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Can someone give me some wisdom on phytic acid?  This thread currently has 1,389 views. Print Print Thread
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JJR
Thursday, November 10, 2011, 10:23pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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My head is spinning.  

First off, I want to say this.  When I don't have the energy to make a grain, by soaking and what not I eat rice cakes.  And they seem to digest fine for me.  I think.  They don in my stomach at least.  And I don't think they stop me up.  Or haven't thus far.  I will say that about 2 years ago, I'd buy the lundberghs, until I noticed that the Quacker Oats just seem to digest easier.  That said, I'm not real sure if the Quaker oats are all that healthy, as I'm skeptical of any large manufacture.  But, I could be wrong.  The lundbergh's are just denser.  I should try them again sometime, they're just more expensive.  

Anyone else on here just eat rice cakes for their grain?


Lately, I've gone through a germaphobic phase.  And for some reason the idea of cultured foods and such is giving me the heebie jeebies.  My Doctor really wants me to eat more cultured vegetables.  And I think he's probably right.  I think it has helped me digest in the past.  But also, in very small amounts, it messes with me.  Like, I'm probably detoxing, but it seems like a tremendous strain on my body.  I don't know if it's because of all the bad bacteria in my gut or what, but I just don't want to do it.  

Now, the only grains I eat are oatmeal and brown rice.  I used to eat quinoa, but it started to mess with me.  But, I do have to admit, I was always soaking it with in an acidulated water.  I think that in itself started me questioning this whole thing.  Because I love quinoa.  But supposedly it is very high in phytic acid.  And oats too.  And then there is rice.  And the nuts too.  I don't always have time to soak nuts and dehydrate them.  I've been doing all this for two years and I just don't know if it's helping, hurting, or neither.  I some respects my digestion seems to be better, but in others, it seems even more sensitive.  This may be because of the issues I have.  

And then, I started reading up on this some more and the latest entry in here:http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/living-with-phytic-acid

Says that they just really don't know about nuts.  I think they taste better, especially walnuts and pecans, but if it's not doing anything, what is the point?  It also suggested roasting without soaking, it appears or just cooking nuts in general might be helpful.  I could see that.  But it seems contradictory to their stance in the past.  And then there is Brown Rice.  The Nourishing Traditions book says brown rice really doesn't need to be soaked.  And the website here, which seems to be contradictory to that.  And they are both part of the Westin A Price Foundation, encouraging different methods.  So which is correct?  The book, or the latest entry by Rami?  

And then, it sounds like Dr.D doesn't really seem to think it makes a whole bit of difference, but I've never seen him say it in so many words.  I saw the one thread that seemed to point out that the Phytic Acid might actually help the telomeres in Warriors.  But what about the rest of us?????????

So, I'm wanting some opinions.  It does seem to me, that the "goopier" the grains I've eaten from soaking does seem to help digestion when I eat them.  On the top end.  But for oats I bought the quick oats and was wondering if that might not just help out with digestion.  And then I thought, well maybe I should try a slow cooker for oats and rice, as it seems less likely to harbor bad bacteria as a warm bowl out on the countertop. And the gal I work with at my doctors office, who uses these techniques, says she doesn't soak brown rice.  Just cooks it slowly.  

But the fact of the matter is, I'm confused and questioning it now.  Can we beat this dead horse again?  Have I brought up anything new?  Is Dr.D willing to spell it out here if he thinks it's actually better to not soak them?  It sounds like that is the case, but I'm not completely sure.  And Lola, who is like the resident guru, is a soaker, sprouter and fermenter.  I'm not sure how to wrap my brain around it all.  I guess I have a hard time listening to my own intuition.  But, there is also a proverb that says a multitude of counselors is a good thing.

Any and all comments from anyone is welcomed.  Sorry to type so much.


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Lola
Friday, November 11, 2011, 1:03am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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JJR
Friday, November 11, 2011, 1:24am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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I already viewed that one, and others.  It wasn't that helpful.  It was that link to the WAPF that is creating all the questions in me.


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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ruthiegirl
Friday, November 11, 2011, 2:19am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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I personally don't have the patience to soak grains before cooking. It requires advanced planning and counter space, and I don't have any problem digesting unsoaked grains, so I don't bother. If I did well on rye, I'd probably make sourdough bread rather than baking with commercial yeast, but I don't do well on rye, and my kids do just fine on unsoaked/unsprouted/"un-sourdoughed" baked goods.

I do soak squash seeds before soaking- it's easy enough to separate them when I cut up a squash to cook, soak in salt water until I have time to clean the strings off, and rinse and roast the next day. But if I wasn't fussing with the seeds anyway, I wouldn't bother. I also get my probiotics from fermented beet kvass.

I still think that traditional ways of preparing grains are "better" just because they've withstood the test of time. Sourdough is "how bread was made" until commercial yeast was available. But I'm not convinced that it makes THAT much difference for any individual member of my family, so it's not worth my time.

Soaking grains may be worth your time if it improves your digestion and/or assimilation. If you find that it makes little difference, then stop doing it.

If you need probiotics, but you're getting the "heebie jeebies" from the thought of eating "food that's been sitting on my counter for days" then maybe buy foods that are already fermented? If you can have yogurt or kefir, you can buy one or both of those in the store, refrigerated, and you keep it refrigerated at home. That might be mentally more acceptable.

I also think you'd benefit from Bach Flower Remedies. I'm thinking maybe Crab Apple for "feeling unclean" and White Chestnut for "obsessive thoughts." But I'm not a practitioner and you may need different remedies in addition to or instead of those.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah (in Israel for the school year), 17yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Dianne
Friday, November 11, 2011, 2:31am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I soak a mixture of 1/2 cup oat bran & 1/4 cup of amaranth in a covered bowl overnight with room temperature filtered water. Last night I added a few tablespoons of kombucha and I liked what it did to the flavour and was it very digestible.
I strain it in the morning and then cook it in a small pan with more filtered water. You do not mention straining and cooking it. Do you do this? If you do, you surely don't have to worry about ingesting bad bacteria. (I am big on having a hygienic kitchen and I eat this with no problems whatsoever.
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C_Sharp
Friday, November 11, 2011, 3:03am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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Quoted from JJR
I already viewed that one, and others.  It wasn't that helpful.  It was that link to the WAPF that is creating all the questions in me.


You may want to look at what else is said on Weston Price website and think about what their agenda might be.


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JJR
Friday, November 11, 2011, 3:47am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from C_Sharp


You may want to look at what else is said on Weston Price website and think about what their agenda might be.


What might that be?  I know there is the whole thing about them not liking soy at all, but I think they at least say "fermented soy" is OK.  But otherwise, I don't really know what you mean by agenda.  The book "Nourishing Traditions" seems to have a lot of good info about food and what it does in the body.  Maybe it's all hogwash.  But I don't think it's all bad.


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Victoria
Friday, November 11, 2011, 4:38am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from JJR

Anyone else on here just eat rice cakes for their grain?


The only grain I eat is rice cakes.  
Cooked whole grains just feel way too heavy for my body, so I don't bother.

I'll have one or two rice cakes every day - Lundberg Organic Sweet Mochi Rice Cakes (Mochi Rice with Brown Rice) are my favorite, followed by the Organic Salted Brown Rice Cakes.  I always lightly toast them and put something on top, such as almond butter with blackstrap molasses, ghee with nutritional yeast, melted cheese, etc.



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Lola
Friday, November 11, 2011, 5:56am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I have foccacia handy made from a mix of my compliant sprouted flours

my daughter is a fan and raids my fridge whenever she visits, which is daily!!! haha


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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JJR
Friday, November 11, 2011, 4:43pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Victoria


The only grain I eat is rice cakes.  
Cooked whole grains just feel way too heavy for my body, so I don't bother.

I'll have one or two rice cakes every day - Lundberg Organic Sweet Mochi Rice Cakes (Mochi Rice with Brown Rice) are my favorite, followed by the Organic Salted Brown Rice Cakes.  I always lightly toast them and put something on top, such as almond butter with blackstrap molasses, ghee with nutritional yeast, melted cheese, etc.



Interesting.  I never heard of Mochi rice.  I'll have to look at the store sometime.  So you seem to do well on just rice cakes, eh?  The Nourishing Traditions book really doesn't like them, for some reason.  I don't really understand their reasoning for that.  They say it gets "too heated" or something.  Well, now I see they're saying that about cereals, and I don't know if it's the same process or not.  But supposedly the "extrusion" process is too hot and makes oils rancid and kills vitamins.  What about cooking it though?  Maybe they're made really hot.  Well, I don't know, I like them too.


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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C_Sharp
Friday, November 11, 2011, 4:52pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from JJR

Interesting.  I never heard of Mochi rice.  I'll have to look at the store sometime.  


In the US, look for it in the refrigerated food cases (occasionally frozen)


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ABJoe
Friday, November 11, 2011, 5:04pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from JJR
Anyone else on here just eat rice cakes for their grain?

Now, the only grains I eat are oatmeal and brown rice.  I used to eat quinoa, but it started to mess with me.

I eat rice cakes, but they aren't my exclusive grain.  I also eat oatmeal, brown rice and not so often quinoa - as it is more expensive than the other two...

I don't soak any grain, as I don't seem to be bothered by not soaking...  Although, maybe I just don't know the difference since I have never soaked them...

I eat yogurt, but haven't started fermenting any vegetables, etc...  I take Polyflora for my probiotics at this time.

I don't believe you need to question to this level.  There are germs all over, but there are very few that are going to overrun the body if you focus on rebuilding your gut flora with proper balance and eating superfoods.

If I were you, when I started getting antsy about all of these other concerns, I'd start using my relaxation techniques.  IMO, the stress is worse than not soaking, fermenting, or any of the rest of it.


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Sahara
Friday, November 11, 2011, 5:10pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I do not really have the patience to soak either though I am aware of the phytic acid, it doesn't agree with me.  Oats can sometimes be better than brown rice but there's the weight gain thing from oats......

Here's a post on soaking and fermenting from Mark's Daily Apple.  Mark Sisson is a blood type O and is anti grains:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/soaked-sprouted-fermented-grains/
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JJR
Friday, November 11, 2011, 10:15pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Well Sahara, I think that guy has got some good things to say, but it's a little over the top as far as grains being toxic.  As far as we know, some of us need some.   I'm guessing.  But I may just do like you Joe, and not for a while and see if it changes anything.  I'm not sure about the nuts.  Walnuts just taste so much better.  Although TJ was saying he rinses them before eating and that might help with that too.  Maybe I could rinse and throw them in the oven for a quick roast.  I don't know.  

Yeah, I'm causing myself a lot of consternation over this.  I was just wanting some back up ideas for when I don't have the time and energy to soak.  I wonder what ribbit does.


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Spazcat
Saturday, November 12, 2011, 5:19am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Somewhere in an older thread Dr. D mentioned that phytic acid was actually beneficial for Hunters and colon health, and was actually one of the reasons Hunters get some grain servings despite being the most "paleo" GT.  It was enough for me to quit worrying about soaking, and actually to make sure I started to include more in my diet.  Not sure how this would apply to other GT's though.

I never noticed a difference when I did soak anyway.  I do still soak nuts and then dehydrate as I like how they come out.
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KimonoKat
Saturday, November 12, 2011, 3:56pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Lundberg Organic Sweet Mochi Rice Cakes

These are my FAVORITE rice cakes. Absolutely, hands down the best rice cakes ever. Unfortunately, I have portion control issues   (For me, it's like trying to eat a single sweet potato chip.)    so I don't keep rice cakes in the house.


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KimonoKat
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Mochi rice is "sweet rice."  It has a sweeter flavor, and is more starchy.

For basic rice, we perfer basmati. We think it's the most flavorful.  We will make our own rice flour out of it.


Knowledge is power.  SWAMI gives you the diet that will unlock the key to better health, and it's all based on your unique individuality.
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JJR
Saturday, November 12, 2011, 7:40pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Thank you for all the suggestions.  I like basmati too.  I think I'm going to try just cooking rice for a while.  I need to learn to make it with veggies.  I'm still not sure I want to mix meat with it yet.  But I have mixed puree'd pumpkin with rice and oh man, that was delicious and satisfying!!!  I need to try that with rice cakes because they sometimes feel like they don't fill me up at all.  Which is actually a good thing, because for a long time, my hunger was much worse.


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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JJR
Sunday, November 27, 2011, 7:20pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Here's something I've figured out since eating these grains with out soaking.  My stomach says opposite of what the nourishing traditions book says.  It claims oats are much less digestible than rice.  Maybe that's true in the lower GI, but when I eat oats, it seems to digest easier in my stomach than rice.  So far.  Although the rice has it's upsides.  Eating it takes much longer before I'm hungry again.  But it does sit a little bit harder too.  It may be that I should cook the rice longer and in a broth or something.  It's just been water lately.  I'll have to try different kinds of rice too.  This is long grain brown I've eaten.  

I just know that oats are really hitting the spot lately.  Might be the time of year.  The rice tastes good too, but not quite as satisfying.  

I've already discussed the nuts in another thread.  But raw pecans are really good.  So far raw walnuts, the ones I have, are totally too bitter.  They may be rancid, or something.  

I think sooner or later I might soak rice in the fridge.  And maybe walnuts too.  But I want to try and eat these things without being soaked for a while, just to see.  I don't think it will hurt, since Dr.D seems to think it's not necessary and there may actually be some upsides to SOME phytic acid in your gut.    


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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