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BTD Forums  /  Eat Right 4 Your Type  /  Fermented Veggies
Posted by: Scamp, Tuesday, July 17, 2007, 1:37pm
Well, I have returned from my trip to the Netherlands, and returned to eating my new experiment of fermented veges.  I'm hesitant to get too excited, but my digestion sure seems better!  I have been eating about 1/3 cup with every meal as recommended in "The Body Ecology Diet".  (Okay, they say at least 1/2 cup, but I'm trying!  It is a bit challenging to have pickled veges on pancakes for breakfast, but I just did.)  I had tested positive for candida before my trip.

So a friend asked what Dr. D had to say about fermented food.  I looked it up in "Live Right" and found a couple of pages on the topic, starting on page 193, directed toward Type A.  I remembered reading it some years ago, but did not know how to proceed culturing veges.  

My third batch is fermenting now, and I'm about to get another one started.  However, I have some beets to use up, and wonder if a red batch would be, well, visually edible?  Has anyone done a batch including beets?
Posted by: 476 (Guest), Tuesday, July 17, 2007, 4:06pm; Reply: 1
No I have never used beets. But Koreans eat fermented veggies with every meal too they call it Kim Chi. Its really quite tasty when you get the right spice  combo, try lots of garlic and ginger.
Posted by: apositive, Tuesday, July 17, 2007, 4:19pm; Reply: 2
Scamp, don't get down on yourself about eating less than 1/2 cup.  Start slowly is the recommendation I hear most often, to let your system get used to the change.

One writer in the early part of the 20th century (Howell, I think his name was) thought increasing enzymes was the answer to just about every health problem.  Now he was mostly recommending more raw fresh veggies and fruits, but fermented foods accomplish the same thing.

I tried a batch of beets last year  that did not turn out to well, but I'm going to try again.  (I LOVE beets!)
Posted by: Colleen, Tuesday, July 17, 2007, 4:34pm; Reply: 3
I've not read those pages in Dr. D's Live Right book, so thanks for the heads up on where to find the info.  Hmmm, but you say it's directed toward A's.  I sometimes eat store bought fermented veggies and want to try making my own.  The ones I buy have been made without anything harmful added.  I found them a little tough to eat and I guess that's why I didn't get into making my own.  I will have to dig back into that jar and start eating them 3x a day.
Posted by: OSuzanna, Wednesday, July 18, 2007, 12:03am; Reply: 4
You guys can have my beets, glad they won't go to waste ;)
Posted by: Drea, Wednesday, July 18, 2007, 1:10am; Reply: 5
One of my favorite dishes used to be balsamic roasted beets; now I just eat them plain. Fermented beets might be good, too.
Posted by: Henriette Bsec, Wednesday, July 18, 2007, 8:30am; Reply: 6
Fermented ginger/carrots are really good
- Havn´t tried beet - but was planning to try them this autumn when my beets are ready- I have sown:
yellow, small round dark black beets and a more normal one.
Posted by: Victoria, Wednesday, July 18, 2007, 8:31pm; Reply: 7
We ate lots of pickled beets when I was a kid.  They were the traditional vinegar pickled beets, so it is not the same thing, but the basic idea is sound, I believe.  They were a beautiful burgundy color and richly flavored.

I would think that better results would come from young, smaller beets.
Posted by: Scamp, Thursday, July 19, 2007, 3:54am; Reply: 8
Well, I have prepared two batches of vegetables to ferment, both including beets.  For anyone experienced at fermenting I have a couple of questions:

1) There seems to be two ways of packing the jars.  One is to put cabbage leaves on the top to fill the air space, the other is to put a plate with a weight on it on top.  I have been using jars with clamp lids, and do not use cabbage as I am Type A.  So, I have just left empty space at the top and tossed out any brown looking veges on top when fermentation is done.  Anybody have a better way of handling this?

2) My second question is that it seems that air spaces develop in the jar during fermentation.  As I am not using a weight on top, should I open the jar and manually press down the contents during fermentation, or just leave the air pockets?

Thanks for any insights!
Posted by: Henriette Bsec, Thursday, July 19, 2007, 7:26am; Reply: 9
Scamp I have never made so large servings that I needed to store it for a longer period so I don´t know if it matters.

I use a sterile flot stone (boiled)  that fits my glass jar to keep my carrots down- before I put the lid on.
If I have used a large jar I have used small plates that fitted into the jar as well.
I think it is pretty important that the veggies tsay under the brine- to avoid bacterias.

Quoted Text
We ate lots of pickled beets when I was a kid.  They were the traditional vinegar pickled beets, so it is not the same thing, but the basic idea is sound, I believe.  They were a beautiful burgundy color and richly flavored.

I would think that better results would come from young, smaller beets.

Victoria I still make theese with cidervinegar and sugar- dill and horseradish to keep bacterias away- yummit with meat :-D
- But I was thinking to try them the oldfashioned way without vinegar.
Posted by: apositive, Thursday, July 19, 2007, 1:38pm; Reply: 10
Quoted from Scamp
One is to put cabbage leaves on the top to fill the air space


Scamp, I have never heard this one; I always heard that some (about an inch in a quart jar) air space must be left empty.  What you are doing now is fine, or get a stone or other weight as Henriette recommended.

Quoted from Scamp
2) My second question is that it seems that air spaces develop in the jar during fermentation.  As I am not using a weight on top, should I open the jar and manually press down the contents during fermentation, or just leave the air pockets?


You mean kind of like the carbonation you see in soda pop?  In any event, I have opened the jars to release air/gas/whatever it is and I have left them . . . don't think it has made any difference.
Posted by: ruthie, Thursday, July 19, 2007, 3:33pm; Reply: 11
Well I did something wrong.  My first attempt at fermenting was a bust.  Mine merely rotted.
So I am getting some good answers here.  I did not seal mine in a jar.  I will try that next with a rock on top and air space.
How much salt per jar?
Would someone please chime in...
namaste
ruthie
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, July 19, 2007, 3:42pm; Reply: 12
someone posted these instructions a while back.......
Quoted Text
fermented veggies
kimchi
made out of radish or any kind of vegetable
that is beneficial or neutral for you. Mixed
with salt, raw garlic, ginger, green onion,
and hot pepper flakes if you can do them. Mix
them together and put in a clean jar, remember to push the veggies down to eliminate as much air as possible, in the fridge and in a couple of days to a week it will start to ferment and taste great. I like it young and not so sour but you can keep it for about a month, or longer in the refrigerator. I have made lots of very good kimChi and its really easy. I am now planning on making a kimchi with just beneficial veggies like kale, kohlrabi, swiss chard, and broccoli

all the liquid that forms is from the
vegetables them selves. I usually start by
bathing the veg in a salty brine about like
sea water, then drain and add the spices and
usually it doesn't quite have enough salt so I
add some more before putting in a jar. You
want to make sure there is enough salt to
preserve the veg. When it starts fermenting
the veg releases some of the water contained
within because of the salt and that liquid
will fill any leftover air pockets. If you
don't provide enough salt in the beginning then
the kimChi will taste flat and tasteless.
Posted by: ruthie, Thursday, July 19, 2007, 4:07pm; Reply: 13
Thanks Lola...I guess the amount of salt depends on your tast buds.
namaste
ruthie
Posted by: apositive, Thursday, July 19, 2007, 5:15pm; Reply: 14
ruthie, Don't get discouraged.  Many first efforts don't work for some reason, mine included.

The general purpose recipe I use is to put four tablespoons of salt (good salt) in a sterilized quart jar (make sure everything you are using - knives, cutting board, etc. - is VERY clean); add spices and other flavours; then pack the jar tightly with your primary vegetable(s) leaving a one inch space at the top; cover with water (best water you can come up with) again leaving a one inch space at the top.  Leave at room temperature (hopefully around 75 degree F) for two to three days.  You will see bubbling begin.  Transfer to cold storage or refridgerator.
Posted by: Scamp, Thursday, July 19, 2007, 8:24pm; Reply: 15
Hmmm, do I just go outside, maybe in the river bed, and find a rock that fits inside my jar?  It sounds, well, not quite right to put a rock in my food!  Does it matter what kind of rock?  I guess that might work because you could still clamp the jar shut.  I have to talk myself into this part!

Another question, does it matter if the fermenting jar is left on the counter in the light, or does it need to be in the dark, maybe wrapped with a dark cloth?

ruthie, I have a batch we are going to taste tonight that looks rotted.  I have been using a culture starter, but in this batch I just tried using salt, and probably not enough.  

My kitchen is starting to look like a laboratory!
Posted by: apositive, Thursday, July 19, 2007, 8:33pm; Reply: 16
I cover the jars . . . I seem  to recall reading somewhere that that was better.
Posted by: ruthie, Thursday, July 19, 2007, 9:28pm; Reply: 17
I will use 4T salt and put mine in the pantry which is dark...heres hoping!!
namaste
ruthie
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, July 19, 2007, 9:41pm; Reply: 18
apositive,
your instructions sound very easy to follow! thanks!
Posted by: Henriette Bsec, Friday, July 20, 2007, 6:23am; Reply: 19
Rocks: well I have used granite- but I don´t think you have got this rock in US...
I wouldn´t use a soft stone with lots of lime- due to the acid inviroment.

do you have an oldfashioned teacup or a small bowl- that might fit into the glass- that could put pressure on the veggies to keep them down.
Posted by: ISA-MANUELA (Guest), Saturday, July 21, 2007, 2:57pm; Reply: 20
::)  no fermented thingies for me......get the same feeling and results as for sourkraut :P :P :P...very bääääää .......:-/
Posted by: apositive, Saturday, July 21, 2007, 8:17pm; Reply: 21
lola, it really is quite easy . . . just take a little organization (which is NOT my strong point, unfortunately).
Posted by: Lola, Sunday, July 22, 2007, 2:50am; Reply: 22
;)
Posted by: Scamp, Sunday, July 22, 2007, 4:30pm; Reply: 23
Well, surprise!  The batch I made with salt that I thought was no good, turned out just fine!!  However, I prefer the batch made with the culture starter as it is not so salty.  I like the salty batch on pasta or veges that need salt anyway.

I just returned from a garage sale where I purchased my first crock.  So I will try Henriette's suggestion of a teacup or bowl that will fit into to top of the crock to weight down the veges.  

I am continuing to eat 1/3 to 1/2 cup of my fermented veges at each meal.  I cannot believe how much better I am doing.  This is like a magic elixir for me!  Plus, it is less expensive than a lot of enzymes and acidophilus.
Posted by: Lola, Sunday, July 22, 2007, 4:32pm; Reply: 24
let us know how your process turns out in your crock.
Posted by: Scamp, Sunday, July 22, 2007, 4:39pm; Reply: 25
Tomatilla I., come to California and see me, and I will give you some wonderful fermented elixir!  By then, I will be a pro at making the stuff.   :o :o :o
Posted by: Scamp, Sunday, July 22, 2007, 4:40pm; Reply: 26
Lola, I will let you know in about a week.  I am having a lot of fun with this fermenting!
Posted by: Lola, Sunday, July 22, 2007, 4:48pm; Reply: 27
thanks Scamp!

Isa, after you are done with Scamp and are full of her elixir you can fly down to me!
Posted by: 875 (Guest), Monday, July 23, 2007, 12:15am; Reply: 28
Scamp - what mixture of veggies did you use to culture this batch?  I am kinda at a loss to culture next, my last culture came out well, but I used cabbage as the main base and can't really eat it....

Can you give me the recipe of what you used??
Posted by: apositive, Monday, July 23, 2007, 1:17pm; Reply: 29
Scamp, the flavor can improve with aging, so, if a batch doesn't hit your fancy, put it in the back of the fridge for a month or so.
Posted by: Scamp, Monday, July 23, 2007, 1:51pm; Reply: 30
Elliefeldman, the vege mix that I really like included turnips, carrots, celery, parsley, and I believe some tarragon.  I don't remember the portion sizes as it doesn't seem to matter.   At first it seemed too tangy for me, but now it is my favorite so far.  Yesterday I tried my batch with beets, but it is so very sweet.  I missed that very tangy taste!  

Apositive, your suggestion of letting it age may help out my beet batch.  However, at the rate I am eating this stuff, it may not last long enough for my new batch to ripen up!

So, today I am going to make another turnip batch.  I've got some zuchinni and green beans from the garden I may toss in also.  

It's interesting, Ellie, that my first batch was also cabbage-based and I didn't eat it.  I ended up giving it to my sister, Type B, who still hasn't eaten it.  She doesn't have the digestive troubles that I have so is not so motivated to try it.
Posted by: 875 (Guest), Monday, July 23, 2007, 10:12pm; Reply: 31
Scamp - thanks for the mixture.  I too gave my batch to my mom who can eat cabbage.  I am using the "body ecology diet" culture starter.  I have serious digestive issues - I have Crohn's disease - actually I am technically in remission - but the remission came from medicine, I took myself off the meds (with drs. approval) and am keeping my Crohn's in remission with diet and probiotics at this point.  

I believe that I will attempt to make some fermented veggies with your mixtures that you recommended.  Did you only  use salt or did you use culture starter to make them?
Posted by: Scamp, Tuesday, July 24, 2007, 12:09am; Reply: 32
You are welcome, Ellie.  I too am using the "Body Ecology Diet" within the Type A ER4YT framework as I tested positive for Candida.  Digestion has been a challenge for me also.  It has been a real incentive to make this fermented stuff work!

I have made five batches now with the Body Ecology Culture and one batch with salt.  The salty batch worked okay and tastes good on pasta where I like extra salt anyway.  However, I prefer the culture-started batches as they are not salty.  And, I feel more certain they will be a friendly culture.  I need to practice some more with the salt starter.

I made two batches with beets as the main ingredient.  I thought I would really like them as they are sweeter, but I've gotten accustomed to the sourness of the turnip batch!  Today I got another turnip batch going, with lots of other stuff I found in the garden and the fridge.

Have you come across the book "Wild Fermentation?"  by Sandor Ellix Katz?  I think I first saw it mentioned on this site.  It is full of great fermenting information.
Posted by: 875 (Guest), Tuesday, July 24, 2007, 12:07pm; Reply: 33
Scamp -  have not seen the book "Wild Fermentation" anywhere, I am going to my HFS today and will look for it there.  I have heard it mentioned here and most other cultering sites.  I will attempt to make another batch soon.  I have tons of fresh veggies around here - carrots, zuchinni, herbs etc from the garden.  

Thanks for the input!!
Posted by: apositive, Tuesday, July 24, 2007, 12:55pm; Reply: 34
Quoted from elliefeldman
have not seen the book "Wild Fermentation" anywhere, I am going to my HFS today


It is available at online bookstores (amazon, barnes/nobles), if you don't find it elsewhere.
Posted by: 875 (Guest), Tuesday, July 24, 2007, 3:34pm; Reply: 35
Found the "Wild Fermentation" at my HFS today, and it was 20% off so even more of an incentive to buy it.  They are fermenting alot of different foods in this book - vegetables, yogurt, cheese, sourdogh breads, miso, tempeh and even beer and wine.  It looks like it will be an interesting read.

Posted by: 504 (Guest), Tuesday, July 24, 2007, 8:29pm; Reply: 36
Hi everyone,   I am new to all this fermented veggie stuff, but if it helps get rid of candida I will give it a go! I am missing fruit so much, but know when I do give in and eat some I get all weak and wobbly for a few days.

Am i reading right that you can cover with water but don't have to? and, how small do you cut the veggies, please, - I mean do you shred them with a grater or peeler, or slice/chop. And does anyone know if are there concerns within the BTD about the saltiness of this food?  Thanks for any help you can give
Posted by: Scamp, Tuesday, July 24, 2007, 10:07pm; Reply: 37
Hi, Vicky.  I have been using a culture starter from BodyEcology.com rather than salt as the starter.  I have one batch done with salt, but prefer the others with less salt.  Eating this fermented mix has really helped me since I also tested positive for Candida.  I believe there are instructions for fermenting on the BodyEcology.com site.  I have been using a food processor to chop up my veges.  They come out really chopped up small.  I do it this way because it is so fast.  I don't know about BTD concerns about the salt; I am just so trained to keep it low that I try to automatically.
Posted by: 875 (Guest), Tuesday, July 24, 2007, 11:26pm; Reply: 38
Vicky,

I also use a food processor to chop/shred all my veggies.  I also buy the culture to ferment the veggies.  

bodyecology.com does have instructions.  I use Mason Jars with screw top lids to put my veggies in.  I have used sliced zuchinni instead of cabbage rolled up or stacked to put on top of the veggies to hold them down, then I just put the lids on the jars and ferment them in the closet for about 7-9 days.  

Posted by: Scamp, Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 2:08am; Reply: 39
Oh!  I never thought of putting zucchini on the top of the veges!  I will have to try that next time.  Do you toss out the zucchini afterwards, or use it?

Also, I thought that Mason Jars with screw tops were to be avoided because when the mix expands, it can break the jar.  I thought I read somewhere that the clamp-type jars let air out, but not in.

This is a learning process, and I've sure learned a lot!!  I'm not very hungry tonight, so my supper is 1/3 cup fermented veges on a dab or rice, with a bit of goat cheese.  Nice!
Posted by: 504 (Guest), Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 9:41am; Reply: 40
Thanks for the help and encouragement Ellie and Scamp, going to bodyecology.com right away!
Posted by: 504 (Guest), Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 10:47am; Reply: 41
Brilliant!

Have found UK supplier of veggie culture stuff and they are posting it right out to me...now I need some jars......and lots of yummy veg......I also bought the trial size Kefir culture to try in rice or soya milk......my husband will go nuts, I am turning into a yogurt-making veggie health food nut again......with knobs on this time....I can just see his face......when we have jars of fermenting milk and vegetables all over the kitchen....
Posted by: Scamp, Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 3:42pm; Reply: 42
How funny, Vicky!  Your kitchen will look like a laboratory like mine.  Which reminds me, I am going to try doing soy milk/kefir culture.  I had forgotten about trying it with soy.  Thanks for the reminder!
Posted by: 875 (Guest), Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 4:53pm; Reply: 43
Scamp - yes, I tried sliced zuchinni's and also baby carrotts to put on top of the veggies this time, I figured I would try it and see how it works!  I will have to let you know.  

I do use the mason jars - they are what is recommended by BED in their "resource" page.  I did have some "leakage" out of the jars - I used the lids with the seals and then rings.  They didn't explode at all.  I have never heard of them exploding. :)  I have a clamp down type container (1 gallon size) but I haven't used it - I would rather use 4 mason jars with lids so that I can sample the jar as I go along - that way if I want to let the next jar sit longer I don't have to try to repack it - I would just let the next jar sit as it is.  so each jar can sit as long as I want it to. :)  I did learn the hard way when I opened my first jar ever - the liquid was like a shook soda bottle coming out all over the place.  So now I use a towel over the top to open them and also open them in the sink! :)  

Vicky - glad that you found a source for the culture!  Good luck and have fun.  
Posted by: Scamp, Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 5:20pm; Reply: 44
Hmm, that sounds like a good idea to use four quart jars rather than one large one.  I may give that a try.  

Here is something else I was wondering about.  It looks like the veges expand for awhile (maybe 2 days) then shrink down again to their original size.  When they shrink back down, is the major fermenting finished?  Would all the benefits be there, or does one get more benefits by waiting longer for further fermentation?

My last batch (large!) has settled back down and the top is starting to turn brown as it is open to the air (inside the container).  I wonder if it is too late to go put some zucchini on top of it, or if I should refrigerate it....  Or could I repack it into smaller containers with zucchini on top and leave it outside the fridge to ferment longer?

Still learning..... ;D
Posted by: Victoria, Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 7:16pm; Reply: 45
Hmmm,
I haven't checked in on this thread in a while, and it is getting interesting!  :-)  I'm wondering about the timing also, and how to tell without tasting if it is ready to start watching carefully.

I used the Body Ecology Kefir grains a few times with goat milk and it was really quite good.  Kind of like a cross between thin yogurt and champagne!  :-)
Posted by: Scamp, Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 9:32pm; Reply: 46
Okay, so I got impatient!  I went and repacked my large batch into a large jar, then put a few slices of zucchini on the top.  It tasted somewhat tangy, but I really don't know if it is "done" or not.  So, I'll give it another day or two and see what happens.  The excess that didn't fit into the jar I put in a smaller jar and put in the refrigerator.  I hope that repacking the whole thing doesn't upset the friendly bacteria!
Posted by: 552 (Guest), Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 11:06pm; Reply: 47
Did you use organic veggies?  Veggies from Wal-mart have always rotted on me.......:^(
Posted by: Scamp, Wednesday, July 25, 2007, 11:12pm; Reply: 48
Happily there are no Wal-Marts near me!  I used organic veges from my garden and from the local health food store.  
Posted by: 875 (Guest), Thursday, July 26, 2007, 1:07am; Reply: 49
same here - I use all organics fresh from the garden.  My current batch contains - yellow squash, zuchinni, carrots, turnips, onion, fresh herbs, ginger and garlic.  Everything was picked just within a day or 2 so it is fresh.  

I don't know if you can tell from looking at it, I go by the days rule - i.e. I let them ferment for at least 5 days and then taste from there.  Last time I tried one jar after 5 days and decided it seemed to "fresh" um, not fermented enough - the 2nd jar I tried after about 8 days and it was better tasting.  This time I am going to let the veggies sit for at least 7 days before tying them - I think 5-7 days is recommended in the BED book and website.  I haven't really had a chance to read my new book "wild fermentation" yet.  I hope to read through it soon though!

I
Posted by: Scamp, Thursday, July 26, 2007, 2:33am; Reply: 50
I sure wish we could exchange tastes of our little projects!

Here is a good website I just found:  http://www.wildfermentation.com  
It is by the author of "Wild Fermentation".  Lots of good reading on the topic!
Posted by: 504 (Guest), Thursday, July 26, 2007, 12:32pm; Reply: 51
I have bought as much organic veg as I can source locally (we have no garden, sadly) but some of it is not organic - turnips and courgettes(zucchini), is it worth trying to mix them, do you think, or should I play safe and make it an "organic carrot and not much else" experiment?

I have ordered a couple of books on the subject, too, and I will have a look at your link, scamp, thanks very much for that.
Posted by: Victoria, Thursday, July 26, 2007, 4:12pm; Reply: 52
I went to the website that Scamp provided, and followed a link to this website where we can purchase crocks and jars that discourage the surface mold and slime.  The crock is pretty expensive, but the glass "pickle" jar is very affordable.  The jar has an air release valve so that the lid can be closed against outside air.

CLICK
Posted by: Victoria, Thursday, July 26, 2007, 4:33pm; Reply: 53
This perspective on biodiversity within our gut is so insightful, in my opinion:

"By eating a variety of live fermented foods, you promote diversity among microbial cultures in your body. Biodiversity, increasingly recognized as critical to the survival of larger-scale ecosystems, is just as important at the micro level. Call it microbiodiversity. Your body is an ecosystem that can function most effectively when populated by diverse species of microorganisms. By fermenting foods and drinks with wild microorganisms present in your home environment, you become more interconnected with the life forces of the world around you. Your environment becomes you, as you invite the microbial populations you share the earth with to enter your diet and your intestinal ecology."
Posted by: Drea, Thursday, July 26, 2007, 6:43pm; Reply: 54
There is even talk about the gut as a second brain. I'll have to find out where I heard that; then I'll post a link.
Posted by: Drea, Thursday, July 26, 2007, 6:44pm; Reply: 55
Quoted from Victoria
The crock is pretty expensive, but the glass "pickle" jar is very affordable.  The jar has an air release valve so that the lid can be closed against outside air.

CLICK

Thanks for the link, Victoria. That pickle jar looks interesting. Just what I need! Another jar!  ;D
Posted by: 504 (Guest), Thursday, July 26, 2007, 8:21pm; Reply: 56
well, the culture has not arrived yet, but I read that using celery juice meant that no salt was needed in the brine so I have made a batch with juiced celery.  It took ages - amazing how many veggies fit into a jar when all packed down.  They look pretty tho.  Just hoping they do not rot.....3 days 'til my first taste....those jars look good, I must admit I do find the thought of scraping mould off the top of my food quite off-putting.
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, July 26, 2007, 8:26pm; Reply: 57
worth trying out!
Posted by: 875 (Guest), Thursday, July 26, 2007, 10:09pm; Reply: 58
Drea - yes the gut is your 2nd brain - my GI has told me that also I have read it in a book I have by Dr. Mehemet Oz (also I believe he said it on Oprah also...)

I am so excited about my new fermented veggies, I can't wait for them to be done!  I am impaitient. :)

Scamp - yes, too bad that we can't exchange our recipes by mail!  LOL!

Victoria - thanks for the link for the jar, it is pretty cool.  I may invest in that at some point.  It looks like the one mentioned in the "Wild Fermentation" book that I just picked up.  
Posted by: 875 (Guest), Saturday, July 28, 2007, 12:16am; Reply: 59
Another interesting book I have called "macrobiotic cooking by Aveline Kushi" has a section called "pickles" - but it is not pickling in the sense of the way we think of pickles - she refers to using veggies and sea salt in crocks/glass jars as pickles.  There are some interesting recipes in that chapter and also some ideas/ways that it is done.

I have had this cookbook for years and looked up "kim-chi" in the index and didn't find much, but lots in the "pickles" section - I would refer to the recipes more as "fermenting".

I may have to try some of those recipes once I get good at doing this!
Posted by: 504 (Guest), Saturday, July 28, 2007, 7:30pm; Reply: 60
Thanks for that pointer, Ellie I'm going to look at macrobiotic diet books in the library too!

My celery juice jars are fermenting away like crazy - one had even started to escape this morning so I had to get the top off and scoop some out! I had to taste it even though its a bit early - tasted pretty good for carrot mush thats been sitting in celery juice in a cupboard for a couple of days!

Also am attempting to make rice milk kefir - if it works I want to make 'cheese' out of it but not sure of this is possible with rice...........if anyone knows or has any advice on making kefir cheese with rice milk or soya milk please shout up.
Posted by: Drea, Saturday, July 28, 2007, 11:39pm; Reply: 61
Quoted from Vicky
Also am attempting to make rice milk kefir - if it works I want to make 'cheese' out of it but not sure of this is possible with rice...........if anyone knows or has any advice on making kefir cheese with rice milk or soya milk please shout up.

I have a book called "The Ultimate Uncheese Cookbook" by Joanne Stepaniak. I've never made anything from the book, but the recipes look interesting.
Posted by: Lola, Sunday, July 29, 2007, 4:47am; Reply: 62
I believe draining the kefir with a weight on top might work.
Posted by: 504 (Guest), Sunday, July 29, 2007, 4:37pm; Reply: 63
thanks for the help Lola and Drea - the kefir is not thick enough to strain as yet, but I'm hoping....

The uncheese book has good reviews on amazon so I might try that out too.
Posted by: Ronagon (Guest), Sunday, July 29, 2007, 9:57pm; Reply: 64
You know, these kinds of differences between types O and A truly fascinate me.  

It absolutely amazes me how you guys really are thriving on this food...
Posted by: Drea, Sunday, July 29, 2007, 10:23pm; Reply: 65
Quoted from Ronagon
You know, these kinds of differences between types O and A truly fascinate me.  

It absolutely amazes me how you guys really are thriving on this food...


It is interesting. I simply cannot digest red meat. It sits like a rock in my stomach.
Posted by: 504 (Guest), Monday, July 30, 2007, 11:52am; Reply: 66
It amazes me too, Ron-o-non!

I tried the rice milk kefir today, its obviously never going to be thick enough for cheese (not enough fat, I guess) it did taste like champagne! felt a bit decedant sipping it at 11am (took my mind off rotten earache for a minute, though!) Going to try soya next, with a view to the cheese idea.

'Wild Fermentation' has arrived, so I'll have a look at that.  Shame I have to go back to work tomorrow!!

Also, the celery fermented veggies are about ready for the fridge already, quite tangy and pleasant really also no mould - yippee!
Posted by: ruthie, Monday, July 30, 2007, 3:07pm; Reply: 67
Well I am about to throw in the towel...
Give up the ghost...

My latest batch has been sitting in the dark cupboard for 5 days, and there is not a sign of fermentation.

namaste
ruthie
Posted by: 504 (Guest), Monday, July 30, 2007, 6:46pm; Reply: 68
aw, Ruthie, sorry to hear that,

I wonder why it is not fermenting, I have read so many recipes, with or without cultures, with or without salt, with water, with juice, it would seem you can make them in so many ways.

Are they quite cold in their cupboard?   Also I did read somewhere that more salt used takes longer to ferment (also less likely to mould).
Posted by: Scamp, Monday, July 30, 2007, 11:00pm; Reply: 69
Ruthie, don't give up!  Have you tried using a culture yet?  I just returned from a weekend trip and find the batch I left sitting out is just fine.  Great, I have another week's fermented veges all ready, and now I need to get another one started for next week.

Ellie, how is you batch coming along?  Have you tasted it yet?

Your post is funny, Ron-O.  I guess many of the posters on this thread are Type A.  Yup, we need our friendly bacteria!
Posted by: ruthie, Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 12:27pm; Reply: 70
Scamp..I inquired about culture at local HFS, but they did not have any.  Since so many people seem to be having luck with salt, that is only way to try to do it.
I suppose I could order culture...but hey I barely know how to get on and off this puter.
namaste
ruthie
Posted by: 875 (Guest), Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 4:18pm; Reply: 71
Scamp - just opened up the current batch this morning - it is wonderfully tangy!  I love it - it worked so well to use the sliced zuchinni's instead of cabbage rolled on top.  My mixture is wonderful!!!!  

On some of the jars I also used carrots to hold down the mixture - those taste really good.

The carrots and zucinni's that I put on top really taste like those "Bubbies pickles" that I occasionally buy at my HFS (vinegar free).  

LOVE it!  And yes these do amazing things for my gut.  I have to admit, I would be a little afraid to do it without the culture starter though.

This type A needs an excessive amount of friendly bacteria to keep her Crohn's and Lupus in check. :)

I can't touch red meat or pork with a ten foot pole - last time a had (1) hamburger it was enough to trigger a Crohn's attack (gut was already stressed) and put me in the hospital for 5 days (over Xmas too!!)  I have NOT touched red meat since.  I cook it for my O+ daughter and that is it.  
Posted by: Drea, Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 4:21pm; Reply: 72
Quoted from elliefeldman
Scamp - just opened up the current batch this morning - it is wonderfully tangy!  I love it - it worked so well to use the sliced zuchinni's instead of cabbage rolled on top.  My mixture is wonderful!!!!  

On some of the jars I also used carrots to hold down the mixture - those taste really good.

The carrots and zucinni's that I put on top really taste like those "Bubbies pickles" that I occasionally buy at my HFS (vinegar free).


Ellie, I'd love to get a blow-by-blow recipe of how you made these last batches. I love pickles, but rarely buy them because of the price of vinegar-free varieties.
Posted by: 504 (Guest), Wednesday, August 1, 2007, 8:59pm; Reply: 73
Can I ask those that use cultures for their veggies whether you use a fresh culture each time or can you transfer some like you do for yoghurt and kefir to start off the next batch?  I am going to make a cultured batch next to see the difference in taste between the celery juice one and a cultured one.

I got some curd cheese out of my soya kefir too! It tasted a bit chalky, but mixed with garlic and fresh coriander and served with salad leaves and walnuts, was pretty good.

Ellie - your latest batch sounds wonderful!

I can't wait for my day off so I can get shredding in my kitchen!!
Posted by: Lola, Wednesday, August 1, 2007, 9:27pm; Reply: 74
did you first make the soy milk and then added the kefir?
or did you use commercial soy milk?
or how did you use the soy for your kefir cheese?
Posted by: 504 (Guest), Thursday, August 2, 2007, 4:16pm; Reply: 75
Hi Lola,

I used unsweetened commercial soy milk (the longlife one) added the kefir culture at room temp, shook up in glass jars and left it for a few days until 'separated' - I think it took about 3 days. Then strained with a sieve and muslin and a weight on top, like you suggested, over a bowl in the fridge for another day, and that was it. It's supposed to keep for about 5 days now, I believe.
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, August 2, 2007, 4:19pm; Reply: 76
right.....
Posted by: 875 (Guest), Thursday, August 2, 2007, 11:58pm; Reply: 77
Drea - here is what I do:

1.  Warm up 1 cup of water (filtered) to 90 degrees, add 2 tbls. suger (of some form - honey is what I usually use) and add (1) packet of Body Ecology Culture for veggies.  Let this sit for at least 20 minutes (I do this first because by the time I have gotten everything else ready it has been about 30 minutes or more that it is sitting.)

2. wash all the veggies I am going to use (yellow squash, green zuchinni, turnips, carrots, onion-vidalia, garlic, 2" piece of ginger, couple of handfuls of fresh herbs - cilantro, parsley, dill and basil.

3.  chop up the onion, ginger, garlic and herbs in food processor with blade.

4.  shred the rest of the veggies with food processor shredding blade.

5.  Mix all together well in a LARGE bowl.  I then take 2 cups of this mixture put it into the blender with about 1 cup filtered water and the cup of water with the culture/suger in it.  I blend all this together to make a "brine", sometimes I need to add a bit more water to this "brine".

6.  Add the "brine" back to the rest of the shredded veggies.  Mix together well.

7.  Get my 3-4 wide mouth mason jars ready (these have already been scalded clean in the diswasher) with the sealing lids and rings.

8.  I fill up the jars with the veggies - pushing them down  as I put the mixture in each jar as much as I can.  You can really stuff ALOT in the jars - I leave approx. 2 inches of space on top of each jar.  I then put sliced zuchinni to fill in that 2 inches - pushing down gently as I put each slice on to I get to the top and can't stuff anymore in the jar.  Put the sealed lid and ring on - screw on as tight as possible.  Fill each jar up until you are out of the veggies.

9.  I then put the jars in a huge stock pot that they all fit into - put a towel in the bottom/sides so that when they leak out the towel soaks the juice up.  I put this pot with the jars into my pantry closet on the floor.  This closet is dark pretty much all the time and my house temp is usually about 74-76.  I always leave the jars sit for 7 days before I try them.  I try one at a time and then when they are good I put them in the fridge to keep them from getting fermented too much more.  I don't touch them until I am ready to try them and put them away.  They seem to be best not moved until ready or else they tend to bubble out!

Hopefully this will help and I didn't forget anything!

I have never used anything but culture to make the veggies and I always start with a fresh packet of culture never used "previous mixture" to start a batch.  I don't think it would work the same way yougurt and kefir are made.
Posted by: Lola, Friday, August 3, 2007, 12:03am; Reply: 78
I wonder if adding probiotic powder would ferment the veggies just as well?
Posted by: 875 (Guest), Friday, August 3, 2007, 12:57am; Reply: 79
Lola - I have often wondered the same thing, but I am not sure.  I will have to read the ingredients in the veggie culture and see what is in it.  
Posted by: Lola, Friday, August 3, 2007, 1:25am; Reply: 80
I was told that adding a probiotic from NAP into your soy or whatever milk does turn it into yogurt....
so perhaps doing some trials with a probiotic capsule or two might work to ferment those veggies!
thanks Ellie for your recipe!
Quoted Text
A+ Secretor
Married to Type A (pretty sure)
Daughter O+

if not so sure, just pretty......he might just happen to be an O
if he s the father of your girl....... ;)
Posted by: 504 (Guest), Friday, August 3, 2007, 8:45am; Reply: 81
thanks for typing out your recipe, Ellie, its really helpful to have such a detailed account.
Posted by: 875 (Guest), Friday, August 3, 2007, 3:22pm; Reply: 82
Lola - yep, still not sure of what type Hubby is, we have done (1) of the "prick" tests from NAP, but he kinda screwed it up and we were not sure of what it read - looked like A, but not sure.  

We both have recessive O's in both of our parents.  He finally had a physical and I made the dr. put the blood typing on the lab order - so we will find out in another week - or whenever the dr. gets the results.

I am guessing that he may be an A, but would not be surprised if he came back an O since our daughter is an O+, it did floor us at the hospital when they told us her type was O+ when we believed we were both A's - until we did research on both sides and found recessive O's on both sides and understood how that works.

So wait I shall, until we hear, then I can start feeding him properly!  ;D
Posted by: Drea, Friday, August 3, 2007, 5:27pm; Reply: 83
Ellie, thanks for your step-by-step instructions. I've printed them out and will attempt a batch once I can find some culture...
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