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BTD Forums    Diet and Nutrition    SWAMI Xpress  ›  Would identical twins have the exact same SWAMI?
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Would identical twins have the exact same SWAMI?  This thread currently has 1,531 views. Print Print Thread
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ruthiegirl
Thursday, October 27, 2011, 1:38pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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This morning, I was thinking about my daughters' diets. I just got a SWAMI for DD1, but I can't afford to get one for DD2 yet. I wonder how much the two diets would differ. I'm pretty sure DD2 is an Explorer (I plan to re-measure her later today to see what the GTD book says about that.) DD1 is an Explorer on her SWAMI (even though she measured out to Gatherer when I measured her.) They're both O negative and have the exact same family history, and probabyl both Explorers. Their body measurements, however, are quite different from one another. DD2 is much shorter and curvier than DD1, with most of her height in her torso (when they were tots in the double stroller, people often thought they were twins, since their seated height has always been similar, even when they were 1 and 2 or 2 and 3.)

Could I put both girls on DD1's SWAMI for now? Or would I do better keeping DD2 on BTD until I can get a SWAMI for her? I'm not comfortable putting her strictly on the Explorer diet from the book, although I've already been cutting back on foods that are Explorer avoids/O neutrals (like nutritional yeast.)

I'm also wondering, just for curiosity's sake, how much identical siblings' SWAMIs would vary. They'd surely have the same family history and blood type- and could their prenatal environments vary all that much from one another's? They's have the exact same exposure to maternal diet, toxins, and stress, but I know that it is possible for them to be arranged in the womb in such a way that one gets more of the nutrients from the placenta. Would that make a significant difference to their health in later life? Could identical twins be different genotypes?


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Henriette Bsec
Thursday, October 27, 2011, 2:07pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I don´t know Ruthie- hopefully someone can step in.

But I am B  rh neg secretor - and  a nomad most of the time

My sister ( 2 years younger) is B rh neg sec as well
- but I would be very suprised if she was nomad.
She is almost 100 % sure gatherer.
Her life in the woomb was much differnt than mine- and she always seems a little more sick than I :

About your daughters and swami
I can´t afford the swami for Emma- so I have kept her on a O sec diet ( 90 % -sh eats some cheese and cream beeing scandinavian she seem to be ok with more dairy;))
I personally think the GTD diet is not good enough.
My  swami diet is sooo different compared to book  
and I would hate to restrict E more than she had to.... so I rather wait to get the proper diet for her.
However if she was sick I might start her on GTD
I have to remeasure her to figure out what she really is.


ENFP -naturalist, visual/spatial and musical/verbal/chatty Dane- Mother to DD Emma age 19,
0 rh- secr ( Hunter or Explorer )
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SandrAruba
Thursday, October 27, 2011, 2:14pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Interesting question indeed. I wonder if anyone knows the answer.

As for your daughters. I would keep nr. 2 on BTD until you can get her her own Swami. I think there will be a difference in them.




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Patty H
Thursday, October 27, 2011, 2:25pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ruthiegirl
This morning, I was thinking about my daughters' diets. I just got a SWAMI for DD1, but I can't afford to get one for DD2 yet. I wonder how much the two diets would differ. I'm pretty sure DD2 is an Explorer (I plan to re-measure her later today to see what the GTD book says about that.) DD1 is an Explorer on her SWAMI (even though she measured out to Gatherer when I measured her.) They're both O negative and have the exact same family history, and probabyl both Explorers. Their body measurements, however, are quite different from one another. DD2 is much shorter and curvier than DD1, with most of her height in her torso (when they were tots in the double stroller, people often thought they were twins, since their seated height has always been similar, even when they were 1 and 2 or 2 and 3.)

Could I put both girls on DD1's SWAMI for now? Or would I do better keeping DD2 on BTD until I can get a SWAMI for her? I'm not comfortable putting her strictly on the Explorer diet from the book, although I've already been cutting back on foods that are Explorer avoids/O neutrals (like nutritional yeast.)

I'm also wondering, just for curiosity's sake, how much identical siblings' SWAMIs would vary. They'd surely have the same family history and blood type- and could their prenatal environments vary all that much from one another's? They's have the exact same exposure to maternal diet, toxins, and stress, but I know that it is possible for them to be arranged in the womb in such a way that one gets more of the nutrients from the placenta. Would that make a significant difference to their health in later life? Could identical twins be different genotypes?


My guess is that identical twins might have different SWAMI's because of epigenetics.  My best friend growing up was an identical twin.  While she and her sister were very close, they also had a life apart from one another once they got to a certain age.  Their meals outside the home might be different enough that one twin would be more health conscious and another might be a junk food addict.  Who knows, though.  I could be totally wrong.  When my friends were small, they looked almost exactly alike.  As they grew, they began to look more and more like individuals.  Now, as adult women, they don't look that much alike and my mother can FINALLY tell them apart  


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geminisue
Thursday, October 27, 2011, 2:39pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I would think identical twins would be the same genotype, but depending on their personal health after getting older and away from each other, a swami'ed diet may be different.  I also feel if they have always lived together, and never married and drifted away, it would be the same.

fraternal twins, same sex or different sex, I would say could be very different by what they did and ate, but may still be same genotype, but different swami effects, same reasoning as above.

My father had a twin sister, they were born number 7 &8 of 15 children. They were number 14 and 15 to pass away, my father being the last, he failed fast after his twin passed away, it was like he lost himself when he didn't have her alive.  
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ABJoe
Thursday, October 27, 2011, 3:57pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ruthiegirl
I just got a SWAMI for DD1, but I can't afford to get one for DD2 yet. I wonder how much the two diets would differ. I'm pretty sure DD2 is an Explorer (I plan to re-measure her later today to see what the GTD book says about that.) DD1 is an Explorer on her SWAMI (even though she measured out to Gatherer when I measured her.) They're both O negative and have the exact same family history, and probably both Explorers. Their body measurements, however, are quite different from one another. DD2 is much shorter and curvier than DD1, with most of her height in her torso (when they were tots in the double stroller, people often thought they were twins, since their seated height has always been similar, even when they were 1 and 2 or 2 and 3.)

Could I put both girls on DD1's SWAMI for now?

My suggestion would be to measure DD2 to see just how many differences there are.  This will at least let you know where the variations are in the ratios, fingerprints, etc.  If you determine that the differences are minimal, then the diets would probably be close enough to use one plan.  If there are a large number of differences, then it may be best to continue with BTD for her...
Quoted from ruthiegirl
I'm also wondering, just for curiosity's sake, how much identical siblings' SWAMIs would vary. They'd surely have the same family history and blood type- and could their prenatal environments vary all that much from one another's? They's have the exact same exposure to maternal diet, toxins, and stress, but I know that it is possible for them to be arranged in the womb in such a way that one gets more of the nutrients from the placenta. Would that make a significant difference to their health in later life? Could identical twins be different genotypes?

I suppose it is possible to have 1 identical twin get different nutrition amounts during gestation, but the most difference would be exercise and food type / amount variations...  In the majority of identical twins I've seen, I would expect them to be close enough to use the same SWAMI.

Fraternal twins would (IMO) be little different than any two siblings.  While they do share a common pre-natal experience which gives them a special bond throughout life, they can have different blood types, different secretor status, etc.



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Dr. D
Thursday, October 27, 2011, 4:05pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted Text
Would identical twins have the exact same SWAMI?


Nope.


A whole system is a living system is a learning system.’ -Stewart Brand
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Henriette Bsec
Thursday, October 27, 2011, 4:24pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Thanks Dr D  


ENFP -naturalist, visual/spatial and musical/verbal/chatty Dane- Mother to DD Emma age 19,
0 rh- secr ( Hunter or Explorer )
Diamonds, superfoods, Neutral,*black dots, avoids
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san j
Thursday, October 27, 2011, 6:37pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I just logged on and saw the question and thought, immediately, Of Course Not. Jumped in to answer and saw Peter's One Word Answer: Touché.

In the absence of his authority, of course, I'll tell you what my immediate uneducated response was to the question, so as to stimulate further discussion:

I don't do SWAMI myself, but I do read the posts of many who do, and how they are constantly readjusting the input based on this and that variable In Real Time. The whole point of SWAMI is to factor in the sorts of variations that would likewise distinguish identical twins from one another. Two individuals are not only NOT confronted with exactly the same circumstances every minute, they also can not be expected to - 100% of the time - respond to those stimuli identically.

One small illustration: While one twin is developing a medical condition, perhaps, the other may not be. When one twin sprains her ankle and ends up with a hip or back problem or with a weight problem during the convalescence, the other is not. Assume a lifetime of days such as these, and There You Are!


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Chloe
Thursday, October 27, 2011, 7:52pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from san j
I just logged on and saw the question and thought, immediately, Of Course Not. Jumped in to answer and saw Peter's One Word Answer: Touché.

In the absence of his authority, of course, I'll tell you what my immediate uneducated response was to the question, so as to stimulate further discussion:

I don't do SWAMI myself, but I do read the posts of many who do, and how they are constantly readjusting the input based on this and that variable In Real Time. The whole point of SWAMI is to factor in the sorts of variations that would likewise distinguish identical twins from one another. Two individuals are not only NOT confronted with exactly the same circumstances every minute, they also can not be expected to - 100% of the time - respond to those stimuli identically.

One small illustration: While one twin is developing a medical condition, perhaps, the other may not be. When one twin sprains her ankle and ends up with a hip or back problem or with a weight problem during the convalescence, the other is not. Assume a lifetime of days such as these, and There You Are!


Good deductive reasoning...I was also thinking that identical twins wouldn't have the same fingerprint patterns.

I found this online:

How Identical Twins are Not Identical

There are two main factors that cause identical twins not to be truly identical:
Identical twins share the same DNA - but do not have identical DNA. When the egg splits into two halves to form identical twins, the DNA may not divide equally between the two cells. The basic concept is similar to when you cut an apple in half, the two halves may not look the same.

DNA differences of identical twins revolve around the mitochondrial DNA (DNA that is not located in the nucleus of a cell).

Mitochondrial is DNA passed on to the child by Mom. A fertilized egg will have Mom's mitochondrial DNA, half of Mom's nuclear DNA, and half of Dad's nuclear DNA. When the fertilized egg splits into two, the twins will each have identical nuclear DNA, but not EXACTLY identical mitochondrial DNA. Physical differences in identical twins are contributed, in part, to how much and how similar the mitochondrial DNA each twin inherited from Mom expresses itself.

Environmental factors both prenatal (for instance, one twin having more room in the womb, viruses, genetic missteps, Twin-to-Twin Transfusion Syndrome, etc.) and after the babies are born (from something as minor as appetite to illness or accidents). Prenatal developmental differences can mean that one twin didn't quite "finish" a developmental stage that his or her twin did.



"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"
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Kumar
Sunday, October 30, 2011, 10:54am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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The environment in the womb, depending on the exact location of the twins, might be different for them and so on. Why not put them both on BTD for as long as it works and gradually move to GTD or Swami?



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JJR
Sunday, October 30, 2011, 5:04pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Snowflakes.   We're all snowflakes.  I think the "Identical" in "identical twins" is just a way to say : 1 egg 2 sperm as opposed to fraternal : two eggs 2 sperm.  I think that's how it goes.  Regardless, identical is a term, not necessarily a genetical certainty.  At least that's how I'd see it.  I don't have any in my family.  Fraternal twins yes.  I had some identical twins as friends a long time ago.  They looked very close, but not exact.  Once you knew them enough, you knew the difference.  And they acted a little different too.


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"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Sahara
Sunday, October 30, 2011, 5:34pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Slightly OT but I've started wondering about my sister's kids who aren't identical twins.....  How old do kids have to be to be genotyped?  The oldest one is a bit dominant and demands milk.  Am pretty sure they're both Os.....  My sister and I aren't twins but am also pretty sure we are the same genotype simply because both parents are though not 100% sure about my mom.
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DoS
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Aesthetics commonly looked at have little to do with Phenotype. For the same reason people trying to prove one race is superior by looking at real genetic markers always fail. Example.. extra cusp on the 5th tooth is found on a variety of ethnic backgrounds despite skin color.

In other words the twins might have similar looking faces but that does not mean they have the same finger prints, finger ratios, leg bone lengths, intestines, or much of anything beside the same faces and skin tone.
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Ribbit
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And every so often, in a set of identicals, you get one that's right handed and one that's left handed. (DH says in those cases, from his understanding, they weren't far off from being Siamese twins.) Often one is bigger and stronger.  One got more nutrients.  They might have shared a placenta, maybe not.  They  might have shared an amniotic sac, maybe not.  Lots of factors come in to play.


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C_Sharp
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Quoted from JJR
I think the "Identical" in "identical twins" is just a way to say : 1 egg 2 sperm as opposed to fraternal : two eggs 2 sperm.  


With identical twins, one sperm fertilize a single egg to create an ovum. Early in the development of the embryo resulting from this union, a split occurs creating two embryos with the same genetic profile.

One egg combining with two sperm creates 'semi-identical' twins. Embryos resulting from this combination normally do not survive. This condition can also be called "half-identical" twins.


MIfHI                            I follow a SWAMI diet.
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C_Sharp
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One small factor:

Identical twins have different fingerprint patterns, which affects SWAMI diet recommendations.


MIfHI                            I follow a SWAMI diet.
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Patty H
Monday, October 31, 2011, 1:14am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Ribbit
And every so often, in a set of identicals, you get one that's right handed and one that's left handed. (DH says in those cases, from his understanding, they weren't far off from being Siamese twins.) Often one is bigger and stronger.  One got more nutrients.  They might have shared a placenta, maybe not.  They  might have shared an amniotic sac, maybe not.  Lots of factors come in to play.


Yes!  I mentioned my identical twins who were my best friends growing up.  One is right handed and one is left handed.  While they were extremely difficult to tell apart as children, there is not question as to who is who as adults, so again my personal experience with identical twins is that they would have different SWAMI's.  In fact, I just found out that one had been diagnosed with a mild form of MS.  I will take note to see if the other is diagnosed as well, now that this issue has been raised, since it stands to reason that if they have identical SWAMI's, they would also have identical challenges regarding health.


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jayneeo
Monday, October 31, 2011, 6:41am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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mom is an identical twin....she had 4 kids, her twin had none....the twin drank more....etc....so they have certainly taken in different influences...
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JJR
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Quoted from C_Sharp


With identical twins, one sperm fertilize a single egg to create an ovum. Early in the development of the embryo resulting from this union, a split occurs creating two embryos with the same genetic profile.

One egg combining with two sperm creates 'semi-identical' twins. Embryos resulting from this combination normally do not survive. This condition can also be called "half-identical" twins.


Am I correct about Fraternal?  Two eggs, two sperm?  Thank you for the correction.  

And ribbit, if I recall, the identical twins I knew, one was left handed and the other right.  The left handed one was a little rounder and a hair shorter.  Not by a lot, but enough that I could tell.  I was with them every day in school.  Anyways, yeah, I would think a lot of things could happen in the womb that would make them very unique, despite how the egg process happened.



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"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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C_Sharp
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Quoted from JJR

Am I correct about Fraternal?  Two eggs, two sperm?  


Yes



MIfHI                            I follow a SWAMI diet.
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JJR
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Thank you!


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Captain_Janeway
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Identical twins can often be mirror images of the other. Hence one a lefty and one a righty.


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Patty H
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I thought this article in the Sunday edition of The Boston Globe would perfectly illustrate why identical twins would not have the exact same SWAMI:

http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/family/articles/2011/12/11/led_by_the_child_who_simply_knew/


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Jane
Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 1:31am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Fascinating article - some of the issues remind me of the novel Middlesex.  
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