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Streptococcus thermophilus: Probiotic or Not?  This thread currently has 4,478 views. Print Print Thread
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Conor
Wednesday, May 30, 2012, 3:17pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Spring
Makes me wish I could eat yogurt!

Hi Spring, I know. Yoghurt is a full-on avoid for me, too. However, some of the newer research that I've read, as well as something Lloyd pointed out, seems to indicate that probiotic supplementation (i.e., bolus administration) in some instances increased probiotic levels even better than did yoghurt consumption.

Another way I've been maintaining my probiotic intake, now that yoghurt is verboten, is to drink water kefir. It actually has more inherent strains of gut-friendly bacteria than even the best commercial yoghurt available.



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Lloyd
Friday, June 1, 2012, 8:59pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Conor

Sent it.


I've had a look. Fairly interesting.

In vitro studies are useful as predictive tools. They have benefits and drawbacks. The studies that used human volunteers also have benefits and drawbacks, the biggest of which is controls although other things come to mind.

For this particular data set the survival rate is still an open question but it looks safe to assume that there is some level of survival that is large enough to be beneficial without megadosing.

I was particularly interested in the resistance to some antibiotics of ST. Good to know.

Naturally by now it should be apparent that since ST does not form spores, that portion of the Dr. D quote above does not apply to ST, which does say "Almost all". It would apply to various other probiotics in NAP formulations.

Dr D has also commented on other probiotics and their consumptive value. Part of the commentary had to do with the ability to populate the gut, implied in the analysis of ST in that report. There were also other factors but rather than rely on memory someone should do a search. There was something dealing with "too many strains" if memory serves, but the quote would need to be found.
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Conor
Saturday, June 2, 2012, 12:45am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Lloyd
For this particular data set the survival rate is still an open question but it looks safe to assume that there is some level of survival that is large enough to be beneficial without megadosing.

I agree, although I'd think the results they're concerned with documenting would be specific to their particular strain, i.e., St-21. Which makes me curious about how many strains of S. thermophilus are actually in commercial production. I found another study on PubMed concerning two distinctive strains of S. thermophilus which had been extracted from Indian water buffalo yoghurt. The researchers were interested because the strains were showing a markedly increased survival rate against stomach acid and bile salts.

Quoted from Lloyd
I was particularly interested in the resistance to some antibiotics of ST. Good to know.

Defintely, and it begs the question of why drug-resistant probiotics aren't more often paired with the prescription of broad-spectrum antibiotics by allopaths (okay, that was somewhat rhetorical, but still valid). One example in which this could be very useful comes to mind: Clindamycin. This antibiotic can frequently cause pseudomembranous colitis, sometimes even months after the course of medication has been completed. However, L. casei, L. bulgaricus and S. thermophilus have all been studied and shown to be relatively efficacious in the control of C. difficile.


Quoted from Lloyd
Naturally by now it should be apparent that since ST does not form spores, that portion of the Dr. D quote above does not apply to ST, which does say "Almost all". It would apply to various other probiotics in NAP formulations.

I caught that, too. At any rate, it made me do some review on endospores and exospores and, I have to say, it's an aspect of species survival that's just fascinating in and of itself. I mean, the fact that 40 million year-old spores have been discovered here on earth, that are still viable(*), is incredible. Between them and the cockroaches, I think the key to longevity is contained somewhere within. (:


Quoted from Lloyd
Dr D has also commented on other probiotics and their consumptive value. Part of the commentary had to do with the ability to populate the gut, implied in the analysis of ST in that report. There were also other factors but rather than rely on memory someone should do a search. There was something dealing with "too many strains" if memory serves, but the quote would need to be found.

I'm going to look into this because I recall reading in one of the R4YT books (think it was the reference-type one) something about the Basques having more in common with the inhabitants of some area of the Caucasus Mountains than their immediate neighbors in Europe. Let me see if a search turns up anything .... okay, back, found it. This is what I remembered:

Quoted from Doctor D'Adamo | http://www.dadamo.com/science_anthro.htm
The Basques are an ancient people whose origins are still a mystery. The Basque language, the only western European language not connected by Indo-European roots, appears to be related to several dialects found in small isolated populations in the valleys of the Caucasus Mountains. Although they look much like their French and Spanish neighbors, Basques possess the lowest frequency of blood group B---originally having no group B at all---and the highest frequencies of blood group O in Europe. Cattle, abundant on the European plains, and fresh water fish seem to have been the staples of their early existence, as evidenced by the extraordinary renderings of the famous cave paintings found in the Basque country.

More than fifty percent of the Basque population is Rh negative, as opposed to sixteen percent for the rest of Europe. Like the gene for group O, the genetic mechanism for the Rh negative blood type is simpler, hence undoubtedly older, than the gene for Rh positive.

I know this is kind of an esoteric connection but, in relation to what you said about "too many strains," the Basque memory provided the connection to the Caucasus Mountains. If the Basques did originate from that area, they would likely have been exposed to milk kefir as a staple dietary food item (it seems most people agree that kefir originated with the native people of the Caucasus Mountain region). The reason I want to further look into what you mentioned, and why it's such a dichotomy for me, is that if there is a negative to be found in the consumption of multiple strains of probiotics, why are the peoples of the Caucasus Mountains--the birthplace of kefir--some of the longest lived individuals on earth? ... having more documented centenarians per capita than anywhere else on the planet? Because kefir has more symbiotic strains of gut-griendly bacteria than any other fermented foodstuff of which I'm aware. I think, on average, there's somewhere in the ballpark of 30 viable bacterial strains in non-commercial kefir.

Anyhow, thanks for helping me brainstorm all of this. I really appreciate your input.



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yaeli
Saturday, June 2, 2012, 6:09am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Conor
Defintely, and it begs the question of why drug-resistant probiotics aren't more often paired with the prescription of broad-spectrum antibiotics by allopaths (okay, that was somewhat rhetorical, but still valid). One example in which this could be very useful comes to mind: Clindamycin. This antibiotic can frequently cause pseudomembranous colitis, sometimes even months after the course of medication has been completed. However, L. casei, L. bulgaricus and S. thermophilus have all been studied and shown to be relatively efficacious in the control of C. difficile.

This paragraph and the link are being emailed right away to my former boss, the head of the internal medicine depts and the former head of the infectious disease unit in a Jerusalem hospital.



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Lloyd
Saturday, June 2, 2012, 12:29pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Conor

The reason I want to further look into what you mentioned, and why it's such a dichotomy for me, is that if there is a negative to be found in the consumption of multiple strains of probiotics, why are the peoples of the Caucasus Mountains--the birthplace of kefir--some of the longest lived individuals on earth? ... having more documented centenarians per capita than anywhere else on the planet?

Anyhow, thanks for helping me brainstorm all of this. I really appreciate your input.


First, the question of specific strain of ST is something I noticed as well. You can see why designing studies and interpreting results has so many potential pitfalls. One would think that it would be simple to design a inclusive study but in fact, it is not. That is why considering the study design is important when looking at study results and conclusions. In biologics and biochemistry this is particularly true, wheras for some things it is of a lower concern.

There can be many reasons for the longevity of the Basque peoples and it seems likely that there are a number of contributing factors. Kefir may be one. Is it a major factor? A minor factor? Relevant? Irrelevant? Off hand I have no intuitive feel. Be careful not to find the answers that you are looking for!

Thanks for the intellectual intercourse. I wish I had more time to pursue some of these interesting questions.
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Conor
Saturday, June 2, 2012, 8:00pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Lloyd

I wish I had more time to pursue some of these interesting questions.

I hear you. I have to be careful even when I do have time because, if I let myself, I can go off on a tangent exploring logical, and not so logical, corollary relationships between dependent and independent variables ... and then someone (most often one of those annoying people that keeps reminding me we're descendants of a common progenitor) points out that I haven't communicated via anything other than monosyllabic grunts for three days. <~;

Just from what little we've been discussing, however, I can see why some people devote their entire lives to only researching bacteria. Very interesting on many different levels.

Also, I understand what you're saying about not interpreting data so as to find the answer(s) one wants to find. I have no dog in this hunt per se, as I was initially only curious about the probiotic status of S. thermophilus. In puzzling that through, though, I became even more curious about probiotics in general (especially the premise that bacterial strains can be blood type specific). Too, I'd think that trying to put together a comprehensive clinical trial (i.e., relevant to a very broad segment of the population) is somewhat analogous to writing a new computer OS release/version; having to deal with so much legacy hardware and software makes it flat-out impossible to release something for millions of users which is entirely bug-free (and that doesn't simply crash/lock-up some of their systems).

Lastly, I'm including a link below which contains an abstract (577 An assay system for probiotic lactic acid bacteria recognizing human blood type A-antigen that competitively excludes harmful intestinal bacteria) that I'm going to look into further. Thought you might be interested, as well.




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Conor
Saturday, June 2, 2012, 8:03pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from yaeli
This paragraph and the link are being emailed right away to my former boss, the head of the internal medicine depts and the former head of the infectious disease unit in a Jerusalem hospital.

Thanks for the update, yaeli. It will be equally interesting to hear from you this person's reply.

P.S. I did see the PM and, yes, I will email it today. (:



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Lloyd
Saturday, June 2, 2012, 10:54pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Conor


Lastly, I'm including a link below which contains an abstract (577 An assay system for probiotic lactic acid bacteria recognizing human blood type A-antigen that competitively excludes harmful intestinal bacteria) that I'm going to look into further. Thought you might be interested, as well.



Thanks! Looks promising.
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Lola
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yaeli
Sunday, June 3, 2012, 8:16am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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This is what I need. Nothing else and nobody else can do this for me. I'll listen to this every morning - part 1 before breakfast.

Health Only!!!  



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yaeli  -  Sunday, June 3, 2012, 9:26am
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yaeli
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Quoted from Conor
Thanks for the update, yaeli. It will be equally interesting to hear from you this person's reply.
He replied briefly with a thank you, and that he and his team are of course very familiar with the subject. Quite dismissive.

In such cases I repeat, mainly to myself, King Solomon's words: "Send your bread (=let it float) upon the water (of the stream, I presume), for in time (lit. after many days) you will find it" (Ecclesiastes, 11, 1).

Actually, I just utter the shortened version: "Send", and people know the rest.



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Karma
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Thank you Lola!!!!!!!!
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yaeli
Monday, June 4, 2012, 4:39am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from yaeli
This is what I need. Nothing else and nobody else can do this for me. I'll listen to this every morning - part 1 before breakfast
Once daily.

By the time part 1 is over, I can already have cranberry juice and maitake extract


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Conor
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Quoted from Lola
listen to this conor ...

Thank you, Lola, I appreciate it. (:



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Conor
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Quoted from yaeli
He replied briefly with a thank you, and that he and his team are of course very familiar with the subject. Quite dismissive .... Actually, I just utter the shortened version: "Send", and people know the rest.

Exactly. (:

However, it does occur to me that maybe more Israeli allopathic doctors are better versed in protocols such as this than their U.S. counterparts (e.g., how I've found that, in Europe, allopathy and naturopathy can co-exist less antagonistically than is so often the case in the U.S.).



Compliant, me?!? ... I even attended a university whose mascot is one of my ◆ Superfoods!
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yaeli
Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 5:55am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Conor
However, it does occur to me that maybe more Israeli allopathic doctors are better versed in protocols such as this than their U.S. counterparts (e.g., how I've found that, in Europe, allopathy and naturopathy can co-exist less antagonistically than is so often the case in the U.S.).




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