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Xanthan gum  This thread currently has 2,922 views. Print Print Thread
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Squirrel
Saturday, October 10, 2009, 1:56am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I just realised that Xanthan gum doesn't appear on my SWAMI-X list.

And in fact I can't find anything definitive on it on the boards either. Just lots of speculation and various people saying it's OK or not OK for their corn-sensitive husbands!

It would be good to know whether I can try using it to make some bread. At S$12 a pack, I'd quite like to know before I buy, ya know?  


Note to self: I am me, and also an O-nonnie - I'm allowed not to fit the mould.
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Lola
Saturday, October 10, 2009, 2:23am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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if corn and derivatives agree with you according to your status...
consider it neutral

http://allergies.about.com/gi/.....g-corn-from-diet.php

I try leaving corn out of my life!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Squirrel
Saturday, October 10, 2009, 6:43am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Thanks for the links Lola. I've actually never noticed any ill-effects from corn. I feel very lucky reading the sufferings of so many others. Having said that, corn is an avoid for me and I very rarely knowingly consume it.

Xanthan gum is made by allowing a bacteria to feed off corn sugars to convert them into simple sugars and produce a goo, in much the same way that Nutritional Yeast is a yeast that feeds off sugar cane. I wonder how much of the corn is left in the xanthan gum, or how much of the sugar cane (a bigger problem for me than corn) is left in the nutritional yeast?

Putting aside the allergy factor for the moment, could there be enough left to cause a lectin problem?


Note to self: I am me, and also an O-nonnie - I'm allowed not to fit the mould.
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Lola
Saturday, October 10, 2009, 6:21pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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that will be entirely up to your system!

you might be one of those lucky nonnies!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
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Squirrel
Sunday, October 11, 2009, 1:40am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I'm not sure trusting to luck is quite the right approach!  

Well it's on the SWAMI-X wish list, and there have been a gazillion questions about it, so let's hope Dr D finds it in his heart and his time schedule to choose it for testing!


Note to self: I am me, and also an O-nonnie - I'm allowed not to fit the mould.
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Dianne
Saturday, January 21, 2012, 4:16pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I've been searching for this thread since I realized this week that xanthan gum is not listed in SWAMI yet guar gum, locust bean gum and mastic gum are.

I wonder if it is like when veggies are cultured, the sugar in the vegetables work with the culture or when we make kombucha and the sugar is not longer present after some time.

Some sites do say that there is no corn left. But is the corn they use GMO free?!

On ehow.com if you google 'how to make xanthan gum' it is made with yeast and corn syrup and vodka and  alcohol. One could use rice syrup, malt if compliant and grain free alcohol. I get rice syrup and malt as beneficial. But...at some point for a few days you have to shake this up every 30 minutes.
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Spring
Saturday, January 21, 2012, 7:25pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Maybe the part of stress that makes us fat is the part that we allow to "eat" us alive - the good parts, that is. The part that we need to be looking after the body's needs instead of the stress. Good stress cranks up my metabolism and energy, and I will drop the pounds very quickly. This probably doesn't make any sense, but it is what I have found to be true. I don't think I've ever lost any weight in my life when something was "eating" on me! This "eating" is more corrosion than consumption.


"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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Dianne
Saturday, January 21, 2012, 7:53pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Spring - I think you meant to post this in the thread about stress.  
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Spring
Sunday, January 22, 2012, 12:29am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Dianne
Spring - I think you meant to post this in the thread about stress.  

Thanks, Dianne! Beats me how that happened! I wondered what became of it!   In fact, I hadn't even noticed the Xanthan gum thread until now!


"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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Spring
Sunday, January 22, 2012, 12:42am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Squirrel
Xanthan gum is made by allowing a bacteria to feed off corn sugars to convert them into simple sugars and produce a goo, in much the same way that Nutritional Yeast is a yeast that feeds off sugar cane. I wonder how much of the corn is left in the xanthan gum, or how much of the sugar cane (a bigger problem for me than corn) is left in the nutritional yeast? Putting aside the allergy factor for the moment, could there be enough left to cause a lectin problem?

Strangely enough, when I used to make six loaves of bread every week when my sons were in college, and I used xantham gum in every loaf, I never once noticed the pain in my stomach that I always have if I get corn from whatever source. For my part, I don't think you have anything to worry about. It is not listed anywhere in my diet either. But I don't blame you for wanting to be sure because the stuff is certainly expensive!



"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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C_Sharp
Sunday, January 22, 2012, 1:13am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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The bacteria Xanthomonas campestris that is used to make xanthan gum can be raised on a variety of starch sources. Including both wheat and corn.

Your Xanthan gum may not have been from corn. Or it may have been GMO free corn or it may have been cleaned in such away to remove the part of the corn you have problems with or you may have not had problems with corn back then.

I do not know how long ago your children were in college, but I think if it was a significant time ago the bacteria was likely was grown on wheat starch instead of corn. Food manufacturers did not used to use as much corn as today.


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Possum
Sunday, January 22, 2012, 3:12am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sqirrel there is another type of gum - guar gum... that apparently does the same job but is from a different source & significantly cheaper...Or else you can use chai seeds (soaked)
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TJ
Sunday, January 22, 2012, 7:32am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Xanthan gum is usually made from grains and other plants because they contain glucose an sucrose, two sugars that X. campestris can naturally ferment. A special strain of the X. campestris bacteria was developed that can ferment lactose, a major component of whey. Whey, a byproduct of the cheese process, is now used as an inexpensive source of carbohydrate for xanthan gum production.
In light of this (same information found on Wikipedia), I'd expect whey to be the most common substrate for xanthan gum production at this point.  I'd eaten bread made with xanthan gum and it didn't seem to give me any trouble.

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TJ  -  Monday, January 23, 2012, 1:02am
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Dianne
Sunday, January 22, 2012, 3:12pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I have sent an e-mail to Bob's red mill regarding their source for making xanthan gum.
Did you check out the ehow.com on how to make xanthan gum. You'd need to make a little device can shake the bottle every 30 minutes after the first day for about 5 days.   I have a friend whose an electrician and he's retired. If I can't find what I want he may be up for the challenge!

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Dianne  -  Sunday, January 22, 2012, 10:21pm
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TJ
Sunday, January 22, 2012, 6:41pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I'm not interested in making my own, but I'd like to hear how Bob's Red Mill makes theirs.
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Spring
Sunday, January 22, 2012, 7:51pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from C_Sharp
The bacteria Xanthomonas campestris that is used to make xanthan gum can be raised on a variety of starch sources. Including both wheat and corn.

Your Xanthan gum may not have been from corn. Or it may have been GMO free corn or it may have been cleaned in such away to remove the part of the corn you have problems with or you may have not had problems with corn back then.

I do not know how long ago your children were in college, but I think if it was a significant time ago the bacteria was likely was grown on wheat starch instead of corn. Food manufacturers did not used to use as much corn as today.


Since my stomach had been hurting nearly all my life until I met THE DIETS, I certainly couldn't say that corn was or wasn't used!  


"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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Dianne
Sunday, January 22, 2012, 10:24pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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TJ - As soon as I get an answer from Bob's red mill I will post it here.

In the meantime, I've ordered a small amount of the tragacanth gum & I will make some baguette with it next weekend.
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Dianne
Sunday, January 22, 2012, 10:38pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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TJ - I didn't think you'd want to make the xanthan gum. Just interesting info, although the Explorer in me that likes a challenge and being self-sufficient is somewhat up for the challenge. My husband was pleased I got the tragacanth gum because he thinks I do enough without adding that in to mix.  
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TJ
Tuesday, January 31, 2012, 4:10am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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GF FLOUR MIX MYSTERY CLUE #3: The Flour Stretch Is Critical
Baking with gluten-free flours requires additional tender loving care to make it work. Without gluten, you do not have the key factor of pliability that helps you work the dough and keep the bread together after it is baked. So, you must add extendibility to your dough with xanthan gum, the most widely used “protein” replacement. Guar gum is an alternative to xanthan gum. But, once again, the mystery ensues when you ponder how much xanthan gum to add to your GF Flour Mix. Thankfully, Bette Hagman has already cracked the “stretch factor” case and recommends a specific formula for adding xanthan gum to your GF Flour Mix. According to Hagman: add

¾ teaspoon [xanthan gum] per cup of flour for breads;
½ teaspoon [xanthan gum] per cup of flour for cakes; and
¼ to ½ teaspoon [xanthan gum] per cup of flour for cookies.

Because GF flours lack the stretchy protein known as gluten, in addition to xanthan gum you will need to add more leavening or protein to your recipe such as egg whites, gelatin, or dry milk powder. (Source: The Gluten-Free Gourmet Revised Edition by Bette Hagman, page 39).
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Possum
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Good info - wonder if you can sub ground chia seeds?

¾ teaspoon [xanthan gum] per cup of flour for breads;
½ teaspoon [xanthan gum] per cup of flour for cakes; and
¼ to ½ teaspoon [xanthan gum] per cup of flour for cookies.


And it doesn't specify what sort of flour?
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TJ
Tuesday, January 31, 2012, 6:15pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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The page also talks about flours, just not the part I quoted.

I baked a loaf of rice bread last night with the xanthan gum.  It held together very well, but holy cow was it dense, and doughy in the middle.  Perhaps it needed to rise longer and be baked longer at a lower temperature?
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Dianne
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Quoted from Dianne
I have sent an e-mail to Bob's red mill regarding their source for making xanthan gum.


Very interesting answer! In my e-mail to them, I commented on how the research shows that it is usually made with corn and yeast and that there is no corn protein left once the yeast is done with it. Now when I wrote this, it was not that I believed there was no by-product left from the corn.

Their answer to me was that it is grown on, OMG - WHEAT - and that as I stated in my e-mail that no wheat protein is left after the yeast are done.  

The moral of the story for me is stay away from the xanthan gum! I'm looking forward to trying out the tragacanth gum in the future.

My understanding is that all of their products are made in a gluten-free environment.

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TJ
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I don't understand how it can be gluten-free if grown on wheat.  Crazy!  They must have some extremely thorough process for separating the proteins from the rest of it.
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Dianne
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Quoted from TJ
I don't understand how it can be gluten-free if grown on wheat.  Crazy!  They must have some extremely thorough process for separating the proteins from the rest of it.


Perhaps, there are several factors for me to consider, but my insides are not so happy since I ate the baguette that I made with xanthan gum...now mind you there were other things happenings that could have contributed to it all...but I won't be eating xanthan gum again just to be safe. Once I have an episode, it takes one month for me to get to feeling better and so I will experiment with the tragacanth and then take a break from experimenting. Let's keep our fingers crossed; I'm placing a lot of hope in that tragacanth gum!
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Spring
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Quoted from TJ
The page also talks about flours, just not the part I quoted.I baked a loaf of rice bread last night with the xanthan gum.  It held together very well, but holy cow was it dense, and doughy in the middle.  Perhaps it needed to rise longer and be baked longer at a lower temperature?

Back when my sister and I were trying out different flours etc. every day, trying to make compliant bread - one of us trying one thing and the other trying another, we came up with some really strange breads!   Tasty enough, but, boy, the texture!! Some of them I'm sure you could have used to knock a mule down! I'm sitting here laughing just thinking about it! One thing I learned, a tad of ginger really adds to the flavor. Makes all the difference. I bet your bread made good toast, right?


"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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Possum
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Thanks TJ!!
Quoted from Dianne
Perhaps, there are several factors for me to consider, but my insides are not so happy since I ate the baguette that I made with xanthan gum...now mind you there were other things happenings that could have contributed to it all...but I won't be eating xanthan gum again just to be safe.  and so I will experiment with the tragacanth and then take a break from experimenting. Let's keep our fingers crossed; I'm placing a lot of hope in that tragacanth gum!
I empathise with the "Once I have an episode, it takes one month for me to get to feeling better" Do I ever!! I have just re-realised (yes a slow learner ) that the hidden "stuff" in foods really messes me up...even more than I thought??!!
Having begun again, the process of detoxing from phenols, salicylates & other "ates" etc ( form tryung to introduce " beneficial" fruits in to my diet...I am beginning to finally feel more myself again & to have some motivation back
It's not that anything obvious* makes me crave wrong food, I just don't crave to be "good" when all I do & give up I still get nowhere?! *in the end it is the above mentioned "things" that result in me feeling subtley "drugged" & lacking in enough energy & desire that hold me back!! Here's to research!!!

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Possum
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Quoted from Spring

Back when my sister and I were trying out different flours etc. every day, trying to make compliant bread - one of us trying one thing and the other trying another, we came up with some really strange breads!   Tasty enough, but, boy, the texture!! Some of them I'm sure you could have used to knock a mule down! I'm sitting here laughing just thinking about it! One thing I learned, a tad of ginger really adds to the flavor. Makes all the difference. I bet your bread made good toast, right?
I am scared to start trying!!   Breadmaker & flour bought ages ago, (tick) Need to buy more flour now yeast bought (tick) But yet to start... & apparently I need something called yeast improver???? (yet to buy) Is it even gluten free???

Meanwhile my Hunter Husband still loves toast so I pay through the nose for store bought Logic sought (no tick)

My first ever loaf was a real brick!! My "very new" (at that stage) husband joked we could use it for our mudbrick home!!!!
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TJ
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Quoted from Spring
I bet your bread made good toast, right?
Yes, it does make good toast.  At least it doesn't seem to be affecting me badly.
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Spring
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Quoted from TJ
Yes, it does make good toast.  At least it doesn't seem to be affecting me badly.

That is great, TJ! See, your work is paying off, better than you first thought, anyway!! Nothing is more satisfying that getting a loaf of bread just right. And the smell when it is cooking!! It takes some practice, but I finally got so I could make six or seven loaves in one day that were acceptable. I'm really proud of you that you are able to make this effort toward having something that makes you feel better in more ways than one!


"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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Dianne
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Quoted from Possum
"Once I have an episode, it takes one month for me to get to feeling better"[/color] Do I ever!! I have just re-realised (yes a slow learner ) that the hidden "stuff" in foods really messes me up...even more than I thought??!!


Possum - we are a work in progress are we not?! The hidden stuff is so innocuous but deadly IMHO.
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Dianne
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Quoted from TJ
I don't understand how it can be gluten-free if grown on wheat.  Crazy!  They must have some extremely thorough process for separating the proteins from the rest of it.


TJ - I was at the health food store this evening and took the liberty to closely read the back of Bob's Mill Xanthan Gum and it is written that they use a certain system to check to see if there is any gluten present.
C-Sharp may know the name of the system.

So according to them it is gluten-free and I saw no mention of ppm (parts per million), that means no trace amount either.

Well, I still don't want to have any but I am happy for you that you seem to be fine with it.

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TJ
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Quoted from Spring
That is great, TJ! See, your work is paying off, better than you first thought, anyway!! Nothing is more satisfying that getting a loaf of bread just right.
It would be a huge stretch to claim I got it "just right"!

Quoted from Dianne
TJ - I was at the health food store this evening and took the liberty to closely read the back of Bob's Mill Xanthan Gum and it is written that they use a certain system to check to see if there is any gluten present.
Elisa?
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Dianne
Thursday, February 2, 2012, 6:08pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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TJ - yes, Elisa. Are you familiar with this?
    
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TJ
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It's just a "gluten assay".  I don't know much except that it's used to test for the presence of gluten.
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Spring
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This thread is interesting, and I think it should be back on the "front page!"


"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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ruthiegirl
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Most xanthan gum is made from corn. That would make it gluten-free, but still problematic for many of us.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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meribelle
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I really do not like the gummy texture that my breads have with xanthan gum.  I tried a loaf with chia gel and it tasted good but did not hold together well.  My grandson cannot have gluten or yeast so coming up with a decent bread is hard.  I will gladly take any suggestions.  Preferably without xanthan gum.


Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and start all over again.  Blessings, meribelle
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I don't think any gum should be used, the SCD and gaps diet, don't allow, due to the effect the gums have in the gut; try one of the many recipes on this site, or other sites, using ground nut/seed, egg, a little sea or mountain salt, natural fat (ghee, duck or goose fat), some fresh squash/pumpkin or zucchini for some sweetness.  I intend to try baking some of this easy bread this weekend.  Baking soda may be ok, depends on how healthy you and your gut are, the gaps diet for people with chronic ill health or children with neuro disorders says no to baking soda.
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Victoria
Friday, January 11, 2013, 5:38am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sun Beh Nim
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Quoted from aussielady582
I don't think any gum should be used, the SCD and gaps diet, don't allow, due to the effect the gums have in the gut;


I believe I remember Dr. D saying that gums have the effect of intensifying the negative impact of avoids on our system.  I deliberately stay away from them.  



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ruthiegirl
Friday, January 11, 2013, 4:03pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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The rice bread I bake uses egg, rice flour, olive or coconut oil, salt, agave or molasses, and water. I've made a rice flour pizza crust using a similar recipe, sometimes adding in savory spices. The bread is tasty but crumbly; I haven't yet  tried making  a sandwich-sized loaf for slicing. I make tiny rolls and eat them whole. The pizza dough is crispy, less flexible than spelt dough, and can also be used to make breadsticks.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Brett650
Friday, January 11, 2013, 4:41pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Here's a very interesting article on the subject:
http://glutenfreegirl.com/gluten-free-whole-grain-muffins/

Don't be fooled by the "muffins" title. The article goes into great detail about why the author stopped using gums and how to bake gluten-free without them. In her view, muffins, cookies, and quick breads are all at their best when prepared without xanthan gum or guar gum.


SWAMI 42% Hunter; was mostly vegan until March 2012
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Spring
Friday, January 11, 2013, 5:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Brett, this is a fantastic site! I wish I had known about it about a hundred years ago!! Thanks much for posting it! Anyone struggling with having some sort of bread to eat needs to grab it and run! Straight to the kitchen - or to the grocery!


"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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aussielady582
Monday, January 14, 2013, 4:18am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Made nice easy g-f bread this morning; ingredients approx., about one and half cups almond meal, good pinch of mineral rich salt, about one cup of steamed pumpkin (butternut squash) (skin removed), about quarter cup ghee, 2 whole eggs, a tablespoon or two of water.  Blend well, put into square lined baking pan.  Cook at about 160 degrees c (can't remember this in F, maybe 330 degrees F) for about 30 mins.   Pls check as different ovens produce different results. Can also add herbs, spices, nuts, different fat ie coconut oil, duck fat.  This is ideal for people with starch/carb intolerance and weak pancreases who can't deal with sweeteners, ie O nonnies.  The squash/pumpkin adds sweetness and moisture. Eggs and fat keeps it moist.
thanks for other ideas above, eg the rice flour possibilities.
I would still avoid the gums, esp people with weak intestines and a history of dysbiosis and candida, chronic fatigue, etc.
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BTD Forums    Diet and Nutrition    SWAMI Xpress  ›  Xanthan gum

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