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Dairy Kefir vs. Water Kefir  This thread currently has 4,927 views. Print Print Thread
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Conor
Monday, May 21, 2012, 9:52pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I like, and use, water kefir more than dairy kefir so I'm trying to sort out a couple of things (after having looked through TypeBase 4 and the forum archives).

  • I know that Doctor D'Adamo says that even probiotic bateria are type specific, and my SWAMI list has kefir as a neutral under 'Dairy' but it doesn't mention any form of kefir, e.g., water, under 'Beverages.' Due to the milk proteins, et cetera, in dairy kefir, I can't imagine that the two forms of kefir are used interchangeably in the SWAMI inventory (but, actually, I have no clue). Does anyone know the scoop on this?
  • Under the 'Beverages' category in my SWAMI profile, it does list kombucha tea as a neutral. Is water kefir sufficient enough in composition to kombucha tea that one correlates equally to the other?

Or, since water kefir is not listed on my SWAMI generated nutrition list, should I just treat it as a neutral and continue using it? Thanks in advance for any constructive feedback.

Note: I drink about six ounces three times daily solely for its probiotic benefits, which I prefer to obtain from food rather than a pill, and I use two of my superfood sugars--agave syrup and blackstrap molasses--as food for the tibicos.



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Drea
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I drink about a quart of water kefir a day, and although dairy kefir is a beneficial on my swami, I am not in a position to make it myself. Water kefir, I can do. It agrees with my body, but it's not listed/tested, so I treat it as a neutral.


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Lola
Tuesday, May 22, 2012, 2:27am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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here s something I have done using a polyflora.......I have made great faux yogurt out of practically all grains nuts and seed milk I was taught to make in these extraordinary forums!!!


I have also used 'bulgaros' for that purpose......those tiny brain looking things......I believe those are kefir grains?


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ruthiegirl
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I would consider water kefir to be an unlisted food. I get kefir as an outright avoid (even though I've never had any problems from the goat milk kefir and my tummy loves that stuff) and kombucha as a black dot (I don't get any other form of black tea either.) I've had kombucha a few times in the past (pre-BTD) when looking for a non-dairy probiotic source, and every single time it's triggered a fibro-flare. I think it creates an intense detox, too much for my body to handle. I may give it another try in a few years after I've done a lot of other detoxification and healing (specifically after I get all this mercury out of my mouth and I've had at least several months of chelation.)

I make beet kvass to get my probiotics in. My current batch used a polyflora O as a starter, and I use a bit of the old batch to make the next new batch, so I'l continue to have the BTD appropriate probiotics in my daily probiotic beverage. But I've used wild strains in the past (initial batch with just water and salt and an extra day to ferment.)

Here's how I make it:

1) wash beets (2 small, 1 medium, or 1/2 large) and cut into 1 inch chunks
2) put into clean quart-sized glass jar
3) add 1 tsp salt and some starter (a little bit of the last batch, or an emptied out polyflora capsule)
4) fill jar with filtered water, cover, and shake
5) let sit on counter for 2 days (3 if not using any starter)
6) Transfer to refrigerator and enjoy cold.

When I finish the jar and start the next batch, I eat the pickled beets, usually with sardines.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  13yo B+ Jack


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passionprincess
Tuesday, May 22, 2012, 7:37pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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A recent study found that kombucha enables candida while water and milk kefir keep candida under control.

If you have candida, this is something you might want to consider.

I like all 3 drinks - water and milk kefir and kombucha. When my candida issue was not under control, kombucha would make me break out and cause tons of GI distress - bloating and massive gas. I am going to give it a try again, soon.

As for probiotics, I make my own organic Korean kimchee at home.


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Conor
Tuesday, May 22, 2012, 7:38pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ruthiegirl
I make beet kvass to get my probiotics in. My current batch used a polyflora O as a starter, and I use a bit of the old batch to make the next new batch, so I'l continue to have the BTD appropriate probiotics in my daily probiotic beverage.

Thanks for this, ruthiegirl. Also reminded me that my seanmhair made a similar drink with beets when I was growing up. I'd forgotten about it. She drank it every day. She also made some incredible pickled vegetable mixes that she'd can and store in the root cellar, and she taught me how to make sauerkraut (which I still make today). As a kid, I seriously couldn't eat enough of her sauerkraut. She'd even put fried eggs on a bed of it for me. To this day, it's still one of my favorite breakfasts. (:

I'll try the beet kvass and let you know how it turns out. I'm like a mad scientist in the kitchen when it comes to fermenting foods. Love to experiment with different ideas.



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Conor
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FYI ... anyone interested, I found bacteria/yeast profiles for both dairy and water kefir on Yemoos' website and am posting them here:

Quoted from Water Kefir Strains

Water kefir is typically composed of Lactobacillus, Streptococcus, Pediococcus and Leuconostoc bacteria with yeasts from Saccharomyces, Candida, Kloeckera and possibly other minor yeasts.

Bacteria

Species Lactobacillus
  • L. acidophilus
  • L. alactosus
  • L. brevis
  • L. bulgaricus
  • L. casei subsp. casei
  • L. casei subsp. pseudoplantarum
  • L. casei subsp. rhamnosus
  • L. casei subsp. tolerans
  • L. coryneformis subsp. torquens
  • L. fructosus
  • L. hilgardii
  • L. homohiochi
  • L. plantarum
  • L. psuedoplantarum
  • L. reuterietc
  • L. yamanashiensis

Species Streptococcus
  • S. agalactiae
  • Sr. bovis
  • S. cremeris
  • S. faecalis
  • S. lactis
  • S. mutans
  • S. pneumoniae
  • S. pyogenes
  • S. salivarius
  • S. sanguinis
  • S. suis
  • S. viridans

Species Pediococcus
  • P. damnosus

Species Leuconostoc
  • L. mesenteroides

Species Bacillus
  • B. subtilis
  • B. graveolus

Yeast

Species Saccharomyces
  • S. bayanus
  • S. boullardii
  • S. cerevisiae
  • S. florentinus
  • S. pretoriensis
  • S. uvarum

Species Kloeckera
  • K. apiculata

Species Hansenula
  • H. yalbensis

Species Candida
  • C. gueretana
  • C. lamica
  • C. valida

*Does NOT contain C. albicans; the yeast associated with human yeast infections and 'candida' in general.

Species Torulopsis
  • T. insconspicna

*Does NOT contain T. glabrata; also associated with yeast infections and 'candida.'

Quoted from Dairy Milk Kefir Strains

The following strains are grouped by type.

LACTOBACILLI
  • Lactobacillus acidophilus
  • Lb. brevis [Possibly now Lb. kefiri]
  • Lb. casei subsp. casei
  • Lb. casei subsp. rhamnosus
  • Lb. paracasei subsp. paracasei
  • Lb. fermentum
  • Lb. cellobiosus
  • Lb. delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus
  • Lb. delbrueckii subsp. lactis
  • Lb. fructivorans
  • Lb. helveticus subsp. lactis
  • Lb. hilgardii
  • Lb. helveticus
  • Lb. kefiri
  • Lb. kefiranofaciens subsp. kefirgranum
  • Lb. kefiranofaciens subsp. kefiranofaciens
  • Lb. parakefiri
  • Lb. plantarum

STREPTOCOCCI/LACTOCOCCI
  • Streptococcus thermophilus
  • St. paracitrovorus ^
  • Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
  • Lc. lactis subsp. lactis biovar. diacetylactis
  • Lc. lactis subsp. cremoris
  • Enterococcus durans
  • Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris
  • Leuc. mesenteroides subsp. mesenteroides
  • Leuc. dextranicum ^

YEASTS
  • Dekkera anomala t/ Brettanomyces anomalus a
  • Kluyveromyces marxianus t/ Candida kefyr a#
  • Pichia fermentans t/ C. firmetaria a
  • Yarrowia lipolytica t/ C. lipolytica a
  • Debaryomyces hansenii t/ C. famata a#
  • Deb. [Schwanniomyces] occidentalis
  • Issatchenkia orientalis t/ C. krusei a
  • Galactomyces geotrichum t/ Geotrichum candidum a
  • C. friedrichii
  • C. rancens
  • C. tenuis
  • C. humilis
  • C. inconspicua
  • C. maris
  • Cryptococcus humicolus
  • Kluyveromyces lactis var. lactis #
  • Kluyv. bulgaricus
  • Kluyv. lodderae
  • Saccharomyces cerevisiae #
  • Sacc. subsp. torulopsis holmii
  • Sacc. pastorianus
  • Sacc. humaticus
  • Sacc. unisporus
  • Sacc. exiguus
  • Sacc. turicensis sp. nov
  • Torulaspora delbrueckii t
  • * Zygosaccharomyces rouxii

ACETOBACTER
  • Acetobacter aceti
  • Acetobacter rasens

Legend
  • t Teleomorph: Sexual reproductive stage; yeast form pseudo-mycelium as in Flowers of Kefir.
  • a Anamorph: Asexual reproductive stage; reproduce by budding or forming spores or cell splitting [fission].
  • # Can utilize lactose or lactate.
  • ^ Aroma forming.
  • subsp. Sub specie type.
  • sp. Specie type.
  • sp. nov. New strain or new specie strain type.
  • biovar. Biological variation strain type.
  • var. Variety type.

Units Count of Microbes in Gram Stained Kefir Grains
  • Bacilli [single cells, pair, chains]
  • Streptococci [pair, chains]
  • Yeast [single cells]

The Means Range
  • Bacilli 66, 62-69%
  • Streptococci 16, 11- 12%
  • Yeast 18, 16- 20% [11]

Evolution Sequence among Genus Groups during Kefir Culture Cycle
  • Lactococci > Lactobacilli > Leuconostoc > Yeast > Acetobacter

Microbial Composition of Kefir at End of Fermentation [colony forming units/ml
  • Lactococci : 1,000,000,000
  • Leuconostocs : 100,000,000
  • Lactobacilli : 5,000,000
  • Yeast : 1,000,000
  • Acetobacter : 100,000




Compliant, me?!? ... I even attended a university whose mascot is one of my ◆ Superfoods!
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Conor
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Quoted from Lola
I have also used 'bulgaros' for that purpose......those tiny brain looking things......I believe those are kefir grains?

Hi Lola, sorry I missed this earlier. Yes, exactly, the bulgaros (milk kefir grains) are what I use to culture, as well. I think of them as my freaky cauliflower. (:

Right now I'm only using them to make kefir for the dogs, and to culture cream for butter, since I'm aiming to stay in full compliance with the superfoods on my SWAMI profile for the next six months (well, five more now) and kefir is listed as a neutral.



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passionprincess
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You can also eat milk and water kefir grains. I ate quite a few when I had to work on my candida issues. Water kefir grains tasted like tasteless gummy/jelly bits (less chewy). Milk kefir grains tasted like gummy cheese. It was actually quite good when I seasoned it with sea salt and at times, a bit of black pepper (black dot).


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Goldie
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hahahahaha youall lost me// what does this stuff taste like.. I must have lived on another planet, this is all new language to me..  

Passion princess ..A recent study found that kombucha enables candida while water and milk kefir keep candida under control.

do you know if it is BTD specific or only for B's?


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Conor
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Quoted from Goldie
I must have lived on another planet, this is all new language to me.

Hi Goldie, here are three reputable informational links to bring you up to speed on kefir (and the first two of the three sites contain a plethora of information about other cultured foodstuffs, e.g., yoghurt, kombucha tea, buttermilk, et cetera):



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yaeli
Wednesday, May 23, 2012, 11:53am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Goldie
hahahahaha youall lost me// what does this stuff taste like.. I must have lived on another planet, this is all new language to me..  
     To me too...  


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yaeli
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Water kefir sounds so fantastic. Would it eventually be proclaimed a diamond for all genotypes?  


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Conor
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Quoted from yaeli
Water kefir sounds so fantastic.

It is pretty good stuff, yaeli. I don't drink Coke or Dr. Pepper anymore because I've replaced those with a homemade ginger ale that I make by doing a second fermentation of the water kefir with fresh ginger and other spices. Too, you can do a second fermentation of water kefir with the inclusion of any one of your superfood fruit beverages, or a mixture of two or more, and have a nicely effervescent, fruit-flavored drink ... with the benefit of probiotics. (:

By the way, if you enjoy a fizzier drink, it helps to do the second fermentation in a Grolsch-style bottle (with a swing top) to increase the natural carbonation.



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passionprincess
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Kombucha and Candida

Hi, Goldie and everyone else -

I can't find the article on kombucha's effect on candida but it was a study out of Cornell University. They found that kombucha actually fed the candida. I experienced this firsthand during my cleanse. I had to cut down on kombucha. I increased my kefir (water and milk) intake.


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Drea
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I do the first fermentation with dried ginger (in a cloth bag), half a lemon, and 4 figs to almost a gallon of water. I love the ginger-y taste! It's way better than soda!


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passionprincess
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Now that my candida is under control, I can drink kombucha to my heart's content.

I read about kefir-cha. I think I will start experimenting soon. If anyone on this board ever made/brewed kefir-cha, please share your experience!


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Conor
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Quoted from passionprincess
If anyone on this board ever made/brewed kefir-cha, please share your experience!

Hi passionprincess, if you're referring to "cha" as the Japanese word for tea, I'll tell you how I use the water kefir grains to ferment full-strength green and/or white tea. Basically, I steep four (4) tablespoons of loose green and/or white tea leaves in 32 ounces of spring water (important for the kefir grains, as they like mineralized water) for 90 seconds. Strain off the tea leaves (but be sure to keep; you can use them again to do a secondary 'yin' brewing). To your tea liquid, put in one-quarter (1/4) cup of organic agave syrup or similar less-refined sugar (e.g., rapadura or dark muscovado), one (1) teaspoon unsulphured blackstrap molasses, one (1) tablespoon of liquid trace minerals (optional, but helpful), one (1) inch of peeled ginger, sliced thinly, one-half (1/2) organic lemon, sliced thinly with peel intact, and eight (8) organic, unsulphured raisins (alternately a dried fig, cut in half). Stir all ingredients until sugar/syrup has thoroughly dissolved into solution. Set aside and let mixture cool to room temperature. Add water kefir grains and allow to ferment for 48 hours. After 48 hours, strain and refrigerate tea kefir (kefir cha).

By the way, if yerba maté is one of your superfoods, it (especially the San Mateo air-dried varietal) can be used in place of green/white tea with equally good results.



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Drea
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Hey Conor, thanks for the detailed instructions on the kefir-cha! Once my kitchen is back in working order, I'm going to try this!


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Conor
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Compliant, me?!? ... I even attended a university whose mascot is one of my ◆ Superfoods!
What is food to one man is bitter poison to others. ~ Titus Lucretius Carus
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passionprincess
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Thanks, Conor.

Actually, you and I have almost identical brewing methods. I am actually referring to a water kefir + kombucha hybrid. I read about it somewhere and can't locate the link...


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Conor
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Quoted from passionprincess
I am actually referring to a water kefir + kombucha hybrid.

I'd be interested to see the information when you locate the link. I was under the impression that some of the bacteria and yeast in kefir and kombucha wouldn't play nice, so to avoid cross-contamination. Not that I don't do things like that on purpose sometimes just to see what happens. (:

Of course, as a kid, it was said about me that I could screw up an anvil with a rubber mallet. So ...



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passionprincess
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You and I are on the same mental wavelength. Let's play Wall of Voodoo on 91X   while playing the role of mad scientists with kefir and kombucha on this forum!

Quoted from Conor

I'd be interested to see the information when you locate the link. I was under the impression that some of the bacteria and yeast in kefir and kombucha wouldn't play nice, so to avoid cross-contamination. Not that I don't do things like that on purpose sometimes just to see what happens. (:

Of course, as a kid, it was said about me that I could screw up an anvil with a rubber mallet. So ...



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passionprincess
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I am so excited! I located a milk kefir grain supplier in my area who uses raw milk for his grains. I am going to try and pick up the grains tomorrow! The last time I felt this excited was when my parents told my sisters and I that we were going to get two puppies!


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Sahara
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SWAMI would pay for itself if it gave me kefir and something tells me that is not going to happen.
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