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Grains;  BTD & GTD  This thread currently has 3,223 views. Print Print Thread
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Susana
Thursday, December 4, 2008, 10:54pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1 Hunter 51%
Kyosha Nim
Posts: 1,445
Gender: Female
Location: Tenerife, Spain
Age: 51
Please help me get a better grasp on the importance of grains for O's.

When I first started the BTD I had the "doubt" about the amount of red meat. I use "" over the word doubt as I basically trusted DR. D but hearing on a daily basis the opposite message made me continue searching for "the truth" on this issue. Now I am quite settled on this issue. But I have a new one.

I tend to like how I feel without grains. But, once again I am being constantly reminded of the dangers of a grain free "diet." Mind you it is not a grain free diet, among us knowledgeable it is grain free GTD. Not the same.

While on the BTD if I had grains it would always be gluten containing grains (spelt, rye, manna) and did not like the way I felt. I prefered doing the BTD without grains. I loved it.

The GTD comes along and loandbehold, I am a Hunter and gluten does not suit me. Duh! Dr. D had to come along to tell me. Thank you

I have yet to try compliant GTD with grains. I have tried it but I can not stop my consumption of rice or quinoa crackers. I prefer to go without grains. My life, given my food addiction, is much easier without grains.

On ER4YT Dr D. mentions O's tended to be on slight ketosis. I can not find the reference page, I gave my book away, yet again!

On the BTD, O non-secs have 0-3 portion/frequency. On health book series only manna is beneficial, not even HB for O's. I grew tired of Heidi writing us O's could do without grains.

On the GTD Gatherers have some diamond grains but Hunters have no diamonds. But, we can have 3 portions a day. I recon Dr. D. has filtered even further. So perhaps now, since the grains allowed per genotype "fit" better we can have more. But on the characteristics of Hunters on this web page Dr. D. says we can basically do with anything that holds on a stick.

I am afraid going grain free may break what ain't broken.

The question is:

A) What are the benefits of grains for an O Hunter?

B) What are the dangers of a grain free O Hunter way of life?

C) Are my genes going to go wako because of the inbalance?

Please help with BTD/GTD mental frame.



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Lloyd
Thursday, December 4, 2008, 11:45pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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I can relate to what you are saying about grains. BTD for me was once a week, although it tended to be the equivalent of a couple servings. The GTD portions work out to where 2-3 servings = one day of BTD grain servings based on the difference in how the serving size is listed. About half the time was spelt. Even geting off that low an amount of gluten on the GT1 diet has been noticable in reducing most of the last vestiges of white lines from my fingerprints. I am currently having the BTD equivalent of 3-4 servings/week and am not at all sure that it has helped, may be hindering. Hard to say.

Do we need grain? I don't know. A SWAMI may well reduce the amount of grain suggested for you. Hard to say offhand but i would suspect your nonniehood would be more factored in.

If you are getting the things you need that would normally come from grain then there is no need to use grain.
Grains provide fiber. As do fruits, veggies, nuts and legumes/beans. The type and amount of fiber may have significance. There are also other nutrients and micronutrients that would need to be taken into account. It's hard to judge without knowing what the criteria were that the DDE used to sort those items out as superfoods. Someday I may play with the DDE to see if I can figure some of it out, but most of this is far more complex and interrelated than something like the dairy recommendations (which are very simple to reverse engineer for Hunters). Dr D may weigh in at some point or other pieces of the puzzle will fall into place by some other means. Do not know if there are any epigenetic factors involved with the grains.

I have noted that nearly every GT has identical grain servings recommendations. Only Teachers seem to benefit from more grain intake than the rest of us and even then it is not much more. So it's hard to presume anything about serving size and frequency other than that it would appear that there is a real suggested minimum and the max is not all that much more. Hunters do not need the protiens as other types might. Other than that I can only wildly speculate.
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Mrs T O+
Friday, December 5, 2008, 12:22am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Concealed Carry Gatherer! SWAMI Explorer Blend
Kyosha Nim
Posts: 3,212
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Location: Chicago, Illinois
I'm sure it's OK to not eat grains.  There are other starches you can eat like sweet potatoes.  I don't think it is imperative to eat grains.
I feel better without them, too, but eventually crave some.


Interested in nutrition, lactation, religion, politics; love to be around people; talkative, sensitive, goofy; a "fishy Christian" ><>; left-handed; lived on a farm, small town & big city; love BTD/GTD; A staunch La Leche League veteran; b. 10/1947 Check BTD/GTD on facebook!
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accidental_chef
Friday, December 5, 2008, 4:27am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Hunter ISTJ Gemini + Nomad Gemini Hubby
Ee Dan
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This is something I thought about too when I started GTD. For me personally, grains add bulk for effective elimination. When I eat just animal proteins, vegetables and starchy vegetables and fruits there's hardly any elimination. It's like peristalsis halts or something.

My choice of grain is rice-being Asian and all  . For a satisfying meal I must have selections from all food categories. Something typically like rice, ghee, 2-3 vegetables, and protein atleast for one meal. Could be a cultural thing.

If grain based dishes took a higher volume over other categories I dont feel good.


BTD compliance means: Definition of "Compliance"

[color=blue]Pranic Healer with http://www.pranichealing.sg/

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Lola
Friday, December 5, 2008, 5:11am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1; L (a-b-); (se); PROP-T; NN
Sa Bon Nim
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I have had very good results following the guidelines so far.
The addition of diamond grains for me has been all together positive, considering my previous BTD grain deprived lifestyle!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Susana
Friday, December 5, 2008, 10:11am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1 Hunter 51%
Kyosha Nim
Posts: 1,445
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Location: Tenerife, Spain
Age: 51
Thank you for your prompt reply. I came here before breakfast to see if there were any replies. Pleasantly surprised! Thank you.

I can not say SB GTD grains in appropriate amounts suit me, I have always over consumed . This is why I prefer grain free.

Lloyd, for the time you were eating so little grain, what was your health experience? Did you exercise at the time?

Mrs T, you seem to consume little grain as well. It seems you have some when you crave it but go back to avoidance. I recon you are happy with your health experience or else you would not do it like this .

AC, I experience bowel issues as well, especially in the beginning. It gets better with time and, for me, with flax meal. Don't try grain free again because of this advice !

Lola, you were for years grain free weren't you? What was your experience? I often think that throughout those years perhaps you were "trained" to eat correctly and now you can eat grains in moderate amounts.

Once again thank you very much

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Henriette Bsec
Friday, December 5, 2008, 10:25am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

swamied nomad chameleon receptor worldview
Kyosha Nim
Posts: 8,644
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Age: 42
I wonder if an nomad could step in  

I have for long times lived without grain- never had a problem with my bowels when I don┤t eat grain  
actually had more problems with grain than without...
I don┤t eat grains in huge ammounts - since I found out that I felt better on a low carb/high fat approach to the B diet- I loose weigh easier- I don┤t have any sugar swings. I am sensitive to too much gluten - but not real G.I

Emma O sec has in long periods lived with very little grain( she is prop. hunter - could be gatherer) and she has been a growing teen- developing well.

We do eat grains at the moment
mainly due to economy, time of the year ( it is cold here)and it is soon x-mas...
but I am certain that I┤ll return to my low/no grain approach when January comes.

There is no diamond grains for nomads !

Remember mankind has lived longer without grains than with grains !


ENFP -naturalist, visual/spatial and musical/verbal/chatty Dane- Mother to DD Emma age 19,
0 rh- secr ( Hunter or Explorer )
Diamonds, superfoods, Neutral,*black dots, avoids
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possum2
Friday, December 5, 2008, 11:33am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Remember mankind has lived longer without grains than with grains !

Very good point!!
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Raquel
Friday, December 5, 2008, 11:35am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

SWAMI TEACHER
Kyosha Nim
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I'm not Hunter, but I have many Types O around my life...

I know some types O athletics on BTD, I have noticed when they practised intensely workout and sports they need more grains (they told me that they eat rice every day for recovered glucogen)...
  
Susana have you tried rice brown or basmatic, not cracker???


Teacher's motto, "all you need is love".
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Henriette Bsec
Friday, December 5, 2008, 12:29pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

swamied nomad chameleon receptor worldview
Kyosha Nim
Posts: 8,644
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Age: 42
Quoted from Raquel
I
I know some types O athletics on BTD, I have noticed when they practised intensely workout and sports they need more grains (they told me that they eat rice every day for recovered glucogen)...
  


In my low carb/high fat group I know several very active athletics - and none of them eats grains...
btw they are all O┤s not B┤s- a B would never be so active


ENFP -naturalist, visual/spatial and musical/verbal/chatty Dane- Mother to DD Emma age 19,
0 rh- secr ( Hunter or Explorer )
Diamonds, superfoods, Neutral,*black dots, avoids
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Andrea AWsec
Friday, December 5, 2008, 1:03pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

SWAMI INFJ Warrior Taster
Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from Lola
I have had very good results following the guidelines so far.
The addition of diamond grains for me has been all together positive, considering my previous BTD grain deprived lifestyle!

Wow, Lola you used caps...
(Capitials)


MIFHI

"Do not try to satisfy your vanity by teaching a great many things. Awaken people's curiosity. It is enough to open minds; do not overload them." Anatole France

"Healthy people have the least overt symptoms from eating avoid foods." Dr. D'Adamo

Revision History (2 edits)
Andrea AWsec  -  Friday, December 5, 2008, 5:04pm
Andrea AWsec  -  Friday, December 5, 2008, 5:03pm
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Lloyd
Friday, December 5, 2008, 2:15pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1 (Hunter)
Sa Bon Nim
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Quoted from Susana


Lloyd, for the time you were eating so little grain, what was your health experience? Did you exercise at the time?


My exercise has been fairly consistent throughout and for many years. The amount is consistent with at least the minimum for a Hunter.

Other than my longer term fatigue issues there was nothing detrimental that I noticed. It's hard to say since I went to that fairly soon after starting BTD and the many changes were most likely from other aspects rather than grain.

I am finding now that despite using more grain there seems to be less bulking effect. Choice of grain has something to do with that. I am adding a bit of flax or rice bran on a regular basis now, having started only last week, and the bulking effects are obvious so far. The only other comment is that my blood lipids have improved slightly since adding more grain. It's possibly connected, don't really know.

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Lola
Friday, December 5, 2008, 2:56pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1; L (a-b-); (se); PROP-T; NN
Sa Bon Nim
Admin & Columnist
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Age: 57
moderate amounts is not what I d call my GTD diamond grain and legume intake!!

the more I eat from my diamond selection, the more I loose, provided I eat from all the food categories according to frequency guidelines.

I couldn t be happier!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Susana
Saturday, December 6, 2008, 1:48pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1 Hunter 51%
Kyosha Nim
Posts: 1,445
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Age: 51
Henritte, glad you joined! Although as a Nomad, will you stay long? I hope you do

I do not want to down grade the GTD/BTD portion/frequency guidelines. I just feel more in control of my eating on a slightly ketogenic diet and want to know if I am running any risk. In the GTD web page as a reply to someone who was consuming too much of something I can not remember Dr. D said that the level of XXX (a component of the product) would skew the diet and so it was not recommended. I take that it meant that, in the GTD, the proportion of elements is important. I want to significantly reduce one food group/element. I want to know if it may be better for me to stick to BTD until I get a better handle of my eating behaviour or do an unbalanced GTD.

Lloyd, interesting your lipids have improved. Good! Do you mind sharing how? (What has gone up or down).

Raquel, from my understanding, the brain and central nervous systems can run with a diet rich in carbohydrates and in the absence of these (assuming a diet rich in fat and protein):

A) Ketone bodies which are produced from fat intake and fatty acids released from adipose tissue.

B) Glycerol, released from the fat tissue as a consequence of the breakdown of triglycerides into free fatty acids.

C) Glucose obtained from the protein in the diet.

In addition, animal protein contains all the amino acids, minerals, and vitamins, with perhaps the exception of vit C, that our bodies require.

This makes sense to me or else the human race would have extinguished.

That is why I want a better understanding, especially from a GTD standpoint. Or as a O sec doing O non sec portions/frequencies.


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Lloyd
Saturday, December 6, 2008, 2:46pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1 (Hunter)
Sa Bon Nim
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Quoted from Susana
Lloyd, interesting your lipids have improved. Good! Do you mind sharing how? (What has gone up or down).



May 2007 (1-1/2 years BTD)

HDL - 46    LDL - 87    Trig - 145   Tot Chol - 162

Oct 2008 (10 month GTD)

HDL - 48    LDL - 91    Trig - 94    Tot Chol - 158

The important change was triglycerides down from borderline/high to midrange. Trigs had been slightly higher pre-BTD and the change lower is significant. Everything else is more or less consistent with pre-BTD levels. Current numbers also imply slightly lower VLDL (29  v.  19) which is also a good thing.

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Susana
Saturday, December 6, 2008, 4:12pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1 Hunter 51%
Kyosha Nim
Posts: 1,445
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Age: 51
Fascinating Lloyd!

LDL up when supposedly it should have gone done because of less saturated fat (I assume you have less of it since you are having more grains) and the drop in triglycerides Dr. D certainly is on to something!

Thank you very much for posting. I'll be back

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Henriette Bsec
Saturday, December 6, 2008, 4:21pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

swamied nomad chameleon receptor worldview
Kyosha Nim
Posts: 8,644
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Quoted from Susana
Henritte, glad you joined! Although as a Nomad, will you stay long? I hope you do


I will.
I wonder :
on the B  secretor diet I always did better with the lower amount for grains.
it said 5-9 portions pr week - and decrease 1 serving weekly if rh - as I am  
So I often just had 4 servings over the weekend - and was grainfree more or less monday -friday.
I worked well - when I tried to combine my diet  with my O sec-rh- daughters diet  

I wonder are there any other GT than nomads that have no diamond grains ?



ENFP -naturalist, visual/spatial and musical/verbal/chatty Dane- Mother to DD Emma age 19,
0 rh- secr ( Hunter or Explorer )
Diamonds, superfoods, Neutral,*black dots, avoids
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Lloyd
Saturday, December 6, 2008, 4:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1 (Hunter)
Sa Bon Nim
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Quoted from Susana

LDL up when supposedly it should have gone done because of less saturated fat (I assume you have less of it since you are having more grains) and the drop in triglycerides Dr. D certainly is on to something!


My saturated fats are up as I have reduced olive oil and increased butter. My animal fats are unchanged. The LDL is higher in part because the VLDL is lower. That's a desired change. The change in LDL is actually not very significant and within range.
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Lloyd
Saturday, December 6, 2008, 4:51pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1 (Hunter)
Sa Bon Nim
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Quoted from Henriette Bsec


I wonder are there any other GT than nomads that have no diamond grains ?



Yes. Hunters. I have no diamonds. Grain does not seem to contribute to Hunter weight loss.  

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Henriette Bsec
Saturday, December 6, 2008, 5:04pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

swamied nomad chameleon receptor worldview
Kyosha Nim
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Location: Denmark
Age: 42
Quoted from Lloyd


Yes. Hunters. I have no diamonds. Grain does not seem to contribute to Hunter weight loss.  



Thanks I was without my book - and I am so absorbed in the nomad list  
that I forgot all about the hunters


ENFP -naturalist, visual/spatial and musical/verbal/chatty Dane- Mother to DD Emma age 19,
0 rh- secr ( Hunter or Explorer )
Diamonds, superfoods, Neutral,*black dots, avoids
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Susana
Saturday, December 6, 2008, 6:59pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1 Hunter 51%
Kyosha Nim
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Raquel, I know you share with the best intentions but I play with a card under my sleeve . The experience of a slightly ketogenic diet. It is wonderful when invited, a day before I go low on carbs and I am not hungry at all. I really could not care less for the "marvelous" food everyone else is eating. I am very happy with what I carry along.

Don't feel I am ignoring your messages. I would love to be able to eat grains. It is easy and comfortable but... it does not help with the cravings. Now if only I could improve my genes on a no grain diet  .

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Mrs T O+
Saturday, December 6, 2008, 7:29pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Concealed Carry Gatherer! SWAMI Explorer Blend
Kyosha Nim
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Tell Christopher who posted that he changed from hunter to paleo diet b/c he couldn't handle grains & beans as well as recommended.


Interested in nutrition, lactation, religion, politics; love to be around people; talkative, sensitive, goofy; a "fishy Christian" ><>; left-handed; lived on a farm, small town & big city; love BTD/GTD; A staunch La Leche League veteran; b. 10/1947 Check BTD/GTD on facebook!
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Susana
Saturday, December 6, 2008, 8:04pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1 Hunter 51%
Kyosha Nim
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I did tell him about this thread. Thank you Mrs. T  

It is interesting he mentions a decrease consumption of vegetable oils. I do fine with olive but Accidental Chef also Hunter prefers ghee to veg oils. I have no intention of living without olive oil .

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Henriette Bsec
Saturday, December 6, 2008, 8:12pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

swamied nomad chameleon receptor worldview
Kyosha Nim
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Well the only veggie oils I do well on is Olive and coconut oil... but I have noticed that I put weight on easier with olive oil than butter/ghee and coconut oil...


ENFP -naturalist, visual/spatial and musical/verbal/chatty Dane- Mother to DD Emma age 19,
0 rh- secr ( Hunter or Explorer )
Diamonds, superfoods, Neutral,*black dots, avoids
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Susana
Saturday, December 6, 2008, 10:50pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1 Hunter 51%
Kyosha Nim
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Lloyd, sorry to be a nuisance but, why do you think your triglycerides have gone down so much?

I wonder if the grain restriction can cause more carbohydrate resistance thus more insulin thus higher triglycerides . I am assuming here the triglycerides are caused by high insulin levels. Or So many years on BTD/GTD has finally resolved your condition. Results of a nutritional test published in the New England Journal of Medicine the  "Mediterranean diet" does better on Fasting Glucose and insulin in diabetics than "regular" folks. But then again some say the results are such because "med diet" has olive oil while the low carb group not necessarily . And you have reduced your olive oil . I may be completely off among other things becuse this research does not have BT under consideration. But having fun playing doctor. http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/359/3/229/F4

I agree the drop in LDL is not significant but I rather have it this way than the other way round. Four points up

The numbers are very good. I am very happy for you. I hope your fatigue issues get resolved. You exercise and participate frequently in this forum and GTD so fortunately it leaves you room for some enjoyment .

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