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BTD Forums  /  Nonnie Clubhouse  /  BTD is helping but not enough
Posted by: TJ, Monday, December 10, 2007, 2:36am
So this is just a vent session, I just need someone out there to hear me right now.  If I get some useful advice out of this it will be nice, but sometimes the biggest help is just writing it out.

I've been on BTD about 3 1/2 months now.  A month in, I was feeling the best of my life.  But over the past month+ I've had some "turbulence".  There was the corn syrup thing of course, which was explainable because I ate corn syrup.  But me abruptly quitting a decent job and not understanding why I couldn't handle it, and the re-emergence of my depression has me stumped and discouraged.

This weekend has been rough.  It has left me seriously wishing I hadn't thrown out my anti-depressants.  The stress and pressure of my financial circumstances and the expectations from people around me to "get it together" and "just get a job" have left me stressed out, and then when I didn't have anything left in me to sustain the "stressed-out" state, I just slumped into depression, and have just felt like I need to get away from everything.  The worst was last night: I just wanted to crawl in a cave and die, but today has been a little better.  My financial situation is not worrying me as much now, since I talked with my bishop, and have gotten some assistance (this is the welfare that Melissa_J and I referred to in the "Chit-chat" thread).

This still doesn't alleviate the pressure to "just get a job".  Like a lot of nonnies, I am over-sensitive to many things, stress/pressure being the prime one for me.  Because of that, I've had many unpleasant, damaging experiences in the work world, experiences that I suspect most people (secretors) could just suck up and forget about.  [Add to that my NF Idealist personality--looks like I'm not the NT Rational I thought I was a bit ago--and most mundane jobs I can qualify for are a very poor fit for me.]  Anyway, I tend to freak out and run away when the pressure gets to be too much for me.  At this point, I don't know if I'm just conditioned to panic and run, or if I'm really cracking under pressure.  Not that it makes a big difference, since the result is the same.

In one way, I wish I could really start fresh, living at home, gradually easing my way out into the big bad world at my own pace, but I'm all grown up, and a bit too old for that now.

I shouldn't be surprised at what has happened.  Judging from experience, any big change I have ever made with the intent of getting better has helped me feel better for a short while.  Starting a new medication, seeing a new therapist, moving to a new place, or starting a new job have all consistently given me reprieve.  I am not surprised that BTD has done this also.  BUT, I am still convinced that it is helping me.  I'm not thinking about quitting, just lamenting that the dramatic improvement I saw at the beginning was just a honeymoon.  I have been abusing myself with bad food for many years now, and my health has been fragile since I was a child, so I should expect it to take a long time for me to heal.

But what in the meantime?  The reality is, I need to find a job and stick with it, even if there are aspects of it I hate.  How do you cope?  The job I quit so abruptly was an office job.  I worked in a cubicle all day, in front of a computer, processing paperwork.  I felt wasted there, like just another piece of machinery.  The people I worked with seemed to have no spirit--they seemed content to come there, day after day, toiling at these dull, repetitive, and meaningless tasks, as if that was everything they hoped for in life.  I couldn't relate to them.  I felt trapped, almost.  I lasted three weeks.  I hadn't planned on quitting that day, but I sort of snapped when my trainer came back to me with a stack of work I did wrong and needed to correct.  Finding another job had been on my to-do list for two weeks, and was rising in priority every day.  But despite all that, it did for me what a job is supposed to do: it paid me.  The work was meaningless to me personally, but it was necessary, and there was nothing dishonorable or immoral in it, so why couldn't I just bide my time?  Sometimes I'm such a puzzle even to myself. ??)

This whole stress thing is such a vicious cycle:
stress --> reduced capacity to alleviate source of stress --> more stress --> further reduced capacity --> even more stress --> collapse/breakdown/depression --> recovery --> stress...
Posted by: Victoria, Monday, December 10, 2007, 3:04am; Reply: 1
Hi there!  
I must admit that I can relate to many of the things you shared in your post.  That doesn't fix things for you, but at least know that you're not alone, and everything can improve.  It all takes time, and we get impatient.

Try and stick with the BTD to the very best of your ability.  Especially for us non-secretors, avoids can destroy not just our health, but also our mental and emotional well being.  Eat as high a percentage as possible of beneficials.

Another suggestion is to get some Bach Flower Remedy, the one called Wild Oat.  Get an empty 2 oz dropper bottle, fill it with filtered or spring water, and put in 3 or 4 drops of the Wild Oat remedy.  Squeeze it under your tongue or into your water bottle or glass.  Drink throughout the day.  It is a homeopathic remedy for helping us to see what our best direction is out of all the choices that are spinning around our heads.

Try and stay calm and realize that solutions will emerge.  Before you go to bed at night, think or write down a list of the things you would like to see happen, and how you would like your career life to look and feel, and what you would like to do.  Don't censor what you write.  This is just planting seeds of positive desires.  Try to stop focusing on what you have not been happy with.  Every night pull out your list, or bring it up on the computer and write about what you do want.  This is one way of clearing the air for yourself and finding out what you are really wanting.  Do this every day for a couple of weeks, or longer.  The practice will help you know yourself more.
Posted by: Whimsical, Monday, December 10, 2007, 3:04am; Reply: 2
Just a brief response:

You are young and have lots of time to figure out your job situation and life in general.  Yet, you seem to be putting a lot of pressure and stress onto yourself about this and I have to ask why...  What is the rush?  You are living life in each of these moments and it is all about the journey, not the destination...

I worked in my old job for 1.5 YEARS while I figured out what I wanted to do and worked towards doing it.  It was also a job in a cubicle working in a business that I thought was kind of pointless.  It was really hard to go to work sometimes, but, boy, was it fun when I finally got to quit and walk out that door with no regrets!  Your next job will likely not be your career, but it will be a stepping stone/landing place for you while you make your long-term plans.

You cannot choose what people around you do (or try to do to you), but ultimately you decide how you are going to feel about it.  Learn to exercise your power of choice.  This is not simple or easy, it takes practice (as does any new behaviour), but the more you do it, the easier it gets.  Watch "The Secret", find yourself a mentor or career counselor and set goals, decide how you want to feel every day and practice achieving that.
Posted by: TJ, Monday, December 10, 2007, 3:50am; Reply: 3
My concerns aren't as much with my long-term plans as with getting by in the here and now.  I am confident in my ability to get where I want to go, eventually.  I'm not in a great hurry to get there either, except that the sooner I get "there", the less of "here" I have to put up with.

The pressure and stress I refer to are coming at me from the little everyday demands of life, not from concerns about the future.  There have been many times when it was an effort to sit down and pay bills, wash dishes, laundry, etc., in other words, all the little things you have to do to manage life.  I'm not just talking about an hour or a day, but weeks feeling this way.  The future I can handle; it's the present that scares me to death.  I feel very ill-equipped to deal with the mundane necessities of life, but during that month or so of feeling great after starting BTD, it wasn't a problem at all!  I didn't have to work myself up to go out grocery shopping or fold clothes or reply to an email.  Thankfully, I'm not that low now, and I expect that I will be feeling better tomorrow, but it has hurt my self-confidence, not knowing how much I can realistically expect out of myself from one day to the next.

Obviously, I have always managed to get through, somehow.  But I'm getting so tired of just barely getting by, and of having to expend so much effort to just barely get by.  As time goes by, and I continue to comply with the BTD (or GTD, when I get a copy of it), I expect I will experience more consistent, longer-lived improvements.  Really, over all these years, the knowledge that things would eventually get better has carried me over the darkest times.  But in the meanwhile, I still have to cope with the present and all its tiresome realities, and do so in my current state of health, whatever it happens to by on a given day.
Posted by: Melissa_J, Monday, December 10, 2007, 3:56am; Reply: 4
Could you have Seasonal Affective Disorder?  The treatment is good for you whether or not you have it, so try getting more sunlight.  Get out in the sun in the morning and around noon, you can get some walking or other exercise in to keep you warm.  It may be too cold to show much skin, but no sunglasses or sunscreen, and at least let your face get some rays.  The flourescent lights in most offices drive me nuts, you didn't happen to have a window by you, I presume?  The worst job I ever had was office work in a basement office with no real sunlight...it didn't matter what I was doing I would have hated that job.  Well, there was one other job where the boss was this passive aggressive type...that was actually the worst job, but at least I had a window there!  

Some adaptogens are always nice, I'm not sure what the best ones are for Bs... maybe a B can inform us.  I really like Tulsi Tea, an herbal tea from holy basil.  The tulsi ginger flavor is really nice and warming (some of the flavors have green or black tea in them, so check on them, but Indian Organics Tulsi Ginger is caffeine-free)

Sometimes, this time of year, I can be walking through a store and just suddenly get the urge to melt into a puddle on the floor...it's like everything just gets sapped out of me.  It usually gets better for me on the 21st of December, when the daylength starts to turn around.
Posted by: Curious, Monday, December 10, 2007, 4:03am; Reply: 5
You might want to read the book "Making work work for the highly sensitive person": http://www.amazon.com/Making-Work-Highly-Sensitive-Person/dp/007140810X
Other good books are: http://www.hsperson.com/
Posted by: OSuzanna, Monday, December 10, 2007, 4:07am; Reply: 6
If you get more antidepressants, don't throw them out when you are feeling better, regardless of the reason you are feeling better, just put them away in case of emergency, like now. ..I'm no doctor, but I recognize much of what you're going thru per your first post of this thread. I've had to keep traditional meds on hand since I started BTDing and feeling better and better, but I've needed less and less of them. So far I've been BTDing about 1-3/4 years.
It doesn't happen all at once, and I do understand the panic-y frustration.
Best of luck getting your feet back under you so you can go back to looking for work - try temp agencies?
Gotta run, good luck, drive!

Hey, curious, I just saw your link, I'm gonna check it out, since I'm now between jobs myself.
Posted by: Lola, Monday, December 10, 2007, 7:11am; Reply: 7
drive,
something tells me you are extremely sensitive to avoids, and other allergens.
I would follow the allergies book closely for a while and adapt all the great advice you ve already been given.
Posted by: 521 (Guest), Monday, December 10, 2007, 7:53am; Reply: 8
Just tonight, I saw a book in the bookstore called "Careers for Nonconformists" or something like that.  It looked pretty good.

Also, you should probably go for training in something like career counseling or counseling psychology... they'll let you practice your idealism.  But don't do clinical; you wouldn't like it.  
Posted by: Amazone I., Monday, December 10, 2007, 10:15am; Reply: 9
drive 55 I feel you as a great teacher and counselor, but please not only paperwork...that kills us :P ;).....hmmm, may I recommend that you should augment your intake of aminoacids instead of those meds. ::) I am sure you will have success whithin days and hours and then my dear, please step away from those thoughts that you've to fulfill any expectations of others...that's just not true...but if ther's something like a little of narcistic pattern of *how do I shine to others*...so here it's the good time to loose it....

is that possible that in effect it isn't any depression but a thyroid problem??) :o ....So please go for kelp & l'tyrosine
and please try not to step into our trap of "I am and I have*
the I-concept doesn't work with us, it's just empty.... and should be  filled up with joy and love to yourself :K)
did you ever tried to work with Louise Hay's aphorismen??)....they work so well ;)
Please don't feel offended but I want really to sustain ya another hug from Switzerland, truly yours Isa(smile)
Posted by: 1879 (Guest), Monday, December 10, 2007, 1:12pm; Reply: 10
Quoted from TJ
This weekend has been rough.  It has left me seriously wishing I hadn't thrown out my anti-depressants.


So, let me get this straight: You were feeling better on BTD and stopped taking your anti-depressants on a whim without consulting a doctor?  :o If this is the case, then that's your problem. Never get rid of your meds without consulting a a psychiatrist. That's kind of like a diabetic saying, "Hmmm...I feel better on BTD today, so I'll just throw out my insulin!" Then they freak out when disaster ensues. Getting better is a gradual process. It won't happen overnight!

My blog is about my journey off of my medications. In the FAQ, I haven't gotten off of them yet, as it's only been 3 weeks, but I've never felt better:

Quoted Text

I still plan to take medication until I don't need it anymore, to go to my therapist for counseling, and to attend support groups whenever and wherever I can find them. This really complements what I am already doing. So, even if I "fail" and am unable to get off of medications, I still "win" because I will have a better quality of life.


I know that it's hard to be on psych meds. They're expensive and the stigma for taking them is high. But, if that's what you need right now, then that's what you need. Go back to your doctor, admit what you did, and get some new meds. Then, continue healing on BTD. After a while, when it's evident your dosage is too high because of the side effects you're experiencing, then talk about reducing the dosage. In the meantime, keep a journal on the moods you're feeling and the side effects you're experiencing. A blog is great for doing that in my opinion, as the desire to attract an audience keeps me accountable. Good luck with everything, and keep me posted.  
Posted by: jeanb, Monday, December 10, 2007, 1:16pm; Reply: 11
I'm with Isa on this one. Please read The Mood Cure and then start taking the aminio acids the book advocates asap.  

Then I am going to sound mean, but I am the COO of a company and I hire people frequently, but then I also fire frequently.  I had to chuckle when I saw you thought your previous job(s) were boring.  Yah, my job is boring too, I have had my share since I was 16, but I always have gone to a job with these thoughts in mind:

1.  I am going to do my job with a smile on my face and learn from it no matter how bad it is.
2.  I am going to do my job quickly with ABSOLUTELY NO MISTAKES.
3.  I am not going to miss a day of work.
4.  I am not going to complain about my work as there are possibly billions of people on earth with no work or truly soul shattering work. (I just have to remember some of the jobs my parents and grandparents performed when they first came to Canada)
5.  I will learn everything I can about my job so I will be promoted.
6.  I will never say no when I am given a new task to learn.


This attitude has always served me well.  Even though I have a 2 year diploma in design, I have risen to the top job in almost every place I have ever worked.  Within 2 months I will be the CEO of the factory in which I presently work. Last week, when we had a horrible virus run through the factory, I was the one who ended up cleaning the lunchroom and shop sinks, and I did it with a smile on my face as it was a change of pace from dealing with HR issues and customers. The men in the factory were surprised, but I did learn the factory needed shop sinks with knee controls rather than hand ones.


I come from the apparel industry and I can't even to tell you how many times I have sat on a production line making the same thing over and over (best day ever was 1500 cuffs!!!)or cleaning thousands of garments, or packing boxes on Christmas Eve for Boxing Day Sales.

I have found over the past 2 years of working in this particular factory, young men 16-35 have incredible resiliance issues. They cannot deal with the little stresses of everyday life and they don't like to do mundane tasks.  

Having to learn new skills seems to be degrading.  I have also seen these young men seem to hate doing 100% quality jobs.  They don't care if they make mistakes and need to redo product. They lack the ability to concentrate and don't listen to supervisors.  

I see it in my own sons as they refuse to do rewrites on written work for school and don't seem to care if their quality is OK or not.  I can't tell you how many times they have had to rewash dishes when they weren't cleaned properly.

Yes, I know I sound like a cranky mother/boss type, but sometimes an attitude readjustment is required.  No job is forever, but perhaps you must remember every job is a teacher for your next job.  



Posted by: NewHampshireGirl, Monday, December 10, 2007, 2:51pm; Reply: 12
Bravo, Jean, very well spoken how to conduct oneself in every job.  It's the attitude I have followed all my life and it has served me well.

Everyone's advice on this thread is valuable.  The amino acids therapy has certainly caught my interest.  Not that I need it myself but I like to keep up on the whole subject of nutrition.
Posted by: 1750 (Guest), Monday, December 10, 2007, 3:56pm; Reply: 13
Drive55,
I just want you to know that I hear ya and feel ya man.  I am not going to through advice out at ya because you know what to do already.  That doesn't make the actual doing any easier, especially when you are in the midst of a depressive episode. When I go to that dark place of depression there is nothing that will make me feel better really except time.  

Please know that there are others suffering just as you are and that the holiday season tends to add to the pressure and anxiety.  The winter weather for those of us that experience it is also another factor that weighs us down. A great deal of this is 'hard-coded' in us and many times this coding leads to us making decisions that have poor results. Melville understood out plight well.  Take the time to read a short story called Bartlebyby Melville.   You can find it online here.http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=MelBart.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=1&division=div1.

I read this story often, especially when work gets me down.


When you are out of the funk send me a message and we can talk about opportunities and choices. Right now weather the storm.
Posted by: Lola, Monday, December 10, 2007, 5:30pm; Reply: 14
how about this! ;D
http://www.tyrantbook.com/

the other side of the spectrum!
Posted by: Amazone I., Monday, December 10, 2007, 5:36pm; Reply: 15
geekchic 9  may I ask you to read the *wisdom of the enneagram* of Don Richard Riso and then you see, that your guess might have been right when saying ENTJ...but what happens when 1/2 goes backwards....the desintegrative way, here  he/she goes to No 4 and that's infp/j.....often confounded with isfj/p which is a complete different type ;).....but ENTP has a part of no 9 in its pattern :D .......
much much easier all, as we think if you know how and what will happen....if ;) .....(smarty)(pray)(think)(whistle)(happy_gangsta)
but the easiest for you might be, scroll in my pidgining-archive and read about it...I made a workout of seven different blogs about that thema  ;D ;D ;D


Jean....all your mentioned phrases sounded soooo familiar to me ;) ;D ;D (clap)(dance)(smarty)(sunny) :K)
Posted by: TJ, Monday, December 10, 2007, 6:53pm; Reply: 16
As I expected, I was feeling better when I awoke today.  Just writing everything down last night was a help, too.  After my second post I went to bed, already feeling a little bit better.

Melissa_J: I doubt it's SAD I'm dealing with.  I have struggled with this boogeyman through all seasons.  But a gloomy overcast day does take a toll on my mood.  Fortunately, it's 70 degrees and sunny here today!  I did go out for a walk, and it was pleasant, but I can't bear to part with my sunglasses (kewl).  I have never been by a window in an office job.  Florescent lights don't really bother me; I like them better than incandescents, because the light is whiter...unless they are flickering, which drives me batty.

Curious, Ron, jeanb, Tomatilla: Considering my financial circumstances, any solutions I try are going to be low- to no-cost ones.  Hopefully I can find some cheap used copies of the books recommended on the internet, or better still, for free in the library.  Those "highly sensitive people" books sound like a winner to me.

OSuzanna: Getting more antidepressants right now isn't realistic.  My most recent psychiatrist is in Raleigh, and costs $90 for 30 minutes.  I can't afford the fee or the drive, and I'm just gonna do without for now.  This was the first time I ever threw away my old meds--I had quite a pharmacy on-hand, but I will not make that mistake again.

Lola: I agree that I probably am very sensitive to avoids, especially corn.  I have been 99% compliant.  Unfortunately, the walnuts I've been eating have a bit of corn oil in them!  But it's such a small amount, I can't even taste or feel the oil on them.  And it turns out, my vitamin C's and multivitamins have a small amount of corn starch in them.  I hate to throw them out over such a little bit of avoid.

Ron: Ever since my senior research project, I knew I didn't want to do clinical.  The thought of reading scholarly journals and tabulating statistics all day makes me cringe.  No, I definitely want to work with individuals, helping them to get better in some way.  My trouble is, can I find such a job right now?  I'm not counting on it, just looking forward to that kind of work once I have more education and credentials.

Tomatilla: I have long since been purged of the "how do I shine for others" and "I am what I have" vanities.  But independence and self-sufficiency are important value to me.  I hate feeling so reliant on the aid of others just to make basic needs.  It's true that we all need other people, but I don't think it's too much to expect that I should be financially independent, especially considering how simply I live.

geekchic: The stigma of antidepressants is not as big a deal as the cost.  I admit, I was in quite a celebratory mood when I tossed them out, because it feels great to believe that you don't need that crutch anymore!  I will just call this another "learning experience".

jeanb: The boredom is only part of it.  I really can't put my finger on what happened, or on what happens, that makes me freak out and run screaming for the door.  Those are admirable goals to set, but not quite realistic for me.  I know, because I've set similar ones for myself, and pushed myself so hard in trying to achieve them that I crashed.  The first crash I ever had, I was working in the campus bookstore.  I actually had a good time there.  I enjoyed the people I worked with, and the dullness of the work didn't bother me.  While working there, I was also determined to get into shape.  I was going to the gym almost every day after work to lift weights or jog (indoor track).  Mysteriously, I began developing a persistent fatigue, and I backed off in my workout routine, and eventually quit altogether, but it kept getting worse, until I didn't even have the energy to stand for more than a few minutes at a time.  I physically became incapable of performing my job's function, and had to quit.  I spent a few months at home, sleeping a great deal (this was over the summer), and when the fall semester started up, I forced myself to get up and go back to school, even though it was very difficult and I didn't feel fully recovered by then.  Frankly, I never have fully recovered, until the brief good stint I had shortly after starting BTD.  I have repeated this experience a couple of times, so that now, I am no longer willing to push myself so hard.  I'd rather quit while I'm well than wait until I'm incapable of going on.  With some of my past crashes, I suspect physical exertion was the culprit; with others (the more recent ones) it was due to less tangible stressors.

Mekan: Truly, time is the best cure for these episodes.  Sometimes, nothing I try seems to speed up the process of getting back up from one.  It just takes time.

Lola: :o  "How to be a Successful Tyrant"?  You know we NFs have very little desire for managing others...but I'm sure the ES_Js around here would find it fascinating! ;)
Posted by: SquarePeg, Monday, December 10, 2007, 6:59pm; Reply: 17
I identify with you, drive55.  It's almost as if you read my mind when you wrote that post, except I haven't actually quit my job.  I think many people just don't understand how hard it can be just to get ready to leave the house on some days.

I read some great suggestions in this thread.  That "Making Work Work for the Highly Sensitive Person" sounds interesting.  I already did watch "The Secret," and I'm starting to meditate again.

Most helpful was when I asked my ND for help.  He suggested that I take Pure Encapsulations' "Emotional Wellness Formula."  This has taken away a lot of the anxiety I'd feel on workday mornings.  And I've stopped obsessing about all the life pressures and what-ifs, which nearly incapacitated me.

Good luck.  Take it one day at a time, one moment at a time.
Posted by: Lola, Monday, December 10, 2007, 7:02pm; Reply: 18
;D
did you read this part?
http://www.theft-by-deception.com/

I like this guy.......he thinks outside the box!
Posted by: TJ, Monday, December 10, 2007, 8:00pm; Reply: 19
Lola, I read "Bartleby", but I don't get it.  Does it really end with "The great point was, not whether I had assumed that he would quit me, but whether he would prefer so to do. He was more a man of preferences than assumptions."?  Or is there another page?  I'm also confused by that "Theft by Deception": is that for real?  Even if it is, the IRS is a de facto law unto itself....
Posted by: 1750 (Guest), Monday, December 10, 2007, 8:07pm; Reply: 20
I am glad that you are feeling better today.  I hate being in that dark place.  It is as if I am having an out-of-body experience.  Part of me asks why I am making irrational statements and assumptions and at the same time feeling the anxiety and deep hurt that depression brings.  Do give Bartleby a read though, it is our problem.

At times it is almost as if I am not happy unless there is drama.  Things can go extremely well at work for a long period of time and then suddenly I have a big issue.  I don't know why it happens or why I react that way.  My mother never seemed happy unless she was dealing with a crisis that 'only' she could handle.  I fear that may be me too.

Now, being a fellow B-nonnie I will tell you what I do that helps me.

I try not to think so much.  If there is one thing that seems to be common to B's is a great deal of introspection.  Introspection and idealism can lead to an inability to act, to make change.  It may sound trite, but I do my best not to perseverate on my introspection.  I work very hard at being and living in the moment, not the future or the past.  I meditate.

Accept yourself for who and what you are.  It is hard to make  changes when you are beating yourself up.  Don't ignore what you need to change, but forgive yourself so that you can change.  You will always come up short of your expectations.  I have said before that I see myself as a knight, as Lancelot.  It is a point of pride that I have great empathy and forgiveness of other's faults.  It is a great weakness not to have empathy and forgiveness for my own.

Separate your person from your work.  Far too long I equated my worth with what I did and how much I earned.  I would measure myself against other men.  It is important that my work is simply a means to earning income.  I am simply too sensitive and idealistic to treat work as anything else.  There is just too many compromises and too much that is not in my control at work.  Jeanb's 6 rules are pretty accurate.

No job will be a perfect fit for me.  Frankly I am too complex to satisfy, a high-maintenance type of guy.  So I made a decision to limit the stress of work and focus on time outside of work to value.  My job now pays me less than half of what I had been earning previously but doubles my off time.  I can leave work at work.

Exercise
Do things that are fascinating. Don't simply walk a treadmill.    Mow the lawn for a lady down the street or detail your mom's car.  Live.  Again, treadmill walking gives me too much time with my own thoughts.  I try to do things that help me think about the activity at hand or the people involved in the activity.

Finally,  I realize that we all have our own beliefs but spend time with your Maker.

Posted by: Amazone I., Monday, December 10, 2007, 8:10pm; Reply: 21
omG Lola...what a laughter ::) (clap)(clap)(dance)(smarty)(sunny)(woot)(woot)(funny)(funny)but he's an i...not an E....the number 8 in Risos' might be enpicture those situations, as well no.6 but here onto the desintegrative way coz of ambivalence ::) :X.....well did I say ambivalence ...huh ??) (clown) :B

even no:2 might get such traits when going to no 8......(grin)(evil)....

Mekan, great, great staement feel :K) ;) ;D :D.....but remember an infj resembles to an extravert (Briggs-Myers expression about infj's in the book *gifts differing* but might be overwhelmed also by their capacities of selfobservation and insights  :D...this is meant positively!!! Then NF's especially the i's just are the dramaqueens and kings, they need to celebrate their research for their *selfs* and then also creating situations which ends in drama  :-/ :o ;)...why...coz they try
selfreduction by fixing themselves until :P.....and then blaming themselves for anything and nothing...hmmmm this is the act for forgivenes, yep here you are more then right :D....
infj means in Riso's enneagram, 4/5...the 5 is NT.....so no wonder that you search for independency as well :D
I only can ask you to think with your bellies and not to much with your brains ;)...ahem yessss you both; if you act likewise, mostly of the time you just *see* right.....you are the prévoyants... so use you mostly favest side and go for it (clap)(dance)(smarty)(sunny)
Posted by: TJ, Monday, December 10, 2007, 8:50pm; Reply: 22
Quoted from 1750
Do give Bartleby a read though, it is our problem.


I did.  I just don't get it.  Who is this Bartleby, and how is he relevant?  I am truly lost on this one ??).

Quoted from 1750
Now, being a fellow B-nonnie I will tell you what I do that helps me.

I try not to think so much.  If there is one thing that seems to be common to B's is a great deal of introspection.  Introspection and idealism can lead to an inability to act, to make change.  It may sound trite, but I do my best not to perseverate on my introspection.  I work very hard at being and living in the moment, not the future or the past.  


I am also bad about this, and I recognize it, but sometimes, when I should be just "putting one foot in front of the other", I need to know which direction I should be facing first!

Quoted from 1750
I meditate.


I see this thrown around a lot.  What does it really mean?

Quoted from 1750
Separate your person from your work....

No job will be a perfect fit for me.  Frankly I am too complex to satisfy, a high-maintenance type of guy.  So I made a decision to limit the stress of work and focus on time outside of work to value.  My job now pays me less than half of what I had been earning previously but doubles my off time.  I can leave work at work.


I agree.  Work is the means to obtain money, and money is the means to do things you need and want to do in life: money is a tool, no more.  I will probably be looking hard at part-time work, because the 40 hr week grind is a bit much for me to bear over the long haul.  25-30 hrs/week would be ideal.

Quoted from 1750
Exercise
Do things that are fascinating. Don't simply walk a treadmill.    Mow the lawn for a lady down the street or detail your mom's car.  Live.  Again, treadmill walking gives me too much time with my own thoughts.  I try to do things that help me think about the activity at hand or the people involved in the activity.


I despise treadmills.  I walk outdoors, even if it's 20 degrees F outside.  If I need to go for a walk, I bundle up and go.  I do a lot of thinking while I walk, but usually it's positive and clarifying (unless I'm already in a bad funk).  But I could still do better at the "interesting" aspect of this.

Quoted from 1750
Finally,  I realize that we all have our own beliefs but spend time with your Maker.


I do, and this is probably why I'm still alive after all these years!
Posted by: Amazone I., Monday, December 10, 2007, 9:40pm; Reply: 23
I am going to repeat myselve :D....read the enneagram and then
you know what is really meant ;) (angel)
Posted by: SquarePeg, Monday, December 10, 2007, 10:13pm; Reply: 24
Quoted from 1750
-snip-At times it is almost as if I am not happy unless there is drama.  Things can go extremely well at work for a long period of time and then suddenly I have a big issue.  I don't know why it happens or why I react that way.  My mother never seemed happy unless she was dealing with a crisis that 'only' she could handle.  I fear that may be me too.
Isn't this indicative of a sluggish adrenal gland?  Or I could be confusing this with the habit of putting off things until the last minute, which leads to a panic-stricken effort (with the accompanying rush of adrenaline) to do the thing.

Posted by: SquarePeg, Monday, December 10, 2007, 10:24pm; Reply: 25
Quoted from TJ
-snip-OSuzanna: Getting more antidepressants right now isn't realistic.  My most recent psychiatrist is in Raleigh, and costs $90 for 30 minutes.  I can't afford the fee or the drive, and I'm just gonna do without for now.  This was the first time I ever threw away my old meds--I had quite a pharmacy on-hand, but I will not make that mistake again.
You can simply call and ask for a refill.  No need for an office visit.  Of course, you'll have to pay for the meds....

Posted by: TJ, Monday, December 10, 2007, 11:38pm; Reply: 26
Quoted from Amazone I.
may I recommend that you should augment your intake of aminoacids instead of those meds. ::) I am sure you will have success whithin days and hours....


What do you suggest here?  Is there a certain kind of amino acid or blend I should take?

Quoted from Amazone I.
is that possible that in effect it isn't any depression but a thyroid problem??


Years ago when I first went through the big crash I talked about, my Dr. first suspected mononucleosis.  It wasn't, so next I had a full blood panel done.  My thyroid was fine, and everything else was within normal range too.
Posted by: 1750 (Guest), Tuesday, December 11, 2007, 12:04am; Reply: 27
Bartleby (The Scrivener)
A scrivener is a person that makes copies, before typwriters, carbon paper, and of course copy machines.  Bartleby was quite good at what he did but the work and working environment pushed Bartleby to tuning out and shutting down.  Melville is placed in a group of writers collectively known as the transcendentalists.   This group of writers focused on the depersonalization of society as it moved through the 'great awakening' of industrial society at the turn of 19th century.

There are times that I feel the futility of doing in the workplace and at times feel like Bartleby just staring at a wall.  I have neither the will to do or to change my situation.  This is why I thought that the Bartleby story might help you in your work issues.

Meditation
I am not an expert here, but I routinely perform two types of meditation, focused and non-focused.  Focused meditation is is concentrating on something and thinkingabout its meaning.  Art, clouds, my breathing, a Bible passage are great for this type of meditation.  I focus on whatever the object is and exclude all other thoughts.  It is difficult for me to do even today.  Non-focused meditation is completely empty my thoughts for a period of time.  This is ever so much harder than focused meditation for me.
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, December 11, 2007, 12:53am; Reply: 28
Quoted from 1750
Bartleby was quite good at what he did but the work and working environment pushed Bartleby to tuning out and shutting down....

There are times that I feel the futility of doing in the workplace and at times feel like Bartleby just staring at a wall.  I have neither the will to do or to change my situation.  This is why I thought that the Bartleby story might help you in your work issues.


Lol, I was so busy empathizing with the narrator's attempt to understand Bartleby that I didn't pick up on all that!  I certainly relate to the bolded segment above.

Wikipedia has an entry on meditation I skimmed over.  The mention of "walking meditation" interested me, but it gave no detailed information on this.  However, I did find this:

http://www.wildmind.org/walking/introduction

I believe I have been doing so form of meditation on my own for a long time now, but irregularly.  Self-awareness has always been important to me.  I am continually amazed at how easily people can get roped in by catchy advertising, but I am somehow unaffected by most of it (unless it's annoying, but that's not the kind of effect the advertiser is going for).  Therapy helped me understand the idea of "mindfulness", and why it is important: the whole idea of stepping back and examining the thoughts you are thinking, and challenging them if they are negative.  That was a good practice for me that I need to get back into doing habitually.  I've never before considered setting aside time for meditation, but I think it will be a good thing to do, especially when I'm feeling spread too thinly, it will help me reel myself back in.  ;D
Posted by: honeybee, Tuesday, December 11, 2007, 2:46am; Reply: 29
Hi Drive, Dr D says we are the emotional bunch in LR4YT I think! (hugegrin)

He also suggests that important creativity aspect for B..


(edited for minimalism)
Posted by: Lola, Tuesday, December 11, 2007, 2:49am; Reply: 30
Quoted Text
"Theft by Deception": is that for real?  Even if it is, the IRS is a de facto law unto itself....

yes, this guy has his own theory and defends it no matter what!

he was even sent to jail, and all.
He s a real 'gladiator' of our age! ;)
Posted by: Lola, Tuesday, December 11, 2007, 4:32am; Reply: 31
don t forget the power of visualization in Bs!
Blood Type B Basics: The Blood Type B Individualized Lifestyle.
http://www.4yourtype.com/Typeb_basic.asp
...............................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euXPJuoBIMY
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, December 11, 2007, 4:55am; Reply: 32
So Lola, what say you on the "contaminated" walnuts and vitamins, should I throw them out, or do you think that little bit of corn is tolerable?

Also, I still haven't completely cut out refined sugars.  I don't put them on the same level of "avoid-ness" as corn, wheat, and chicken, but I am trying to use honey and molasses more and white/brown sugar less.
Posted by: yaeli, Tuesday, December 11, 2007, 5:44am; Reply: 33
I would suggest go cold turkey.  :) To be unequivocal will support you a lot! It is bound to elevate your mood. You'll feel very clean and light. Close your eyes and do it!
Posted by: Lola, Tuesday, December 11, 2007, 5:52am; Reply: 34
given your nonnie status and susceptibility to avoids I d hand those over to a friend! ;)
find avoid free substitutes eventually.
Posted by: 521 (Guest), Tuesday, December 11, 2007, 9:27am; Reply: 35
drive,

Allow me to suggest some books that have helped me a lot over the years.  I think you might get something good out of them:

1) "The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem" by Nathaniel Branden
2) "Narcissism: Denial of the True Self" by Alexander Lowen
3) "Running on Emptiness: The Pathology of Civilization" by John Zerzan
4) "Resilience" by Frederic Flach
5) "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand
6) "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend

Finally, maybe this video clip might do something for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq9udFmsNO0&feature=related

Anyhow, that's my dead mouse on your doorstep... It's the best I have to give.  Meow.
Posted by: Amazone I., Tuesday, December 11, 2007, 9:41am; Reply: 36
4/5 has a big part of NT in them, they are the natural problem solvers' and just adore to do that with loads of intuition ).....but that might lead to biiig errors ::) coz of lacks of knowledge......(think)(whistle)
that the issue might be harder to get solved :o ;)  :K)
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, December 11, 2007, 6:12pm; Reply: 37
Quoted from Amazone I.
4/5 has a big part of NT in them, they are the natural problem solvers' and just adore to do that with loads of intuition ).....but that might lead to biiig errors ::) coz of lacks of knowledge......(think)(whistle)
that the issue might be harder to get solved :o ;)  :K)


Tomatilla, I'm at a loss regarding your post, are you still conversing with geekchic9 about the enneagram, or are you recommending it to me?  I'm sure I don't need yet another personality-classification system ATM, I have the Keirsey Temperaments/Meyers-Briggs Types, and I also use Glenn Foster's 4-type system.

[...which I highly recommend to anyone interested in personality.  His system defines personality based on response to rejection.  The book is called "How Can I Get Through To You?", and his four types are actually of more practical value to me than any other system I've read about, and he's not even a psychologist, but a police interrogator!  But his co-author is a psychologist. :)]
Posted by: Amazone I., Tuesday, December 11, 2007, 6:29pm; Reply: 38
Mekan is the infj ;)  :D
Posted by: OSuzanna, Wednesday, December 12, 2007, 10:42pm; Reply: 39
Quoted from Victoria
Try and stick with the BTD to the very best of your ability.  Especially for us non-secretors, avoids can destroy not just our health, but also our mental and emotional well being.  Eat as high a percentage as possible of beneficials.

Another suggestion is to get some Bach Flower Remedy, the one called Wild Oat.  Get an empty 2 oz dropper bottle, fill it with filtered or spring water, and put in 3 or 4 drops of the Wild Oat remedy.  Squeeze it under your tongue or into your water bottle or glass.  Drink throughout the day.  It is a homeopathic remedy for helping us to see what our best direction is out of all the choices that are spinning around our heads.

Try and stay calm and realize that solutions will emerge.  Before you go to bed at night, think or write down a list of the things you would like to see happen, and how you would like your career life to look and feel, and what you would like to do.  Don't censor what you write.  This is just planting seeds of positive desires.  Try to stop focusing on what you have not been happy with.  Every night pull out your list, or bring it up on the computer and write about what you do want.  This is one way of clearing the air for yourself and finding out what you are really wanting.  Do this every day for a couple of weeks, or longer.  The practice will help you know yourself more.


Thank you for the reminder... :K)

Posted by: OSuzanna, Wednesday, December 12, 2007, 10:46pm; Reply: 40
Quoted from 521
Allow me to suggest some books that have helped me a lot over the years.  I think you might get something good out of them:

1) "The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem" by Nathaniel Branden
2) "Narcissism: Denial of the True Self" by Alexander Lowen
3) "Running on Emptiness: The Pathology of Civilization" by John Zerzan
4) "Resilience" by Frederic Flach
5) "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand
6) "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend

Finally, maybe this video clip might do something for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq9udFmsNO0&feature=related

Anyhow, that's my dead mouse on your doorstep... It's the best I have to give.  Meow.


looks like I'm gonna be warming a seat at one of the bookstores soon... ;)
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, December 13, 2007, 1:27am; Reply: 41
Ron, about the video clip.....
It s amazing just how slim and fit everyone looks!!
I believe this was around the time Kellogg's began!!
and then came everything else......
look at our society now!
obesity has won over! :'(
Posted by: 521 (Guest), Thursday, December 13, 2007, 3:26am; Reply: 42
Lola,

Yep.  Bad ideas ruin everything.
Posted by: 1879 (Guest), Thursday, December 13, 2007, 4:45am; Reply: 43
Quoted from Amazone I.
geekchic 9  may I ask you to read the *wisdom of the enneagram* of Don Richard Riso and then you see, that your guess might have been right when saying ENTJ...but what happens when 1/2 goes backwards....the desintegrative way, here  he/she goes to No 4 and that's infp/j.....often confounded with isfj/p which is a complete different type ;).....but ENTP has a part of no 9 in its pattern :D .......
much much easier all, as we think if you know how and what will happen....if ;) .....(smarty)(pray)(think)(whistle)(happy_gangsta)
but the easiest for you might be, scroll in my pidgining-archive and read about it...I made a workout of seven different blogs about that thema  ;D ;D ;D


I'm not sure which one of my posts you are referring to -- or are you discussing my blog? I actually do own Wisdom of the Enneagram -- it's my fave of the two enneagram books I own -- do you have any page numbers I can refer to in the book?
Posted by: TJ, Thursday, December 13, 2007, 6:07am; Reply: 44
I am reading little bits at a time of "How To Make Work Work For The HSP", and this lady is right on.  On top of the book, a lot of my own thoughts and experiences have been coming together to give me an idea of what I need to do.  It is clear that I am not cut out for the 40-hr week, 8-to-5 grind, because I thrive in less structured environments and I crash and burn whenever I try to make myself work in one.

I recognize another error I have fallen into.  When I first started taking anti-depressants, I had the idea that I was going to be getting this "miracle pill" that would make everything normal.  The first one didn't work like that.  Neither did any of the others I tried.  I realized that I was just going to accept that there was no miracle pill, and that I shouldn't expect more than incremental improvements, and that I should be glad for them.  I wasn't totally acclimated to that idea yet, but I was digesting it at least.  Then came BTD, and with it, big big BIG improvements fairly quickly!  This sort of resurrected the old "miracle pill" mentality, which I applied to BTD.

Now I recognize, BTD is a good way to improve on myself, but it isn't going to make everything all right.  I'm never going to be able to deal with the typical kind of life and work that most people do, but that's ok, because I will find my own way to do things.  Now that I've accepted that idea, I think I can begin seeing real improvement and personal growth!
Posted by: Novelia, Thursday, December 13, 2007, 6:13am; Reply: 45
That's super, drive55! You have inspired me to read the HSP books again. :)
Posted by: Curious, Thursday, December 13, 2007, 7:52am; Reply: 46
That is great drive55! The HSP books were an eye-opener for me as well  8).
Posted by: 1879 (Guest), Thursday, December 13, 2007, 1:02pm; Reply: 47
Quoted from Amazone I.
I am going to repeat myselve :D....read the enneagram and then
you know what is really meant ;) (angel)


I have already read the book, like I have previously said. WotE makes no mention of Myers-Briggs types, so your idea of 1/2 of my MBTI type splitting and disintegrating really doesn't make sense to me. Under stress, it would be the entire type going to its opposite: ISFP. But I didn't read that from a web site. I read that from a site called http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk.

I know I am not a P of any sort, because I need structure. I prefer it. A lack of structure makes me anxious.

But, no matter. I am beginning to think I am not really an ENTJ, but an ISTJ or an ESTJ -- at least at the moment. I'm a particularly open-minded S, as I realize new ideas are great since they eventually will have practical applications. However, I am not in love with ideas for ideas' sake. The E vs. I is more debatable, though. I feel like I'm an ambivert.
Posted by: OSuzanna, Thursday, December 13, 2007, 3:03pm; Reply: 48
Quoted from 1879


I feel like I'm an ambivert.


Sounds like something I used to have. I fed it crickets. ;D

The snow is on its way, I'm going to the bookstore to get an HSP book.
Posted by: Amazone I., Thursday, December 13, 2007, 6:35pm; Reply: 49
drive55 I am sorry I've had lost your question about the amino's :B...sorry I am going to give a try right now:

as antidepressants are known: or phenylalanine & l'arginine, would go for 4x500 mg's, & inositol (anxietyreleaser). If that
won't work, you might go for sam-e.....4x200mg's daily, or
a form of aminoacids combination, there are some prepared from AB or puritan's pride as well, not expensive at all, they just offer some 70% ( I've just got the catalogue yesterday),
and of course one of the quickest is a plantbased product called 5 HTP.....this works greatly too :-)what helps and is connectable with almost all natural and also chemical products is the famous Enada NADH, (it's also mentioned in the nerve health protocol!)(also the fatigue fighting protocol should be ok for you )
siberian ginseng is one of the finest as well ;)and of course add some more magnesium, calms down a bit :-)
Dr. M.Murray recommends also all the B-vits in higher amounts,
he gives similar advices but added also to 5HTP and as well the l'tyrosine + - eventually also GABA, but not that necessary....as the others. L'tyrosine is very important to get sluggish thyroides ok & kelp with an amount of iodine in,
often depressions are confounded with sluggish thyroide....and false meds. are given instead!!!
I observed that not only once in my own praxis, when I see the
results of my Vegatestings :-/....and yep at the end vit. C up from 3-4x daily 250 mg's also some fatty acids. I wouldn't recommend any kava-kava.....that's a bit a livershocker for some people and won't do the trick at all....but here I am guessing :B......
hope it helps a bit, wish you all the best a very quick recovery time, feel huged from Switzerland :-)
Posted by: TJ, Thursday, December 13, 2007, 11:39pm; Reply: 50
Quoted from 1879
But, no matter. I am beginning to think I am not really an ENTJ, but an ISTJ or an ESTJ -- at least at the moment. I'm a particularly open-minded S, as I realize new ideas are great since they eventually will have practical applications. However, I am not in love with ideas for ideas' sake. The E vs. I is more debatable, though.


Funny, the only axis I'm 100% sure of is that I'm an N.  Next, I'd say I'm strongly leaning toward P over J, what with excessive structure causing anxiety for me.  But then, N's express P/J a little differently than S's.  I have bounced back and forth between F and T from first learning about this system.  Currently I'm favoring F, but two months ago I was favoring T.  I think I'm an F with an unusually well-developed T function.  I and E are roughly the same story as F and T: I enjoy "extroverting", and sometimes it does charge me up, but more often it's draining.  What can I say, it's an imperfect system at best.  Throw in my HSP and nonnie status, and that just whacks out everything!

Isa, thanks for that info on supplements.  I am already doing part of what you suggest.  1x500mg l-arginine, 1x648mg Siberian ginseng, and 1-2x250mg magnesium per day (among others).  I think in light of this recent experience that the most important thing for me is stress management.  I am very sensitive to stress and anxiety, and when I'm over my threshold it wears me down very quickly.  I've got to learn to recognize when my stress starts building, and make a conscious effort to stop that  process before it gets out of hand.
Posted by: 1879 (Guest), Friday, December 14, 2007, 12:55am; Reply: 51
Quoted from OSuzanna

Sounds like something I used to have. I fed it crickets. ;D


:) :P

OK, I met an ESTJ at work today, and I am not really much of an extrovert at all. ISTJ it is.
Posted by: jayneeo, Friday, December 14, 2007, 12:57am; Reply: 52
Isa, I wonder what Riso makes of the ENFP? #2....#7?    9? :o
Posted by: 1879 (Guest), Friday, December 14, 2007, 1:03am; Reply: 53
Quoted from jayneeo
Isa, I wonder what Riso makes of the ENFP? #2....#7?    9? :o


You might find this link interesting.
Posted by: Amazone I., Friday, December 14, 2007, 7:47am; Reply: 54
geekchic, thanx for sharing will have a bigger look into that :D


yesss it depends what is our real groundtype (better said our prefered approach to deal with the world) I observed that when ENFP/J goes to its desintegrative way it goes to 5 and becomes very dangerous for him/her and the rest of the world:-/
but then please remember that WE ARE the WHOLe enneagram...we do have patterns from all types but do have one prefered type & and
edge from a neighour ; ;D.......
the enneagram shows us quickest up what might happen when (if)....... I'd recommend for all interested the book *giftsdiffering* from Briggs Myers, here she explains what might happen when types are not that well developed and how it works and how it can be realized.....
I will do an example: 8(ENFP/J) goes to 2 (ESFP/J)...goes to 4 infp/j....goes to 1 ENTP/J......goes to 7 ESTP/J....goes to 5
intp/j....arrives at last to its hometown ;) the 8 ENFP/J
but this might be working over years and then you are able to play that game instantly......
the inverse way normally stops when not that heavy in its first meeting and tries to get regulated by itself....if that isn't possible.....we have to cope with the adequate medications ::).....
The exception her are the triangle 3-6-9....it only goes 9-6
might also have traits of the 3 in its negativest forms....but here the way of integration is (seems) much shorter but is muchmore heavier coz it comes likewise a hammer.....I saw this on my ex-boyfriend when he merged into another direction, mostly of the time he was forced to lay down coz of heaviest
panicattacs & mental trouble (about an hour or two......)
Posted by: jayneeo, Friday, December 14, 2007, 5:59pm; Reply: 55
thanks, geekchik and Isa......the link of the Riso info shows ENFP as either 2 or 7, as I guessed, while the 8 is not an F but a T..... :)
enneagram is one of my obsessions, but barely know the MB....
Posted by: Amazone I., Friday, December 14, 2007, 7:59pm; Reply: 56
jayneeo :D...wew....Riso's enneagram is one of my passions as well ;D (woot)(woot)(woot)(dance)it is amazing when we can observe how and where someones just  jumps into..... :o :o(hehe)(happy)
Posted by: 1879 (Guest), Saturday, December 15, 2007, 12:00am; Reply: 57
It's so interesting that people here are interested in MBTI and the Enneagram. When I mention it to people I know, they're usually like  ??). Isa, I get that you are explaining the rule of 7 and the rule of 3 when it comes to disintegration...but I don't follow the corresponding pattern shift in the MBTI types. I'm going to check out Gifts Differing from my library and figure it out. Thanks for the reference.
Posted by: 521 (Guest), Saturday, December 15, 2007, 1:24am; Reply: 58
I think the people who gravitate towards the BTD and the MBTI are basically people who are smart enough to realize the importance of discovering the patterns and order, from within seeming chaos.
Posted by: OSuzanna, Saturday, December 15, 2007, 2:57am; Reply: 59
Quoted from 521
... discovering the patterns and order, from within seeming chaos.


Isn't that a Taoist saying, something about starting from chaos and ending in creativity/order or something...?
Posted by: Amazone I., Saturday, December 15, 2007, 12:14pm; Reply: 60
the body-mind-soul-connection IS harmony in itself ;) when chaos is created from outwards, so this system is able to re-creat itself...but our build up EGO is sometimes ::) :P (eek)(eek)(clown)......:-/ and the biggest danger her is that we do believe that this pic...showes our selfs ::) (dead)(dizzy)
and then problems are appearing.... the Riso enneagram shows up how our Egos are build in our youth  and he gives us the key to enter it and to change it!!! This is one with Briggs Myers books giftsdifferings which is a real and honest eyeopener...even if we feel a bit trapped (wink)(clap)(dance)(ok)(ok)

geekchic, if you want and if you aren't afraid of my pidginings, so I wrote about the patterns and the enneagram in english language... in the archive it's to be found ;)...no problems here, it seems that the author wrotet better than me ;)  ;D ;D ;D :D
Posted by: 1879 (Guest), Saturday, December 15, 2007, 3:01pm; Reply: 61
Quoted from Amazone I.

geekchic, if you want and if you aren't afraid of my pidginings, so I wrote about the patterns and the enneagram in english language... in the archive it's to be found ;)...no problems here, it seems that the author wrotet better than me ;)  ;D ;D ;D :D


I've read them already, but I don't think they answered my questions about (dis)integration and changes in Myers-Briggs type.
Posted by: Amazone I., Saturday, December 15, 2007, 3:40pm; Reply: 62
:-/ hmmm I think it is one of the replies  ??) ;) ;D ;D ;D
Posted by: 1879 (Guest), Saturday, December 15, 2007, 7:10pm; Reply: 63
Quoted from Amazone I.
:-/ hmmm I think it is one of the replies  ??) ;) ;D ;D ;D


Your reply in this thread regarding the changes in 1 particular type did not answer any of my questions. I don't know how that generalizes to all types or even just my type.
Posted by: TJ, Saturday, December 15, 2007, 8:18pm; Reply: 64
I have been doing a bit of reading on adrenal fatigue

http://www.dadamo.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-encloplib/m-1167170022/s-0/
http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/adrenal_fatigue.cfm

and that looks suspiciously like some of my experiences, and makes a lot of sense.  I've read some of Dr. Lam's page, but I'm hesitant to completely trust the info there because it appears that he is trying to sell a product.  I will have to read the "adrenal fatigue" thread to get more trustworthy information!
Posted by: Lola, Saturday, December 15, 2007, 9:41pm; Reply: 65
http://www.dadamo.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-Suggest/m-1167308914/
http://www.dadamo.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b=encloplib,m=1165756772
http://www.dadamo.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b=encloplib,m=1164390423
http://www.dadamo.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b=encloplib,m=1163087851
Posted by: TJ, Sunday, December 16, 2007, 1:31am; Reply: 66
Ah, judging from all the references to Dr. Lam's website, I'm going to say that he's spot-on?  If y'all think he's telling it like it is, not just promoting his product, I will happily take your words for it!
Posted by: Victoria, Sunday, December 16, 2007, 2:01am; Reply: 67
Dr. Lam's page on Adrenal Fatigue opened my eyes to another level of my own healing.  I don't really know what he is selling because I didn't read that part.  His words are in agreement with the wonderful book, Adrenal Fatigue: A 21st Century Health Syndrom, which I checked out from our library.  I don't remember the author.
Posted by: Curious, Sunday, December 16, 2007, 8:37am; Reply: 68
Quoted from Victoria
... the wonderful book, Adrenal Fatigue: A 21st Century Health Syndrom, which I checked out from our library.  I don't remember the author.

The author is James L. Wilson - it is the best book I have read on adrenal fatigue.

Posted by: Amazone I., Sunday, December 16, 2007, 9:42am; Reply: 69
(oh)(oh)(oh)hmmm I thought that merely A's and B's are concerned with ellevated cortisollevels in case of stress??) .....
and that the question of adrenal fatigue is merely the concern of the axis *hypophyse-thyroide-adrenals* the so called *burnout-syndrome*.......confounded often with depression....but here the O's are the worldmaischda for that issue...no??)

btw. I am sure that this might touch everybody of us :-/... :P(what)(dead)(dead)(shy)(eek)
Posted by: Lola, Sunday, December 16, 2007, 4:10pm; Reply: 70
here s where the GTD will define which type of people fall into this category!!
Posted by: TJ, Monday, December 17, 2007, 3:22pm; Reply: 71
Truly, the more I think about it, the more I think this "adrenal fatigue" business is the best explanation for my chronic depression and fatigue.  Perhaps it even explains the issue I had that prompted me to post this topic in the first place!

Here is my theory.  I started BTD, removing lots of toxins from my diet.  My adrenal glands celebrate by partially recovering from their exhausted state much more quickly than usual, causing me to start feeling great!  While feeling great, I naturally go out and overextend myself, just like I do every time I start feeling great again after an extended episode of illness.

So now the challenge is to let myself recover--completely.  I have decided to retire to bed no later than 10 pm, according to Dr. Lam's advice, and to let myself sleep as long as I can.  I'm not in the habit of going to bed that early on a regular basis, so I'm taking melatonin around 9:30 pm (2-3 x 300 mcg tablets) so that I will actually be able to fall asleep.  I figure that might take some load off my glands, too, since they won't have to produce as much melatonin on their own.  Ideally, I won't have to keep taking it indefinitely because I'll get used to going to bed at that time.

I am also making a conscious effort to increase my sodium intake.  My blood pressure needs to come up some.  I have the classic cold hands and feet, and whenever I measure my blood pressure it's typically 110-120 over 60-80.  I am already supplementing my magnesium, calcium, and potassium, so it makes sense to me.
Posted by: Lola, Monday, December 17, 2007, 4:37pm; Reply: 72
Quoted Text
While feeling great, I naturally go out and overextend myself, just like I do every time I start feeling great again after an extended episode of illness.


we learn as we walk! ;)
Posted by: Ribbit, Monday, December 17, 2007, 5:42pm; Reply: 73
Drive, if you can find some gray (unbleached) sea salt, it's a great addition to your morning feeding routine.  I was using 1/2-1 tsp. of regular sea salt in warm lemon water in the morning until I found unbleached sea salt.  The flavor is so warm and rich and balanced that when I make lentil soup I barely have to use any other seasonings.  It's delicious and does good things for adrenals.

Almost everything you have posted here is my B husband exactly.  I'd like to him to read this thread and post suggestions job-wise he's discovered.
Posted by: roller56, Monday, December 17, 2007, 5:52pm; Reply: 74

You can find the unbleached "grey" seasalt at www.celtic-seasalt. com. or www.wildernessfamily naturals.
Posted by: TJ, Monday, December 17, 2007, 6:23pm; Reply: 75
Thanks for the suggestion.  I hope sea salt isn't as strong-tasting as table salt, or I won't be able to drink that concoction.  I mixed 1/4 tsp table salt, 1 tsp lemon juice in 1 c. water, and GAG ME WITH A SPOON! that was nasty.  Maybe I'll just have to suck it up and force it down...

From Dr. Lam's page:
"Food that is high in potassium such as bananas and dried figs can make the adrenals worse and should be avoided."

In that light, should I stop taking my potassium supplement?
Posted by: SquarePeg, Monday, December 17, 2007, 6:38pm; Reply: 76
You know I mentioned adrenal fatigue, but that was just a far-fetched supposition on my part.  Is there a reason you're taking potassium?  I'd hate for you to stop taking something you need just because of an off-hand comment I made.

But the next time you need a blood test, discuss whether your level of cortisol should also be tested.  The blood draw should be taken at 8:00am for this, BTW.

Remember, one day at a time, one moment at a time.
Posted by: TJ, Monday, December 17, 2007, 7:27pm; Reply: 77
Quoted from SquarePeg
Isn't this indicative of a sluggish adrenal gland?  Or I could be confusing this with the habit of putting off things until the last minute, which leads to a panic-stricken effort (with the accompanying rush of adrenaline) to do the thing.


Yes, you did in a roundabout way, but this was regarding Mekan's statement I believe.  I have just seen references to adrenal fatigue in other threads I've read, and when I finally decided to do some reading on it, it made sense as a possibly explanation.

I just came home with a copy of "Adrenal Fatigue: The 21st Century Stress Syndrome".  Hopefully it will be enlightening.  Not to mention, it's so much easier to sit and read from a book instead of a computer screen!
Posted by: angel, Monday, December 17, 2007, 7:29pm; Reply: 78
Drive55,
If you do need s those meds your Bishop from the ward can help with that. The Bishop can refer you to LDS Social Services (if they have it there) , which has a counseling arm for various needs.  
I am originally from the Richmond area. the winters do get dark there as they do here in Utah. I know it really affects me. I have severe adrenal fatigue and my hormones are messed up. When my husband was deployed to Iraq the first time I spent time at the gym and 10-20 mins in a tanning bed at least 4-5 times a week. I was probably more compliant with the BTD than I have been at any other time. I am working on being compliant again and my husband is highly encouraging because he really enjoyed the woman he came home to. I miss the feeling of being very healthy. Hopefully the GTD will help me improve more and confirm some of my observations. It really helped me as I was responsible for everything on the home front (Homeschooling 5 kids, working on my Master, paying the bills and general home maintenance). I think those two things made a huge difference in how I handled everything else. Talk to the Bishop and get some direction from him and take it throught the steps and it will work out fine.

angel
Posted by: TJ, Monday, December 17, 2007, 7:39pm; Reply: 79
Quoted from SquarePeg
Is there a reason you're taking potassium?  I'd hate for you to stop taking something you need just because of an off-hand comment I made.


It's part of the nerve health and fatigue-fighting protocols.

Quoted from SquarePeg
But the next time you need a blood test, discuss whether your level of cortisol should also be tested.  The blood draw should be taken at 8:00am for this, BTW.


Dr. Lam recommends a saliva test for the cortisol level:

"The best way to test your adrenal health is to measure your level of free key adrenal hormones such as cortisol and DHEA.  Saliva testing is preferred as it measures the amount of free and circulating hormones instead of the binded hormone commonly measured in blood test."

Angel,

I have been getting a lot of help from my bishop, but I'm hesitant to ask for more.  He's a very conventional fellow, and I think he's not entirely convinced that there is anything wrong with me.  But I will consider it.  Getting tested for adrenal fatigue is out of my financial reach right now, but it seems to be a strong explanation for several aspects of my condition, so getting tested for it seems like a wise choice.
Posted by: Whimsical, Monday, December 17, 2007, 8:24pm; Reply: 80
Quoted from TJ
My blood pressure needs to come up some.  I have the classic cold hands and feet, and whenever I measure my blood pressure it's typically 110-120 over 60-80.  I am already supplementing my magnesium, calcium, and potassium, so it makes sense to me.


I have to disagree with this - your current blood pressure is very healthy and is not too low!  120/80 is now (under new guidelines) considered the UPPER LIMIT for healthy blood pressure.  90/60 is considered hypotension, but is still not treated (at least in NA) unless there are concomitant symptoms.  

Cold hands & feet is another issue and could be due to so many things.  Off the top of my head, you could try improving your circulation with daily alternating hot/cold showers (approx 2 min hot water, then 30s max cold water, repeat 2-3 times in the shower).  You could also look into Traditional Chinese Medicine theories of Yin & Yang.  Going off your posts to this forum, it seems that you may have a Yang deficiency.  This would leave Yin unbalanced by Yang and therefore excess - see depression, heaviness, introversion, etc.
Posted by: OSuzanna, Monday, December 17, 2007, 8:42pm; Reply: 81
I suffered from cold hands & feet my whole life, and when I went BTD, they reduced by maybe 90%, along with my sensitivity to cold. My blood pressure, a lifelong 90/58, had crept up into the 'teens like 113-120. Again, BTD normalized it at around 90-102 over 60. BTD keeps my bp in line, and the cold extremities behaving.  :) Maybe something here can help.
Posted by: TJ, Monday, December 17, 2007, 8:49pm; Reply: 82
Quoted from roller56
You can find the unbleached "grey" seasalt at www.celtic-seasalt. com. or www.wildernessfamily naturals.


Will the package say "unbleached", or do I just stay away from the stuff that says it's bleached?

Also, as I was sipping this nasty cup of salt water, it occurred to me that some of the nasty flavor could come from the iodine.  If so, that un-iodized sea salt will be a welcome improvement.
Posted by: honeybee, Monday, December 17, 2007, 8:54pm; Reply: 83
Quoted from TJ


Will the package say "unbleached", or do I just stay away from the stuff that says it's bleached?

Also, as I was sipping this nasty cup of salt water, it occurred to me that some of the nasty flavor could come from the iodine.  If so, that un-iodized sea salt will be a welcome improvement.


yes - there are lots of threads about the benefits of sea salts as table salt can have iodine (and even corn in it to stop it sticking and make it pour easlily.) Sea salt is big flaky tasty salts, some people add a little to their water also.. search the forum for this popular thread / topic :)
Posted by: Victoria, Monday, December 17, 2007, 9:34pm; Reply: 84
I am currently using Himalayan Crystal Salt.  I mix up what is called a Sole' (solay).  It is a saturated salt solution made by putting a good sized scoop of natural, unbleached, evaporation-dried sea salt into a quart jar.  Add pure water (filtered or spring water) to fill about 3/4 full.  If all the salt dissolves, add more salt and stir.  Keep this up until the salt no longer dissolves.  You have reached saturation.

In the morning, I take 1 tsp of this sole' and mix into 8 oz. of filtered water, and drink on an empty stomach.  It supplies a complex array of minerals and electrolytes to the cells.  Table salt does not work for this purpose because it is a highly refined and processed substance that provides sodium and not much else.
Posted by: TJ, Monday, December 17, 2007, 10:06pm; Reply: 85
Ok, I'm sold.  I will go out and find myself some sea salt.  I'm sure I will find it at Ukrop's, The Vitamin Shoppe, or Good Foods.  The next question then, is, how do you get iodine if you don't eat iodized salt or seaweed?
Posted by: honeybee, Monday, December 17, 2007, 11:09pm; Reply: 86
Quoted from TJ
Ok, I'm sold.  I will go out and find myself some sea salt.  I'm sure I will find it at Ukrop's, The Vitamin Shoppe, or Good Foods.  The next question then, is, how do you get iodine if you don't eat iodized salt or seaweed?


have a look at this on another thread by ABJoe on iodine-
http://www.dadamo.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?m-1196952704/s-7/highlight-iodine/#num7
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 12:28am; Reply: 87
I think I was right, this sea salt is better tasting stuff.

In the meantime, now I've got more stress from dad.  I just got off the phone with him, and he still seems to think that there's nothing wrong with me, that this is all in my head.  Even after all these years!  I can hardly believe my father would be this ignorant.  The first he said about this opinion was within the last few months, so I wonder if he's been keeping it to himself, or if he's just recently developed it.

If I understand him correctly, he thinks that I'm just giving up on every job I ever get because I don't like it.  "You need to find yourself a trade and stick with it."  He preaches to me about just putting up with things I don't like, and how all the hard work he did when he was young made him tough--then admitting on the other side of his mouth how bad his health is.  Can't he hear the hypocrisy?  Can he understand that I'm not the same as him?

I am amazed that he could contemplate all the years of bad health I've been through, and decide that I'm just a spineless quitter, instead of accepting the obvious conclusion that there really is something wrong.  And it really hurts, to know that's what dad thinks of you.
Posted by: Curious, Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 12:42am; Reply: 88
Quoted from TJ
The next question then, is, how do you get iodine if you don't eat iodized salt or seaweed?

Have you ever tried some seaweed? Nori is easy to eat and you could add some wakame, dulse or arame to your vegetables. It is very good for a low thyroid which often goes hand in hand with adrenal fatigue. It could be worth trying.
Sorry to hear about your dad. It is sad if the people we love don't support us.

Posted by: Lola, Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 1:08am; Reply: 89
drive55,
try getting to read or see 'the secret'......so much will fall into place for you! :)
Posted by: jayneeo, Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 1:56am; Reply: 90
drive55, your dad is trying to help you in his own way....but its still hard to take! ;)
Posted by: roller56, Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 2:05am; Reply: 91

Hi Driver55,

Victoria is right about the Himalayan Crystal Salt.  I completely forgot about it.  Also, when ever you can afford to get the saliva testing, check out http://www.canaryclub.org where there is testing.  You may have to join, which is free, so you can look at other testing done there.  There are other labs for saliva testing and as soon as I can remember  them i will let you know.
Posted by: Ribbit, Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 2:36am; Reply: 92
I laughed when I read your reaction to salt water, as it's the same reaction I get from my husband!  "That's disgusting.  How could you drink that?  It's salty!"  
Posted by: OSuzanna, Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 3:02am; Reply: 93
I cook with sea salt, it's so much better, you get spoiled.

Your parent(s) cannot be counted on to come around and see things your way. My mother was like, here she goes again ::) when I started BTD, but as she saw the dramatic changes in my overall health, skintone and even, she claims, my personality(!), she realized there must be some fire making all that smoke!! ;D My dad, who could benefit hugely from the diet, doesn't want to hear it. I think your dad means well, but he's tethered by his ways of thinking. Sometimes we just can't break through those walls...
Take comfort in the positive things as you can...
Posted by: Ribbit, Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 3:32am; Reply: 94
Drive55,

This is Ribbit's Husband. I am like you in many, many ways. So much like you that it is scary to read your posts.

I had the same reaction at the early stages of the BTD, and the same return of the pre-BTD malaise after a couple of months. I have had to do some significant tweaking of my diet, using the BTD as a general guide but eliminating additional foods that might be BTD-safe for a B (probably non-secretor) like myself.

I laughed at you suddenly quitting your job. I think I am on my fourth career (maybe fifth!) and I am only 39 years old. I ran away from a high school teaching job to go to grad school. While there, I would sit in my office for hours, sitting in my chair in a semi-fetal position, with fists, then suddenly weke up and work at the three different jobs [only one of which was paying] that I did. I ran away from my degree and got a job in a totally different field when I was finished. My current occupation looks like is going to stick: I enjoy it, I am good at it, I get to use my degree, and I am no longer depressed about life in general. I have no reason, and no desire, to jump ship AGAIN. I am no longer running from the dark shadow that was always looming over me, seeking to swallow me into its oblivion.

Stay off the antidepressants! They will make you not want to fix your real problems. You will just go in circles.

I know about wanting to crawl into caves. In fact, I have often wanted a very dark and quiet place to disappear into. Sometimes the best I could do was find a pillow, pull it over my head, and try desperately to filter out my kids, my wife, and my life.

Let me tell you the one thing that has helped me more than any other: Emergen-C "Electro Mix" (in the green package - it has no sugar, unlike their other products - just an electrolyte solution). Sadly, the producers of this fine product have started to add tapioca maltodextrin and stevia [avoids for me]). But, the new ingredients do not seem to bother me any. It is the MAGNESIUM that I need. I split up one package and add it to my drink at each meal, every day. Doesn't take much if I take it regularly. Don't know why, but magnesium stops the "run-away-and-hide" reaction and puts me back on my feet - sometimes instantly. There are other products out there that I am experimenting with - Peter Gilliams' "CALM" (magnesium salts)(just the magnesium, the cal-mag does not seem to work as well, but I'm still experimenting).

After that, my list of avoids is long: corn, wheat (and all gluten), milk (not cheese, as far as I can tell), SOY! (makes me angry just to type the stupid word. grrrr.), chicken, all sweeteners (real and artificial), all sorts of sticky things (tapioca, and kind of 'gum,' etc.), carbs in general (gotta go light on carbs, but keep a balance), peanuts, maybe almonds...

If I eat an avoid, get off balance with my carbs, or if I don't get enough magnesium, I freak out, just like you. No, you are not 'conditioned to panic and run.' You are probably going through the same reaction-thing that I go through. I cannot explain it. My PhD-in-genetics-mind cannot figure it out. There is no way that the BTD should work (I am a skeptic at heart), but it sure does, with the modification I explained above.

The BTD helped at first because you removed some significant avoids from your diet. It is no longer working (as well?) because there are still some things that you have yet to figure out. This seems to be a common story and is something else that I cannot explain. Going through a significant life-change seems to work also? Becase you live on adrenaline. When the novelty wears off, the old black cloud come back, does it not? Stick with it! Keep experimenting! Go super-BTD. Watch the carbs? Get plenty of magnesium? Remove more potential problem foods? Get enough exercise? (one other interesting feature of my life on the BTD: I no longer feel like I have to "move or die." This has killed my desire for exercise and pretty ended my occasional morning run, but I cannot say that this is a bad thing since I feel so good in general.)

When I quit my last-last job (cubicle hell), I moved my family to a different city and took a job as a handyman, working with a friend of mine. It was wonderful - lots of fresh air, moving all day long, always something new, one or two projects per day. That was what I needed to get my head on straight and it served as something that I could use to feed my family while I waited for something better (my current job). Handyman work might be hard to find during the current housing slump, but take a job where you have to move - you will feel alive so who cares what exactly it is!

The vicious cycle has an end. You just have to find the way out. Stick with it. My out was the BTD, plus.

- Ribbit's husband.
Posted by: Lola, Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 4:21am; Reply: 95
(sunny)thanks for sharing!! :D
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 1:24pm; Reply: 96
Dear Ribbit's husband (lol),

Thank you so much for your story.  It is good to know that I'm not the only one who's suffered this variety of insanity!  Fortunately, I am seeing the light at the end of the tunnel now, even though it is occasionally obscured.  I will have to reread your advice, since your experience has been so similar to mine!

I like how you worked as a handyman, I have started doing a little of the same.  I have only had one job so far, but another one lined up.  Also I've done a bit of construction work with a friend of mine who is understanding of my need to pace myself.

I don't think I will need to go back to the meds.  That was a little panic that incited the desire, but it's past now.

Everybody,

I picked up a bag of Redmond RealSalt last night.  It does have iodine in it too, but less than 1/4 of the amount in table salt.  This stuff isn't evaporated sea water, it's mined from an ancient sea bed in Redmond, UT, and it's got a pinkish color to it.  But it is good!  And it has several trace minerals too.

I have read some of the book "Adrenal Fatigue: The 21st Century Stress Syndrome", and it seems like a viable explanation, combined with my HSP status.  HSP = highly vunerable to stress =  highly vulnerable to adrenal fatigue.  It explains a lot of what I've experienced.  I think that I'm recovering now, which is good news.  I just need to keep on recovering, and pace myself when I do get back to work.

It's funny how a new day can open your eyes.  Thinking this morning about what my dad said has shed new light on the subject.  The first time I heard this opinion from him was the last time I asked him for money, and last night I was calling him back to see if he had decided if would be ok if I moved in with him for a short spell (I was thinking about a month) as a sort of relaunch point, since he lives close to a city I'm considering moving to.  (Both of these requests of course would cost him a little bit of money.) The last time I asked for money before this most recent time was a few years ago, before he was remarried....

Also, I want to express my gratitude to all you who have contributed in any way to this thread.  Your advice and emotional support have been precious to me.  I'm so glad I found the BTD and all the online friends that come with it!
Posted by: Lola, Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 4:23pm; Reply: 97
;D
Posted by: honeybee, Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 8:17pm; Reply: 98
I hope yr dad lets u move back home- to relaunch yourself, that is what I did too, at 28 lol!

A new place to live and explore helps us whose lives are not making sense or even if we just have that sniggling sense that there must be more to it than what we are currently doing / feeling etc. ie. not ready to 'settle'..

Ribbits husband, your story is great :)

forgot to mention I just found my own place to lease, after 6 months of searching! a nice old cottage with lovely worn dark floorboards, high ceilings, its fantastic, has a lovely private garden and vege patch already going, it backs onto a golfcourse which overlooks the beach i grew up on. I love living near the ocean. It is strange to be moving back to where I grew up and actually feel excited about it, it is a pretty quiet place, I work down the road in a small office, and no cities or anything (but only 2hrs from the city- which is close enough!)
Posted by: SquarePeg, Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 8:28pm; Reply: 99
Quoted from Ribbit
This is Ribbit's Husband. --snip--

It is the MAGNESIUM that I need. I split up one package and add it to my drink at each meal, every day. Doesn't take much if I take it regularly. Don't know why, but magnesium stops the "run-away-and-hide" reaction and puts me back on my feet - sometimes instantly. There are other products out there that I am experimenting with - Peter Gilliams' "CALM" (magnesium salts)(just the magnesium, the cal-mag does not seem to work as well, but I'm still experimenting).
Have you tried taking Epsom Salt baths?  Seriously.

Also, thanks for taking time to post!

Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 8:40pm; Reply: 100
Quoted from honeybee
I hope yr dad lets u move back home- to relaunch yourself, that is what I did too, at 28 lol!


I did that, too, back in 2002, at my mother's house.  Stayed there 5 months.  It was a very healing time, and I became much closer to my mother, having grown apart from her after my parents' divorce.

I don't think I want to move in with dad after all; I suspect that would be an emotionally toxic environment for me.  His wife is a very judgmental woman, and it wouldn't be long before any healing I did there was destroyed by her sniping.  I thought she was understanding of my situation, but the fact the dad's attitude has recently turned skeptical on me, strongly suggests that she isn't (he also made an uncharacteristic and mean comment about mom on the same phone call).  I've seen her at work, and she is a master manipulator and guilt-tripper.  On the other hand, I am a master of recognizing such pretentiousness  and calling you out on it when you try that kind of c**p on me, so you can imagine what a serene, peaceful place dad's house will be within a week of me moving in.  Oh, the drama.... :B
Posted by: 1750 (Guest), Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 9:34pm; Reply: 101
I really don't know you well enough to offer sound advice, but I ask that you remember this as you choose.  Depending on your state and your need, there is nothing better for us than making our own way.  Sometimes a rest in safe harbor is needed and sometimes it is walking with a crutch when you need to walk with a limp for a bit.  Only you know what you need.  
Posted by: Amazone I., Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 10:00pm; Reply: 102
:D(clap)(dance)(clap)(woot) ribby hubby & drive 55 I think your real problem is not the i part, but that you've got converted from E to I..... normally the ENFP's /J do might quit their jobs....like that
I am interested what you both scored really in your E and or I-parts (%)
thanx for your kind eyeopener ;) ;D......
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 11:06pm; Reply: 103
Ah hah!  Here is some support for the idea of a significant connection between HSP and adrenal fatigue:
http://www.anxiety-and-depression-solutions.com/wellness_concerns/community_anxiety/041105_HSP2.php

Quoted from Amazone I.
drive 55 I think your real problem is not the i part, but that you've got converted from E to I..... normally the ENFP's /J do might quit their jobs....like that I am interested what you both scored really in your E and or I-parts


I am not really sure if I qualify as an I or E.  I think I'm leaning I right now because I enjoy my alone time so much.  Like I said in an earlier post (or was it on another thread?), I enjoy extroverting, but it wears me out!  I do relate in some ways very strongly to the "Champion" description of ENFP, so you could be right.  Personally, I think it's the HSP thing: most jobs I've ever had have been Drudgery from the start, or have become Drudgery very quickly.  Once that happens, I begin experiencing something one step away from physical pain at having to deal with the job.

Quoted from 1750
Depending on your state and your need, there is nothing better for us than making our own way.  Sometimes a rest in safe harbor is needed and sometimes it is walking with a crutch when you need to walk with a limp for a bit.


Ain't that the truth!  I'd love some safe harbor, but I doubt I'll get it at dad's, and mom doesn't have room for me.  I am still considering applying for SSI disability, that my be the closest thing I can find. :-/  One thing is for absolute certain, I need a safe place and the time to heal, where I can venture out at my own pace, and I'm still at a loss what to do.  It's obvious I've made progress, but being busy today also made it obvious that I've got a lot farther to go.
Posted by: honeybee, Tuesday, December 18, 2007, 11:16pm; Reply: 104
Quoted from Victoria
Hi there!  
  Eat as high a percentage as possible of beneficials.

(snip snip)

Try and stay calm and realize that solutions will emerge.  Before you go to bed at night, think or write down a list of the things you would like to see happen, and how you would like your career life to look and feel, and what you would like to do.  Don't censor what you write.  This is just planting seeds of positive desires.  Try to stop focusing on what you have not been happy with.  Every night pull out your list, or bring it up on the computer and write about what you do want.  This is one way of clearing the air for yourself and finding out what you are really wanting.  Do this every day for a couple of weeks, or longer.  The practice will help you know yourself more.


I still really love this advice from Victoria..ties in well with  grappling for that visualisation technique us B's are meant to be so good with :) something I must remember to keep dipping toes into..
Posted by: Curious, Thursday, December 20, 2007, 1:44am; Reply: 105
Quoted from TJ
Ah hah!  Here is some support for the idea of a significant connection between HSP and adrenal fatigue:
http://www.anxiety-and-depression-solutions.com/wellness_concerns/community_anxiety/041105_HSP2.php

That's a very interesting link, thanks for posting it, drive. I read through it last night and it makes a lot of sense.

Posted by: Amazone I., Thursday, December 20, 2007, 10:11am; Reply: 106
drive 55 I think it's a fine thing to be capable to *see* and live both sides ...I and E and I do feel you merely in the E-side and perhaps now
you got muchmore sensitive to several situations, so far I do understand how you hate dependencies ;) :K)
I am sure that you are going to make your life as most enjoyable you can ......:D felicitations (clap)(dance)(clap)(sunny)you are on the right track !!(woot)
Posted by: Ribbit, Thursday, December 20, 2007, 6:05pm; Reply: 107
Yes, I believe my  husband swings between E and I.  He loves to extrovert also, but it exhausts him (and his family suffers for it!).  Part of his job requires him to speak to crowds of sometimes several hundred, and when he's doing it, and afterwords, chatting to listeners, he's in his element.  He's wired and excited and talkative, but then as soon as he gets home, it takes him sometimes a couple of days to recover.  He withdraws and is touchy and sulky.  Completely different from "normal."  It was rather shocking after we got married to see the difference.  I thought it was just me, that after we were married, maybe he thought I was too boring to talk to anymore.  But now I realize he struggles with energy management , and he just needs me to feed him beneficial foods to keep his body.  He's also a genius, which means his brain keeps going and going and never stops, even if his body has to quit.  He's a visionary, like I expect you are, Drive.  He has great ideas but has a little trouble putting the actions with the words.  He works best in an environment where he doesn't have to sit still, he can bat around neat scientific ideas with people all day, do a little writing, a little research, a lot of talking, and gets paid for it!
Posted by: TJ, Friday, December 21, 2007, 12:53am; Reply: 108
Quoted from Ribbit
Yes, I believe my  husband swings between E and I.  He loves to extrovert also, but it exhausts him (and his family suffers for it!).  Part of his job requires him to speak to crowds of sometimes several hundred, and when he's doing it, and afterwords, chatting to listeners, he's in his element.  He's wired and excited and talkative, but then as soon as he gets home, it takes him sometimes a couple of days to recover.  He withdraws and is touchy and sulky.  Completely different from "normal."


That does sound like a well socially-developed I to me.  My understanding is the the I/E axis is the "energizing" function.  E's get energizing by big crowds and human interaction.  I's can still can enjoy being outgoing, but it costs them a lot more.  (These are archetypal characterizations of course.)

Quoted from Ribbit
He's a visionary, like I expect you are, Drive.  He has great ideas but has a little trouble putting the actions with the words.  He works best in an environment where he doesn't have to sit still, he can bat around neat scientific ideas with people all day, do a little writing, a little research, a lot of talking, and gets paid for it!


Sounds like an _NT_ to me!  I can identify, and it's also a bit flattering to be compared with a genius! ;)

So now I have another challenge before me: I'm in NC with family, and as much as I love them, I have to find time for peace and quiet to recharge from time to time, which is much harder to do away from home.  But it will be worth it to be with them over the holiday!
Posted by: Ribbit, Friday, December 21, 2007, 1:00am; Reply: 109
Well, here's what I did over Thanksgiving with my husband's family.  When I started feeling like I wanted to either smack a sister-in-law for asking for the 200th time why we're homeschooling, or yell for my inherited neice to quit teaching my son bad words, or sock a brother-in-law for trying to force my daughter to give him a kiss on the cheek (the jerk--it makes her uncomfortable, as well it should, and she says NO, and he still grabs her and tries to force her) (I probably will end up socking him one of these days if my husband doesn't do it first--you can bet I keep a close eye on him)---I just gather my children together and we go on a walk, just to take a break from the noise.  We get to regroup, smile at each other, spend a few quite minutes talking about differing lifestyles, and then we go back.  But we do this a couple of times a day.  Just get away from everybody for a little while and breathe.
Posted by: TJ, Thursday, December 27, 2007, 10:18pm; Reply: 110
[big sigh of relief]

I got back to Richmond yesterday, after spending 6 days away (left here Thursday last week).  I'm surprised at how well I coped.  After arriving at mom's house Thursday, we drove across the state to visit my youngest brother on Friday, and stayed there until Sunday afternoon.  His wife is also a rather sensitive person herself, and I was excited to talk to her about all I've learned.  The biggest things that bothered me there were his psycho cat (I am not a cat-lover, and I'm mildly allergic to them, or at least I used to be...), and my step-father's ongoing commentary about my dietary habits.  The comments stopped after returning, but mom has a cat too :(.  In spite of that, I slept well at her house, and told her that I think my body had finally gotten the picture that I was serious about going to bed by 10 pm; now my eyes are getting heavy at 9!  Yet somehow, I couldn't get to sleep last night, and had to get back up....  

My mother is a calm and quiet woman, and so is her home, and that was a life-saver, but I still had some big, traumatic sort of stress at dad's house.  Unfortunately, it was self-induced.  I have been hearing my step-mother's negative commentary for a few years now about my above-mentioned brother (and also wondered what she says about me when I'm not around), and after hearing a few remarks this time I blew up at her!  It was certainly not the way I had planned on speaking to her about this concern of mine, but that's how it happened.  I was so upset that I was trembling all over, inside and out.  She was also very upset, and I felt bad about ever saying anything, so I went back a few days later and apologized for everything.  I still think what I thought before (if a little less solidly), but speaking up that way was inappropriate, and confronting her isn't likely to change anything anyway--she just denied everything I said, and I'm sure she's convinced that she has done nothing wrong--so I was sincerely sorry that I spoke up, even if I wasn't apologetic for what I thought.  All it accomplished was making a scene and possibly alienating part of my family :'(, and putting another big, unnecessary load on my adrenal glands.  Just another lesson learned, I guess.

Edited to normalize font size.
Posted by: Ribbit, Friday, December 28, 2007, 4:38am; Reply: 111
You're such a B.  ::) :D Hey-I wonder if HSPs are paranoid in general?
Posted by: TJ, Friday, December 28, 2007, 3:15pm; Reply: 112
I bet we are more prone to that: since we are so much more sensitive to others' thoughts and feelings, I guess we are more likely to notice when someone has it in for us.  On the other hand, it's not paranoia if they really are out to get you! ;)
Posted by: Ribbit, Friday, December 28, 2007, 4:13pm; Reply: 113
Ha. That's what I say when my fam calls me paranoid.  At the same time, though, and this is something I don't get at all, I'm so trusting toward some people that it always surprises me that they can be so mean!  I get hurt and can't figure out why.  Because I'm sensitive?  But with other people, I know immediately they're bad news and when they do something weird it's not a surprise at all--I doubted them from the first.  My brothers think I have a mental condition. (No, that would be my mother, who they say I'm like, but my husband says, "No, if you were like her I wouldn't have married you.")  I think I'm just an HSP.

Talk about paranoia.  My mother tells the story about her mother, my grandmother.  

My grandmother called my mom one day and said, "Hon, I've got something on my mind that's really worrying me."
"What's that, Mama?"
"Well, there's a block of cheese in my refrigerator that I distinctly remember putting in my freezer when I got it home from the store last week."
"Well, Mama, you must have moved it and forgotten you did it."
"No, no, now if I'd moved it I would remember it."
"Well, if you didn't move it, who do you think did?"
"That's just what's worrying me.  Who really did it?"
"Well?  Who else has been in the house?"
"Oh, there hasn't been anybody here at all except me and the little dog, you know."
"Sooo?" *sigh*
"But I've been thinking and thinking, and the only think I could come up with was a man in the grocery store."
"What?"
"Well, there was a man in the grocery store behind me and he was one of them Japs [you have to understand, my grandfather fought in the trenches during WWII], and I just know he must have looked over my shoulder while I was writing the check and he must have memorized my address and broken in during the night."
"But, Mama, how would he have gotten past the dog and the security system you paid a lot of money for?"
"I don't know, Hon, and I can't imagine why I didn't wake up.  He must have done something to turn the security system off."
"But, Mama, there wasn't any sign of a break-in.  Your door was still locked in the morning, no windows were broken..."
"I sure don't know.  But you can't trust them---"
"Mama, think about this.  Why in the world would anybody break into your house, hijack the alarm system and move cheese from your freezer to your refrigerator and then lock the door and reset the alarm on their way back out?"
"I just can't understand it, but they must have done it.  I can't believe I slept through it...."

So my mom hung up the phone and told us this, and we took turns being concerned and chuckling.  

"Mama," I said.  "She's getting old."  
"Oh, no, honey.  She's always been like this, even when we were little.  It's just about different things now."

But what the rest of us were most concerned about, and chuckling about, was the fact that my mother's the same way, just to a lesser degree.

So when my brothers accused me of being just like them, I was really worried, for years and years, that I might be just like them as I got older.  But I will tell you one thing that has set my mind at ease more than anything else in the world.  It's something my brothers don't understand and don't believe.  The fact that they're both Os and I'm an A!!!!!  Broooo-hahahahahahaha.  I won't get what they've got!!!!!(woot)
Posted by: jayneeo, Friday, December 28, 2007, 6:30pm; Reply: 114
well what do they have? Being an O isn't so bad..... ::)
Posted by: Ribbit, Friday, December 28, 2007, 10:24pm; Reply: 115
Oooooh, but who knows?  Everybody's so paranoid of doctors nobody'll go to one.  Some (of us children/grandchildren) say simple paranoia, others say paranoid schizophrenia, others say it's just OCD, others say bipolar.  Definitely depression, any way you turn it.  That (above) isn't everything, it's just a start.  I don't know what it is, and I was joking about it being an O thing.  I'm not saying it's an O thing, just simply that I won't inherit it!   ;)  No, being O isn't bad at all. :K)
Posted by: Ribbit, Tuesday, January 1, 2008, 1:34am; Reply: 116
So, Drive, getting together with the fam for New Year's too? What coping skills are you learning that you can share with other HSPs?
Posted by: 521 (Guest), Tuesday, January 1, 2008, 4:08am; Reply: 117
I also swing between E and I, but I've figured out that it depends upon whether or not I think I'm around sane-minded people.  

If I presume that I'm around, or going to be around, safe, sane-minded people, then I automatically kick into my trusting, relaxed and enthusiastic, "extrovert" mode.

But once I start realizing that I'm around vain-minded people, then the realization that I'm in a milieu of unsafe madness where objectivity and sanity go out the window in favor of deranged and myopic egomania and a general climate of cannibalistic unfairness, then I find myself pulling back socially and psychologically, and becoming very depressed, angry, and anxious, and wanting desperately to get away or, at least, become an unassuming, invisible wallflower, much like Claudius the "fool" in the court of Rome.  And so then, of course, I become an "introvert".

I guess your general temperament, as far as whether you tend to prefer objective truth or subjective truth, determines how well you regard being around people.  As I find the majority of the human population to be a whim-worshipping, coercive mob, I'm generally an introvert.

In light of this, which I believe to be an actual truth about majority human nature, I also believe that labels like "paranoia" and "schizophrenia" are just self-serving and narcissistically-reassuring labels that the shameless and power-lusting cattle-drivers of society systematically slap on anyone who attempts to actually think or who, upon either the verge or the attainment of actual consciousness, is overcome with the awareness of the real horror of what human civilization generally is, and has the nonconformist nerve to, God forbid, psychologically fall apart in the face of it all.

Because of this, I think that, in our corruption-based dynamic of human civilization, "nervous breakdowns" are really and truly the only reliable signs that people are still human and alive, because it means that they are, whether consciously or unconsciously, appropriately responsive to the philosophical horror of things.  And the best book that I've ever read which supports and is based on this very notion, is the book Resilience by Frederic Flach, a psychiatrist who passed away recently.
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, January 1, 2008, 3:07pm; Reply: 118
Ron, I'm soooo there with you on your sentiments about society.  I can identify with you I/E situation too.  I usually find myself more comfortable around other "crazy" people like myself, who have struggled with depression or anxiety problems, or who just like doing things their own way (and "to hell with anyone who has a problem with that!"), than with the more common, insensitive, competitive, and uncentered variety of people that represent the majority.  I tend to withdraw when I am uncomfortable with the social climate I'm currently in, but put me with other sensitive, moral, mature, and well-centered people, and I can sometimes be the life of the party, assuming I am feeling well when I get there.

Hey, sounds to me like you're a candidate for flipping over from T to F also!

Quoted from Ribbit
So, Drive, getting together with the fam for New Year's too? What coping skills are you learning that you can share with other HSPs?


Thank goodness, no, I didn't drive all the way back to NC for the new year.  I was fast asleep when 2008 strolled in, which is just how I wanted it.  I don't understand the hullabaloo over this holiday: I think it's just an excuse to throw a party.  I did go to a friend's New Year's Eve gathering last night, but I left at 9:30.

As far as coping skills go, here's an important one I was recently reminded of: the "reality check".  If I'd done this with dear step-mum, it wouldn't have made any more progress toward resolution than my approach did, but it wouldn't have been so messy and it would have made it just as plain that there would be no resolution (i.e. admission/recognition from her of what she was doing).

So what is this "reality check", you ask?  In a sense, it's confronting someone with your suspicion, but doing so in a non-confrontational way.  Instead of blaming, you talk to them about what you are feeling and thinking as a way of letting them know how they are being perceived.  This gives them a chance to set you straight on what they meant (which is what usually happens), or to verify to you that, yes indeed, I am out to get you!

For example, I perceived in my step-mother's tone that she didn't think very highly of my youngest brother (and I'd heard that tone repeatedly when speaking of him, or I wouldn't have confronted her), whenever she'd say anything about him.  Instead of accusing her of bad-mouthing him, I could have said that it sounds like she's bad-mouthing him to me.  It's a subtle difference, but very important.  The first puts my step-mother on the defensive, but the second, which just talks about what I think, just puts her on notice that something doesn't sound right to me, and that gives her a chance to explain, which she almost certainly would have done.  Even if she really did have some ill feeling toward my little bro, most likely she would explain it away as a misunderstanding on my part, and from thenceforth, she would be very careful to keep her feelings to herself.  I may never know the truth (whether I just misunderstood her, or whether she truly had any bad feeling), but it accomplishes what I want to happen all the same!

This kind of approach is worthless with someone who is openly hostile to you, but in most cases your "enemy" isn't openly hostile, so it is effective.  And truly, more often than not you will find that you simply misunderstood the other party, and that this is no enemy at all (but you must trust your intuition for that answer).  It's a great tool for clearing the air.  I hope this doesn't sound like a manipulative, conniving behavior, because in my experience, it isn't; and doing this brings potential problems out into the open, which actually eliminates a lot of potential conniving and manipulating.
Posted by: 521 (Guest), Tuesday, January 1, 2008, 10:20pm; Reply: 119
Here's a good review of Bartleby:

http://brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/233
Posted by: TJ, Wednesday, January 2, 2008, 2:25am; Reply: 120
I must have missed the end of the story where Bartleby is "removed by the police and starves to death in the Tombs, preferring not to eat."  I hope this was a bit of sarcasm?

I can't say I agree with you about this being a good review (unless you are talking about the first review, above David Sandberg's): poor Mr. Sandberg seems to read far too much into this story (which is my typical experience with reviews of classic literature), making this story into some diatribe against capitalism and other "evils" of modern society.  Seems that many who do a review like this have an "axe to grind", and they always see a useful "grindstone" in their subject matter, whatever it may be.  I think I'll stick with the earlier-discussed idea that Bartleby was just overwhelmed and tired!
Posted by: TJ, Saturday, January 5, 2008, 4:01pm; Reply: 121
So I've received a mildly interesting bit of information.  My mother finally got her blood type from her doctor, and he said that she's an A+.  I still don't know dad's type though.  Now I've been having these nagging doubts about whether I was typed correctly (which could explain why BTD wasn't quite enough!), so I looked through some of my old records, and in my immunization record I was labeled as an A+.  I wonder if they were just lazy and assumed that I had the same blood type as mom, or if they botched the test.

I "know" I'm a type B+ because I gave blood at Virginia Blood Services earlier in 2007, and that's the type I am on my donor card.  I plan on calling the Red Cross in NC who has my records from when I gave blood in high school, to double-check: hopefully they will verify that I am a type B+.  Anyway, it has occurred to me that if I show up as a B+ on one test, and an A+ on another, maybe I'm actually an AB+? especially if mom's an A+ and one of my brothers is a B+.  That means that dad has to be a B, unless mom was mistyped, or unless both my brother and I were mistyped.

Ugh...eventually I'm just going to have to get an Eldoncard and do it myself before I'm satisfied that it's correct.  At least, if I'm an AB+, it won't mess up my Nomad genotype!
Posted by: gulfcoastguy, Saturday, January 5, 2008, 7:34pm; Reply: 122
Your Dad could be an AB. Some of their kids are A's, some are B's, some are AB's and if the other parent is an O some could end up as O's. The result of an AB and O pair from work was an A and 2 O's.
Posted by: TJ, Saturday, January 5, 2008, 9:42pm; Reply: 123
That's also a possibility.  But going with the percentages, it's more probable that he's a B.  And, he was never been the artsy, daydreaming type either (but still creative in his own ways), but then I'm leary about the whole BT/personality correlation anyway!  Maybe the GT/personality correlation will hold more water.
Posted by: Lola, Sunday, January 6, 2008, 5:07am; Reply: 124
hope you get a correct reading soon! ;)
Posted by: TJ, Monday, January 7, 2008, 2:41pm; Reply: 125
The Red Cross verified that I am B+ today, hooray!
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, January 29, 2008, 12:33am; Reply: 126
Here's another update, and a bit of 20/20 hindsight!  Forgive me if I repeat a couple of things I've said in other posts on other threads....

Recently, I have been studying candidiasis, and I feel strongly that this is yet another piece of the puzzle for me.  I think it could also serve as a reasonable explanation for the health decline I experienced after the bounce I got shortly after starting the BTD.

The two big clues that suggest this are my thrush and athlete's foot.  I've had the whitish-yellowish gunk on the back of my tongue as long as I can remember, and I've had a bit of athlete's foot on my left D4 almost as long.  After a couple months on BTD, I noticed that the tongue gunk had thinned and receded some (why can't it just go away?), and the athlete's foot was gone except the bit embedded in the nail.  Both of these are symptoms of candida, and since both decreased, I think the misery I was going through was partly due to die-off!

I'm doing the spit test every morning now, and it confirms that I have a candida overgrowth still, but I think I made serious headway in the battle, without even realizing there WAS a battle, just by going on the BTD.  I am cutting back even more on my sugary, starchy foods, and I've started taking a probiotic, too.
Posted by: karen, Tuesday, January 29, 2008, 2:00am; Reply: 127
Hey drive55, glad to hear you are noticing improvements since starting the diet.  Candida/fungal can be a major cause of depression and mood swings and it can be very hard to cure.  I hope you stick with the diet because it's obvious it's working for you.

Have you been using coconut oil?  It's a Nomad diamond superfood and it's a great anti-fungal.  You can eat it and apply it topically.
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, January 29, 2008, 5:40am; Reply: 128
Quoted from karen
Have you been using coconut oil?  It's a Nomad diamond superfood and it's a great anti-fungal.  You can eat it and apply it topically.


I haven't.  As a Nomad, I'm allowed the "virgin" coconut oil, but I don't even think I've ever seen such a thing (the "commercial" coconut oil is a toxin!).  Other than the little spot of athlete's foot mentioned above and a little spot on the back of my left ear, I have great skin, so I haven't sought out coconut oil for topical use.

Quoted from karen
Hey drive55, glad to hear you are noticing improvements since starting the diet.  Candida/fungal can be a major cause of depression and mood swings and it can be very hard to cure.  I hope you stick with the diet because it's obvious it's working for you.


Sooooo true!  I weaned myself off the wellbutrin and prozac right before starting the diet, and I feel better now than I did on them (or when I was on paxil, remeron, ritalin, or dexadrine).  I have been sleeping 8-10 hours a night, but at least I feel human when I get out of bed!  I'm just so sad that this knowledge of nutrition is more widely accepted.  I know so many people could improve their lives 100% if they'd follow it.  Even sadder though is when people do know about it but are too proud or stubborn to try it out :(...I would have been in that category a couple of years ago.  There is really no such thing as coincidence: knowledge of the BTD came to me just as I was finally ready to accept the idea of making big dietary changes to get the results I wanted.  The timing was perfect. ;D
Posted by: Whimsical, Tuesday, January 29, 2008, 12:16pm; Reply: 129
All the coconut oil I've ever seen has been "Extra Virgin", but then again, I work at a health food store.  I would assume you could find it at one.
Posted by: 521 (Guest), Tuesday, January 29, 2008, 1:23pm; Reply: 130
drive,

To my understanding, yeast, fungus, and mold are all various forms of the same pathogen.  And they thrive on sugar and carbs.

as a nonnie, you have to keep your carb intake low, because that's just adding fuel to the fire.  As a nonnie, your body doesn't use as many carbs as a regular secretor, so the extra carbs just stick around and do things like feed yeast colonies.  I would also imagine that they overactivate your nervous system and perhaps cause irritability and anxiety.  Also, you may crave more water in order to dilute the sugars.

If you pay close attention, you may notice that your feet and other extremities itch more after you've had a high sugar/carb meal.  whenever I have that happen to me, I take green tea, maitake mushroom, and yeast cleanse supplements, to lower my blood sugar and beat back the yeast.
Posted by: Lola, Tuesday, January 29, 2008, 4:37pm; Reply: 131
fenugreek I believe help lower blood sugar, right?
Posted by: Squirrel, Tuesday, January 29, 2008, 4:59pm; Reply: 132
My naturopath prescribed me Oregano (Oregaresp/Oregacyn) capsules for candida overgrowth last year, along with the BTD. They were a little cheaper than Yeast Cleanse, and do the same thing. As I mentioned on another thread, I still take them along with the Deflect if I have any sugar. They make my burps taste wonderful!! (OK sorry, too much info there...  :B)
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, January 29, 2008, 5:42pm; Reply: 133
Unfortunately, purchasing any more supplements isn't feasible atm.  My cash is running low again.  I picked up some side work that has tided me over (barely), but at least now, I'm feeling up to the challenge of working again, at least part-time.

I have been trying to taper off the carbs for a few days, and once I've finished what I have I'll stay away from buying more.  Farewell, beloved rice, sweetened yogurt, and fruit... :'(.

Now, off to find me a job!  I feel like I've been saying that for months, but maybe it will actually happen this time. ;)
Posted by: Lola, Tuesday, January 29, 2008, 5:54pm; Reply: 134
let food be your medicine! ;)
Posted by: Squirrel, Wednesday, January 30, 2008, 2:04am; Reply: 135
Absolutely so. Oregaresp is only concentrated oregano, which is a staple in my kitchen. Just pile it on and enjoy.
Posted by: JJR, Thursday, March 20, 2008, 12:54am; Reply: 136
I had a bad problem with a yeast/ candida overgrowth over last summer.  It was really bad.  My head felt weird all the time.  Like spacey.  I don't know how to explain it.  I was not all there.  Now, I at least have days where I'm almost all there and some where I'm just fatigued.  But that head thing was enough to drive you nuts.  I felt like I needed to crack my neck and make the nerves start working again.  Or something like that. I took, a mix from my ND with bentonite, capryl oil, psyllium powder, and a probiotic.  I see there is a protocol on the Diet that I didn't know of back then.  Maybe you could try and get some of those things as time goes on.  But I can tell you this, if you had a problem with it, it was a big reason why you weren't feeling good.  I had too many antibiotics in a short time due to H.Pylori and then dental problems.  I'm sure that's why it took over.  At least now you know to look for it.  I just looked at my tongue too and noticed that it's better than it used to be.  Thank you!
Posted by: TJ, Friday, March 21, 2008, 2:57am; Reply: 137
Yeah, I watch my tongue too.  I think it's an effective gauge.  Lately, I've been indulging in a bit of sugar, and it's showing.  Fortunately, I finished up the ice cream, and I can't afford more right now, so if I'm tempted again I won't be able to cave in!  Ice cream really is my only weakness.  I'm lucky in that respect; many people have big addictions to many foods.
Posted by: Mrs T O+, Friday, March 21, 2008, 7:32pm; Reply: 138
I haven't had ice cream in 20+ years, but I do admit it is very addictive. I've never taken street drugs, but if you can have ice cream, who needs cocaine??  :)

Mrs "T"    O+  [dairy free & life is easier because of it!]
Posted by: TJ, Friday, March 21, 2008, 7:42pm; Reply: 139
Quoted from Mrs T O+
I haven't had ice cream in 20+ years, but I do admit it is very addictive. I've never taken street drugs, but if you can have ice cream, who needs cocaine??  :)


So true!  Especially CHOCOLATE ice cream!
Posted by: JJR, Friday, March 21, 2008, 10:34pm; Reply: 140
Spoken like a true Chi-Town resident.  Just kidding.  I don't know what the on has to do with the other besides that it's a huge metropolitan area.  I've never even seen cocaine.  Us hicks up in Milwaukee just drink beer like it comes from the river.  :K)
Posted by: focused, Saturday, March 22, 2008, 1:57am; Reply: 141
Quoted from Mrs T O+
I haven't had ice cream in 20+ years, but I do admit it is very addictive. I've never taken street drugs, but if you can have ice cream, who needs cocaine??  :)

Mrs "T"    O+  [dairy free & life is easier because of it!]


AMEN, sister !! Haven't had any for months and don't miss it any more. But if I ever slip and get off this diet I know I will be hooked again.
Posted by: TJ, Saturday, March 22, 2008, 3:25pm; Reply: 142
I picked the wrong week to quit ice cream, again.  All the grocery store sales papers had my Breyer's ice cream on sale!   :'(
Posted by: focused, Saturday, March 22, 2008, 8:48pm; Reply: 143
Quoted from TJ
I picked the wrong week to quit ice cream, again.  All the grocery store sales papers had my Breyer's ice cream on sale!   :'(


I just love Breyers vanilla with the litte specs if vanilla bean in it. In the past would never eat any other brand. Since GTD, I don't even go down the ice cream aisle just to be sure I won't be tempted, especially if it was on sale. What is it about ice cream that is so wonderful? and that sets up such a craving? ??)

Posted by: JJR, Saturday, March 22, 2008, 10:20pm; Reply: 144
It tastes great, that's why.  I like it too!!!!!
Posted by: Mrs T O+, Sunday, March 23, 2008, 2:48am; Reply: 145
Sometimes when you decide to quit something, the temptation appears worse than normal!!
Please resisit the temptation & let someone else who can't afford it enjoy the treat - preferably someone not addictive!!

S S & L,
Mrs "T"   O+  
Posted by: Lola, Sunday, March 23, 2008, 3:20am; Reply: 146
Quoted Text
What is it about ice cream that is so wonderful? and that sets up such a craving?

the instant reward....forgetting the consequences.....those remain in a blur until you indulge! ;)
Posted by: TJ, Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 3:45pm; Reply: 147
Ah yes, "ice crack"!

To change the subject, I've rearranged my diet yet again.  For a while now, I've been doing a very restrictive combo of the B-nonnie diet and the Nomad diet, thus: if the food is a toxin or avoid, I considered it an avoid; of the remaining foods, if it is an occasional on the GTD I considered it an occasional; of the remaining foods, if it is a superfood/diamond or beneficial, I considered it a beneficial; and everything left was neutral.

That made for quite a large "avoid" list.  Unfortunately, it stole away my beloved cottage cheese (somewhat) among other things.  Keep in mind, I tested with a strong preference for the BTD over GTD, and since GTD is strongly focused on weight loss, AND since I'm actually hoping to gain back some of the weight I've lost, I figured another change was in order.  So my new diet plan is simply the B-nonnie diet (again), only I've added BTD neutrals that are GTD superfoods/diamonds to the beneficial list, and all things gluten to the avoid list.

GTD isn't really the thing for me, but I still have to be thankful for it, because it caused me to discover my gluten intolerance!
Posted by: Lola, Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 8:39pm; Reply: 148
now that is a great lesson to have learned no matter what! :)
Posted by: JJR, Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 11:56pm; Reply: 149
I haven't even cracked the book yet.  I wanna figure out my secretor status first.  Then I'm going to a new doctor on monday who is a blood type advocate but they're not on the GTD yet, I don't think.  So, I'll read it, but I'm going to take it slow.  I'm still trying to get over the c**p I have.  But, I'm doubling my effort to stick to the diet more closely.  I used to go off the reservation on weekends and have ice cream and other stuff.  I'm going to try and limit my sweet tooth to his wonderful bars for now.  Or fruit.  That's neutral or beneficial of course.  So  what I'm saying is I can relate.
Posted by: Ribbit, Wednesday, March 26, 2008, 10:49pm; Reply: 150
Quoted from JJR
reservation


Reservation?

Re: ice cream.  If you've watched "Supersize Me" carefully, you will remember that one of the doctors the guy saw talked about the addictive properties in dairy.  It's not just the sugar.  It's not just that it tastes nice.  It's actually addictive.  Do a google search and see what you come up with.
Posted by: JJR, Thursday, March 27, 2008, 1:44am; Reply: 151
Sorry about my word screw up, to whoever had to modify it.  I didn't think that would be considered a swear but I'm a little goofy at times.

"Reservation".  Probably another goofy saying of mine.  I wasn't sticking so strictly to the diet on weekends.  That's what I meant by "going off the reservation".  It's probably midwest farmer talk or something.  Well, it's actually probably kind of disrespectful somewhat to a certain type of person but I don't mean it that way.  I guess old sayings are kind of like that.  I apologize.
Posted by: Ribbit, Thursday, March 27, 2008, 2:44am; Reply: 152
Oh, kind of like the bumper sticker my sister used to have on her car:  it was a Dixie flag and it said, "Welcome to the South.  Now go home."  It wasn't that she was being mean, it was just regionally funny.  I understand the "reservation" part now.  Never heard it.  We would say, "I fell off the wagon."  Or "I fell off the train."
Posted by: JJR, Thursday, March 27, 2008, 6:30pm; Reply: 153
Well, I sometimes say things that would be considered crude in mixed company and I'm not very well bread that way.  My ancestry is basically a bunch of farmers and certain things whether they be good or bad sometimes stick.  I'll try and do better.  I've seen people much more crude than I though.  hehehehhehehhehehhehe.  I guess sometimes I don't even realize it.  Did you're Mom ever get mad at you and read you the riot act and then at the end of it say ,"Now put that in your pipe and smoke it!!!!!".  Well, my Mom said that alot.  And she'd probably give me a slap for admitting it on a public forum.  Hehhehehhehehehehhe.
Posted by: Ribbit, Friday, March 28, 2008, 1:01pm; Reply: 154
I don't know if this is typical of ABs, but the ones I know aren't known for being subtle. :-/ ;)
Posted by: TJ, Friday, March 28, 2008, 1:04pm; Reply: 155
Quoted from Ribbit
I don't know if this is typical of ABs, but the ones I know aren't known for being subtle. :-/ ;)


One of the kids, perhaps? ;D
Posted by: Ribbit, Friday, March 28, 2008, 1:22pm; Reply: 156
:oPerhaps.  And she, among others.
Posted by: JJR, Friday, March 28, 2008, 1:59pm; Reply: 157
I think I definitely fall into the "complex" category.  As Dr. D says about it in his book.  Isn't that what he said?  Modern and complex?  I fit alot of these descriptions about nonnies too, but I don't know yet.  If I'm an AB non secretor that will put me in such a small percentage of people that it's mind boggling.
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