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Mayflowers
Tuesday, May 7, 2013, 3:59pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Chloe

Could it be that people who take D without K2 plus also take in too much calcium without balancing it with adequate magnesium are the ones having issues?  Magnesium I believe might be more difficult to absorb than calcium.  Most people aren't getting K2 or eating foods high in K2....


IDK Chloe you know as well as I that Dr. D teaches individual health.  You yourself taught me not to beleive all the info out there.   Its what works for each of us. I've worked in medicine long enough to know about scientific misconduct and how studies are tipped in the favor of whoever funds them or a corrupted scientist.
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Chloe
Tuesday, May 7, 2013, 4:13pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 815


IDK Chloe you know as well as I that Dr. D teaches individual health.  You yourself taught me not to beleive all the info out there.   Its what works for each of us. I've worked in medicine long enough to know about scientific misconduct and how studies are tipped in the favor of whoever funds them or a corrupted scientist.


How right you are  



"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"
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ruthiegirl
Tuesday, May 7, 2013, 5:34pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I don't think I'm taking too much D nor do I think my levels are "too high." I'm just wondering WHY I need such a large dose to maintain "normal" blood levels, and if it might indicate some other kind of problem. If I'm not absorbing all the D in the pills I take, then the extra is just getting pooped out, and no harm is being done. But if that's the case- does my gut need healing?

If I'm using up extraordinary amounts of vitamin D- why? Is the extra vitamin D like a "band aid" that is keeping my D levels stable, but fails to correct the underlying problem? If so, then what's the underlying problem and how do I fix it?


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Chloe
Tuesday, May 7, 2013, 5:56pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ruthiegirl
I don't think I'm taking too much D nor do I think my levels are "too high." I'm just wondering WHY I need such a large dose to maintain "normal" blood levels, and if it might indicate some other kind of problem. If I'm not absorbing all the D in the pills I take, then the extra is just getting pooped out, and no harm is being done. But if that's the case- does my gut need healing?

If I'm using up extraordinary amounts of vitamin D- why? Is the extra vitamin D like a "band aid" that is keeping my D levels stable, but fails to correct the underlying problem? If so, then what's the underlying problem and how do I fix it?


Do you think you're truly "using up" extraordinary amounts of D or perhaps maybe are you not absorbing very much from this particular formula?   Do you take the entire amount at once?  Maybe if you divided up your dosage?  I'd guess you'd want to figure out if you're still dealing with a leaky gut from old lectin damage (wheat/gluten in your past diet) which would cut down your absorption of everything you eat plus your supplements.

Taking a supplement is one thing.  Breaking it down and assimilating it is another.  Your
body might only be utilizing half the amount you're taking.  But who even knows if the pills
break down at all.  You might want to take them with a warm beverage just to be sure the
gelatin outer coating is completely dissolving.  Your system might process food quickly....and
the pills taken when food is ingested might swiftly surround the pill and sweep it out of your
body before it's absorbed.  Don't really know.....just trying to imagine why my rather sluggish
digestive system needs so little of any supplement to achieve good results.




"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"
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ruthiegirl
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OTOH, if I'm absorbing 1/3 of the D I ingest, and I'm taking 3X the amount I need, (or whatever the numbers might be) then is there really a problem? Is there harm in continuing to do what I've been doing, since it's working?


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Chloe
Tuesday, May 7, 2013, 7:32pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ruthiegirl
OTOH, if I'm absorbing 1/3 of the D I ingest, and I'm taking 3X the amount I need, (or whatever the numbers might be) then is there really a problem? Is there harm in continuing to do what I've been doing, since it's working?


Just my opinion but without really knowing how well you're absorbing anything, whatever it takes
to keep your D level at a reasonably healthy level is probably your goal rather than trying to figure out where the other 2/3 of this formula is going.  Do you get any sun on your face/body at all?  Is your D level better in summer?  

This is interesting but still can't find an explanation as to why some absorb D better than others.

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/blog/does-it-matter-how-you-take-vitamin-d/

this could be helpful
http://www.easy-immune-health.com/vitamin-d-absorption.html


"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"
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Spring
Tuesday, May 7, 2013, 9:21pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Well, I'm a guinea pig here. I'm back to taking the Vitamin D I was taking before all the hoopla about needing enough of it to fill a barn almost. I am taking Vitamin K2 as MK-7 from Jarrow and will do so until I have my next checkup. I got tired of all this uncertainty with no real guidance about what to do.  


"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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Mayflowers
Tuesday, May 7, 2013, 9:45pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from ruthiegirl
I don't think I'm taking too much D nor do I think my levels are "too high." ?


What do you want you level to be? Are you taking the same brand that when your level was I forgot ....89?Took me 2 years to get mine up to 45 And there's also good old fashioned sunbathing to increase levels... That's why I went to the tanning salon. And this might be the first spring I don't get the cold from hades for once.

BTW, I was just watching Dr. Oz and a doc on there said back pain is directly linked to D deficiency for those with back pain. My son had bad back pain the other day, I bet his level dropped again.

OR. you may just have a genetic D absorption problem? Just putting it out there for observation. I  and one of my sons has a genetic iron absorption problem. We have to take iron supplements.  

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Chloe
Wednesday, May 8, 2013, 3:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 815


And there's also good old fashioned sunbathing to increase levels..  


You made a really good point about getting vitamin D from the sun.  More benefits than any of
us realized~  Oral vitamin D cannot replace sunlight.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/260247.php


"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"
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Mayflowers
Thursday, May 9, 2013, 3:41pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Thanks for the link. Did you see Dr. Oz show yesterday saying sunscreen may cause cancer with the chemicals in them? I've known that for years! Since the 90's

I only use baby sunscreen like Banana Boat and only if I'm in the sun for hours on a beach. Its better to use the special clothing

I guess ruthie doesn't want to say what she wants as her D level. Don't OD ruthie
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Chloe
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Nope....I missed the show..  Will try and find that segment on Oz's website.  Thanks for mentioning
it.   Even my PCP who is super conventional (and goes mental on me if I even say the words "natural medicine" in front of him and worse if I mention Dr. Oz says "sit in the sun for 30 minutes every day and get as much natural vitamin D as you can".

I don't use sunscreen....especially I avoid makeup that contains sunscreen.  I think for native people
who have grown up in the tropics and use their natural plant oils to protect their bodies....like olive oil, coconut oil, nut oils....there are natural properties in plants that are way more protective and safer than a chemical soup of sunscreen.  If I'm going to be in the sun for more than an hour, I'm covered.  Wearing a hat.... Generally I time how long I'm in the sun and generally it's not high noon.

My dad always slathered his body and face with suntan lotion (living in FL and playing golf/swimming)  He was constantly at the dermatologist's office getting basal cell carcinoma removed.  A hunk if his ear was missing from surgery.  Suntan lotion....I always felt it was the wrong
thing to put on my body.  Happy for my gut instinct!

But aren't you amazed after seeing that article on my last link how the sun helps lower blood pressure and prevent heart disease/stroke? Yay natural soleil!!

My body doesn't seem to want or need much oral vitamin D this time of year.  I take a very low
dose right now.....just one pill of Dr. D's Phyto D.  But when it's a sunny, I sit outside every day for
30 minutes....arms and legs exposed....other day, I suntanned my belly too.  (neighbors can't see
me  


Edited to include link to Dr. Oz's link on issues with sunscreen dangers.
http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/breaking-news-sunscreen-dangerous

Dr. Oz said to see to the Environmental working group's list of safe sunscreens.  They must contain
titanium oxide or zinc oxide and will stay white on the skin.  More costly creams might disappear more
readily but it's the sunscreen that penetrates deep into the skin and could become an endocrine disruptor
that you'd want to stay away from.  The zinc/titanium creams act as a barrier and deflect the sun.  Not
absorbed into the body.

List of safe sunscreens:
http://www.ewg.org/2012sunscreen/best-sunscreens/best-beach-sport-sunscreens/

A list of foods that will protect the skin from sun damage
http://worldtruth.tv/foods-that-protect-skin-from-the-sun%E2%80%8F/


"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"

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Chloe  -  Thursday, May 9, 2013, 8:23pm
Chloe  -  Thursday, May 9, 2013, 5:23pm
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Mayflowers
Thursday, May 9, 2013, 10:31pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Chloe


I usually record it while I'm at work but don't have to this week with my wrist... IDK about foods but there are 2 supplements I take for the sun. I take Astaxanthan and beta carotene to protect my skin. Then after sun, I take straight niacin to get rid of the excess radiation.

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Chloe
Thursday, May 16, 2013, 4:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I found interesting information I wanted to share.  Although Dr. John Cannell has become the pioneer in vitamin D research, Dr. Carolyn Dean is one of the major researchers in Magnesium.  There is a big connection between magnesium and vitamin D.

This is a response quoted by Dr. Dean from her website answering a question asked about how much vitamin D to take....
and she's arguing against taking high doses.  Here is the reason why.

SECOND QUESTION: This involved my short presentation about being cautious using high doses of Vitamin D. This angered people who said I was dead wrong because they had benefited from high dose Vitamin D. But far more people agreed that they had been harmed by too much Vitamin D. The ratio was 5 against Vitamin D to 1 for Vitamin D. Judging from the mood of the people who berated me for my cautious advice, I would say their irritability is probably due to magnesium deficiency.

Basically Vitamin D is a hormone with a feedback mechanism to let you know if you have enough calcium. Because we are so calcified with supplements and fortified foods, our Vitamin D levels in general are low. This has been interpreted as a deficiency and not as a reaction to calcium. Also Vitamin D requires magnesium to transform it from the storage form to the active form. So when you take Vitamin D in high doses you overuse your magnesium and you hold on to more calcium which also knocks out your magnesium. People who are already magnesium deficient can get hit very hard. The 20% of people who can metabolize Vitamin D without ill effects do well on it. To determine which you are is difficult. So, what you do is monitor you 25-OH Vitamin D levels, work up to about 800mg of magnesium and slowly build up your Vitamin D using 1,000-2,000 IU daily.


So finally we have a real answer to the question why do some people absorb D well and others don't.
And to understand that the real issue is a magnesium deficiency which masks the fact that most people
have too much calcium and have over-calcified their bodies.  In fact, taking high doses of vitamin D
at one time drains magnesium, causing even a worse magnesium/calcium ratio and continuing to stay
in a magnesium/Vitamin D deficient state.

What I learned is this.  I take no calcium....I eat calcium rich foods, but I use magnesium supplements
like mag citrate (Natural Calm), a powder mixed in water, sipped throughout the day so it doesn't cause
digestive problems.  I take ONLY Dr. D's vitamin D because in his genius he already knew that this
was the optimum dose.  My D level stays at 72.....I figure I'm doing this correctly and I think everyone
should re-think taking high doses of D without first focusing on whether they've got adequate magnesium in their bodies.  I use the transdermal magnesium but I always notice that vitamin D in
high doses makes me achy.  I never understood why.  It's because the more D I'm trying to absorb,
the more magnesium I'm draining.

Sheesh.....it's so simple it's almost ridiculous!  

http://drcarolyndean.com/

A list of drugs that drains magnesium....Note also that high cortisol drains magnesium.
http://www.jigsawhealth.com/resources/drug-muggers-suzy-cohen-magnesium


"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"

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Drea
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Hmmm. I eat calcium rich foods but I don't eat calcium-fortified foods, per se...I also take magnesium tablets, about 600 mg per day...and I still had trouble retaining the high doses of Vit D...I really should schedule my Vit D retest...thanks for the reminder. An interesting perspective, nonetheless!


It is not my responsibility to convince anyone of anything.
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Spring
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My oldest sister has been declaring for years that we need to get as much magnesium as we do calcium. Actually, she can only take magnesium because taking calcium AT ALL makes her ache like crazy. She is a marvel healthwise at over eighty one! She just installed a beautiful lavatory in one bath just because she could do it! Amazing!


"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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ruthiegirl
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I've been supplementing with magnesium for years.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Chloe
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Quoted from ruthiegirl
I've been supplementing with magnesium for years.


Yes, but there are times when you've said you had taken large doses of vitamin D. What happens
is that the magnesium can't get from storage to the active form.

Posting this again from Dr. Carolyn Dean because I think it's such an eye opener.  My mind is now wrapped around taking a small amount of D (2,000 iu per day) and focusing on getting more magnesium. Also getting the rest of my D from the sun.


Basically Vitamin D is a hormone with a feedback mechanism to let you know if you have enough calcium. Because we are so calcified with supplements and fortified foods, our Vitamin D levels in general are low. This has been interpreted as a deficiency and not as a reaction to calcium. Also Vitamin D requires magnesium to transform it from the storage form to the active form. So when you take Vitamin D in high doses you overuse your magnesium and you hold on to more calcium which also knocks out your magnesium. People who are already magnesium deficient can get hit very hard. The 20% of people who can metabolize Vitamin D without ill effects do well on it. To determine which you are is difficult. So, what you do is monitor you 25-OH Vitamin D levels, work up to about 800mg of magnesium and slowly build up your Vitamin D using 1,000-2,000 IU daily.



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Spring
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I've been taking it since 1963!


"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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So, if I understand what Dr. Dean is saying: we should be taking up to 800 mg of magnesium, 1000-2000 IUs of Vit D, and limiting our calcium intake if we get our calcium from foods? Do I have that correct?


It is not my responsibility to convince anyone of anything.
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Mayflowers
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My sister fell again and this time she said she didn't break anything and she attributes that to strontium that she's been taking.  I was taking that and I ran out yesterday. I bought another bottle. I don't know whether she's still taking D or just getting sun now. I still take 2-4 thousand IUs of D..with 200 mg of magnesium plus multi minerals with more magnesium.  I can't take too much minerals because it will trigger a migraine. weird.
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I started to take Phyto D 2000. It's 2000 IUs twice daily (and Vit K and Strotium    )

http://www.4yourtype.com/prodinfo.asp?number=NP066


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Mayflowers
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Quoted from yaeli
I started to take Phyto D 2000. It's 2000 IUs twice daily (and Vit K and Strotium    )

http://www.4yourtype.com/prodinfo.asp?number=NP066


I can't take extra vitamin K. I've read a lot on how its not good for already thick blood...like mine.   That's why I don't take Phyto D. Well that and I'm allergic to sheep hair which gives me a rash, which is in every brand of D3 out there, so I have to take Blue Bonnet brand fish oil D

I've recently read about mushrooms supplying D2. That's another option.
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Chloe
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Quoted from 815


I can't take extra vitamin K. I've read a lot on how its not good for already thick blood...like mine.   That's why I don't take Phyto D. Well that and I'm allergic to sheep hair which gives me a rash, which is in every brand of D3 out there, so I have to take Blue Bonnet brand fish oil D

I've recently read about mushrooms supplying D2. That's another option.


Do you fit any of the criteria for the contraindications for K?
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/vitamin-k-000343.htm


"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"
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Chloe
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Quoted from Drea
So, if I understand what Dr. Dean is saying: we should be taking up to 800 mg of magnesium, 1000-2000 IUs of Vit D, and limiting our calcium intake if we get our calcium from foods? Do I have that correct?


Yes, that's what she's saying.

Here's Dr. Dean explaining it more clearly.
http://drcarolyndean.com/2013/03/take-magnesium-not-calcium/

Here's another one of her great articles

The Vitamin D Debate
Carolyn Dean MD ND | Monday, March 11, 2013
Vitamin D has become quite an emotionally charged topic as evidenced from the outpouring of pro and con opinions to my post of March 10, 2013, Too Much Vitamin D. I’ll answer everyone in this blog instead of individually.

When I blog about Vitamin D I’m sharing my concerns about a blanket recommendation for taking incredibly high doses like 50,000 IU of synthetic Vitamin D a day when the body can’t possibly process that amount. Even some people on 5,000 IU find that too much for them. How can taking 50,000 IU of Vitamin D be normal, even if it is made from lamb’s wool.

When you take that much Vitamin D, the strain on magnesium is dramatic. The accumulation of calcium is dramatic. And there are probably many other consequences that we don’t even know about. Even so, some people seem to improve dramatically on 50,000 IU. Is that true improvement or are the receptor sites for Vitamin D so battered that they react and respond. How long can such a response be maintained without deleterious effects on magnesium and calcium balance?

These are questions that aren’t being asked. Since I’ve been studying and practicing medicine for about 45 years, I’ve seen the trends and shifts and the fads. So, from a detached position, I’m just asking the hard questions.

When we measure Vitamin D we are measuring the storage form and not even the active form. So, how do we really know what’s going on? And since Vitamin D is a hormone with a feedback loop for calcium, when the D levels are low, does that mean it has enough calcium and doesn’t want to make more Vitamin D to pull in more calcium? We don’t even know the answer to that question. Yet we keep recommending more Vitamin D.

I’m hearing about people taking high doses of Vitamin D developing hypercalcemia. I wrote about the need for magnesium in processing Vitamin D from its storage form to its active form back in my 2003 edition of The Magnesium Miracle. My first questions about the safety of high dose Vitamin D came when I heard about people taking high doses and developing magnesium deficiency symptoms, including seizures.

At this point, I think the 40 ng/mL range of 25-OH D is probably quite sufficient and only take Vitamin D if you are also taking magnesium.

Then there is the Vitamin K2 part of the puzzle that you have to address. I’ve blogged about this also and recommend this book, Vitamin K2: The Calcium Paradox (although the author doesn’t write enough about magnesium). The Weston A Price website has a lot to say about Vitamin K2 because Price discovered the X Factor, which turned out to be Vitamin K2.

In my practice, I recommend Green Pastures, Blue Ice (fermented Vit D and butter oil for the Vit A, Vit K2 and Vit D) as the perfect combination of all three fat soluble vitamins.

But let me be clear. I don’t know all the answers and you don’t have to listen to me, but neither do you have to listen to anyone else. You have to listen to yourself and what makes sense to you and your body. Medicine is about taking big guns and shooting them off indiscriminately. For them, Vitamin D is the new calcium and they will promote it very widely and wait a few decades for the fall out. As I said in my March 10, 2013 blog, I don’t want to wake up in 10-20 years and find out we made a huge mistake in overdosing people with Vitamin D, just like we did with calcium.



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Mayflowers
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Quoted from Chloe


Do you fit any of the criteria for the contraindications for K?
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/vitamin-k-000343.htm


No, but I did have DVT at one time and the vein specialist said I shouldn't eat large amounts of broccoli when taking coumadin . That was back in 2002.  I eat a lot of greens and I'm not a celiac. I think my intestines can make it. I clot very easily when I bleed. I suppose its a warrior thing. Due to the DVT and that I clot easily and one time I couldn't give blood because it was just too thick she said and wouldn't flow... (which could have been due to dehydration) I don't take extra K.
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