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Posted by: Connect, Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 4:46pm
So this morning, my roommate (Type B) who knows very little about nutrition starts arguing with me about fat intake.  She, like so much of the population  has been brainwashed to believe all fat is bad.  I was trying to explain to her the difference between fats and also explaining that the body needs fat.  She just kept saying that she believed a "low fat" diet needed to be 20g of fat or less per day.  I tried explaining to her that I don't think in terms of "grams".  I think in terms of what are whole foods for my body.  She wasn't wrapping her head around it.  She kept asking, "well how many grams of fat do you think you eat a day?"  I honestly have no idea, but I told her I guessed around 60g or so a day.  She about lost it.  WHAT?  THAT IS TOO MUCH FAT!  What are you thinking etc.....  I explained that my fats were olive oil, nuts, avocado and ghee for the most part.  Still wasn't getting it.  

If you had to quantify the fat you eat in a day, what would you guess your intake is?  How can I explain this to her in a way she might get?
Posted by: Laura P, Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 5:19pm; Reply: 1
This is why I don't have a roomate.  I am jumping on a plane but I'll get back to you on this one, I'm a good arguer, It is a skill of mine
Posted by: Connect, Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 5:30pm; Reply: 2
Looking forward to hearing from you Laura.  

Can anyone else tell me approximately how much fat you eat in a day?
Posted by: 381 (Guest), Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 5:39pm; Reply: 3
I eat about 30 grams of fat a day.  If it's a day I have peanut butter, then it's closer to 40 grams.

My fat comes from the small amounts in my proteins (soy, chicken, turkey, yogurt...), olive oil, organic "margarine" (made with neutral/bennie oils), and nuts or nut butters.  It is VERY important to include good fats in the diet - they are necessary for brain function just for one example. (Yeah I know preaching to the choir here.)

Low fat diets are too restrictive in fat and ignore the important differences in types of fat. That restriveness leads to a constant feeling of hunger - leading to binge eating - which is obviously not healthy. Fat has the highest saiety factor of the micronutrients - keeps you feeling 'full' the longest.
Posted by: 381 (Guest), Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 5:41pm; Reply: 4
Here's a link to the Women's Heart Foundation with information from the AHA (American Heart Association) guidelines for healthy daily fat consumption amounts.

http://www.womensheartfoundation.org/content/Nutrition/counting_fat_grams.asp
Posted by: Red Meat Eater, Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 6:21pm; Reply: 5
I added it up on Fitday and it amounts to 60 to 70g.  It feels good.  Not too much and not too little.
Posted by: Connect, Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 11:12pm; Reply: 6
That's what feels right to me as well..
I'm trying to remember...somewhere in my history I have this memory of someone once advising 60 to 65g of fat per day.  I have no idea who or why that's in my head....but it is..........
Posted by: 381 (Guest), Tuesday, January 24, 2006, 11:56pm; Reply: 7
If it feels right, it probably is!  It's your body, you should know :)

Posted by: Connect, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 12:07am; Reply: 8
I know what feels good for me, but I was trying to help my roommate get out of her antiquated thinking about FAT!!!  She's stuck in the old mindset where the lower the fat, the better.
Posted by: 381 (Guest), Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 12:10am; Reply: 9
Connect14 - I'll email my friend who is a nutritionist/PT and see if she has some info or links to articles that can help you convince your roomie :)

In the meantime... Here's an FDA site that says to "Add foods to your diet that are high in monounsaturated fats, such olive oil, canola oil, and seafood.
Eat foods containing polyunsaturated fats found in plants and seafood. Safflower oil and corn oil are high in polyunsaturated fats. "

http://www.fda.gov/opacom/lowlit/hlyheart.html
Posted by: Lola, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 12:34am; Reply: 10
Quoted from shemch
organic "margarine" (made with neutral/bennie oils)


that s a new one!!! )
could you give us more detail, pls?
and what brand is that?

..........................
connect,
take your LRFYT book and calculate an aprox of all fats allowed for your type. (per day)

that would be more accurate, I think.


Posted by: Connect, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 12:43am; Reply: 11
Quoted from shemch
Connect14 - I'll email my friend who is a nutritionist/PT and see if she has some info or links to articles that can help you convince your roomie :)

In the meantime... Here's an FDA site that says to "Add foods to your diet that are high in monounsaturated fats, such olive oil, canola oil, and seafood.
Eat foods containing polyunsaturated fats found in plants and seafood. Safflower oil and corn oil are high in polyunsaturated fats. "

http://www.fda.gov/opacom/lowlit/hlyheart.html


Thanks for the info Sandra, but it's my understanding that polyunsaturated fats are NOT good for us?  Safflower oil, sunflower oil and corn oil aren't good....I also thought Canola wasn't the best either, but maybe I am confused?  It's been known to happen!
Posted by: Whimsical, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 1:47am; Reply: 12
Hi connect14,

At one point I did try to track this and I had at least 30g per day.  However, I have since adhered more closely to the portion/frequency guidelines and so it is probably higher.  

I don't track it anymore, because frankly I don't care!  If I stick with the guidelines Dr. D set out and use whole foods, I feel great and look great.  

To help your argument with your roommate, I was going to suggest you look at the thread on Weston A. Price, but you started that thread!  :)  So I guess you already have lots of info to guide you...
Posted by: Lloyd, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 7:36am; Reply: 13
Once upon a time I stayed on a very low fat diet for several weeks. Always under 20 gm, shooting for 10 gm. and getting there sometimes. It's not a pretty thing.

I have not counted since then, but suspect it's 60-90 most days since BTD.
Posted by: koahiatamadl, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 9:33am; Reply: 14
no idea how much fat i consume a day :)  

as to your room mate - my room mate (type O) lives of wheat, potatoes and milk with hardly any veg or fruit and hardly any protein.  she is also obese, smokes has asthma and does not take any exercise!

and what do i do - i leave her to it as she does with me.  

she knows her health is going to get worse, she is aware of my dietary choices which would also apply to her and the BTD as i have explained it all - once.  she knows where to find the books on the book shelf if she wants to have a look and she knows i'd gladly give her more information but at the moment she is not ready to take on board the message.

food is such an emotionally charged subject for so many people - in my experience it is best to let people get on with it.  just because you have seen the light it does not mean others will any time soon, no matter how much you care about them and want to help.  
 
Posted by: KimonoKat, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 10:17am; Reply: 15
Even when the messenger comes, we may not be ready to hear the message.

Posted by: Draginvry, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 12:21pm; Reply: 16
It still amazes me how people assume that fat makes you fat, just because some fad diet says so.  The irony is that fat is extremely necessary for cellular function.  Anyone on a low-fat diet is bound to get hit by the health hammer sooner or later.

It's not fat so much that makes you fat, but the WRONG fat that makes you fat.
Posted by: Henriette Bsec, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 1:00pm; Reply: 17
true! : I used to eat about 20-30 grams of fat pr day- did I loose weight ?
NO I just felt awfull - it was mainly safflor and sunflower oil ( BAD for B´s)

Today I get around 50-75 grams of fat-(my eggs, milk etc included) BUT no wrong fats for a B !
I feel good and I have started to loose weight !
If I eat low fat today I get VERY hungry, moody and after a few days a real BAD headache !
Posted by: Dr. D, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 1:00pm; Reply: 18
When Ornish got the fat content of his subjects down to very low levels, there were suicides by several of the elderly subjects.
Posted by: Henriette Bsec, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 1:03pm; Reply: 19
Quoted from admin
When Ornish got the fat content of his subjects down to very low levels, there were suicides by several of the elderly subjects.


not surpriced !
Posted by: Red Meat Eater, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 1:04pm; Reply: 20
Most people I know still think that low-fat will make them/keep them slim.  A lot of them are on low-fat diets that includes large amounts of wholewheat and rice and they aren't losing weight - instead they are gaining weight or, at best, staying the same.  The part I don't get is why they do not investigate alternatives.  If something clearly isn't working for you, why stick with it year after year?  I tried low-fat and high complex carb diets in the past as a means of staying thin.  When I noticed that far from staying thin I was actually starting to gain weight, I did my research and changed what I was eating.  It's hardly rocket science....
Posted by: Henriette Bsec, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 1:12pm; Reply: 21
Because ALL of us has been scared to beleive that ALL fats are dangerous for ALL of us......

I had this cake the other day at a friend´s house :
This is a fatfree cake from the slimming company she said:
It had  lots apartame, white whea , a bit of mayo ( made from corn oil and lots of bad chemicals), vanillIN not vanilla and a banana- it tasted like C....... I said I rather have the banana- she is a good friend :-) And told her to make a real cake once a month or fortnight in stead of a C... one every week.
Posted by: apositive, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 2:24pm; Reply: 22
30 grams is a figure that gets thrown around for weight reduction plans (not that I agree).  Even the USDA recommendation on a 2,000 calorie diet is less than 65 grams.  I'm usually up in the 50-60 gram range.

The brainwashing is unbelievable.  On another forum last week someone was asking that since sugar has no fat in it, can't they eat all the sugar they want and lose weight?  It went back and forth with people saying it was not a good idea, but they kept coming back with "well, it has no fat in it; it has no fat in it!"  I presume the person was young, but still, wouldn't they have had some kind of instruction on the quality of calories?  Though evidently they hadn't gotten to the chapter on diabetes!
Posted by: Laura P, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 2:49pm; Reply: 23
The best way to approach her depends on what her goal is, if it is weight loss:

Increasing Omega 3 and decreasing pro inflammatory carbs will inhibit the conversion of calories into body fat.  These essential fats encourage the body to burn calories as body heat and increase its sensitivity to insulin, thereby preventing storage of body fat and reducing the risk of dibetes and obestiy.  This is a process know as 'postprandial thermogenesis" which means "the generation or production of heat following a meal.  The younger we are the greater the postpradial thermogenesis........BUT this can be controlled.  When we consume food its energy can take one of two paths in the body

1) calories can be burned for production of ATP and either stored or release for energy - "oxidative phosphorylation
2) The food can go to be stored as body fat or glycogen in the liver and muscles. So basically stored energy or FAT.  The only way to unstore this energy is through a process known as thermogenesis

When we add essential fatty acids to our diet we begin to 'sensitize' or cells to insulin............through a process.........this INCREASES thermogenesis.  It basically allows our body to release fat stores


more later- segment one
Posted by: CybrtoothTigress, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 3:06pm; Reply: 24
Quoted from connect14
...  How can I explain this to her in a way she might get?


Can I ask how "fit" you both are?

Perhaps a "I know how you feel, I used to think the same way, but now I know otherwise and it's working for me."
Posted by: Connect, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 5:28pm; Reply: 25
Laura:  Very interesting.  Can't wait for part 2.

Cybertooth:  I am quite fit, whereas, she is not fit remotely.  Takes horrible care of herself.  I agree that everyone should let everyone live the way they see fit, but she is trying to start taking better care of herself and is seeking my advice.  Now, I have advice aplenty to give, but she's stuck in the old thought pattern of believing that fat makes you fat.  I start talking Omega 3s, etc...and she just goes blank.  So I tried to tell her in lay terms, but I guess people don't want to really hear what they have to do.  

They want an easy way out.  Either way, I think maybe the best path is to explain to her that the body needs fat to work.  I just need to understand that concept a bit better.  (Hoping Laura can further help me here!!)  Don't we actually need fat to burn carbs, etc?
Posted by: CybrtoothTigress, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 5:37pm; Reply: 26
I still like the "feel, felt... found" approach.  That was the only way I could get through to my mother in law.  She liked to ridicule me for my choices.

She has to WANT change.  Want it so bad she's willing to work for it.  I also believe people have been bombarded with so much crappy information, it may seem impossible that there really is something that works.

Does she recognize the difference between the two of you?  Does she see herself as healthy?  Does she see you as fit?
Posted by: 290 (Guest), Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 5:41pm; Reply: 27
Quoted from Henriette_Bsec
true! : I used to eat about 20-30 grams of fat pr day- did I loose weight ?
NO I just felt awfull - it was mainly safflor and sunflower oil ( BAD for B´s)

Today I get around 50-75 grams of fat-(my eggs, milk etc included) BUT no wrong fats for a B!   I feel good and I have started to loose weight! If I eat low fat today I get VERY hungry, moody and after a few days a real BAD headache !


It's sad that people think they have to do the fat gram counting thing, or the carb counting thing, or the protein counting thing.....  

I do not have the time nor the motivation to count fat grams or anything else anymore.  I have been on every diet there is (except JC) without long-term success....have been dieting since I was in 6th grade....now my age is an unlisted number so that should tell ya something!  Believe it or not, I was NEVER fat...just a few pounds overweight.  My entire life was a succession of diets.

Today, I am happily following BTD, and am a t-tapper.   Last week, lost 11.25 inches, and 5 pounds.  I ate plenty, and I also ate plenty of good-for-me fat in the form of olive oil with a little ghee now and then.

It's all about making a decision. :)
Posted by: Connect, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 5:54pm; Reply: 28
Quoted from vjmiyagi
I still like the "feel, felt... found" approach.  That was the only way I could get through to my mother in law.  She liked to ridicule me for my choices.

She has to WANT change.  Want it so bad she's willing to work for it.  I also believe people have been bombarded with so much crappy information, it may seem impossible that there really is something that works.

Does she recognize the difference between the two of you?  Does she see herself as healthy?  Does she see you as fit?


Well, it's one of those things where she really just wants to be thin.  Yet, she drinks daily and doesn't really exercise.  She's trying to start exercising, but she refuses to budge on the drinking.  To me, it's sort of silly to work on being healthy when you drink daily.  So, I guess I just kind of don't want to expend much energy to be honest.  I know that sounds bad, but it sometimes gets a bit much when someone seeks advice and then doesn't even attempt to follow it.
Posted by: Red Meat Eater, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 5:57pm; Reply: 29
I'd focus on yourself and forget trying to change other people.  
Posted by: CybrtoothTigress, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 6:02pm; Reply: 30
Perhaps when she ridicules you for your fat intake you may just have to ask her how it's working for her.  You may have to agree to disagree to keep the peace.
Posted by: Don, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 6:33pm; Reply: 31
Or if she is a close friend maybe just ask her to temporarily forget about she thinks about nutrition and trust you and give the BTD a fair try for 1-3 months.
Posted by: apositive, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 6:45pm; Reply: 32
Quoted from connect14
So, I guess I just kind of don't want to expend much energy to be honest.  I know that sounds bad, but it sometimes gets a bit much when someone seeks advice and then doesn't even attempt to follow it.


No, connect14, it doesn't sound bad at all.  Lots of people rant about wanting to do this and wanting to change that but somehow don't take even minor steps to do it (much less sustain them).  IMHO (using myself as a measure), there is some kind of emotion stake in what is going on and, as others have said, until someone is REALLY ready to change, it won't happen.  There is nothing you can do.  So, answer questions, offer advise when asked, and hopefully develop and immunity to the rants about fat.  
Posted by: Connect, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 7:08pm; Reply: 33
Quoted from apositive


No, connect14, it doesn't sound bad at all.  Lots of people rant about wanting to do this and wanting to change that but somehow don't take even minor steps to do it (much less sustain them).  IMHO (using myself as a measure), there is some kind of emotion stake in what is going on and, as others have said, until someone is REALLY ready to change, it won't happen.  There is nothing you can do.  So, answer questions, offer advise when asked, and hopefully develop and immunity to the rants about fat.  


Thanks apositive.  That's a good bit of advice.  I think learning the most we can about nutrition helps us in cases when people attack or ridicule.  Not that we ever have to defend our choices, but knowledge and wisdom are, indeed, power.
Posted by: 1089 (Guest), Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 7:17pm; Reply: 34
Quoted from connect14
"... I was trying to explain to her the difference between fats and also explaining that the body needs fat.  She just kept saying that she believed a "low fat" diet needed to be 20g of fat or less per day.  I tried explaining to her that I don't think in terms of "grams".  ....  I explained that my fats were olive oil, nuts, avocado and ghee for the most part.  Still wasn't getting it....

..How can I explain this to her in a way she might get?"

and then KOAHIATAMADL  wrote:  "and what do i do - i leave her to it as she does with me.  

she knows her health is going to get worse, she is aware of my dietary choices which would also apply to her and the BTD as i have explained it all - once.  she knows where to find the books on the book shelf if she wants to have a look and she knows i'd gladly give her more information but at the moment she is not ready to take on board the message.

food is such an emotionally charged subject for so many people - in my experience it is best to let people get on with it.  just because you have seen the light it does not mean others will any time soon, no matter how much you care about them and want to help. "



Hi connect14,

People can be frustrating, especially when you are actually trying to help them.  Which leaves basically two choices, one you can develop a law of the jungle attitude and simply take care of  yourself or two you can make the effort to keep your own cool, and try to give the other person at least some progress towards improving their situation.  

Which philosophy is wisest is debatable for sure.  However if  you decide you’d like to help open your  room-mates eyes, I’d start with showing her the label on any commercial food product where it lists fat types.  Ask her if she is aware that some of the fats listed there are different and worse for a person, like trans fats and saturated fats, etc..  I think once she sees that there is more to this fat thing, from an official source like the food label she’ll in time become more open  minded.  I’d end the lesson there after mentioning that  you only eat the healthy type of fats and that it makes life easier because you don’t have to be such a food accountant.  One more thing, she’s tied up her ego in her argument position that the gram thing is a sacred thing.  Therefore it’s just going to make her dig in her heels to talk about grams.  Just play up the virtues of having one less thing to worry about if you just eat the healthy kinds of fats.  (Someday if she really converts you two can figure out your proper fat ratios from all of the types of fats and their conditions, ie. not rancid.)

On the other hand, I’ve really noticed that people are creatures of habit.  Therefore the problem with winning an argument is, that 20 minutes later and even though you were irrefutable, people tend to go back to the beliefs they had previously.  This occurs out of habit, comfort with the familiar from a psychological point of view  and the trait of laziness which we all have to some degree.  

I hope you can help your room-mate and keep your own stress levels from rising.  Best of luck,  type_o.
Posted by: 1196 (Guest), Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 7:24pm; Reply: 35
The number of people I know who have severly reduced /no fat in their diets and surgeons have then relieved them of their gall bladders is eye opening!

Encourage her to educate herself on what her gall bladder needs!
Posted by: Laura P, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 7:33pm; Reply: 36
Wow Margo, that is amazing, not surprising but amazing
Posted by: Connect, Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 7:40pm; Reply: 37
Thanks for everyone's replies.
Again, I have no desire to "win" an argument.  Just want to be knowledgable when I speak about BTD and nutrition in general.  I believe the best thing we can do is set positive examples.  
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 1:28am; Reply: 38
Laura,
before you begin part II, would you name, or list all the omegas 3s and EFAs? )
what about omega 6s?
isn t a combination of both needed?
also the various pro inflammatory carbs?
that would be a great reminder......
very nice report!!

think of doing a blog on this, people would appreciate!
education is key!
Posted by: Laura P, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 1:47am; Reply: 39
Good idea Lola, ok guys I'll but it together tonight and have a 'fat' blog ready for you all tommorrow
Posted by: Lola, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 1:51am; Reply: 40
yummy!!!! lol
Posted by: resting, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 2:15am; Reply: 41
Hi Laura,

like many others, I too am very interested in part II ... but be warned because what you said in part I seems right out of Barry Sears and I take huge exception to that line of reasoning.  If you wish to increase thermogenesis now is a great time ... Spring - is for other approaches!  In winter, as Laura says: increase omega-3's (fish oils) ... this helps to liquefy marbleized (white) fat.  Add about 2g of L-carnitine and @2g of calcium pyruvate; [option: @2g of acetyl-L-carnitine can be added]  The sweat will be just-a-pouring off you in bed and during the daytime you extremities will be warm.  In winter my feet would be blue from poor circulation ... after the regime above, my feet were actually warm to the touch even in an apartment near 50F.

John
Posted by: Laura P, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 2:27am; Reply: 42
aggghhhhhhh..........John, don't compare me to Barry Sears, please.  That was just my Omega 3 speech, wait until I get to my saturated speech
Posted by: resting, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 2:37am; Reply: 43
can't wait!

hang in there,

John
Posted by: autumn, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 2:40am; Reply: 44
I just went to dr. yesterday for my annual and we had our regular fight over butter :)  She admitted that the body needed fat -- to keep organs healthy and skin supple and for brain function.  She encourages her patients to use olive oil (which I already use alot).

(Unfortunately, she won't budge on butter... and she almost had a heart attack when I suggested substituting ghee for butter LOL !)
Posted by: san j, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 3:12am; Reply: 45
Quoted from admin
When Ornish got the fat content of his subjects down to very low levels, there were suicides by several of the elderly subjects.


Note: I've recently read a piece in a mainstream magazine (December or January issue)(It was at a client's house) citing a study linking LOW cholesterol with suicide.  Autopsies of a large sample of suicides (alas: No BT stats) showed very low cholesterol in most.

Sorry I can't give you the magazine at the moment.  Google for it: It'll turn up...
Posted by: Laura P, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 4:52am; Reply: 46
Quoted from npgillis
I just went to dr. yesterday for my annual and we had our regular fight over butter :)  She admitted that the body needed fat -- to keep organs healthy and skin supple and for brain function.  She encourages her patients to use olive oil (which I already use alot).

(Unfortunately, she won't budge on butter... and she almost had a heart attack when I suggested substituting ghee for butter LOL !)


Butter is exceptionally hight in fat soluble vitamin A, D, K and E  as well as their naturally occurring cofactors that are needed to provide max benefit.  It has been found to protect joints from calcification (and teeth too I would guess Edna) and protect against hardening of arteries and cataracts.  It has antifungal and anti tumor properties. CLA, which has anticancer properties and some (disputed) studies have shown it to increase muscle mass and decrease fat.  Natural Lecithin which assistas in proper assimilation of cholesterol and other fat

Posted by: Henriette Bsec, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 10:48am; Reply: 47
Quoted from pinemeadows


It's sad that people think they have to do the fat gram counting thing, or the carb counting thing, or the protein counting thing.....  

I do not have the time nor the motivation to count fat grams or anything else


I don´t count anything - but from my PRE BTD days I knew how much I used to get- so I sat dawn and did a calculation one week and found out how much- not that I cared if it was 60 grams or 600 grams- I just feel good!.

Omega 6-Lola- If I recall right- most westerners get far too much omega 6 - It need to be balanced with the omega 3 !

Posted by: resting, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 11:53am; Reply: 48
Hi Henriette,

such a way of viewing the ratio of omega-6 and omega-3 is a common understanding these days.  But recent studies have pointed to the notion that the omega-6 EFA's are mainly for the seasons spring & summer AND tropical climates .... with autumn the plant-based omega-3's begin and fish oils (heavy with EPA and DHA of the omega-3 family) seems appropriate for winter.  This splitting is along environmental lines of heat.  While heat keeps omega-6's fluid, cold would make these oils much less so.  Enter omega-3's .... their extra unsaturated site allows them to be fluid even in cold environments ... like ocean waters for salmon and winter for us.

I have to admit though, you will have trouble finding any nutrition councilor breaking things this way ... but it does IMO make sense.

There is also a genetic variation that points to this (work of Charles Bates) .... EFA cascades seem regular enough on paper, but these get very skewed by a number of people ... towards omega-3's by folks living near polar regions for generations ... and, towards omega-6's for those who have  tropical climates as ancestral background.  The problem does occur when an exchange of environment happens.  The taking of the others oil as an accommodation measure very often does not work.  There is a genetic override that does not permit an easy entrance of Polynesians to arctic climates, even if they take fish oils.

This EFA business is a little more complicated than it appears ..................

John
Posted by: Henriette Bsec, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 12:00pm; Reply: 49
Quoted from John_McDonell_O+


This EFA business is a little more complicated than it appears ..................

John


Oh I had the feeling :-)
Posted by: 381 (Guest), Thursday, January 26, 2006, 1:27pm; Reply: 50
Quoted from lola

that s a new one!!! )
could you give us more detail, pls?
and what brand is that?


Ok for purists, this is only good for As since it has a corn product in it - but it's halfway down the list so it's unlikely there's much of it in there, might be tolerable for some...

Organic Earth Balance Whipped buttery spread
Non-GMO, Vegan, and Kosher
Non-Hydrogenated, Trans Fat Free, Non-dairy, Gluten free

Ingredients:
Expeller-pressed Natural Oil Blend (organic palm fruit, organic soybean, organic canola seed, and organic olive), filtered water, pure salt, natural flavor (derived from corn, no MSG, no alcohol, no gluten), organic crushed soybeans, organic soy lethicin, lactic acid (nondairy, derived from sugar beets), colored with beta-carotene derived from natural sources.

omega-6: 2720 mg/svg
omega-3: 340 mg/svg
Posted by: 381 (Guest), Thursday, January 26, 2006, 1:30pm; Reply: 51
Quoted from connect14


Thanks for the info Sandra, but it's my understanding that polyunsaturated fats are NOT good for us?  Safflower oil, sunflower oil and corn oil aren't good....I also thought Canola wasn't the best either, but maybe I am confused?  It's been known to happen!


Are you trying to convince her that it's important to have good fats in your diet, or do you want her to do the BTD?  I haven't heard anything in general about polyunsat being "not good" for the general public - it's just BTDers that avoid certain types of oils...

Maybe I misunderstood, I thought you just wanted to encourage her to include healthy fat in her diet, so I wasn't searching for BTD-compliant information.
Posted by: Laura P, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 1:32pm; Reply: 52
fitwitch I would be careful using this product, I don't think palm fruit is allowed for A's, soybean oil and canola seed oil are not good choices and all of these oils are probably rancid from the process.  Just my point of view
Posted by: resting, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 2:56pm; Reply: 53
Hi Connect,

too often many of us think that precision only has its place when things are very important, but for things like (chemistry in general and fats in particular) we do not have to be as precise since there is no danger here, really?  So, for most it is very important to get your extended family members names right ... and maybe some of their preferences - good for birthdays and at Christmas!.  [this same attitude usually includes friends]  .... because these folks are VERY IMPORTANT then this kind of 'knowing' is vital.  It is very uncommon to treat chemistry of fats in the same manner.

If we understood correctly that fats actually perform a myriad of functions within the body ... including provision of warmth for comfort; all mental processes ... even ALL nerve processes; provides a buffering pad with our environment ... ie. the pad of fat on a person's heal makes contact with a hard floor a bearable reality - just as the extra pad of stomach fat is slated to be a buffer for our bodies against the harshness and sparseness of winter; and, all kinds of other things too.  It is fats that permit us to live ... so selection of the proper kinds and amounts to suit is very important ... it spells out not only how long we live but also the quality of that life.  Choosing the 'right' fats is much more than the toss of the dice.  I've been at this over 30 years now and am still learning.

This is important for you and your roomy both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

John
Posted by: Connect, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 5:54pm; Reply: 54
Sandra:

You are correct.  I was just trying to get her to understand the nutrition and health a bit better.  I wasn't specifically commenting on the BTD compliance of such oils as corn, safflower, etc... I was commenting on the research I've done saying these aren't really good fats, in general.  Again, perhaps I'm confused about that.

John:

Thank you for the words.  I know this is all a learning process.  I learn something new from everyone on here daily.  Thanks for explaining the important role that fats play in our diet.  

This may sound like a question that I should know the answer to, but what is fat stored as in the body?  Fat?  I feel like this is something basic that I should know, but I apparently don't.  
Posted by: 381 (Guest), Thursday, January 26, 2006, 7:49pm; Reply: 55
Quoted from connect14
Sandra:

You are correct.  I was just trying to get her to understand the nutrition and health a bit better.  I wasn't specifically commenting on the BTD compliance of such oils as corn, safflower, etc... I was commenting on the research I've done saying these aren't really good fats, in general.   


Interesting!  If you rediscover where you read that, please share the link.
Posted by: Connect, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 8:38pm; Reply: 56
I want to say it was on the Weston Price website, but I can't remember.  I'll take a look and see if I can find the link.
Posted by: Laura P, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 8:52pm; Reply: 57
Polys are a difficult issue, excess consumption has been shown to cause alot of health problems, mostly for two reasons.  
a) they become easily rancid creating free radicals
b) too much upsets the balance needed
Posted by: Connect, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 9:19pm; Reply: 58
Quoted from shemch


Interesting!  If you rediscover where you read that, please share the link.


Here it is Sandra:

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/dietdangers.html
Posted by: SusanGeary, Thursday, January 26, 2006, 9:19pm; Reply: 59
I gave up worrying about fat ages ago. I have no idea how many grams I eat but its got to be a lot!!  I take fish oil capsules (3grams a day) and I eat a lot of nut butters and use olive oil and even coconut oil.  Your room mate sounds away out of the loop on this one.  Tell her fat is good for the brain and when she gets older she will need it so she won't be all brain fuzzy!!  LOL!
Posted by: 381 (Guest), Thursday, January 26, 2006, 11:37pm; Reply: 60
Quoted from lkpetrolino
Polys are a difficult issue, excess consumption has been shown to cause alot of health problems, mostly for two reasons.  
a) they become easily rancid creating free radicals
b) too much upsets the balance needed


What is considered "excess" consumption?
Posted by: Laura P, Friday, January 27, 2006, 12:23am; Reply: 61
It's all about balance fitwitch,  In general you should try to lower your poly intake because you get them everywhere.  Here again what the precise balance is is individual, btd helps with this, I would guess that a n-3 to n-6 ratio of 5:1 for an O and about 10:1 for an A
Posted by: resting, Friday, January 27, 2006, 2:36am; Reply: 62
Hi Laura,

do I ever wish this were that simple ... just sorry they're not.

True EFA's form what is called a pi electron cloud, which means they share atoms of oxygen, or electrons, or photons of light over the area where the unsaturation exists.  [these very active elements are not fixed at one spot but are 'shared' over a range of molecular sites]  This means that every desaturated site has a 'methyl' group in between (a carbon part that looks like: -CH2-)... so AA(arachidonic acid) of the omega-6 family has 4 unsaturated sites and 3 methyl groups making a circle in appearance.  In much the same way the omega-3's EPA has 5 unsaturated sites separated by 4 methyl-groups in its larger circle and DHA has 6 unsaturated sites separated by 5 methyl groups in its even larger circle.

Here are some of the ways a problem begins .... 1) all fats are called fatty acids, and it is via this acid part that they are digested.  So too much of the not good kind competes directly for digestion with the good fats.  If there is a diminished capacity to digest fats (as in A-nonnies) other kinds of fats if in excess (and not so bulky as are EFA's) will mean that EFA's are crowded out.  2) trans fats are chemically altered in such a way that the pi-cloud disappears.  No pi-cloud = no transport. [Something like removing the track from one side of a set of train tracks.]  This also means that these very active elements are now fixed in one spot and leads directly to uncontrolled cross-linking. 3) canola oil has 3 unsaturated sites but only two of the three have a methyl group in between.  So it's properties are different (most say poorer) than standard EFA's.

There is a notion of ratios of omega-3's to omega-6's that presume a kind of year-round balance between these.  But a close examination will show that omega-6's are more related to heat (tropics) and are closely connected to pigments [note how vibrant animal-colours are in the tropics and how bland most animal colours of the temperate zones] and growth while omega-3's are more suited to cold.  This means that there is a seasonal cycling of EFA's such that Spring-summer is geared to omega-6's, while omega-3's are for autumn and winter in temperate/arctic zones.  The notion of ratios is much too simple!

confused - me too ...........

John
Posted by: Connect, Friday, January 27, 2006, 6:04am; Reply: 63
Yeah, I'm confused.
Posted by: Draginvry, Friday, January 27, 2006, 6:41am; Reply: 64
Quoted from John_McDonell_O+
 But a close examination will show that omega-6's are more related to heat (tropics) and are closely connected to pigments [note how vibrant animal-colours are in the tropics and how bland most animal colours of the temperate zones] and growth while omega-3's are more suited to cold.


That explains a lot...
Posted by: Connect, Tuesday, January 31, 2006, 7:15pm; Reply: 65
Quoted from John_McDonell_O+
Hi Laura,

1) all fats are called fatty acids, and it is via this acid part that they are digested.  So too much of the not good kind competes directly for digestion with the good fats.  If there is a diminished capacity to digest fats (as in A-nonnies) other kinds of fats if in excess (and not so bulky as are EFA's) will mean that EFA's are crowded out.  

John


John:
Are you saying here (with the A-nonnie quote):  that this is the reason to keep monounsaturated fats (such as olive oil, peanut butter) to a minimum, even though they are beneficial?  so that the EFAs are not crowded out?  
Posted by: Cheryl_O_Blogger, Tuesday, January 31, 2006, 7:25pm; Reply: 66
Quoted from SusanGeary
I gave up worrying about fat ages ago. I have no idea how many grams I eat but its got to be a lot!!  I take fish oil capsules (3grams a day) and I eat a lot of nut butters and use olive oil and even coconut oil.  Your room mate sounds away out of the loop on this one.  Tell her fat is good for the brain and when she gets older she will need it so she won't be all brain fuzzy!!  LOL!


Tell her it will be good for her skin and hair too.  Most of us can appreciate that.

Posted by: Cheryl_O_Blogger, Tuesday, January 31, 2006, 7:41pm; Reply: 67
Quoted from John_McDonell_O+

There is a notion of ratios of omega-3's to omega-6's that presume a kind of year-round balance between these.  But a close examination will show that omega-6's are more related to heat (tropics) and are closely connected to pigments [note how vibrant animal-colours are in the tropics and how bland most animal colours of the temperate zones] and growth while omega-3's are more suited to cold.  This means that there is a seasonal cycling of EFA's such that Spring-summer is geared to omega-6's, while omega-3's are for autumn and winter in temperate/arctic zones.  The notion of ratios is much too simple!

confused - me too ...........

John


John, I know you're into the seasonal thing.  Are you suggesting that the ideal ratio might depend on the time of year and local climate?  Can you give us an example of how you vary your oil consumption over the course of the year?

Posted by: Cheryl_O_Blogger, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 3:38pm; Reply: 68
Just bumping this up, maybe John missed it.
Posted by: resting, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 5:27pm; Reply: 69
Sorry Cheryl - I did!

Before I get into seasonal variation I should make some sort of declaration that this whole concept is a variation of the BTD and it is EXPERIMENTAL.  It makes all kinds of sense to me, but putting such information into any kind of therapeutic practice is your experiment!

I use   > colostrum >> Spring >> summer >> autumn  >> winter >

FATS: for the first half of the seasonal cycle ...+ lecithin + omega-6 oils (mostly sunflower and safflower oils) + a small amount of AA these are strongly connected to pigmentation and being exposed to sunlight so in spring grass juice is followed by chlorella and a number of berries and edible flowers ... perhaps edible insects too .... energy of prominence sunlight & heat
        for the second half of the seasonal cycle ... autumn + lecithin + omega-3 mixed in with omega-6 ... mostly plant-derived (flax and hemp).  [I much prefer the whole seed to the oil.] + Stabilium
winter: +lecithin + omega-3 oils of EPA/DHA likely some vitamins A and D3 too .... eg. cod liver oil

sure hope this doesn't confuse
.............. energy of prominence - magnetism and cold
Posted by: KimonoKat, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 5:33pm; Reply: 70
I'm sorry John.  Could you break it down a bit more simple for me?

Spring:  I do this
Summer: I do this
Fall: I do this
Winter: I do this

And from what I'm trying to understand of your seasonal experiment, it will also depend on what hemisphere one is in, correct?

Posted by: Cheryl_O_Blogger, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 5:40pm; Reply: 71
Thanks for that breakdown.  I think many of us combine other concepts with BTD from time to time.  I always monitor the things I can measure as well as how I feel when I make any big change to my diet.  Even within BTD, there are things they may not work for us as individuals.
Posted by: resting, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 6:27pm; Reply: 72
Correct Kimokat,

Part of following strictly the BTD as written, is that it strongly tends to be 'flat-line' and override differences in zones.  This may not seem to be a huge thing if you live in the sub-tropics, but this is extremely important where I reside.  This does not seem to be of too much consequence until you start to understand that omega-3's can dominate omega-6's especially as how they connect to pigments.  So, by eating flax the whole year-round you skew the omega-6 oils chance to connect strongly with pigments.

Variation of oils (as I have outlined) is not used by anyone and most modern nutritionists wish you to take omega-3's year-round.  In a way, it short-circuits the use of omega-6.

John
Posted by: Victoria, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 6:41pm; Reply: 73
John,
For those of us in moderate climates, do you think the seasonal use of Omega 6's as you described might contribute to increasing the inflammatory situations that so many of us are struggling with?
Posted by: resting, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 7:42pm; Reply: 74
Victoria -

exactly - the difficulty here lies in the improper understanding of the chemical basis for the vast majority of inflammation.  One of the bi-products of AA(arachidonic acid of the omega-6) is PgE2(prostaglandin E2),  produces all kinds of inflammation.  For many decades now, it has been called the 'bad boy'.  However, all PgE2 is just following orders to get some zinc.  If it has to, (very persistent, eh) it will rob this from another cell surface.  If such happens often, this will create a clumping of cells that we term inflammation.

solution - supply the zinc on the cell surface and the whole inflammation thing will not happen.  Zinc is strongly tied onto membrane surfaces by taurine .... kinda like the bricks on a house being stuck by grout.  So the solution is 25mg - zinc + 2mg - copper + 2g of taurine .... on an empty stomach 2X each day until the body does not need such a high amount ... then it can be halved.  A third period like this can be magnesium + potassium + taurine ..............

John
Posted by: Victoria, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 8:14pm; Reply: 75
Thank you John.

Would you explain a little more what the zinc, copper and taurine do?

And likewise, what do the magnesium, potassium and taurine combo do?  Why do you switch formulas at that point?
Posted by: resting, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 11:00pm; Reply: 76
Hi Laura,

the questions are short ... my answer - long

By looking at your arm, an image of what I am referring to is apparent.  Taurine binds zinc to on the outer layer of cell membranes.  This looks somewhat like the hairs on your arm where the skin on your arm(membrane) has a follicle(zinc) and then a hair shaft(taurine) ... so its M(membrane)-Zn(zinc)-HSH2-CH2-CH2-NH2(taurine).
[in this picture, because this structure isn't just anywhere ... the M spot is likely a membrane-bound molecule of AA(arachidonic acid).  this means -AA-Zn-taurine]

This formation aligns all membrane-bound-taurine in the same direction ... you and taswolf are both      pointing outwards, even though you are likely opposite in orientation, so too with taurine and zinc.  Taurine is called a zwitterion [sounds like 'twitter-eye-on'] with a small negative charge on one end and a positive charge at the other.  With this arrangement each cell maintains a little negative charge on its surface.  This forces cells to stay apart.

If there is a lack of taurine ... there is no force to keep cells from not sticking

more tomorrow ..........

John
Posted by: resting, Friday, February 3, 2006, 1:20pm; Reply: 77
PART II ...EFA fats ... zinc, etc

what I have described here is the basic structure.  When most researchers write they talk about a 'pool' and give no idea of what this would look like ... this describes how the main 'zinc pool' looks, so zinc going into this and exiting from it will cause the smallest disruption.  In former times (with zinc not linked to taurine) much inflammation occurred because there often is a chronic deficiency in structuring this 'pool'.

So let's play with this a bit.  Zinc is known as a divalent cation ... this is written as Zn++[sup][/sup].  There are many minerals that are divalent cations, do these too have this kind of 'structured pool'?  A few ... but not many at all!!
Copper- Cu++ - is almost identical with zinc (in structure) and is linked with zinc when the internal side of cells form the highly protective enzyme super-oxide dismutase(SOD).
Strange though, insides of cells also have membranes in areas called organelles.  One sub-family and protectants of organelles is a different kind of dismutase with manganese - Mn++ - being the main divalent cation and cobalt - Co++ - being its sidekick.  Don has written about the taurine-manganese link (in another thread)!

John
Posted by: Victoria, Friday, February 3, 2006, 6:29pm; Reply: 78
How would a person know if she/he were deficient in taurine?  Are there good food sources?
Posted by: ruthie, Friday, February 3, 2006, 7:30pm; Reply: 79

Since this is a post thread concerning fat, i will toss my fat story in.  In the spring of 2000 I went to India to do Panchakarma with an Ayurvedic Physician.  I can't recall how many times I did this, but he would have me drink 1/4 cup of warm ghee on empty stomach as soon as I arrived at his office.  That was my first experience with ghee.  I brought ghee home with me, and getting thru mumbai airport without busting the glass containers was a miracle in itself.  There are 20 milion people in that city, and I think half of them were at the airport on that day.
namaste
ruthie
Posted by: Victoria, Friday, February 3, 2006, 7:38pm; Reply: 80
Ruthie,

I've been in that airport.  Oh, yes!  talk about culture shock.

What was your experience from drinking the ghee?
Posted by: resting, Friday, February 3, 2006, 7:58pm; Reply: 81
PART III -

There are other kinds of atoms(monovalent cations) that are affected by the M-Zn-taurine structure.  This formation is known as the 'potassium (K+) pump'.  So when a cell needs potassium on its 'inside' it uses this structure to transfer potassium ions there.  Most cells have more potassium on the insides and its partner sodium(Na+) is on the outside.  Often there is an electrical potential between potassium and sodium.  So it is important that these two be separated .... this is so especially in adrenal/energy activity.  [this is why one of the symptoms of PMS is extreme fatigue and one of the main 'solutions' to PMS is supplementing with high doses of potassium.]  

This is also why potassium levels are critical factors in calling it an electrolyte.  IMO attempting to increase potassium without attempting to increase the number of potassium pumps is problematic.

There are all kinds of things occurring that taurine has a powerful influence on ... some of these are the divalent cations magnesium - Mg++ [and through this also calcium - Ca++ is influenced] but how this mechanism works, I do not know.  One article pronounces taurine's influence [these credit only taurine, but they really mean the M-Zn- taurine structure] to be as strong on the heart as magnesium, or CoQ10, or carnitine.  [add some potassium and you have all the energy bases for the heart covered ... well maybe a little manganese and B12 - methyl cobalmin, the cobalt source.]

There are any number of ways that taurine's exceptional calming influence has been used: on epileptic seizures and to help sleep (with magnesium).  Since implementing the basic structure goes: such applications can be as diverse as elimination inflammation, to improving eyesight, to overcoming many chronic conditions and, hopefully some genetic ones (with autoimmune characteristics) too.

hope this helps Victoria ....

just thought that the basic analogy for omega-6's and omega-3's and the way these two should be supplemented:
say you approach a four light traffic light ... the first on the bottom is an 'advanced-GREEN' with an arrow (Spring) ... the second is a full-GREEN'(summer) ... the third is YELLOW(autumn) ... and the fourth RED(winter).  The talk so far is to achieve a balance between omega-6's and omega-3's ... in my opinion this is like having all the lights 'on' at the same time ... extremely confusing for the body.  If instead we try one at a time, (in a repeating pattern) much headway can be achieved.

John
Posted by: ruthie, Friday, February 3, 2006, 8:45pm; Reply: 82
Victoria--The whole Panchakarma experience was such a departure from anything I'd ever done before.  All I can say is that I came home feeling great.  I kept a journal and if i can find it will look for anything that stands out.
namaste
ruthie
Posted by: Victoria, Saturday, February 4, 2006, 5:24am; Reply: 83
John,
You are certainly a wealth of knowledge. Thank you for taking the time to put all that down "on paper" for us.  I can't say I really grasp it, but I have a better idea of what you were talking about.

Thanks again.
Posted by: Victoria, Saturday, February 4, 2006, 5:27am; Reply: 84
Quoted from ruthie
Victoria--The whole Panchakarma experience was such a departure from anything I'd ever done before.  All I can say is that I came home feeling great.  I kept a journal and if i can find it will look for anything that stands out.
namaste
ruthie


I'd love to hear anything you want to share.  My time in India is full of precious memories and life changing experiences.  I'll never forget the smells, and the beautiful smiles, and the chanting, and the food, and the rain, and the bugs, sand crabs, lizards, frogs, water buffalo yogurt (curd), chapatis, chai, lassis and GHEE.
Posted by: ruthie, Sunday, February 5, 2006, 2:48pm; Reply: 85
Victoria-Maybe we need to start a thread about India.  In addition to seeing an Ayru Dr, I spent most of my time at a commune devoted to meditation.  The wild ricksha rides just about took my breath away--and swerving around the cows--wow
namaste
ruthie
Posted by: Victoria, Sunday, February 5, 2006, 7:52pm; Reply: 86
Ok Ruthie,
I'll do it today!

:-)
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