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BTD Forums    Diet and Nutrition    SWAMI Xpress  ›  IgG Food Antibody Results do not match my SWAMI *
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IgG Food Antibody Results do not match my SWAMI *  This thread currently has 5,929 views. Print Print Thread
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Andrea AWsec
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 1:48pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Patty I not back tracking on your issues. I merely provided you with information you can do with what you want.

I am not here to argue with you.

You are testing and testing-- I am not sure where you are headed with all this.

Here we support the BTD/GTD and SWAMI as a lifestyle. You seem to want your cake and to eat it too.

In the end it is always up to you.



MIFHI

"Do not try to satisfy your vanity by teaching a great many things. Awaken people's curiosity. It is enough to open minds; do not overload them." Anatole France

"Healthy people have the least overt symptoms from eating avoid foods." Dr. D'Adamo
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PCUK-Positive
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 1:55pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Patty i think we should start a "argue that a black cow is white" Thread perhaps if you got another user name you could sit there all day and argue with yourself lol

I suspect you are not blood type O at all, you are the start of a new blood type "AB+O" that can eat whatever makes you feel good with no apparent downside, for the short term. I suspect that i shall leave you to it.

ether that or your real name is mercola, on here to wear us down lol

all meant in jest of course, whether a true word or not



Kind Regards PC. FIfHI Swami III Pro

Partner (F) is O+(Non) MN. Duffy Fy(a+b+),  Lewis (a+ b-) Gatherer.
DD ( is O+(Non)NN, Duffy Fy(a+b-) Lewis (a+b-) Gatherer
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Patty H
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 2:02pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Captain_Janeway
Patty H.


It's hard to make sense of all this. An IgE antibody is an allergic antibody so if you have any antibodies to specific foods that are IgE then at one time or another you might have been allergic to that food.IgG is one of those antibodies that shows up as a secondary immune response. if you are exposed to a certain virus for example the primary immune respone came by way from the production of IgM antibodies. A second exposure to the same virus will invoke an IgG response. This is what protects you from having a second bout with the exact same virus. But mutations in the virus can change its antigenic structure enough that your natural immunity is unable to afford much protection.

Different parts of the immune system have control over which antibodies are produced and when. IgG antibodies can be set off with the help of the T cells and macrophages. The plasma cells are essentially responsible for the production of our humoral (antibody) immunity. But Tcells may play an important role in food sensitivities and or allergies as regularly as a humoral response.

The answer to your question is actually quite complex and not as simple as antigen/antibody reactions.

Perhaps some foods items you have not had even a primary reaction to so that would explain no secondary response therefore no IgG responses to those foods.

As to what Dr. D. was saying in his post antibodies are essentially specific as to what they react to but sometimes they can react non-specifically as well.


Captain_Janeway, I had no reactions at all on the IgE testing.  Plus my total IgE if 46.9.  I am well within the reference range of <= 87.

Of all the foods and spices tested on the IgG, I tested high to curry, moderate to kidney beans, and low to string beans, oysters, sardines, corn and pinto beans.  All other foods are fine.

On my IgA for Celiac and Gluten Sensitivity, my total IgA is 227, Reference Range 69-446
Anti-tissue Transglutaminase IgA (tTG IgA) is <1.2, Reference Range <4.0
Anti-Deamidated Gliadin IgA (DGP IgA) is 5, Reference Range <20
Anti-Gliadin IgA (AGA IgA) is 11, Reference Range <20
Anti-Gliadin IgG (AGA IgG) is 4, Reference Range < 20

These results indicate NOT Celiac and NO Gluten Sensitivity


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Mother
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 2:23pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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WOW PC, that was so helpful. Sarcsasm doesn't suit you, or anyone


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ruthiegirl
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 2:31pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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From what I've gleamed of the scientific stuff posted in this thread, it seems that non-secretors have a weaker IgG immune response overall. So it makes sense that you don't have "obvious allergic" reactions to some of these foods. It doesn't mean that these foods are "perfectly safe for you to eat." It just means that your immune system isn't reacting to them.

Quoted from Dr D
The great majority of lectins are ABO specific; not specific for the minor blood groups.


This means that your body still gets damaged by lectins that are bad for type Os, because you're still a type O individual.

Lectin reactions can be subtle and don't always show up on currently available blood tests. When your immune system reacts to threats, it can show up on those IgG or IgA or IgE tests. If your immune system ignores the damage, there's nothing for a lab to test for.

Quoted from ABJoe
It would probably depend largely on how the Mg antigen changed the blood type "shape"...


I think he's asking if the Mg antigen changes the chemical shape of the red blood cells enough for it to change how lectins respond to your blood.

I haven't studied lectins under a microscope, but it seems to me that the Mg antigen is probably NOT going to affect lectin reactions. It does seem to affect things like carbohydrate tolerance and the ability to digest fats and proteins, but that's not directly happening in the blood stream. That's how your genes are affecting your pancreas, liver, stomach acid production, etc. You can tolerate a much higher level of carbs in your diet than the "typical O" and, simultaneously, you can't fully digest animal fats and proteins as well as the "typical O." But I don't see any evidence that lectin response should be different.

What that means, IMO, is that you still need to follow your SWAMI food lists, minus the half dozen or so foods eliminated by IgG testing. Wheat and barley are still bad news for Os, even if you need to eat a lot more grains than I do, and even if you don't seem to have a problem with gluten specifically. You're probably OK eating black-dot rye on a regular basis. Navy beans are still a poor choice for you, even if you need more vegetable protiens. Even O nonnies get a decent variety of beans and grains, even if the "typical" O nonnie gets teeny portions of them. You can have black beans and rice, or great northern beans with quinoa, and as an O nonnie you probably can have lentils.

It's up to you if you want to be less  compliant with those foods that don't cause any obvious reactions. I don't reccomend it, but that's your decision to make. More important than your occasional restaurant avoids, IMO, is what you prepare for yourself on a daily basis.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Patty H
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 2:39pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Andrea AWsec
Patty I not back tracking on your issues. I merely provided you with information you can do with what you want.

I am not here to argue with you.

You are testing and testing-- I am not sure where you are headed with all this.

Here we support the BTD/GTD and SWAMI as a lifestyle. You seem to want your cake and to eat it too.

In the end it is always up to you.



Andrea, it is not my intent to argue with anyone.  I am merely seeking information.  And yes - I am testing and testing.  Why? Because the testing is giving my doctor and I a clear picture of my genetic tendencies and other current health issues that are specific to me at this point in my life.  I am not sure how that would be considered a bad thing.  Given my family history, we both feel that the testing has helped us to identify my own personal risks.  This testing has also set a path towards wellness.  Diet and exercise is certainly a part of that path, but it is not the only path.

This thread is four pages long.  I have gotten a lot of great advice, but I still don't understand how IgG, IgE and IgA reactions and lectin reactions are different, why one might be more important than the other and how to meld the two.


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Spring
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 4:02pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Right now, I feel a bit like the odd man (woman) out, if you know what I mean  ...Patty

I guess a lot of us have felt this way at times, Patty. It is not a comfortable feeling! What we eat is a very important part of our lives - if we don't eat we will die - literally. So it is no wonder that when things are not making sense, and our bodies are not reacting the way we or someone else would expect to something that is either supposed to be good or bad for us that we become disturbed and very uncomfortable and anxious. I'm sitting here wondering how the health in your family members has played out while dealing with your type situation. Maybe you have discussed this already. Anyway, if I were you I would eat a basic diet that is the best you can come up between these two regimens until you can afford the further testing and consultation! Don't kill yourself trying to figure all this out in the meantime - PLEASE! The best to you in your efforts!


"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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Spring
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 4:13pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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From Lola:

IMMUNITY AND RESISTANCE

Evidence suggests that non-secretors have lower levels of the antibodies IgG and IgA. The lower levels of IgA are especially significant and may help explain why non-secretors tend to have more frequent problems with heart valve disturbance though to be the result of infection of the bloodstream due to dental work. One of the innate defenses against superficial infections by Candida species appears to be the ability of an individual to secrete the water-soluble form of his ABO blood group antigens into body fluids. Since they cannot do this, it is not surprising to find that non-secretors also carry more Candida organisms in their mouth and digestive tract than secretors. Non-secretors appear to have an increase in the prevalence of a variety of autoimmune diseases including ankylosing spondylitis, reactive arthritis, psoriatic arthropathy, Sjogren�s syndrome, multiple sclerosis, and Grave�s disease. Non-secretors appear to be at extra risk for recurrent urinary tract infections.


Didn't I read somewhere lately that Dr. D. had said that dumping a Deflect  in your mouth and swishing it around would temporarily make a Secretor out of a nonSecretor? Maybe it was in a unique situation, but I remember reading that.


"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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Captain_Janeway
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 4:27pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Patty H


Thank you for such a detailed response.  You obviously know what your are talking about.  Would it be possible for you to explain this in more laymens terms?  I reacted to very few foods.  In fact, my only strong response was to curry powder.  I had a moderate response to kidney beans and a mild response to a few other foods listed earlier in this post.  Are you saying that at one time I may have been allergic to things like wheat and dairy, but now I am not?  Sorry to sound like such a dummy here, but I really want to understand what you are saying.  THANK YOU!!!  Patty


Even if you had a previous allergy to a certain food, lets say peanuts for example,  that would have shown up as an IgE reaction and you knew you were allergic to peanuts then over time when you avoid that food the IgE level will decrease over time.

Once the stimulus has been removed over a period of time the level of IgE, IgG, or IgA will decrease. This is how the immune response works and thank goodness it does. So yes your blood work on IgE can look like you are not allergic to anything now. But our immune system is made up of memory T cells so if you ingest something that you were previously allergic to you may not necessarily have an immediate response. But if you keep on  and on and on ingesting this same food then you can most certainly revert back to being allergic to it.

I hope this clears up your question.


Rh Neg, Le(a+b-), NN, Fy(a-b+)

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gardengirl
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 4:38pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I'm also with the - it's your choice. If something isn't working for you, don't do it. Was the BTD working for you? It worked for me when I could stick to it. I also had the FST and yes, a lot of it contradicts the BTD but I have to go on trial and error. I have low reaction to grains and wheats but my experience is they okay in small moderation (as my SWAMI allows) and not even every day. My FST also gave a 0 to apples but I do feel not right within an hour or so of eating apple  but I can have applesauce, apple butter, apple cider or baked apples with no effects? So, I do but not raw. I am using a combination of my SWAMI, my FST and what feels wrong and right. Yeah, it would be so easy to just have someone say "just eat this" and it is perfectly fitted to me but that isn't the case with me. It's very confusing, I know as I flip flop all over in what I "believe" but I more of less know what I have to do and have to just do it. Sorry, Nike.
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Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 4:41pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Patty H


Dr. D, what I don't understand is the difference between IgG, IgE and IgA reactions versus lectin reactions.

If the IgG and IgE panels say I can tolerate wheat and dairy (among other things) and my IgA Celiac panel says I don't have Celiac and I can tolerate gluten, how would the lectin reaction be different?  I am hoping someone can explain this to me  


Patty, he stated earlier it's a different scientific way of looking at what it does to your system.  He showed the pros and the cons for each.  Have you ever read the Encyclopedia by Dr.D?  It explains what lectins are and what kind of damage they can do.  But it in short, lectins that react with your blood type can gum up your system.  The food "agglutinates" with your blood.  Think, "Clump".  In some cases to the point that it can be harmful to your organs, system, create inflammation, etc etc.  That's it in a super simple form.  And probably not a good one.


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Captain_Janeway
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 4:42pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Patty H


Captain_Janeway, I had no reactions at all on the IgE testing.  Plus my total IgE if 46.9.  I am well within the reference range of <= 87.

Of all the foods and spices tested on the IgG, I tested high to curry, moderate to kidney beans, and low to string beans, oysters, sardines, corn and pinto beans.  All other foods are fine.

On my IgA for Celiac and Gluten Sensitivity, my total IgA is 227, Reference Range 69-446
Anti-tissue Transglutaminase IgA (tTG IgA) is <1.2, Reference Range <4.0
Anti-Deamidated Gliadin IgA (DGP IgA) is 5, Reference Range <20
Anti-Gliadin IgA (AGA IgA) is 11, Reference Range <20
Anti-Gliadin IgG (AGA IgG) is 4, Reference Range < 20

These results indicate NOT Celiac and NO Gluten Sensitivity


Obviously no celiac or gluten sensitivity. Your IgA level is perfect it is in the midpoint of the range. Many celiacs have lower than normal IgA levels in their blood and this perhaps may be a cause for so many of their health issues.

IgA is a first line of defense found in your tears, saliva, GI fluids, and other body fluids. It protects us from all the nasties in our internal environment.



Rh Neg, Le(a+b-), NN, Fy(a-b+)

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Patty H
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 4:43pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Captain_Janeway


Even if you had a previous allergy to a certain food, lets say peanuts for example,  that would have shown up as an IgE reaction and you knew you were allergic to peanuts then over time when you avoid that food the IgE level will decrease over time.

Once the stimulus has been removed over a period of time the level of IgE, IgG, or IgA will decrease. This is how the immune response works and thank goodness it does. So yes your blood work on IgE can look like you are not allergic to anything now. But our immune system is made up of memory T cells so if you ingest something that you were previously allergic to you may not necessarily have an immediate response. But if you keep on  and on and on ingesting this same food then you can most certainly revert back to being allergic to it.

I hope this clears up your question.


Thank you, Captain_Janeway!  I really appreciate your detailed response.

Did you see where I posted my results in hopes that these might add more information.  I don't know whether the additional information adds anything new, but I thought I would post it.


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Captain_Janeway
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 4:49pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Patty H


Thank you, Captain_Janeway!  I really appreciate your detailed response.

Did you see where I posted my results in hopes that these might add more information.  I don't know whether the additional information adds anything new, but I thought I would post it.


All of those other tests are part of the celiac profile and shows how you react to gluten in an IgG or IgA fashion as well as how the tissue responds to it. That is if your tissues have created an autoimmune response to the gluten. Your tests do not show this.


Rh Neg, Le(a+b-), NN, Fy(a-b+)

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Patty H
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 5:12pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from JJR


Patty, he stated earlier it's a different scientific way of looking at what it does to your system.  He showed the pros and the cons for each.  Have you ever read the Encyclopedia by Dr.D?  It explains what lectins are and what kind of damage they can do.  But it in short, lectins that react with your blood type can gum up your system.  The food "agglutinates" with your blood.  Think, "Clump".  In some cases to the point that it can be harmful to your organs, system, create inflammation, etc etc.  That's it in a super simple form.  And probably not a good one.


Thank you, JJR.  I do understand the theory behind lectins.  What I don't understand is the relationship between lectin theory and IgG theory.  I guess I assumed that if a food caused my blood to agglutinate due to the lectins, this would also show up as an immune response on either the IgG, IgE or IgA.  Since that did not happen in my case, it is confusing to me how my immune response can show nothing yet a food is causing my blood to agglutinate.  I was under the impression that there is a definite correlation.  Auto-immune diseases are considered an evenutal outcome of a diet high in lectins which cause an over-active immune system, so I am wondering why, in my case, my immune system is not responding to dietary lectins.

I hope that makes sense.  I have struggled to put this question into words . . . I am not sure if I succeeded in stating my question clearly.  Maybe someone else can jump in to help me.


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ruthiegirl
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 5:28pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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My theory is that perhaps, your blood cells are agglutinating but your immune system may not be responding to it. Perhaps certain lectins only make your blood clump into really small clumps, and your immune system "ignores" clumps below a certain size.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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I agree with ruthie.  I think the Food allergy tests are immune based.  Lectins and agglutination may not show up the same way.  Just like the test doesn't show your assimilation of fats or your amino acid levels, etc etc.  It's a different test.

Have you tried Quinoa, Millet and Rice flours, etc?    There is so much more out there than wheat.  People use almond flours too.  Heck, if potatoes are OK for you, that'd probably be better than wheat products.  Possibly.  Or lentil flour.  Or just eat these in their whole grain state.  That's what I do.  Rice and oats.  Mmmmmmmm...


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Patty H
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 7:39pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ok, so I want to clear up a misconception here.  I am not saying I am going to go out and eat wheat daily.  What I did say in one of my earlier posts is that if I have wheat once in a while, I don't think it will hurt me.  

I ate very limited amounts of wheat and wheat products prior to the BTD/GTD.  I had also stopped eating a lot of sugar.  I have maintained a good weight for my height for over 26 years.  I have done that by limiting things like wheat, dairy and sugar.

I have no intention of going out and gorging on wheat and wheat products.    I am simply trying to incorporate this information.  I have considered oatmeal, since it is good for cholesterol, but I haven't done that either.  I am in the learning phase.  I am not looking to have my cake and eat it too, as it was put earlier.  I am simply trying to understand what my testing means in relationship to my current diet and my inability to break down dietary fat.  By the way, I wrote dietary fiber in my first post.  That is an error.  It is fat I have difficulty breaking down, so I wanted to clear up that as well.

I hope this puts the idea to rest that I plan to add wheat to my daily food intake  


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Patty H
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Quoted from Captain_Janeway


Obviously no celiac or gluten sensitivity. Your IgA level is perfect it is in the midpoint of the range. Many celiacs have lower than normal IgA levels in their blood and this perhaps may be a cause for so many of their health issues.

IgA is a first line of defense found in your tears, saliva, GI fluids, and other body fluids. It protects us from all the nasties in our internal environment.



Thank you for this interpretation, Captain_Janeway.  Can you, perhaps shed light on the difference between IgG, IgE and IgA reactions vs. lectin reactions?


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gardengirl
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 11:06pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Here is an article that gives information on lectins. It is given in a very simple way and from what I get out of it, you can't test if you are intolerant to lectins, well, you can but it's you doing your own work, trial and wait and see.
Hope it helps you out. For me, lectins are terrible, even though my IgG testing says they are fine. I sound "worse" off than you health wise so I see the damage immediately but less and less as I stay away from offending foods meaning, that they seem okay but if I over do it, watch out.
http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html
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Spring
Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 11:40pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Patty H
Ok, so I want to clear up a misconception here.  I am not saying I am going to go out and eat wheat daily.  What I did say in one of my earlier posts is that if I have wheat once in a while, I don't think it will hurt me.  

I ate very limited amounts of wheat and wheat products prior to the BTD/GTD.  I had also stopped eating a lot of sugar.  I have maintained a good weight for my height for over 26 years.  I have done that by limiting things like wheat, dairy and sugar.

I have no intention of going out and gorging on wheat and wheat products.    I am simply trying to incorporate this information.  I have considered oatmeal, since it is good for cholesterol, but I haven't done that either.  I am in the learning phase.  I am not looking to have my cake and eat it too, as it was put earlier.  I am simply trying to understand what my testing means in relationship to my current diet and my inability to break down dietary fat.  By the way, I wrote dietary fiber in my first post.  That is an error.  It is fat I have difficulty breaking down, so I wanted to clear up that as well.

I hope this puts the idea to rest that I plan to add wheat to my daily food intake  




"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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ABJoe
Wednesday, November 2, 2011, 12:33am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Patty H
What does that mean, ABJoe?


As you know from page 19 of Eat Right 4 Your Type, each of the blood type markers has a different antigen.  Pgs. 24-28 discuss how lectins adhere to blood cells of the various types - and Dr. D. has shown us which lectins adhere to which blood types.  

The question I had is if and how the Mg antigen would change the blood type marker significantly enough to limit the damaging work lectins do.  Dr. D. graciously stepped in and answered that minor antigens have very little effect.  This answers the question for me.


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Patty H
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Quoted from ABJoe


As you know from page 19 of Eat Right 4 Your Type, each of the blood type markers has a different antigen.  Pgs. 24-28 discuss how lectins adhere to blood cells of the various types - and Dr. D. has shown us which lectins adhere to which blood types.  

The question I had is if and how the Mg antigen would change the blood type marker significantly enough to limit the damaging work lectins do.  Dr. D. graciously stepped in and answered that minor antigens have very little effect.  This answers the question for me.


Thank you, ABJoe for responding.  I appreciate it!


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Quoted from Patty H


Thank you for this interpretation, Captain_Janeway.  Can you, perhaps shed light on the difference between IgG, IgE and IgA reactions vs. lectin reactions?


I have never studied lectins in any kind of detail so I am not really qualified to say what kind of humoral response would occur after exposure to lectins.

I have worked as a blood bank technologist for several years at a large University and you really don't work with lectins that often. Not as you might think anyway.

As I said earlier, T cell reactions, the cellular immune response, may play a role as well even more so than our antibody responses toward food allergies or food sensitivities.

Sorry, I wish I could be more help here.


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