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BTD Forums  /  Live Right 4 Your Type  /  Nightmare with 7 Keto Dhea
Posted by: 1495 (Guest), Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 1:55pm
Hi,
I was recently diagnosed with Adrenal Fatigue.  My doctor wanted to try me on Dhea.  I started out on 25mg daily of Dhea.  Then after about a week, he suggested I stop because I was getting unexplained breast tenderness.  So, he switched me to 7 Keto Dhea which supposedly doesn't stimulate testosterone and/or estrogen as Dhea can.  , I took the 7 Keto for 3 weeks.  

Since beginning on these supplements I have gained almost 20 pounds in LESS THAN A MONTH.  I'm not sure what to do (obviously I've stopped taking any of the drugs).  My breasts are tender even though it's not that time of the month.  I am so big that I literally have NOTHING to wear. I have to wear sweatpants every day because it's the only item of clothing I own that I can fit into now.  I am huge and my hair is falling out at the edges around my hairline.   My doctor said that the hair loss and weight gain "should" reverse.   What is scary is that I'm not even fat, I'm just huge and musclebound like a man.  

Has anyone else taken either of these supplements?
Posted by: OSuzanna, Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 2:28pm; Reply: 1
wow, glad you stopped taking those supps! maybe those big muscles should give that lunatic doctor a knuckle sandwich  -...ooooh, did I say that out loud? oops. just kidding
It's sort of like you hired a contractor to fix your roof, and he put on a backyard deck instead!!!
best of luck, I look forward to more knowledgeable responders. OS
Posted by: 1495 (Guest), Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 2:32pm; Reply: 2
Quoted from osuzanna
wow, glad you stopped taking those supps! maybe those big muscles should give that lunatic doctor a knuckle sandwich  -...ooooh, did I say that out loud? oops. just kidding
It's sort of like you hired a contractor to fix your roof, and he put on a backyard deck instead!!!
best of luck, I look forward to more knowledgeable responders. OS


LOL!!!  Every time I look at myself in the mirror I start to laugh.  I look sooooo different.  I used to be all willowy and feminine looking.  Look at me now!!!  If I still look like this a year from now, maybe I won't find it so amusing!

Posted by: Debra+, Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 2:45pm; Reply: 3
AfricanTypeO...Oh my...you must look so different with 20 extra pounds on you.  From your picture you had on here you look so lean.  My suggestion would be to get on some detoxing supplements and teas.  Milk thistle, stinging nettle, dandelion, green tea and lots of water to help flush out the medication you just took.  Eat compliantly...don't forget your oils and get out and get lots of exercise to help get the stress from this medication out of your system.  Good luck and let us know how you are doing.

Debra :)

P.S.  I was wondering why you haven't been posting too much lately?  ;);)
Posted by: 1495 (Guest), Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 3:01pm; Reply: 4
Quoted from debra
AfricanTypeO...Oh my...you must look so different with 20 extra pounds on you.  From your picture you had on here you look so lean.  My suggestion would be to get on some detoxing supplements and teas.  Milk thistle, stinging nettle, dandelion, green tea and lots of water to help flush out the medication you just took.  Eat compliantly...don't forget your oils and get out and get lots of exercise to help get the stress from this medication out of your system.  Good luck and let us know how you are doing.

Debra :)

P.S.  I was wondering why you haven't been posting too much lately?  ;);)


Thanks Debra.  I've been drinking a lot of dandelion tea.  I guess instinctively I knew it was a good idea.  I think I may start taking spinning classes at the gym, which means I'll need to renew my gym membership.   The only good thing about this is that my breasts are now HUGE.  I think I'm like a 36 DD.  On New Years Eve I squeezed myself into one of the little size 6 dresses that *used* to fit me fine pre-dhea and it was so tight that my breasts actually burst out three times during the evening.  The guy sitting along from me at the bar got quite an eyeful.  ROFLMAO!!!

Posted by: Laura P, Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 3:28pm; Reply: 5
What type of Dr. is this?  I would guess it has something to do with the Thyroid, I don't think DHEA would be a good supplement since in the case of adrenal fatigue the person is going to have some thyroid issues regardless, maybe a T3-T4 conversion thing

This is one of those supplements that all is known about it is based on petri dish studies that have been poorly preformed, anything can happen it a petri dish, there have been very few human trials
Posted by: 1495 (Guest), Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 3:36pm; Reply: 6
Quoted from lkpetrolino
What type of Dr. is this?  I would guess it has something to do with the Thyroid, I don't think DHEA would be a good supplement since in the case of adrenal fatigue the person is going to have some thyroid issues regardless, maybe a T3-T4 conversion thing

This is one of those supplements that all is known about it is based on petri dish studies that have been poorly preformed, anything can happen it a petri dish, there have been very few human trials



This is the doctor

http://www.majidali.com


My thyroid has been tested.  I'm actually hyperthyroid.  Not severely so, but everything is slightly off the charts.
Posted by: Don, Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 3:41pm; Reply: 7
I am really surprised that the doctor started you on hormone supplementation instead of trying gentler supplementation and lifestyle changes first.

In a situation like this where you want to try hormone supplementation women are better off trying pregnenolone or pregesterone instead of DHEA. DHEA is considered OK to use for men, but can use pregnenolone too.
Posted by: Laura P, Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 3:44pm; Reply: 8
What is he a DR of a celebrity, way too much hype, no wonder he used I 'hype' supplement.  I want to think about this, this reaction is interesting, yeah I would have guessed hyperthyroid, that makes sense
Posted by: 1495 (Guest), Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 3:50pm; Reply: 9
Quoted from lkpetrolino
yeah I would have guessed hyperthyroid, that makes sense


really?  Doesn't hyperthyroid make you thin?

Posted by: Don, Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 3:53pm; Reply: 10
Certainly the combination of adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism is common, not hyperthyroidism.
Posted by: 1495 (Guest), Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 3:56pm; Reply: 11
Quoted from ironwood55
Certainly the combination of adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism is common, not hyperthyroidism.


My sister's hyperthyroid (but somehow also overweight).  The hyperthyroid may run in my family, I guess.

Posted by: italybound, Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 4:18pm; Reply: 12
ATO, may I ask, how were you diagnosed w/ adrenal fatigue? What tests were done?
Posted by: 1495 (Guest), Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 4:20pm; Reply: 13
Quoted from pkarmeier
ATO, may I ask, how were you diagnosed w/ adrenal fatigue? What tests were done?


He just diagnosed me from taking a history and questioning me.  He punched me on some trigger points and said I also had Fibromyalgia.  The tests he ran were Thyroid Panel, Female Hormones, Mold Allergy and that's about it.

Posted by: ISA-MANUELA (Guest), Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 4:23pm; Reply: 14
ooo weeew thanks African Type O, someone of this forum told us once that 7 Keto DHEA seem to be much gentler for women than the normal DHEA; I wrote once about a co-worker who took this and
she lost a huge amount of Kilos whithin weeks and became also more maskuline ::) and I thought it was about that she took it, instead of getting off her menopausal thingies. Fine to know that it might be better for both, male and femal to stay on normal DHEA, if not I'll be decapitated immediately when some of my female clients take only 1/2 of a gram ; :D ;D .....
thanx again :D
Posted by: 1495 (Guest), Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 4:30pm; Reply: 15
Quoted from ISA-MANUELA
ooo weeew thanks African Type O, someone of this forum told us once that 7 Keto DHEA seem to be much gentler for women than the normal DHEA; I wrote once about a co-worker who took this and
she lost a huge amount of Kilos whithin weeks ane became also more maskuline ::) and I thought it was about that she took it, instead of getting off her menopausal thingies. Fine to know that it might be better for both, male and femal to stay on normal DHEA, if not I'll be decapitated immediately when some of my female clients take only 1/2 of a gram ; :D ;D .....
thanx again :D



I should feel lucky that I didn't grow a beard, I guess :)
Posted by: ISA-MANUELA (Guest), Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 5:06pm; Reply: 16
yup :D and me I am very glad that you'd share this, so I might take preventive measures not in recommending anymore this stuff :K) ......ooo wow and me I'd like to try this too; I can't stand it anymore ;) ;D  ;D ;D ;D  ::)
Posted by: italybound, Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 5:16pm; Reply: 17
Quoted from AfricanTypeO
He just diagnosed me from taking a history and questioning me.  He punched me on some trigger points and said I also had Fibromyalgia.  The tests he ran were Thyroid Panel, Female Hormones, Mold Allergy and that's about it.


To get a true pic of where your adrenals are, it would be suggested to run an Adrenal Stress Index Panel. This is where mine was done:
http://www.diagnostechs.com/main.htm
Go to Tests and Panels, then Adrenal Stress Index and read all the subtopics under that. In the Overview for Patients, about 2/3 of the way down, it tells what this panel tests for:
4 x Cortisol                     Helps evaluate stress response
2 x Insulin                   Helps investigate blood sugar control
DHEA                           Helps determine stress adaptation
Secretory IgA                Helps evaluate toll on immunity
17-OH Progesterone     Helps determine adrenal reserve
Gluten Antibodies       Helps identify grain intolerance

I would like to encourage you to read all of the info tho. You do need someone who actually knows how to read the results AND treat accordingly, tho. :-)
Victoria may have some info too. :-)
Posted by: Victoria, Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 8:14pm; Reply: 18
I just found this thread!  Hi guys.  With so much posting after the advent of the New Year, I'm reading constantly just to keep up with it all!  :-)

This topic is of interest to me for many reasons.  I am also dealing with adrenal fatigue.  I have found the website for drlam.com to be very informative, thanks to Italy's heads-up.  Also I am reading the book Adrenal Fatigue by Dr. James L. Wilson, which I found at my local library.  This was also recommended by Italy, and I have enjoyed it a lot.  It is easy reading, clear and user friendly.  

There are actually a lot of things we can do to balance our adrenals, and I won't try and post everyting all at once.  But as for the DHEA.  I am also taking it, under the recommendation of my gynocologist.  I did get bloodwork which showed my testosterone and DHEA both to be very low, along with my estrogen.  If I had not tested low, I would not consider taking it.  What was your level when you got your tests, ATO?

I was encouraged to take 20 mg/day, but I prefer to be very conservative.  I purchased 5 mg. capsules and took one, which gave me a speed rush.  So the next day I took 1/2 capsule (2.5 mg.).  I got a mild headache from that.  The next day, I used a light sprinkling from the capsule, about 1/2 mg. and didn't feel like it was doing anything for me.  I have settled on 1.25 mg/day and even at that low dose, I skip a day every few days.  

I am also taking Pregnenolone at from 5 mg to 10 mg/day, and also skipping a day every few days.  So I try and use the smallest amount that shows benefits for me.  You need to be careful that you don't let your hormones swing to the opposite extreme.  Try and keep to a moderate level so that you don't create more problems as you correct some.  
Posted by: ISA-MANUELA (Guest), Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 8:45pm; Reply: 19
I only use higher intake of Vit. C...thats all ;) :D for my adrenals .....
Posted by: 1495 (Guest), Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 9:17pm; Reply: 20
Quoted from Victoria
I just found this thread!  Hi guys.  With so much posting after the advent of the New Year, I'm reading constantly just to keep up with it all!  :-)

This topic is of interest to me for many reasons.  I am also dealing with adrenal fatigue.  I have found the website for drlam.com to be very informative, thanks to Italy's heads-up.  Also I am reading the book Adrenal Fatigue by Dr. James L. Wilson, which I found at my local library.  This was also recommended by Italy, and I have enjoyed it a lot.  It is easy reading, clear and user friendly.  

There are actually a lot of things we can do to balance our adrenals, and I won't try and post everyting all at once.  But as for the DHEA.  I am also taking it, under the recommendation of my gynocologist.  I did get bloodwork which showed my testosterone and DHEA both to be very low, along with my estrogen.  If I had not tested low, I would not consider taking it.  What was your level when you got your tests, ATO?

I was encouraged to take 20 mg/day, but I prefer to be very conservative.  I purchased 5 mg. capsules and took one, which gave me a speed rush.  So the next day I took 1/2 capsule (2.5 mg.).  I got a mild headache from that.  The next day, I used a light sprinkling from the capsule, about 1/2 mg. and didn't feel like it was doing anything for me.  I have settled on 1.25 mg/day and even at that low dose, I skip a day every few days.  

I am also taking Pregnenolone at from 5 mg to 10 mg/day, and also skipping a day every few days.  So I try and use the smallest amount that shows benefits for me.  You need to be careful that you don't let your hormones swing to the opposite extreme.  Try and keep to a moderate level so that you don't create more problems as you correct some.  




Can you believe he did not even check my Adrenal Hormones before prescribing this.  I asked specifically to have Adrenal function tested (and also to have some allergy testing done) and I was refused on both counts.  He advised me to take FIFTY mg daily of the dhea.  If I'd taken a conservative amount, as Victoria did, I'd probably not be having the problems I'm now having.

I had a business meeting today and I could not find anything to wear that fit my new manly body.  I have this skirt that has always been way too big for me and was in a box waiting for me to donate it to a charity shop.  Guess what?  The skirt is now tight on me! but I was able to wear it today to my meeting.   I am on my way to looking like Serena Williams in stature!!!
Posted by: Victoria, Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 9:32pm; Reply: 21
We have to closely moniter our physicians.  There is good to be had from them, but their range of knowledge is limited.
Posted by: Lola, Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 10:11pm; Reply: 22
DHEA in the encyclopedia is only for As.
an antistress agent, it says that blunts hormonal effects of stress and aging.
-----------------

dandelion is great, also guggul gum, selenium, and add iodine rich foods in your diet.
Dr Ds advice to regulate your thyroid activity, for a few weeks.

it s in the menopause book.
Posted by: 1495 (Guest), Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 11:00pm; Reply: 23
I'm curious: do any of you have any idea whether my hormones might go back to normal after this Dhea fiasco?  
Posted by: Laura P, Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 11:22pm; Reply: 24
It seems like the hormones are hanging about too long in the body, and so you are not
metabolising them.  My guess is you have some sort of Thyroid autoimmune condition and your symptoms of 'adrenal fatigue' is really a case of the thyroid slowly degrading.  I would take oral iodine with the addition of l-selenimethione Selenium, Vit d and zinc (no more than 10 mg) this should help kick it into gear to metabolise those hormones
Posted by: Lola, Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 11:23pm; Reply: 25
yes
Posted by: 1495 (Guest), Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 11:31pm; Reply: 26
Quoted from lkpetrolino
It seems like the hormones are hanging about too long in the body, and so you are not
metabolising them.  My guess is you have some sort of Thyroid autoimmune condition and your symptoms of 'adrenal fatigue' is really a case of the thyroid slowly degrading.  I would take oral iodine with the addition of l-selenimethione Selenium, Vit d and zinc (no more than 10 mg) this should help kick it into gear to metabolise those hormones


Thanks!  But the selenium and iodine might make my thyroid even more active?  The last thing I want is for my thyroid to get any more over-active!

Posted by: Whimsical, Wednesday, January 3, 2007, 11:45pm; Reply: 27
No offense to anyone posting in this thread, but in your situation I wouldn't follow advice obtained from anyone who had not examined me.  I think in your situation you should find a new (great) doctor rather than continue to try things that may make your issues worse.  In fact, if I were you, I would stop taking EVERYTHING, stick to the BTD diet, exercise gently (to avoid exacerbating the possible adrenal issues), and make sure to get lots of sleep and rest.

Get the tests that you want done and do your own research on adrenal fatigue.  It's too bad you live in NYC (no naturopathic regulation), but perhaps you can do a phone consult with Dr. D (not sure what this costs) or even pop up to see him in Conneticut?
Posted by: 1495 (Guest), Thursday, January 4, 2007, 12:28am; Reply: 28
Quoted from Whimsical
No offense to anyone posting in this thread, but in your situation I wouldn't follow advice obtained from anyone who had not examined me.  I think in your situation you should find a new (great) doctor rather than continue to try things that may make your issues worse.  In fact, if I were you, I would stop taking EVERYTHING, stick to the BTD diet, exercise gently (to avoid exacerbating the possible adrenal issues), and make sure to get lots of sleep and rest.


That's basically what I am doing.

No money for more doctors right now.   And the doctors in my health insurance network are just ridiculous.

Posted by: Debra+, Thursday, January 4, 2007, 1:07am; Reply: 29
Quoted from AfricanTypeO


Thanks Debra.  I've been drinking a lot of dandelion tea.  I guess instinctively I knew it was a good idea.  I think I may start taking spinning classes at the gym, which means I'll need to renew my gym membership.   The only good thing about this is that my breasts are now HUGE.  I think I'm like a 36 DD.  On New Years Eve I squeezed myself into one of the little size 6 dresses that *used* to fit me fine pre-dhea and it was so tight that my breasts actually burst out three times during the evening.  The guy sitting along from me at the bar got quite an eyeful.  ROFLMAO!!!

'
Me too!!!   ;D ;D    But with you...not at you. ;)

And I am with Whimsical on the visit to see Dr. D.  You are sooooo close. :D

Debra :)

Posted by: Laura P, Thursday, January 4, 2007, 1:12am; Reply: 30
Quoted from AfricanTypeO


Thanks!  But the selenium and iodine might make my thyroid even more active?  The last thing I want is for my thyroid to get any more over-active!



First I agree with Kate,

Second, your thyroid is overactive because it is not doing it's job correctly, these supps would help it do it's job correctly

Posted by: italybound, Thursday, January 4, 2007, 2:27am; Reply: 31
Quoted from lkpetrolino
My guess is you have some sort of Thyroid autoimmune condition and your symptoms of 'adrenal fatigue' is really a case of the thyroid slowly degrading.  


From what I understand, a thyroid condition is a symptom of adrenal problems. If this be correct, the adrenals should be addressed, if not first, at least with the thyroid. What were the results of your hormone panel? If I remember correctly, on another thread, it seems someone said the 'number' at which healthy thyroid results should be, has changed. I know I questioned my NP when he looked at my DH's. I still think his are low even tho they're in range. BTW, ATO, if you don't know,  ;), just because a blood test result is in range, doesn't mean it's ok. If it's at the high or low end of the range, it usually means you're heading for a problem.
I kind of agree w/ Whimsical when she suggests to stop everything but BTD (and maybe some Vit C - can't see how that would hurt) and find a new NP who knows what he's doing and not second guess. It would be one thing to try something new if you hadn't had SUCH a reaction to the DHEA.  I've heard that is not something you should try to  do on your own and apparently, this 'dr', did no better.  :'(
I feel for ya about the weight. I've put on some weight w/ my adrenal problem and it is very upsetting. However, I know it can be undone, so gotta keep my chin up.  ;D  Yours can be undone as well :-)   I'll keep mine up if you keep yours up.  ;) :)
Posted by: 1495 (Guest), Thursday, January 4, 2007, 3:21am; Reply: 32
Thanks Italybound :)

You know, the one time my adrenals seemed to be working great and I felt GREAT was about 9 months ago when I was doing a combination of the Zone Diet and the BTD.  It worked so great and I felt like a million bucks!
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, January 4, 2007, 4:42am; Reply: 33
found these explanations:
http://www.dadamo.com/forum/archivea/admin_config.pl?read=66764
http://www.dadamo.com/forum/archivea/admin_config.pl?read=67161

http://www.dadamo.com/forum/archivea/admin_config.pl?read=66703
Posted by: Don, Thursday, January 4, 2007, 1:01pm; Reply: 34
Lola, Thanks.

The second link was particularly interesting as pertaining to the original topic of this thread.
The therapeutic properties of 7-Keto DHEA are very similar to those of DHEA. The primary difference between 7-Keto DHEA and regular DHEA is that the anabolic properties of DHEA are maximized while the androgenic effects (which are problematic) are minimized with 7-Keto DHEA. There are also claims that 7-Keto DHEA is more potent in terms of therapeutic effects compared to regular DHEA:

It definitely appears that ATO's body was very receptive to the maximized anabolic effect of the 7-Keto DHEA.
Posted by: Elizabeth, Thursday, January 4, 2007, 4:31pm; Reply: 35
PLEASE send a picture!  I know it is a challenge for you to deal with this, and I only saw the (lovely) dog before, but I would really love to see what happened.  Is this how those lady body builders really make it happen?  Seriously, very good luck with this--I'm sure it will all fade away eventually.  If you are having thyroid problems, it is amazing this stuff could override it.  
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, January 4, 2007, 7:40pm; Reply: 36
yes Don, found this very interesting also......had no idea!!!
biochemistry sure is a complex matter!!
Posted by: italybound, Tuesday, January 9, 2007, 2:41am; Reply: 37
Quoted from lola
biochemistry sure is a complex matter!!


No kidding!!!  :o

ATO, mentioned your situation to my NP today, he says DHEA taken at the wrong stage of adrenal healing can actually have the opposite effect. I really hope you can find someone who really KNOWS what they are doing. I don't think I'd be brave enough to try dosing myself DHEA. It'd me my luck I'd gain another 10 or 15 lbs. :'(
My heart is w/ ya girl.  :K)
Posted by: mikeo, Tuesday, January 9, 2007, 1:47pm; Reply: 38
I would suggest a product called Moducare which helps the body produce Dhea more effortlessly and naturally...very safe and good for adrenal fatigue
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