (although I think that is pushing it, as root veggies tend to keep me, for one, out of the CHIPS, but anyway...), but I don't know why kale is in there!  Kale should be a diamond superfood, I mean spinach is, why not kale?  No justice, no peace!

ANYWAY, I digress:  my point is, all my bestest buds are out.  So I'm now laden with bags of frozen asparagus and a bag of onions.  But how can I live without my broccoli?  It substituted nicely for refined carbs such as pasta or rice in so many situations as a side dish.  It had some substance to it, unlike spinach or turnip greens.

I'm going to have a LOT of asparagus, bamboo shoots (if I can find some good ones around here), onion and turnip greens, but what about LETTUCES?  I mean, my beloved iceberg (the Rodney Dangerfield of lettuces, yet so good and hydrating) is neutral, thank goodness, but so is romaine?  WEIRD.  So basically all your salad lettuces are merely neutral...unless one wants a big bowl of raw spinach salad, which does NOT do it for me.

I don't know...I find I'm not eating as many veggies as I was on the O non diet, between the fact that we are suddenly allowed more grains and suddenly my previously favored veggies are all black dots or neutrals.  Can't understand why romaine and iceberg aren't superfoods...at least romaine.  I mean, us Gatherers need the lovely soluable fiber, phytonutrients, intracellular hydration, etc.  What happened?  Where'd the salad veggies go?  You expect me to eat a spinach, egg and tomato salad?  Okay, fine, but leave out the spinach!

What say you all to this?  I'm having a bit of a veggie crisis.
Posted by: Mrs T O+, Monday, January 21, 2008, 3:35pm; Reply: 1
How about getting a blender(or Vitamix), blending them & getting them down before you taste very much!
Maybe you can blend certain veggies & make soup.
What a bummer! I hope some of the other good things about it make it better!!
Cheers,
Mrs "T"    O+
Posted by: Jane, Monday, January 21, 2008, 3:46pm; Reply: 2
PT,
How are you doing?
Try the baby spinach for salads.  It's not as bitter and I like it even more than romaine for salads.!
Jane
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Monday, January 21, 2008, 3:52pm; Reply: 3
Quoted from Jane
PT,
How are you doing?
Try the baby spinach for salads.  It's not as bitter and I like it even more than romaine for salads.!
Jane

I don't know, girl, I'm just not a raw spinach person.  You would think I would be, for all my bravado about loving somewhat bitter flavors and dark green veggies, etc., but raw spinach is a little hard core, even for me.  And what about the oxalic acid issue?  I dunno.  Cooked spinach, yes, especially in our family's fave "spinach artichoke and cheese" casserole (calm down all you compliance sticklers out there, we only have this once or, at most twice, per year, on Thanksgiving and/or Christmas).  But raw spinach?  I'm not feeling it.  I'd sooner do Mrs. T.'s sugg and blend up a soup, or have my HFS juice me a "green" blend, as they will juice spinach and carrot, for example, which would be LOVELY.  ...Aaaand, of course, carrot is a black-dot avoid, too!

Dr. D.!  What are you doing to me?  I know, I know, it is all about glycemic load or something...but if I can't have things like sweet potato, broccoli and carrot, you know it is only a matter of time until I head for the CHIPS!

btw, I'm trying to figure out if purple, red, etc. potatoes are now neutral, as the list specifically says "potatoes, white" are toxins to avoid.  The plot thickens!

If I could have a purple potato, maybe I could forge ahead.
Posted by: Olerica, Monday, January 21, 2008, 4:10pm; Reply: 4
I know I'm not a Gatherer, but I do like breakfast smoothies with berries and spinach (now an avoid/toxin for this Teacher) with grapefruit juice.  I don't know your list, but you could try that...

And Jane is right, packaged 'baby spinach' is very mild in flavor!  That with a warm lemon juice 'vinegrette' would be lovely...or pink grapefruit supremes and a 'vinegrette' made with grapefruit juice, olive oil and salt.  Mmmmmm!

Can you have celery?  Celery, tomato and spinach juice is SPECTACULAR.  (Sigh.... I'm a Teacher - all avoids/toxins for me!)
Posted by: jayneeo, Monday, January 21, 2008, 5:59pm; Reply: 5
spinach tomato and celery juice sounds good....
personally, I am happy with the veggies cuz I know I need to get off the goitrogens. I love celery and can just cut up  several stalks and chomp away.
I loooovvve spinach, but ....yes, cooked. lightly. like in eggs for brkfst. (or dinner!!) I just put oil in the pan, drop handful (big) in , stir, when it droops, add eggs (you know, mixed for scramble) and if you can do cheese, throw it in...(ricotta?) (I have not been having good luck with the cheese yet) it makes a lovely dish.
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Monday, January 21, 2008, 6:15pm; Reply: 6
Quoted from Jane
Baby spinach really tastes different - it's not bitter at all.  Try it by mixing it with some romaine (baby romaine is great too!) Jane

I've had the baby spinach.  It isn't bitter, you are correct.  But it still has the oxalic acid issue, yes?

I just don't see what happened to kale.  Could it be a typo?  Oh, the humanity.

But I'm gonna stick to romaine and iceberg for salads, though they will now be neutral, whereas romaine was beneficial before.

I don't know.  The veggie selection is going to take some getting used to for me.  I miss broccoli, mainly, and sweet potatoes.

Thank goodness tomatoes are allowed and a superfood at that.  That helps *lol*.  Seriously, it does, because they are so versatile, great in sauces, soups, salads, sandwiches, etc.  LOVE 'em.


Posted by: Heidi, Monday, January 21, 2008, 6:16pm; Reply: 7
The gatherer veggies would make a fantastic omelette: mushrooms, celery, onion, bell pepper and spinich sauteed in a bit of ghee tucked into fluffy eggs with a little cottage cheese and topped off with diced tomato.  ;D
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Monday, January 21, 2008, 6:20pm; Reply: 8
Quoted from Jane
Olerica,
Great idea to try and make a vinegarette with grapefruit juice!

Yeah, that is a great idea!!!  Also, that tomato, celery and spinach juice does sound lovely.

I made a soda last night out of grapefruit juice and pineapple juice (and seltzer water!).  I wasn't expecting it to be anything to write home about, but omg:  turns out that grapefruit and pineapple together are fantastic!  Who knew?

I am really loving grapefruit juice being a superfood.  I drank it throughout coldzilla and it really helped the detox/healing process, me feels.  I also made a soda that was just grapefruit and seltzer the other day and that was VERY, very, very thirst-quenching.  I think that is one of the most refreshing homemade sodas I've made.

But my fave so far using grapefruit juice is to take elderberry concentrate, grapefruit juice and lemon juice (and seltzer...do I need to state that, even *lol*?).  WOW.  I'll bet if I had thought to add the pineapple to that, it would have been excellent.

I'm glad I had pineapple juice, unopened, left over from my BTD days, as I have done something awful to my left shoulder, so I figured I should drink some for the bromelain.  That led to my discovery of the grapefruit-pineapple soda being such a good marriage.

Love the idea for the grapefruit salad dressing.  Ummmmmmm!

Posted by: Gumby, Monday, January 21, 2008, 7:37pm; Reply: 9
PT, you can replace your kale with neutral for you collard greens and beet greens.  Somebody has to eat up all the ones that I can no longer enjoy!  They are both SO good!

Now when we buy beets, my gatherer gets the greens and I get the beets.  Used to be the other way around lol!
Posted by: Mercedes, Monday, January 21, 2008, 7:39pm; Reply: 10
Yes twist, I'm none too pleased with the veggie list. However, where you don't like raw spinach, I have a worse problem of not liking any green vegetable cooked. Ok, I'll tolerate celery in a soup. But I've never liked anything green cooked. On top of that, I don't like peas, asparagus (you have the asparagus, I'll have the whipped cream in this world), green beans, bamboo shoots, or near about any other green veggies besides kale, cabbage, and lettuce- and none are bennie. I like my peppers and spinach, LOVE my tomatoes, but that's about it for my bennies. Mushrooms? I have an aversion to fungus grown in manure...

I miss carrots. I LOVED carrots. Shredded on a salad, pureed in a soup, steamed as a side for dinner. And sweet potato, sweet wonderful baked til crispy and eaten with basil mayonaise sweet potatoes... OH how I miss them.

Yeah, I'm not eating enough veggies on this plan, and I'm really not sure what to do about it.

(And I still miss banana... I was a bad girl and ate one yesterday... oh, it was divine...)
Posted by: 312 (Guest), Monday, January 21, 2008, 7:44pm; Reply: 11
Tonight I am going to make another giada dish, stuffed red peppers and zucchini with turkey meat,
topped with tomato sauce.  I think that she may have used a few avoids in the meat mixture, but I will do what I can to adjust that part.  We seem to eat a lot of zucchini around here lately.  It's very low in carbs....I hate green pepper, but love red or yellow ones, they taste different to me, and don't repeat (make me burp).  I love cooked escarole, that's another old italian favorite.   Have you tried fennel bulb yet?  That's one that I had in a salad with grapefruit from Racheal Ray that was delish.
But  I see that romaine is neutral, so I wouldn't hesitate to use it or other salad greens.  Broccoli will
be missed, but I was eating it alot also.  I have heard that the carbs in it can sort of creep up on you.
How about tomatoes with basil leaves, olive oil, and maybe some ricotta or farmers cheese.  Or forget the cheese and use some thinly sliced onions.....I am making myself hungry here!
Posted by: 312 (Guest), Monday, January 21, 2008, 7:47pm; Reply: 12
Tonight I am going to make another giada dish, stuffed red peppers and zucchini with turkey meat,
topped with tomato sauce.  I think that she may have used a few avoids in the meat mixture, but I will do what I can to adjust that part.  We seem to eat a lot of zucchini around here lately.  It's very low in carbs....I hate green pepper, but love red or yellow ones, they taste different to me, and don't repeat (make me burp).  I love cooked escarole, that's another old italian favorite.   Have you tried fennel bulb yet.  That's one that I had in a salad with grapefruit from Racheal Ray that was delish.
But  I see that romaine is neutral, so I wouldn't hesitate to use it or other salad greens.  Broccoli will
be missed, but I was eating it alot also.  I have heard that the carbs in it can sort of creep up on you.
How about tomatoes with basil leaves, olive oil, and maybe some ricotta or farmers cheese.  Or forget the cheese and use some thinly sliced onions.....I am making myself hungry here!  I see no one is mentioning dandelion greens.  They can be bitter, but I think I may revisit them, maybe make them into a quiche like meal, with cottage cheese, egg, onion, etc.....
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Monday, January 21, 2008, 7:53pm; Reply: 13
Quoted from Gumby
PT, you can replace your kale with neutral for you collard greens and beet greens.  Somebody has to eat up all the ones that I can no longer enjoy!  They are both SO good!

Well, for that matter, I can enjoy superfood-for-me turnip greens, which are wonderful.  It's just that I LOVE kale and don't get the rationale for the avoid status, but *shrug*.  I do trust Dr. D.

The thing I really will miss on a near-daily basis until I get the hang of things/get into the swing of things, gatherer-wise, is broccoli.  I didn't realize this, but broccoli had become my staple veggie!  I kept bags and bags of the frozen florets and would use them in everything I cooked.  But there are neutrals I can substitute and thus I should quit my whining.  For example, what is wrong with good old green beans?  I can certainly use those.  Or the superfood asparagus.

But shouldn't one eat a cruciferous veggie now and again?  We aren't allowed to have cauliflower or broccoli, what kind of world are we living in?  How is a gal supposed to lower her cancer risk, etc., around here?

I don't know...the veggie area is the only thing that is going to take some getting used to for me.  Well, that and the no chicken thing.  That one's brutal.  But we won't even go there...for now!

;)

Posted by: Beth, Monday, January 21, 2008, 7:59pm; Reply: 14
I am another gatherer who sees our veggie list as slim pickins.
i actually have steamed baby spinach with ghee butter twice a day.
Love asparagus but only the tops....upper and lower stems seem so stringy to me. Was thinking about organic V8 (vegetable juice) but our food list says no for tomato as a juice ...only the whole tomato.
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Monday, January 21, 2008, 8:01pm; Reply: 15
Quoted from Beth
I am another gatherer who sees our veggie list as slim pickins.
i actually have steamed baby spinach with ghee butter twice a day.
Love asparagus but only the tops....upper and lower stems seem so stringy to me. Was thinking about organic V8 (vegetable juice) but our food list says no for tomato as a juice ...only the whole tomato.

WHAT?   :o  No tomato juice?  I didn't even see that one.  Hold on, let me trust but verify...

...Good Lord, she is right, tomato juice is a flatline avoid, as in, no black dot, no nothing:  it is a toxin to avoid.  WHAT?

Okay, question to the assembled gathering of gatherers:

If whole tomatoes are beneficial (superfoods), yet tomato juice is an avoid (toxin to avoid), where does that leave my beloved tomato marinara sauce from the HFS?  And what of making pureed tomato soup?  I'm wondering if tomato juice is an avoid because of all the sodium in your typical brand at the store?  If not, this could be a nightmare.  But if so, I might take a view of it as I do of mayo:  storebought is an avoid, but homemade, containing the superfoods of egg, olive oil, lemon and sea salt has GOT to be beneficial (in small amounts befitting of added fat, of course), right?  Right!  Well, same with tomato juice...right?  Right!

If tomato is a superfood, then I'm thinking so is homemade and/or organic, low-sodium tomato juice and other items involving tomato puree, such as the marinara and soups, yes?

omg, too bad we aren't on the official site so we could ask that one.  That is a good question, if I do say so myself.
Posted by: Cheryl_O_Blogger, Monday, January 21, 2008, 8:04pm; Reply: 16
Quoted from Peppermint Twist
Okay, my other staples were sweet potatoes and kale, which also are black dotters.  What is with these black dots?  I assume broccoli is a black dotter due to being a goitrogen, and sweet potatoes are there due to being a tad starchy and we need to be ever so low on the GI (although I think that is pushing it, as root veggies tend to keep me, for one, out of the CHIPS, but anyway...), but I don't know why kale is in there!  Kale should be a diamond superfood, I mean spinach is, why not kale?  No justice, no peace!



Kale is very high in Vitamin K, that's the only thing that jumps out at me.  It's 817 units per 100g compared to 482 for spinach.  I'm missing lots of the veggies too.
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Monday, January 21, 2008, 8:26pm; Reply: 17
Quoted from Cheryl_O_Blogger
Kale is very high in Vitamin K, that's the only thing that jumps out at me.  It's 817 units per 100g compared to 482 for spinach.  I'm missing lots of the veggies too.

But wouldn't that be a GOOD thing?  Eggs are high in K, too, and they are a superfood.

...I guess I'm just in a fiesty mood today, forgive me.  I love kale, but I can live without it.  Truth be told, it wasn't something I had often.  But broccoli, well, now we are getting down to something I ate all the time.  But at least I understand the rationale, namely the whole goitrogen thing (I'm just guessing that's the rationale).  And, we can have asparagus and green beans instead.

When you eat out, though, restaurants often have broccoli but less often have asparagus or even green beans.  They will often substitute broccoli for sides like pasta or potatoes, or even sub it for pasta in pasta dishes (For example, The Macaroni Grille will do this...they actually have asparagus, though, now that I think about that particular example!).

Anyway...I guess like anything this is just a matter of giving oneself the time and keeping one's mind open enough to get used to things.  Change.  Out with the old, in with the new.

It was just easier with the BTD, when it was out with things like wheat, instead of out with things like broccoli.  I mean, this is taking things to another whole level, ya know?  Which is a good thing, I guess.

Hey, if this plan takes the weight off, I will be one satisfied, broccoli-free pup!

Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Monday, January 21, 2008, 8:33pm; Reply: 18
Quoted from Jenny
Hi Edna,
you know you've been on the BTD for so long that your detox issues must be less than the average person coming off the street from a totally inappropriate diet? so, if you wanted, my guess is that going back to some of your black dots at this early stage would not be calamitous.
cheers,
Jenny

You would think so but over the holidays I was a baaaahd little (or not so little) O.  That dang Temptation Island sucked me into its swirling vortex of corn syrup and wheat.  I am now firmly back on track, though.  Actually, ironically, I went through MUCH more of a "detox" going to GTD from BTD than I did going from utter cr*p to the BTD!  Everything about starting the BTD was wonderful, everything was positive.  But with this change--and this could TOTALLY be coincidence, timing-wise--I came down with coldzilla and went through what I consider to be a very deep detox via my respiratory system, which I believe was much, MUCH needed, actually.  My upper-respiratory system is now doing better than it has since before I got that double ear infection about two years ago or whenever it was.  Plus I feel like I just got rid of a lot of deep-down, cellular-level toxins.  I am STILL "expectorating" the remnants of coldzilla, but it is all good.  I'm telling you, this thing is a positive, big time.  This cold, that is.  I feel it was necessary, probably brought on by stress, all the avoids over the holiday season, and also changing to the new diet, although it really wasn't a huge diet change for me from the BTD...but it was just enough somehow to help the detox along.

Anyway, about the black dots, I'm trying to stay away for at least 3 months, but really I should give it until I get the weight off.  However, that will be a while, with 53 lbs to go, so I'm not going to sweat the small stuff.  For example, I had chicken today for the first time since beginning the GTD.  No big.  But at the same time, I'm not buying chicken anymore, grocery-wise, which is a big, big change, as that is one neutral that had really become a staple for me, rightly or, I'm guessing, wrongly.

Posted by: Cheryl_O_Blogger, Monday, January 21, 2008, 10:47pm; Reply: 19
Maybe vitamin K is good for a balanced gatherer, but since one of the properties is to help with blood clotting, you go moderate on that until closer to a good weight and health issues managed.  And also, it's not just Os now, so other blood types might not need as much aggression with thickening up the blood.  I don't have any of the risk factors for heart disease or stroke other than being overweight, so I may not be so cautious about kale.  The thing is I rarely used it.  I would have it in a fresh vegetable juice blend that a local health food store makes, but that was pretty infrequent.  One interesting thing was that cooking increases the availability of vitamin K, so in this case the raw vegetable would be less of a source.  With BTD and GTD it's usually about balance. We definitely have good sources of all the vitamins and nutrients, they're just hand picked according to BTD or GTD.  It might not be the vitamin K, but I'm sure there was good reason or reasons for the black dot status.

I'm in an if it ain't broke don't fix it mood right now since BTD is going well.  Of course, I want to add all the new superfooods and ignore the new toxins.  That does seem to be Dr. Ds order of priority.  Start with adding the good stuff, but get rid of the bad stuff if you want the best results.
Posted by: Melissa_J, Monday, January 21, 2008, 10:54pm; Reply: 20
Quoted from Beth
Love asparagus but only the tops....upper and lower stems seem so stringy to me.


When cooking asparagus, be sure to break off the stem end, instead of cutting it off.  It will break in the best spot to leave all the stringiness behind.  Some break pretty high up, close to the tips, some break lower, but that way it all turns out good.

Posted by: yvonneb, Monday, January 21, 2008, 11:14pm; Reply: 21
Dear Gatherers, I may yet join you, but the jury's still out if I will be a Hunter or Gatherer. Until I know for sure I intended to combine the two foodlists and eat the bits both have in common. Unfortunatyely this is not possible, the lists are just too different. Yes, the Gatherers do not get many easily available vegetables. Easily available as in what one can get in Restaurants, friend's houses, family's houses and grocery stores. I live in Ireland and the Irish LIVE on potatos, carrots and broccoli! I suspect that a lot of the foods listed are available in American food stores, but not in Irish ones. If I turn out to be a Gatherer I have decided to wait with changing my diet until summer, when it is easier to live on salads.

I was also wondering: if one hasn't eaten a food (at all) because of following the BTD and this food now turns out to be a black dot, surely one can eat this particular food straight away? That would enlarge the food lists tremenduosly for a lot of BTD dieters out there!

I think I will start a new thread with this and see what the others out there think...
Posted by: Whimsical, Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 1:01am; Reply: 22
My old faves: kale, broccoli, carrots, sweet potato...

Kale and broccoli are both goitrogens and carrots and sweet potato are higher on the GI scale, so I get WHY they are black dots...  However, I too am struggling to eat enough veggies now...

I am buying both spinach and a salad mix in bulk and making salads with that and bell peppers.  I am also eating celery (which I love!) and green beans (which I like to think of as a veggie, even though I think they really fall under veggie proteins).  

However, these foods and most fruit are all "cold" foods according to Chinese dietary therapy, and therefore not a great choice in cold weather or for people with Yang deficiencies (like me!), so I need to tweak this a bit I think.  Once I have time to actually think it all through...
Posted by: Mercedes, Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 1:05am; Reply: 23
yes Kate, this time of year, I prefer stew and soup to salads and smoothies, but haven't figured out how to do either without root veggies :) (Ok, I suppose peppers, tomato, celery and barley would work, but sooooooooo not the same...)
Posted by: 312 (Guest), Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 3:10pm; Reply: 24
I know that beans are considered a "veg protein" on the gtd.  Last night I made a recipe from the gtd site for Butter Beans with Parsley.  Basically they are heated up (from can) in evoo, with some onion and then parsley at the end.  They were so good!  Sort of like giant cannelini beans.  This diet is resembling what I imagine italian/french farmers would eat.....I guess I may do more beans that I did on the btd.  Then I was only having blackbeans occasionally....in things like chili.  
But I must admit, I am adding more gtd foods, but still only eating around 75% compliant.  Still not wheat, etc.  I am gradually adding in more things that are bennies.  Janeeyo's soup above sounds wonderful! ;)
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 3:35pm; Reply: 25
Quoted from Whimsical
Kale and broccoli are both goitrogens and carrots and sweet potato are higher on the GI scale, so I get WHY they are black dots...
  
Well, I don't, because some of the goitrogens listed in your link are Gatherer beneficials/superfoods, such as millet, spinach and peaches.  ???

And about carrots and sweet potatoes and the glycemic index, carrot juice and sweet potato are ranked "low" on the GI (see link:  http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:HyS6h0FTaxcJ:www.southbeach-diet-plan.com/glycemicfoodchart.htm+carrot+and+glycemic+index&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us).

*sigh*/serenity now!  I'm just trying to go with the flow...but the undertow keeps pulling me back to broccoli, although I'm resisting!

Quoted Text
...these foods [spinach, salad mix, bell peppers, celery, green beans] and most fruit are all "cold" foods according to Chinese dietary therapy, and therefore not a great choice in cold weather or for people with Yang deficiencies (like me!), so I need to tweak this a bit I think.

Fascinating point!
Posted by: Whimsical, Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 12:22am; Reply: 26
Quoted from Peppermint Twist
  
Well, I don't, because some of the goitrogens listed in your link are Gatherer beneficials/superfoods, such as millet, spinach and peaches.  ???


Good point, haven't actually looked at that list in awhile...  

My understanding was always that the cruciferous veggies were the worst for thyroid inhibiting activity, in addition to soy, which I don't know as much about, since I don't eat it...  I never thought that peaches, peanuts, etc had anything to do with it.  I wonder if there are different degrees of severity here.

As for GI, I have never been able to reconcile the different lists I've seen with each other, much less with my own experience and perception.  However, there are fruits on the Gatherer diet that are likely higher GI than carrots, for example, so maybe there is another reason why carrots and sweet potatoes are black dots?  In fact, the Gatherer diet seems to be low on root veggies in general, so maybe there is something else considered there.

I miss carrots.
Posted by: Whimsical, Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 12:26am; Reply: 27
Quoted from Peppermint Twist
  
Fascinating point!


Before GTD came out, I was gearing up to write a blog about Chinese dietary therapy, but now that I'm rejigging my own diet and busy, busy, busy, it hasn't got done yet!  

However, I am doing  a presentation on the topic in February, so there will be a blog soon!

It's interesting, actually, because a typical Gatherer very possibly has one or more Yang deficiency patterns, according to TCM, which line up somewhat with hypothyroidism in western medicine.  However, trying to transition to the Gatherer diet AND eat warming foods and follow other Yang deficiency recommendations (like zero raw fruits and veggies allowed!) is impossible.  
Posted by: Squirrel, Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 1:35am; Reply: 28
Quoted from Whimsical
Before GTD came out, I was gearing up to write a blog about Chinese dietary therapy, but now that I'm rejigging my own diet and busy, busy, busy, it hasn't got done yet!
I shall look out for that with great interest. I was told by my TCM practitioner here that one easy way of helping yang deficiency was never to drink cold drinks. Always let them warm up to room temperature at least, body temperature at best. And never have smoothies/ice-blends. When I first came out here two-and-a-half years ago, I was always too hot and drinking cold drinks to cool me down, and as soon as I stopped, my own thermostat kicked in and I stopped getting overheated.

I've noticed that Chinese workmen don't drink cold drinks when they're working outside in the hot sunshine. They drink warm tea instead, which looks bizarre but obviously works.

Oh and back to the veggie discussion (sorry to sidetrack there! :B) have you tried wilted salad? You can do this with all our green leafy veggies, right at the last moment before dishing up the rest of the meal. Heat up a glug of extra virgin olive oil in a frying-pan. Add the chopped leaves and a sprinkle of herb salt, paprika and umeboshi plum vinegar, add a splash of boiling water out of the kettle (which should sizzle), and shake it all up to mix the flavours. Put the lid on and turn the heat off. Call the family away from the computer/TV, put the meat/carbs on the plates, (call them again ::)) then the leaves will be ready to serve. Sorry I don't do measurements except creative ones  ;)
Posted by: Debra+, Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 2:38am; Reply: 29
I love baby spinach and baby romaine with red onions and celery too.  I used to make a carrot, onion, celery salad, but now instead of the carrots I use zucchini and/or red peppers.  Don't forget your salad base can be neutral...just add the supers to it. ;)

What about okra, fiddleheads and zucchini.  Great with onions and red peppers in a stir-fry.  Yummilicious. :D

I know what asparagus is...what is asparagus pea?  Nevermind, I just googled it.  Hmmmph...I thought the O nonnie diet was expensive and difficult at first.  ;)

Debra :)
Posted by: gulfcoastguy, Thursday, January 24, 2008, 4:55pm; Reply: 30
Well my HFS has frozen goat. For somethings like Stilton cheese I have to drive all the way over to New Orleans though. I'm cautiously optimistic over this new Nomad diet. Between last thursday and this wednesday I lost another 3.5 pounds for about 10 since before Thanksgiving.  That kind of freaked the Doctor out along with my HDL climbing from a low point of 32 to 49. Still have high triglycerides, though lower, and my LDL of 4. Total cholesterol to HDL ratio of 2.49.  She asked what I was doing. Maybe in a few months more I'll clue her in. I started to be saying I had cut down on wheat and got "but you still need carbs" Telling her that there were still sweet potatoes, oats and rice calmed her down though. Not really being all that carefull about the avoids but have added a lot of the diamond foods like kiwi and of this last weekend beer for the first time in 6 years. Strange, beer a diet food?
Posted by: Whimsical, Thursday, January 24, 2008, 7:32pm; Reply: 31
OK, I have another take on this whole GI thing...  There are really two factors to consider here:

Glycemic index tells you how FAST the substance turns into sugar, but doesn't reveal the overall effect on blood sugar levels
Glycemic load takes into account the GI and the amount of carbohydrate to be converted to sugar, so this is much more useful for understanding the effect on blood sugar

Glycemic index alone is not a very useful tool, because while something might release sugar quickly, if there isn't much sugar there to begin with, the effect on blood sugar is negligable.  For example, watermelon is considered high GI, but it is low GL, so it will not spike blood sugar much unless you eat A LOT of it.

So, both factors need to be considered together.  If we look at the Gatherer diet, it seems that it is not just about GI (if it was, watermelon wouldn't be a diamond superfood).  

I just did a quick search on glycemic load and found that watermelons, peaches, and grapefruit (Gatherer diamond superfoods) are all much lower in glycemic load than bananas and sweet potatoes (dot toxins)...

This is by no means and exhaustive analysis, and it still doesn't explain carrots (which seem low in both GI and GL) or yams (which seem high in GL), but I think it helps to make MORE sense out of our fruit & veggie situation.

Some links on Glycemic Load:
Wikipedia
Table of GI and GL
Harvard med School
Posted by: Whimsical, Thursday, January 24, 2008, 7:51pm; Reply: 32
The same idea probably also applies to goitrogens.  We have some lists of foods that contain goitrogens, but in what amount?  What effect do these foods have on thyroid function overall?  I did a quick search on goitrogens but all I found were more lists...

I suspect Dr. D has both the access to information and the time to actually investigate these issues sufficiently to make dietary recommendations on them and that this is what he did while writing the book.
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Thursday, January 24, 2008, 7:52pm; Reply: 33
Quoted from Whimsical
OK, I have another take on this whole GI thing...  There are really two factors to consider here:

Glycemic index tells you how FAST the substance turns into sugar, but doesn't reveal the overall effect on blood sugar levels
Glycemic load takes into account the GI and the amount of carbohydrate to be converted to sugar, so this is much more useful for understanding the effect on blood sugar

Glycemic index alone is not a very useful tool, because while something might release sugar quickly, if there isn't much sugar there to begin with, the effect on blood sugar is negligable.  For example, watermelon is considered high GI, but it is low GL, so it will not spike blood sugar much unless you eat A LOT of it.

So, both factors need to be considered together.  If we look at the Gatherer diet, it seems that it is not just about GI (if it was, watermelon wouldn't be a diamond superfood).  

I just did a quick search on glycemic load and found that watermelons, peaches, and grapefruit (Gatherer diamond superfoods) are all much lower in glycemic load than bananas and sweet potatoes (dot toxins)...

This is by no means and exhaustive analysis, and it still doesn't explain carrots (which seem low in both GI and GL) or yams (which seem high in GL), but I think it helps to make MORE sense out of our fruit & veggie situation.

Some links on Glycemic Load:
Wikipedia
Table of GI and GL
Harvard med School

Whimsical, you've done it again:  GREAT post.  Not just good, mind you, but great.

Glycemic load:  yessssssssssssss!  It's all starting to make sense now...kinda sorta...except for the broc and kale.  But GL is a much less "reductionist" approach than GI, and we know our Dr. D. is all about approaching things holistically.

Meanwhile, back at the inn, I am realizing more and more, as I've been posting in other posts, that I think our collective (i.e., all us G2s) angst over our veggie sitch is based on the fact that we have not retrained our brains yet from BTD and we just need to figure out what veggies we CAN have in place of the ones we have to give up, and the world will make sense again.  Like, as I've said but it bears repeating, I bought some frozen mixed bell pepper strips to stock my freezer with last night, in addition to the asparagus and green beans.  I have a bag of onions in my fridge, and that thick, chunky, homemade (by the HFS) tomato marinara they make.  Hey, if Reagan thought ketchup was a veggie, then surely this fabulous superfood marinara counts.  And now I'm thinking a lot about MUSHROOMS, as what is to stop me from just sashaying into the store and BUYING SOME, pretty as you please?!   :D  See, on BTD, I would never have done such a brazen thing, but NOW:  oh YEAH, babe, let's push through that invisible barrier and get to the SUPERFOOD!  And what of artichoke hearts, which, true, are merely neutral now, yet they could certainly go in place of sweet potatoes (I'm talking about FRESH arti hearts, not the marinated kind, but fresh steamed...oh yeeeeeah, babe!) in anything.

I mean, we just need to realize that, for everything we are asked to give up, there are ALTERNATIVES that we are getting BACK.  This is the thing that I, for one, was not fully grokking until just this very day!

Hang in there, people!  Mushrooms, artichoke hearts, bell peppers, all these things will get us through!
Posted by: Whimsical, Thursday, January 24, 2008, 9:11pm; Reply: 34
Kukicha is twig tea (made from twigs and bark from the tea plant, Camellia sinensis) and is therefore extremely low in caffeine, in fact it is considered the lowest in caffeine of teas made from the tea plant.

Often, kukicha (twigs and bark) is mixed with regular green tea (leaves), so if that is what you are drinking, then yes, it does have caffeine.
Posted by: Mrs T O+, Friday, January 25, 2008, 7:42pm; Reply: 35
Earlier in the thread, you mentioned squash bening a dot or avoid. I noticed that 'butternut' is listed under veg. proteins. Maybe you can get it after all!
I wonder what they mean by squash being an avoid. Does that mean winter squashes or does it mean yellow squash?
Zucchini is listed on either hunter or gatherer, but yellow isn't listed anywhere. Clarification, please!
Thanx!
S S & L,
Mrs "T"    O+ [hunter or gatherer??]
Posted by: gulfcoastguy, Friday, January 25, 2008, 8:46pm; Reply: 36
There is a nut that is called butternut and a winter squash called butternut. Two entirely different things unfortunately.
Posted by: Whimsical, Monday, January 28, 2008, 1:52am; Reply: 37
Quoted from Whimsical

This is by no means and exhaustive analysis, and it still doesn't explain carrots (which seem low in both GI and GL) or yams (which seem high in GL), but I think it helps to make MORE sense out of our fruit & veggie situation.


It also does not explain basmati rice, which according to this site and others I checked, has a pretty high glycemic load, way higher than some of our toxin veggies & fruit.  

Obviously Dr. D considered more than just GL, but I am still feeling puzzled over the carbohydrate recos in the book since the frequencies are the same (2-3 times daily) for all genotypes except Teachers, which are 2-5 times daily.  

I am finding in this last month of doing GTD that I now have a "gut" resembling the one I had before I started BTD.  Back then I could never understand why I was not overweight but my midsection was bloated so much!  This seems to be a result of white basmati rice now, even if I stick to one serving of 1/2 cup cooked.  I don't think quinoa (which, coincidentally has a much lower GL value) has the same effect.  I'm starting to wonder if this is just too many carbs for this O-non and I need to tweak the frequencies around.

Thoughts?
Posted by: Mrs T O+, Monday, January 28, 2008, 3:39am; Reply: 38
Like the dairy situation, I'm sure that the carbs need to be lessened for certain folks.
As for the gatherer veggie sitch being dire, I think it can be. I love veggies & today if I were a hunter, I was completely compliant as far as I know.
If I am a gatherer, I ate several avoids (incl. dots) of various foods - 2 fruits, broccoli, chicken, rice, etc!
The situation would be very dire & I don't think I can do 3-6 months on the gatherer diet aas far as fruits/veggies are concerned.
  I guess no matter what our GTs are, we will all be complaining about something!!
S S & L,
Mrs "T"   O+ [hoping to be a hunter, but waiting to gather more info!]
Posted by: Brighid45, Monday, January 28, 2008, 6:22pm; Reply: 39
Here's the list I'm using at the moment (which includes beans, nuts and seeds):
almonds and almond butter, cannelloni beans, great northern beans, white beans, green beans, peas, asparagus, celery, mushrooms, onions, pecans, bell peppers, chile peppers, pumpkin seeds, shallots, spinach, tomatoes, turnip greens, walnuts, and zucchini. I'm also using neutrals like lettuces, spring greens and artichoke hearts. So for me there's plenty to work with here. I plan to add more veggies like okra and fiddlehead ferns, and other things I haven't had much experience cooking or eating.

Check out the recipe for mini zucchini frittatas I posted in the Cook Right forum over the weekend--easy peasy, tasty and good for you too! :)
Posted by: 796 (Guest), Monday, January 28, 2008, 7:47pm; Reply: 40
Kohlrabi is now neutral for us gatherers and was beneficial on the BTD. It works well in stews and soups too. Goes really well with lamb and barley to make a hearty soup.  :)
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Friday, February 15, 2008, 8:36pm; Reply: 41
Okay, update on the G2 veggie sitch:

I think, as with everything when you first start a new diet, it is just a matter of a learning curve and getting used to things.  My old BTD ways of broccoli and sweet potato as staples are contraindicated now, so I have found some new things in the frozen food section of the HFS to replace the broccoli florets, including but not limited to:  asparagus spears and tri-color bell pepper strips.  The problem with the latter (the pepper strips) is that they cook down to practically NOTHING.  Then we have the former (the asparagus) which takes forever TO cook *lol*.  But I really, really like the asparagus.

I've also been buying bags of green beans, which are light, refreshing and versatile.  I'm trying to focus more on the asparagus, though, as it is a superfood and green beans are neutral.

Today, I'm thinking of getting some fresh mushrooms.  It has been years since I enjoyed mushrooms!

I'm still finding it a bit challenging to eat enough veggies daily, between my old staples now being toxins to avoid, and also the fact that I'm eating WAY more grains on my GTD than I did on my BTD.  Oddly, I always noticed that, if I cut out grains on the BTD, I ate way more fruit (which was a GOOD, good thing for me), and vice-versa.  Whereas, with the GTD, I notice that with adding IN more grains, it is the veggies that are going by the wayside, frighteningly.  I do tend to eat enough G2 fruits such as grapefruit and grapefruit juice, lemon juice, etc., but if I don't consciously work it at, it would be very easy for me to simply replace every speck of vegetable in my G2 diet with GRAIN instead.  Very easy.  That is what I tend toward if I don't intentionally steer myself towards the veggies.

Tonight, I am going to buy some bags of salad veggies.  I know most of the veggies (lettuces) in the mix are merely neutral, but I'm finding I really need to get in some fresh veggies and there is nothing wrong with some friendly, phytonutrient-rich, chi-laden, fiber-sporting, variety-adding neutrals in this man's army, right?!

So, now that I've been on the Gatherer diet for a bit, I'm finding that it is still a daily challenge for me to incorporate veggies, to choose veggies over grains, but I am on it and I can do it when I set my mind to it!

Thank goodness for asparagus, bell peppers, green beans, salads and mushrooms.  ...'shrrrroooooooms!  I can't wait to enjoy them again!

How are my fellow G2's doing in the vegetable department?  Any thrilling discoveries?
Posted by: Mrs T O+, Friday, February 15, 2008, 10:10pm; Reply: 42
I'm still not doing well enough w/ gatherer veggies. I have added, what I had eaten years before, cooked escarole & endive. Most people eat them raw, but they are delicious cooked IMO. Of course, unless you get really fresh ones, they are a pain to clean, but don't seem as bad to clean as collards. They also cook much faster in comparison.
Another problem is getting more superfood meats as beef is only a neutral. We have a lot of it from buying a half animal.
ALso lamb is more expensive & where do we get ostrich??
It's sad to know that for so long beef & bananas were bennies for Os, & now are very mediocre for gatherers.
I'm kind of thinking of straddling the fence with veggies until SWAMI gets going. Who knows? If I get the money & time, I can do better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for listening to my ruminations.
S S & L,
Mrs "T"     O+ [hunting & gathering.....]
Posted by: jayneeo, Friday, February 15, 2008, 10:20pm; Reply: 43
here's my fallback: onions. sauteed, they can go with any meal, including and especially brkfst! they cook up while you scramble your eggs. Now if you work and can't cook in the morning it still would be a good light supper. "eggs, onions and mushrooms." And by the way, green beans are a superfood under vegetable proteins. And hello? spinach!!! which I love. but it still isn't as easy as the "O" vegetables. I'm having a black dot food tonight. I'm putting sweet potatoes in with my roast. For the granddaughter, (yeah, right).....
Posted by: gulfcoastguy, Saturday, February 16, 2008, 3:22am; Reply: 44
If your sautee mushrooms in ghee or olive oil maybe with a little onion then poor beaten eggs over it to make a frittata it is a very quick and easy breakfast. Of course as a nomad I also add a little jarlsberg cheese. It's still good without it though, just add herbs of your choice.
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Monday, February 18, 2008, 6:22pm; Reply: 45
Quoted from kipperkid
Although juices counted as fruit under BTD, I think they count as drinks under GTD, so don't be fooled into thinking you are having more fruit than you are. :-/

Oh, and watermelon.  I left out watermelon!  I could live on it, it is so fiiiiiine.  Love it.

Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Monday, February 18, 2008, 6:32pm; Reply: 46
Quoted from jayneeo
...green beans are a superfood under vegetable proteins.

:o   :D   :D   :D  JAYNEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Jayney, Jayney bo baney, bananafana fo faney, mi my mo Mayney:  JAYNEY!!!!!!

This is HUGE!!!!!!!

I had not seen that, I just assumed that green beans were neutral since they aren't listed under veggies!  But no!  NOT neutral!  Superfood!!!!!!  There they are, listed under vegetable proteins!!!  How totally tremendous can something GET?!!!!!!!!!

Thank you, thank you, thank you for this fabulous bulletin!!!!!!!

Green beans are a superfood!!!!!!  YESSSSSSSSS!!!!!!

OMG, now that I'm noticing "vegetable proteins", which apparently I have never looked at before *LOL*, guess what else is in there, duuuude?  PEAS!  Peas, I tell you!  PEAS!

omg, omg, omg, omg:  So green beans and peas are both superfoods!  That is two more veggies under the superfood category, G2's!!!!!!

Green beans are the HUGE one, though!  These can now be a staple, which is great, as they are cheaper than the asparagus, and a little more versatile.

Jayney!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you, boar expert!*   :D   :K)



* You're a LOST fan, you'll get that Sawyer reference, yes?

(clap)  (hugegrin)   (funny)   (woot)   (dance)
Posted by: gulfcoastguy, Monday, February 18, 2008, 6:54pm; Reply: 47
Time to make split pea soup. It's super easy with a crockpot, some onion, some indian type spices, and some turkey.
Posted by: Peppermint Twist, Monday, February 18, 2008, 7:21pm; Reply: 48
Quoted from gulfcoastguy
Time to make split pea soup. It's super easy with a crockpot, some onion, some indian type spices, and some turkey.

:D

I'm starting to LOVE this Gatherer diet so much!!!!

Last night, I had a salad with a dressing made with cottage cheese.  Of all the foods the GTD has given back to me, I think I appreciate cottage cheese the most.  Dang, it is nice in a salad dressing.  I made the dressing out of cottage cheese, pesto, lemon juice, olive oil, sea salt, and then one avoid was that I used a LITTLE bit of this seafood-cream-cheese spread that the HFS makes (I mean, a little--like, one tablespoon).  OMG!  Even if one had not been a bad pup like moi with that seafood spread, the dressing would have been wonderful.

All the G2 foods come very, very naturally to me, it's almost weird how I gravitate toward them.  The BTD felt natural and right, too.  This just seems even more so in most ways.  ...Though I still miss the BTD in some ways (sweet potatoes!  broccoli!).  It is very nice after so long on the O non diet to be able to eat more GRAINS daily, as it was very hard to do the whole "zero to one serving per WEEK" thing for me.  That said, when I actually went grain-free on the BTD and intense on the fruit smoothies was when I had the best results EVER, both health AND weight-wise.  But, thing is:  that is all well and good but it is so, so, so hard to SUSTAIN a grain-free lifestyle in this society.  At least, for me it is.  I give full props to those who can do it.  This is just much easier for me.  More relaxed.  Plus the superfoods all feel like "M'but of course!"  It's sort of that feeling I had when reading and starting the BTD of "I knew it all the time, I KNEW these things were good for me, even when the whole world told me they were bad, and I knew these other things were bad for me, even when the whole world told me they were good!", only multiplied exponentially.  That feeling itself was more intense with the BTD because I was coming out of decades of the world telling me to eat nothing but eleven servings of pasta per day and no fat and no red meat, ETC., so with the BTD, it was more of a "Thank GOD I've found you!" feeling.  With the GTD, I'm coming off of already eating very healthily on the BTD, yet there is that feeling yet again of:  oh, yeah, I knew that!  It isn't as pronounced or intense because my change in lifestyle isn't that pronounced or intense, but it is way more individualized this time.  It's like, oh, yeah, I knew I missed oatmeal this entire time and couldn't shake that, I knew I missed cottage cheese, I knew watermelon and grapefruit were bennies (i.e., superfoods) for me, etc.  I can't explain it, but it's like  ...okay, maybe this will be a way of describing it:

The BTD was like coming home
The GTD is like finding my own room

Posted by: Brighid45, Monday, February 18, 2008, 11:05pm; Reply: 49
Some ideas for veggies for Gatherers (and these are just a very few of the many ways to combine superfood veggies):

~~sauteed onions, peppers and garlic with roasted meats--also a good base for stir-fry. Try adding fresh ginger and garlic and a fresh peach chopped in pieces, or a little fresh pineapple, or both--fantastic!

~~roasted asparagus--just brush fresh asparagus spears with some olive oil and roast, you won't believe how elegant and delicious this is! Good with any meat or for breakfast with a frittata.

~~steamed zucchini with onions, garlic and fresh basil

~~fresh or frozen green beans cooked with a little olive oil, summer savory and chopped onion

~~fresh or frozen peas lightly cooked with mint

~~stewed tomatoes with onions, garlic and basil--OR with onions, cumin and chiles
Posted by: 312 (Guest), Wednesday, February 20, 2008, 8:51pm; Reply: 50
Oh yummy, I've been away from the genotype diet stuff for a while, want to get back on the bandwagon.  These veggies sound so simple and delicious.  I already roast asparagus and love to
add lemon after it's cooked.   I found a recipe for green beans roasted with some slivered shallots, then add lemon zest and crushed marcona almonds before serving, man is that another keeper!
But these suggestions sound great!  Do we have a gatherer recipe thread?   ??)
Posted by: Ellie, Friday, February 22, 2008, 2:07am; Reply: 51
Regarding vegetables, in some ways i was quite relieved - i had a feeling that some of those supposedly ok veggies didn't agree with me, although i hadn't quite managed to pin it down properly. (yep, had my suspicions about broccoli!And tried sweet potato for a while but knew that didn't like me either) And some veggies I had been avoiding (like carrots as they are on my 'too oestregenic' list - & yes, could tell they didn't like me very much too). But it is still frustrating that a lot of the local organic veggies available are no good for me.

But to make up for it, I have started having more onions (for a while I thought these didn't agree with me, but seem ok now) and tonight I have ventured some garlic (organic,local) - again, avoided this as part of the oestregen issue but at the moment I seem ok, and really enjoyed it! So maybe taking out some of the other foods means my body can tolerate different foods.

I now have celery in the fridge, which I have found ok, but I still associate it with Weight-watchers (that & cottage cheese!) so psychologically I find it hard to eat. And in fact I have had two tubs of cottage cheese with pineapple which I have enjoyed (don't really like it plain though  :X)

What intrigues me is that some of the leaves of the vegetables are ok? I don't have the book to hand so I can't remember,is this literally what would be pulled off the top of the vegetable? Or have I just imagined this? Maybe if so, I could ask the local place where they grow veggies to keep some for me!
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