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Research on food choices for all  This thread currently has 51,929 views. Print Print Thread
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Cristina
Saturday, October 24, 2009, 5:03am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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The only thing with that is that there is only so much room to fit it all in and the Summary tables may become too crowded.  It may be better to post any pictures here, or better still to find links to good URLs and post them here, or both.  The summary tables can then hold the reference numbers for the researched replies.




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Symbi
Saturday, October 24, 2009, 9:41am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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You're right there, Cristina, they will take up space, unless the summary tables may need to be converted into tables (if that can be done on the forum.)  Then the pictures or any other pictures we find could go beside the info!

C_Sharp is that possible?


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Cristina
Sunday, October 25, 2009, 12:54am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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The summary tables are in table format, using the blah code table feature.  There will not be enough room there to include photos.  Even deciding what type of photo we publish could be a decision to ponder on. What is more descriptive?  The leaves, the whole plant, the roots?  Should we include descriptions?

But, if what you are talking about is a database type of table, like Typebase, where you click on something and expands into a full blown article of the food in question, then that may be outside the scope of this research.  That is all we are doing at the moment, researching local food items, getting as much information as possible on what we eat and what it looks like, and so on, so that Dr D and his team can eventually integrate these food choices into their Typebase database with a special vernacular for the southern hemitsphere.  

PS: I have not forgotten the Bream, Porgy, Snapper isue.  It has been DD's 25th this weekend and between DS arrival from LA, babysitting DGkids and family get togethers, I have been using my time very briefly on easy to answer posts.  




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Possum
Sunday, October 25, 2009, 1:32am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Symbi
Sounds a bit suss, Cristina, your son's friend is coming over and you're asking her to feel melons ha ha.  Just kidding!
Better than asking your son to feel melons... especially on this occasion
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Symbi
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Hi Cristina,
No worries about the pics.  I didn't know it's already in table format and you're right there probably isn't room.  Oh well.  I also have a lot to do with full time child minding parenting (except 2 days kindergarten), housekeeping and cooking, spring cleaning, lots of appointments next week, and am usually coming on here for 30 minutes or so spurts.  We've all had the flu this week after an appointment with my ENT last Monday (I have hyperaccusis!) where we shared germs   at the hospital and medicare office.  Hello, put all the sick people together and see what happens  (

Will get the papaya research finished I hope soon!  Bit by bit, working together, we'll get there!  


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Symbi  -  Monday, October 26, 2009, 3:51am
Guess you don't call it child minding when it's your kid!
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Cristina
Sunday, October 25, 2009, 3:23am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Symbi
Sounds a bit suss, Cristina, your friend is coming over and you're asking her to feel melons ha ha.  Just kidding!  


Quoted from Possum
Better than asking your son to feel melons... especially on this occasion


Funny girls.  




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Cristina
Sunday, October 25, 2009, 3:34am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Also, for all of us, another thing to consider is the copyright issue, the site could be liable if it could be proven that any photos here are copyrighted.  That is why it is usually better to post links to websites with photos.  Otherwise we have to go through the trouble of taking photos of good quality, get them published in some website and then arrange to post them here ensuring we keep the paperwork or some sort of proof to easily demonstrate that they are really our photos.  In my opinion, not worth the risk.

GW I know you are super reliable and working on the nutritional values of PawPaws custard apples available in aussie land to decide which will be the closest nutritionally wise to US PawPaw.  Take your time, and if you feel you cannot get any further with it, that is also OK, we can only do what we can, we are all volunteers and we have to make sure that the fun aspect of this research is not lost.  We do not want to make it a chore, the real goal here is to not lose track of resetting our genes... but we all know that.  




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Cristina
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Research on SeaBream (this is a big one):

American Porgies = Australian Breams
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porgie_fishing

We established in Reply 232 from historic records in this forum (Heidi's column) that at least a species of Porgy in US has the scientific name of Chrysophyrs auratus or Pagrus Auratus.  This is also commonly known as the Red Porgy, Hawaian Red Porgy, or Red seabream.  Our Snapper (in Australia, shares the same scientific name. Therefore it is safe to arrive to the same conclusion as reply 232:

Typebase Porgy (Chysophyrs Auratus)/Red Porgy or Red seabream = Au/Nz  Snapper.

Typebase also describes another Porgy under the scientific name of PAGELLUS BOGARAVEO  which is the Black Spot seabream, commonly known as just Seabream.

I believe that this is the Seabream listed in our Swamis.  At least in my Swami it has the same classification as Porgy.  Typebase has not yet given it its own rating.  In close examination of the descriptor in Typebase under Porgy, we can read:

Quoted Text

Porgy
Scientific Name PAGELLUS BOGARAVEO

General Description:

Widely known as sea bream, there are many different varieties of this fish family in the United States and around the world.

In other words, Typebase is telling us that Pagellus Bogaraveo is the species commonly known as Sea Bream  within the Porgy family.  Unfortunately we do not have identical scientific names in the southern hemisphere.

Scup is the other species getting a mention in Typebase under Porgy and then again on its own.  This is because of the many species under Porgy family, Scup has a different enough composition to deserve its own rating.  Notice that Typebase Scup has the wrong scientific name of PARALICHTHYS DENTATUS which is the Summer Flounder.  The real scientific name for SCUP is Stenotomus chrysops . (I wondeer if this has been reported as an errata for Typebase?).

So, of the fishes listed as Porgies in Typebase we have determined just one with identical name in Australia: the Snapper.

But, Porgy encompases a group of fishes in Typebase, the descriptor makes that clear.  Each country has its own best species for this group, the ones that are the best eats.  The link I listed at the top of this reply list the most popular species not only in America, but also European and for our southern hemisphere.

I believe that it should be safe to assume that we can place our best eating quality bream in the same category as the Porgy group in Typebase.  The Typebase descriptor is not restrictive to Seabream, or Scup, Heidi saw that when she included the Red Seabream (and our Snapper), therefore, at least the species listed in Wikipedia if they are considered good eating quality in our countries, could be included in our diets as equivalents to Porgy.

In regards to the nutritional level of Australian fishes compare to the American ones, including the Black Bream, I found the following study from the Chemistry Department of the University of Melbourne in Australia:

http://www.biochemj.org/bj/031/0248/0310248.pdf

The study concludes that the Vitamin A content of Australian fish liver oils is higher than the fishes in the northern hemisphere.

I will summarise these findings in table form in my next post.








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Cristina
Sunday, October 25, 2009, 10:05pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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My Research as posted in Reply 307 can be sumarized as follows:

Equivalent Fish & Seafood Table
TypebaseAU/NZEquivalentComments



Porgy (group)Bream (group)Local edible breams - Reply 307



Porgy, Red Porgy or Red Seabream
(Chrysophyrs auratus/Pagrus Pagrus)
SnapperReply 232, 307



Porgy/Swami Seabream
Pagellus Bogaraveo
Not availableListed in Swami as Seabream - Reply 307



Porgy/Scup
(Stenotomus chrysops)
Not availableReply 307







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Symbi
Monday, October 26, 2009, 1:33am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Cristina - thanks for the kind words  , I'll stop asking about the photos, you're right there could be a copyright issue.  To get those on the net I had to put them up on photobucket.  If I see an inspirational fruit or veg I may take some photos of them and put them on here though    

BTW that's dandy having dandelions growing around your place and chooks and eggs.  Also about yeast - it's going to take more than a black dot to take my Vegemite away from me!     Though I don't eat it when I have active yeast infections   which will be a thing of the past now  


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Cristina
Monday, October 26, 2009, 1:48am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Closure of some Melons, Dandelion Greens, Aparagus Pea, Chesses (Quark, Peccorino, Manchego, Paneer, Farmer), Nutritional and Bakers Yeast:

Equivalent Food Choices Summary



Dairy Products
Quark, Farmer, Paneer
Pecorino, Manchego
Same vernacularReplies 225-7,291,293



Live Foods
Asparagus Pea
(Tetragonolobus purpureus)
Winged PeaReply 282



Dandelion Greens
(Taraxacum Officinale)
Dandelion/
Common Dandelion
Reply 278



Fruits
CanteloupeSpecialty Melons:
Charentais Melon
Reply 260



Casaba MelonHoneydew CasabaReply 260



Musk Melon RockmelonsReply 260



Condiments
Bakers YeastBrewers/Torula YeastReply 294



Nutritional YeastSavory Yeast FlakesReply 294




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Cristina
Monday, October 26, 2009, 1:51am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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GW, actually the copyright issue was a PM reminder from C_Sharp.  Always making sure we stay in the straight and narrow/sharp.  




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Symbi
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Typebase also describes another Porgy under the scientific name of PAGELLUS BOGARAVEO  which is the Black Spot seabream, commonly known as just Seabream.
I believe that this is the Seabream listed in our Swamis.  At least in my Swami it has the same classification as Porgy.  


Thanks for your research!  I checked the sample SWAMI available on the internet here (Jane Public, Explorer O - March 0 and unfortunately Porgy is a Super food while Sea Bream is a Diamond Super Food.  Interestingly the earlier Doe John SWAMI (July 07) has Porgy listed but no Sea Bream.  So I don't think we can say that they are the same fish in the Genotype Diet.  

Good find on scup being the wrong species, I wonder if there's a thread to report typebase errata somewhere for that.

I believe that it should be safe to assume that we can place our best eating quality bream in the same category as the Porgy group in Typebase.  The Typebase descriptor is not restrictive to Seabream, or Scup, Heidi saw that when she included the Red Seabream (and our Snapper), therefore, at least the species listed in Wikipedia if they are considered good eating quality in our countries, could be included in our diets as equivalents to Porgy.

I agree with that, though still wonder if there could be variation in those fishes that hasn't been tested, especially since Bream are essentially bottom dwelling fish and being a wide term including many genuses and species.  But if they are considered top eating though, like you say in their countries, yes, I'd eat em.  (Unbelievable how many fish in the sea and it is nigh impossible for Dr D's team to try and study them all - Scientists are probably still finding new species as we type)

Like the porgy fishing page on wikipedia.  The Southern Black Bream makes me   and mouth water.  First fish I caught, aged 5, just set up fishing with Great Grandma at estuary near Bunbury WA.  Asked to hold fishing rod while Mum goes back to car.  Jerk, jerk, what do you know, he bit right down on that hook.  He was lovely pan sized, best fish i ever ate.  Bream is like that, a lovely shape in the frying pan!

In regards to the nutritional level of Australian fishes compare to the American ones, including the Black Bream, I found the following study from the Chemistry Department of the University of Melbourne in Australia:  
The study concludes that the Vitamin A content of Australian fish liver oils is higher than the fishes in the northern hemisphere.


Lucky to be an Australian!  We also have lower levels of contamination I believe.
In that study they were examining the oil found within the liver of the fish only though:
Quoted Text
Oily fish have oils throughout the fillet and in the belly cavity around the gut, rather than only in the
liver like white fish.
according to Dr D in the GTD book.




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Symbi
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Back on the hunt for the elusive Sea Bream they are talking about in GTD / SWAMI.  When at post 286 I though it was Pagrus Pagrus Common Sea bream that was incorrect I believe now, you're right about that Cristina.  I was using the scientific name and common name and distribution and that may have been too easy.   (fun at the same time this hunt is Us knowing fingerprinting now and research we could solve crimes you know  )

Found this:
Quoted Text
Perhaps the most common variety of fish referred to as sea bream is the European sea bream, scientifically called the Pagellus centrodontus. ...It is commonly found in oceans surrounding Europe ..
BTW Pagellus Centrodontus is aka Pagellus Bogaraveo aka blackspot sea bream. (same one you found Cristina!) http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/speciesSummary.php?id=890


But then it says:
Quoted Text
..There are a number of sea bream that are also commonly found in the western Atlantic, off the coasts of the United States and in the Caribbean. These include the western Atlantic sea bream (the archosargus rhomboidalis), and the fish commonly known as the sheepshead. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-sea-bream.htm  


Looking up the Western Atlantic Sea Bream.  Found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Atlantic_seabream it says:
Quoted Text
Within their native range, Western Atlantic seabream are also known as the Seabream,[1] Nelson, J.S., E.J. Crossman, H. Espinosa-Pérez, L.T. Findley, C.R. Gilbert, R.N. Lea and J.D. Williams 2004 Common and scientific names of fishes from the United States, Canada, and Mexico. American Fisheries Society, Special Publication 29, Bethesda, Maryland.
Unfortunately Fish base is busy and I can't open it's page, it may be http://www.fishbase.org/summary/speciessummary.php?id=1219

I think the academics have found the the Sea Bream that Dr D has in SWAMI!  The European Sea Bream (blackspot sea bream - Pagellus Bogaraveo) is in the typebase under Porgy.  So I propose that since Porgy has a different value to Sea Bream in the GTD, and since the Western Atlantic Sea Bream (Archosargus Rhomboidalis) is according to the above academics known as Sea Bream in their native range, this is the Sea Bream in GTD / SWAMI.

Dunno why I'm excited since we can't get that fish here! I hope we can finish the Sea Bream issue and that we can eat local Sea Bream like you said Cristina.


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I have not really looked into the issue. I presumed that Porgy in GTD was "Pagrus pagrus" which is found off the Atlantic coast of the US. I think that is what people usually call them in the states.

Sea bream in GTD, I presume is "Red" Porgy found in the Meditarian and the European Atlantic coast. Species identification as noted earlier is also "Pagrus pagrus."  I do not think I am clarifying anything here.

In any case, I avoid any fish called porgy or sea bream because of the risk of ciguatera food poisoning.  Since I have had cigautera food poisoning, I am supposed to either test sea bream/porgy before eating it (testing is more expensive than the fish) or determine that the fish was caught far enough North.


MIfHI                            I follow a SWAMI diet.

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Gee C_Sharp, that's harsh that Cigautera poisoning.  You may like some of the Bream we get around here, like the Southern Black Bream from only the south of Aussie, or the Tarakihi (Ocean Bream) from New Zealand.
(Though you probably can't get those there, you must miss the good food you used to get over here.  I went to USA and the mainstream meat is shocking compared here, hormones and all)

Don't meant to hog this thread lately, but I was going to say a funny story about SCUP.  I sent my hubby shopping yesterday, bad handwriting.  He had the manager and assistant searching the whole shop for SCUP.  The manager said, he was sure that he'd heard of it and maybe it was a fish.  DH realised it actually was SOUP near the end of the search.     Well we know you can't get SCUP here anyway!  


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Lola
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Quoted Text
Dr D
The Jane Public is not a real SWAMI printout. There were just a bunch of filters and switches thrown arbitrarily so as to get a printout.


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Cristina
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Thanks Lola, but C_Sharp spoiled the plot by posting two different values for the two, I was hoping that the Sea Bream under Porgy, was the Swami Sea Bream, just to give it an identity.  But nope. Obviously they are two different breams.

GW, I like your photo!!     Maybe we should substitute the Scoup Scup for Soup! It should be easier ... Cheers!!   I think I am still under the effect of this anesthetic ... or is it the wine?  




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Cristina
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Hey, I just had a thought.  Just because Swami SeaBream and Porgy have different values in Swami, it does not mean that Pagellus Bogaraveo is not the Seabream listed in Swami.  Porgy can still be the group, and Porgy/Seabream be the Swami Seabream.  Typebase also mentions Scup and others in the descriptor of Porgy.

I am glad we have consensus on the yummy Breams ...

Some good news regarding my inquiries to various experts/authorities in the subject.  This morning I received an e-mail and phone call from Seamedia publications, they are the ones who run and publish the monthly boating and fishing magazine, where the Snapper article from Dr Geoff Corey was published.  That article made a reference to a previous edition where Breams were discussed.  That edition is not freely available on the net, at least I could not find it, but they promised to follow it up and somehow get it to me. Well, guess what, they came true to their promise and e-mailed me access to those editions!!  Thank you Seamedia in the name of good health!  They are very helpful, do check their website.  

Got some reading to do tonight ...




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Quoted from Cristina
I think I am still under the effect of this anesthetic ... or is it the wine?  
I didn't know you could drink with anesthetic   

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Cristina
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I did not either, but I forgot I had the needle at the dentist, although part of my cheek was still a little bit numb, not much, compare to what I had to go through the previous two times.  All I wanted to do is put my feet up, and have a pre-dinner drink.  Only a little bit, my warrior portion.  It was so good... Early night tonight, had late night last night ...




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Have a good night!! I'm off to bed too for an early night... Sleep well
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Quoted from Cristina

GW, I like your photo!!     Maybe we should substitute the Scoup Scup for Soup! It should be easier ... Cheers!!   I think I am still under the effect of this anesthetic ... or is it the wine?  


Thanks, you were an inspiration for putting a photo up, it's nice to have a face for a name.  Maybe scup soup, no scupper that!  

Hope you are feeling ok today, no sore head or gums?  Bet you slept well though .  We had a great rain here finally last night (1st in 4 months ) Did you get some?


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Yes, much better today, good sleep last night, I needed.  I will not be here much though today.  Busy doing tax for hubby, due tomorrow!!  Talk later ...




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Symbi
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AO + MN Super-taster SWAMI-X Explorer
Ee Dan
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
Age: 40
At 267 I linked to this list.
Quoted from Symbi

Also found this great list of different names for food including whitlow = chicory http://www.dadamo.com/B2blogs/blogs/index.php/2004/06/28/a-rose-is-a-rose-is-a?blog=13


Quoted Text

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet....
..There are times when it is difficult to establish a foods status on the BTD because foods are called different things in different parts of the world.

There are lots of foods with dual personalities and lots with names to make them acceptable to the consumer; I guess a lot of it goes back to its place of origin...

Snow Peas Mange-tout

Eggplant Aubergine

Zucchini Courgette

Hazelnut Filbert

Peanut Groundnut

Parsnip White Carrot

Swede Rutabaga
(done)

Rocket Arugula

Endive - Witlof (got that one)

Green Bean French bean, Runner bean, Climbing bean, Snake bean, Snap bean,

Broad Bean Fava Bean, Faba Bean

Pea Green Pea, English Pea, Shell Pea

Capsicum Bell Pepper, Sweet Pepper

Shark Flake

Cow/Steer/Bull/calf Steak, Beef, Veal

Pig Pork, Ham, Bacon

Sheep Lamb, Mutton, Hogget

Fish Too many

Sausage Mystery bag


Paul A is correct there are too many fish, though not enough on my fishing line lately    
We've got a lot of these on this list already, good work everyone but this list may give some more ideas to research.


INFJ ex-Ghee Whiz, GTD Explorer Sept_09 - SWAMI Mar_10

Family - O+ DH and DD (both hunter-ish)
IBS, Fibro, Hashimotos, Adenomyosis, Oral Lichen Planus, Breast Cancer, Terminal case of Optimism
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BTD Forums    Diet and Nutrition    SWAMI Xpress  ›  Research on food choices for all

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