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CLA - Conjugated Linoleic Acid  This thread currently has 4,297 views. Print Print Thread
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lblackbu
Saturday, April 8, 2006, 1:11pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Lynda Rae
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2 years ago I took CLA for weight loss.  I had great results.

What are the negative effects regarding CLA for O's?

I can't seem to find any negative findings on-line.



Lynda Rae ESTJ - http://www.typelogic.com/estj.html
*Eliminated Sodas 6/2003.
*Limited Bread/Rice/Milk 5/2006.
*Low Sugar Chocolate. OA-3/2007
*Neurofeedback for ADAH 6/18/08
*Hunter 11/26/08
*Health Boy A- 1/6/09 Mother O Rh- Father A Rh+ - 22hrs C-Section
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Don
Saturday, April 8, 2006, 1:12pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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Why not just spend your money on grass-fed meats and get your CLA that way?


FIFHI; ISTP;
Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons
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resting
Saturday, April 8, 2006, 2:41pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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Hi Iblackbu,

although the Europen's (Belgium, I think) started the CLA-craze several years ago ... it was also the first nation to ban CLA as a supplement.  perhaps Don's recommendation is best ... as just one fat in meat, its use will be moderate and safe.

John


ďThe object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.Ē Ė Marcus Aurelius

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lblackbu
Sunday, April 9, 2006, 6:34am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Lynda Rae
Autumn: Harvest, success.
Posts: 274
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Location: Staunton, VA†† U.S.A
Age: 45
Don - Excellent point - I will have to find a good source for grass fed meats.

Sam - I have done all kinds of searches on the net and I can't find the ban on CLA.

Can you provide any links that I could read regarding the negative effects of CLA?


Lynda


Lynda Rae ESTJ - http://www.typelogic.com/estj.html
*Eliminated Sodas 6/2003.
*Limited Bread/Rice/Milk 5/2006.
*Low Sugar Chocolate. OA-3/2007
*Neurofeedback for ADAH 6/18/08
*Hunter 11/26/08
*Health Boy A- 1/6/09 Mother O Rh- Father A Rh+ - 22hrs C-Section
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Sunday, April 9, 2006, 12:02pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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Hi Lynda.

CLA is touted as a potent antioxidant.  But studying its chemistry, it is structurally unique from other antioxidants and could impinge on what we call 'normal'.  Omega-3 EFA's have 3 very close unsaturated sites so that there forms a pi electron cloud beside this structure.  [It looks a bit like a cooked hotdog.]  This formation is the key to the body's ability to transport energy, oxygen and free-electrons (used in many reactions).

trans fats ('t-') are not usual but some fatty substances like butter DO contain a small amount.  In the actual world, a trans-fat truncates and ends the pi cloud.  If you think of this as a type of rail-line ... this would be the equivalent of a side-line with a barrier at the end of the tracks.  Any railway system that has billions of cars to move, is going to have side-lines so as to not plug-up the regular line ... and this is where CLA extra-supplementation should have limits ... you do not want the presence of too many trans bonds, because eventually they will; form as part of the main line .... blocking all traffic.

So this is why the no-no about 'trans' fats ........... CLA has 2 'cis' bonds followed by one 'trans' bond.  Other 'trans' fats are very problematic because they can have this 't' anywhere within the pi cloud forming a strange kink in the fat ... Rudin calls these 'funny fats'.  They have  all the regular attachment equipment of normal fats, so they form strange fat-metabolite (like prostagladins) with unusual-bad properties.

hope this has not been a too poor explanation - it is the image I use to 'picture the scene'.............

John


ďThe object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.Ē Ė Marcus Aurelius

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lblackbu
Monday, April 10, 2006, 6:49am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Lynda Rae
Autumn: Harvest, success.
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Location: Staunton, VA†† U.S.A
Age: 45
Other suggestions for a fat burner with documented result that will produce result for my blood type?


Lynda Rae ESTJ - http://www.typelogic.com/estj.html
*Eliminated Sodas 6/2003.
*Limited Bread/Rice/Milk 5/2006.
*Low Sugar Chocolate. OA-3/2007
*Neurofeedback for ADAH 6/18/08
*Hunter 11/26/08
*Health Boy A- 1/6/09 Mother O Rh- Father A Rh+ - 22hrs C-Section
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Lloyd
Monday, April 10, 2006, 6:50am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1 (Hunter)
Sa Bon Nim
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Quoted from lblackbu
Other suggestions for a fat burner with documented result that will produce result for my blood type?



Excercise. (sorry)
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resting
Monday, April 10, 2006, 11:54am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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Hi Lynda,

Lloyd's comments may not be as facetious as these may be interpreted.  Fat accumulation from food is triggered by one enzyme in the gut and requires only a very small amount of food.  So one of the fastest fat-burners (and healthiest) is to follow the example of farmers .... and do major muscle activity ... exercise or work ... first thing after waking from a night's sleep ... and THEN eat ...

there is also a chemical fix that belongs more to winter because of the increase in heat that your body has in burning fat.  someone who feels very chilly and with poor circulation may benefit from combining: L-carnitine - @2g + calcium pyruvate - @2.5 g + omega-3 oils EPA/DHA (fish oils) - @2g all these should be taken before lunch ... if too much heat is generated, cut down on the quantities.

Another very safe method ... especially for O's ... is Heidi's old trick of slathering oil (ghee or olive oil) on meat.  The oil actually assists in weight LOSS .... it's the carbs that are the accumulators of fat ...

hope these ideas help ...

John


ďThe object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.Ē Ė Marcus Aurelius

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EquiPro
Monday, April 10, 2006, 12:48pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Gatherer!
Sam Dan
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I absolutely agree with John on this one (!). One of the things that I have been trying to do for myself is to get a 15-minute T-Tapp workout in in the morning.  I just posted on FS that I was thinking of moving it to closer to lunch, but I actually think that I am going NOT do it that way, and do it first thing in the morning, after I get my child on the bus and before I eat.

The T-Tapp Basic Workout Plus is on 12-15 minutes, but it is VERY stimulating, not only to the muscles, but to the lymphy and organs.  The nice thing is that it can be modified for even people with severe physical limitations.

Interesting about the ghee.  Do you know what the reasoning is behind that, John?

I'm going to do EXACTLY that right now and this week.  I'm off to my 15 minute workout, plus body brushing right now.

I think that it is very interesting to read a recommendation about something right when you were thinking about that EXACT thing.  I'll do that this week and let you all know how it works for me.


FRESH START TODAY!!!
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Monday, April 10, 2006, 1:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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Hi EquiPro,

... really do not know the chemical mechanism involved ... but ghee which is mostly the fat butyric acid is the same beneficial fat made by intestinal microbes.  It is also the major source of energy for all the cells of the GI tract .... to me this means it will peak the functioning of the GI tract .... without using any insulin at all.  {It is the insulin that opens the doors of fat-cells to store fat.  This is good for late autumn, but not so good for Springtime.}

John


ďThe object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.Ē Ė Marcus Aurelius

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grey rabbit
Monday, April 10, 2006, 2:02pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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John, I am very interested on your theory of taking different oils/suppliments at different times of the year, could you please elaborate? Also, do you think ghee is as good for A's as it is for O's?


‚ÄúTomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It‚Äôs perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we‚Äôve learned something from yesterday.‚ÄĚ

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Connect
Monday, April 10, 2006, 2:20pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
Posts: 743
Quoted from John_McDonell_O+
Hi EquiPro,

... really do not know the chemical mechanism involved ... but ghee which is mostly the fat butyric acid is the same beneficial fat made by intestinal microbes. †It is also the major source of energy for all the cells of the GI tract .... to me this means it will peak the functioning of the GI tract .... without using any insulin at all. †{It is the insulin that opens the doors of fat-cells to store fat. †This is good for late autumn, but not so good for Springtime.}

John


In regards to this statement: †since carbs trigger insulin release, does this mean that when eating carbs, the subsequent release of insulin will ALWAYS store them as fat? †If one works out a lot, wouldn't these carbs be used for fuel, as opposed to being stored as fat?



INFJ

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EquiPro
Monday, April 10, 2006, 2:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Gatherer!
Sam Dan
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I think that is the case - at least with me.  I know that starches (I don't like using the word, "carbs", since carbs are also fruits and veggies) are trigger foods for me AND make me fat.

I was just interested in why one would put ghee on top of meat.  I use ghee to heat up my pans and to saute veggies and eggs, but didn't think about putting it on meat, itself.

As much as I love real animal fat (why eat a steak without some fat on it - we O's have discussed this before), I never liked going to a steak restaurant and having my steak served with butter on top.

That's why I was wondering about putting ghee on meat.  I already eat grass-fed beef most of the time anyway, and was interested in the ghee aspect.


FRESH START TODAY!!!
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Whimsical
Monday, April 10, 2006, 2:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

HUNTER Naturopathic Doctor in Toronto
Kyosha Nim
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How topical, I am currently writing a paper on ghee!

A few quotes from my research:

Quoted Text
The human body requires intake of both saturated and unsaturated fatty acids, and ghee comes closest to having the right ratio of these types of acids (about 60-65% saturated fats, mostly short-chain fatty acids, and 27% monounsaturated fats).


As John stated, ghee is high in butyric acid, which is a short-chain fatty acid (used by the body as fuel) that can also help to heal the gut and prevent cancer.

Quoted Text
Butyrate, one of the short-chain fatty acids, could be significant, as it has anti-neoplastic (prevent malignant growth) properties Ö butyric acid/butyrate, produced during fermentation, reduces colonic pH and inhibits secondary bile acids that are carcinogenic.


Quoted Text
It [ghee] contains 2-3% conjugated linoleic acid, a chemical that may have anticarcinogenic properties.


CLA is found naturally in millk and butter, but in much lower quantities.  The heating of milk proteins during the making of ghee increases the CLA content.


MIFHI E-185
Naturopathic Doctor in Toronto, Ontario, Canada

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Sam Dan
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Hi connect14,

I was using the description of the process as described in T.S. Wiley's 'Lights Out'.  This image is a quick method of picturing a complex series of reactions ... like using the term opening-the-door may describe a simple movement, but it can become lost in a complex technical description ... so the making of fat via carbs/starches/sugars is characterized as fat-producing as opposed to fats doing the sme things ... because these have no influence on insulin at all.

there are fats and there are fats ... what I have said above is usually about the kinds of white fat that are excess.  In working out for-fat-loss, timing imo, is paramount.  To build muscle and strength using foods also extremely important ... food intake is usually timed after exercise ... like 30-60 minutes.  Also the use of glycogen and then fat is a bodybuilder's field ... something I know little of.

John


ďThe object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.Ē Ė Marcus Aurelius

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Don
Monday, April 10, 2006, 3:29pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh-, MN
Sam Dan
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Quoted from connect14
In regards to this statement:  since carbs trigger insulin release, does this mean that when eating carbs, the subsequent release of insulin will ALWAYS store them as fat?  If one works out a lot, wouldn't these carbs be used for fuel, as opposed to being stored as fat?


When eating carbs during or after exercise, within a couple of hours, they will be used as fuel or to replace the fuel that has been used first. So assuming that you do not eat more carbs then you burned up as energy in your muscles then the carbs will not be stored as fat.

Taking advantage of the 2 hour window of opportunity of replacing carbs after exercising is important to speed recovery. During this time the body is much more efficient at replacing the used glycogen stores in the muscles. If you don't take advantage of this shift in metabolism it will take much longer for your muscles to replace their glycogen stores and it will be more difficult to consume the right amount of carbs so that there isn't an excess going to fat stores.

The optimum fuel after an intense workout appears to be about 1 to 4 or 5 ratio of protein to high glycemic carbs. This is the perfect time to eat fruits and or enjoyable treats. And is one perk of intense exercising.

I believe this approach works well for a least type O. I am not sure exactly how it translates to other BTs.  I suspect it is the same, but maybe not as important for say a type A that handles carbs better all the time than a type O.



FIFHI; ISTP;
Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons
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Connect
Monday, April 10, 2006, 5:13pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
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MoDon: †

Are you are saying that a post-workout meal should consist primarily of carbs and only just a bit of protein? †I have been doing it the other way around: †primarily protein with some carbs. †

John:


Thanks for the information.  I agree with you about timing of exercise for building muscle/burning fat.  I workout 1st thing in the morning before any food.  I find this helps get to the fat stores that are harder to get too.  I'm burning the fat, as oopposed to any food I may have eaten.  I usually eat within an hour of a hard workout.

I'm still a little uncertain though......If a person works out daily....this would increase metabolism overall. †Thus increasing the body's brown fat ability to burn white fat, correct? †So if the body's system is burning calories/fat more efficiently, would it really matter when a person was eating carbs/starches? †Wouldn't the body be burning more fuel all day long, thus storing less fat? † †


INFJ

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Don
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Rh-, MN
Sam Dan
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Yes, if your workouts are intense and energy depleting then what I indicated is what is recommended.

I usually try to make a protein/fruit/juice smoothie with the protein/carb ratio indicated as soon as I get a chance to after a hard workout. Then I usually shower, put gear away, etc. and then eat a meal within the 2 hour window. The meal may not be quite as low a protein to carb ratio, but I will try to emphasize carbs as much as possible in the meal. So I do it sort of like a sliding scale. Starting with the 1:4-5 protein/carb ratio right after the workout sliding to my normal BTD meal ratio after 2-4 hours.

If you are working out harder than is BTD suggested for your type on a regular basis, then higher protein intake is important for all types. I up my protein intake at all meals, although not necessarily the one right after the workout, so that my protein intake is higher overall for the day/week.

If you are doing more casual workouts, then I suspect all this is less important and your normal BTD meal plan might be more appropriate, although you could still use the same principles but just to a smaller degree.  Remember, your normal BTD assumes that you are doing some exercise.

You morning routine sounds good if your primary goal is fat loss. What type of workout are you doing in the morning?

As far as your last questions goes, yes, you may be burning more fuel all the time, but your base metabolism does not require huge amounts of fuel. Therefore, that does not mean that you can eat as many carbs as you want whenever you want without concern. If at any time you consume more carbs then you need or can store in your muscle or liver at that point in time, then you will store them as fat. You body has plenty of fat stores so it is good to try to train yourself to use them as much as possible. I think this is very important for type O and probably less important for type A.


FIFHI; ISTP;
Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons

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Connect
Monday, April 10, 2006, 6:33pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
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Great explanation MoDon. †Thank you. †
In answer to your questions (and a couple more, if you don't mind!):

3 days a week I run 3 to 4 miles, and then immediately circuit train for an additional 35 minutes. †So, I am keeping my heart rate up for 1 hour straight....cardio and strength training on these 3 days.

2 days a week, I swim for 45 minutes and do AB work.
1 day a week, I do yoga/stretching/swiss ball work. †

So I workout 6 days a week, and yes, my workouts are more strenuous than suggested for Type As. †My primary goal in working out right now is fat burning and increasing lean muscle mass.

So if I understand correctly: †when one eats starches/carbs:

1) †First, they are used as energy the body needs
2) †They are used to replace depleted glycogen stores
3) †Anything remaining is stored as fat.

Is this correct? †Would this be for ANY food you eat, or just for carbs/starches? †For instance, how is dietary fat also stored as body fat? †I guess I am confused about the ways that different foods are stored.  Isn't any food (fat, protein, carb) that isn't used as energy by the body stored as fat?  Thanks for the help.


INFJ

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Don
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Rh-, MN
Sam Dan
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Yes, I agree with your 3 steps for carbs.

The body can burn protein for fuel, but any excess protein is lost since the body doesn't really store protein other then in muscles and what is in circulation in the blood and a small amount in the liver for processing all the different proteins the body needs. You certainly don't want to burn muscle protein stores for fuel. That happens on starvation diets.

As a type A you probably aren't eating enough lipids to worry about too much excess fat.

Do you mind my asking what your height and weight are? My guess is you probably need to eat extra protein and carbs above the recommended amounts in your BTD. Just adjust your carb intake based on your fat loss or workout performance goals.


FIFHI; ISTP;
Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons
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Connect
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Ee Dan
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I'm 5'5 and weigh about 128. †
Pretty average. †I have always tended to weigh more, as I am fairly muscular. †

-I am eating about 1 serving of grains per day. †(either Ezekiel, rice cakes or oatmeal).
- 2 to 3 servings of fruit (berries, apples and pineapples).
- Veggies: †broccoli, cauliflower, spinach, onions, carrots, brussel sprouts, etc...
That's my carb intake. †Do you think I need to up it? I sometimes wonder if i eat ENOUGH?

Protein: †I have eggs around 4 times per week. †Salmon or Tuna daily.
- I alternate days between: †peanut butter/walnuts/pumpkin seeds. †

So, a typical day looks something like this:

WORKOUT first thing.
Lemon water.

BREAKFAST: † 1 egg plus 2 egg whites mixed with spinach, red onion, nutritional yeast and olive oil: †all wrapped in Nori
-slice of Ezekiel with peanut butter and raw honey

SNACK: † Coffee with rice milk and stevia

LUNCH: †Large romaine salad with steamed broccoli, artichoke hearts, asparagus, green beans, raw carrots w/ 4-5 oz. of Salmon or Tuna. †Topped with lemon juice, roasted garlic, goat cheese and nutritional yeast. †
- apple/pear/pineapple/berries

SNACK: †pumpkin seeds/walnuts mixed with dried cherries

DINNER: †Varies: †I usually don't eat an actual meal...usually just some more pineapple or nuts or a bowl of steamed veggies with tamari or Ghee. † I tend to not eat after 7pm. †I hydrate. †

DAY 2:

Workout
Lemon Water

BREAKFAST: †Cup of goat yogurt mixed with berries and pineapple. †Sweetened with 1 TBL Blackstrap Molasses and stevia. †Topped with Ezekiel Granola

Snack: †Coffee with rice milk/Stevia

Lunch: †Large green salad with steamed veggies and goat cheese
-Walnuts mixed with dried cherries / pumpkin seeds / peanut butter on an apple or celery sticks

Snack: †Rice cake with peanut butter and raw honey or fruit preserves

Dinner: †Wild Red Salmon mixed with nutritional yeast and olive oil, wrapped in Nori
-Steamed veggies with Ghee and garlic

I tend to overdo the nuts/seeds category...but that is what my body craves.
If my goal is fat burning, what changes would you make in my diet? †


INFJ

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lblackbu
Tuesday, April 11, 2006, 1:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Lynda Rae
Autumn: Harvest, success.
Posts: 274
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Age: 45
Not to switch the subject off of Exercise but I a great link regarding CLA and a burger to increase the CLA naturally with a double wammy.
----------------------
http://www.beef.org/documents/23348_Conjugated.pdf.pdf

--------------------------

Jyl's Butter Burgers
   
Prep & Cook: 45 minServings:    
Ingredients
2 pound ground beef
4 oz Butter
1/4 teaspoon ground black pepper
1/8 teaspoon ground red pepper
? teaspoon garlic powder
4 crusty hamburger buns, split, lightly toasted

1. Combine butter, pepper both red and black and garlic, knead till mixed thouroughly, refrigerate.
2. Meanwhile lightly shape ground beef into four 8 ounce 1-inch thick patties. Make a small hole in the top of each patty and place 1 ounce of the butter mix in the hole cover with the burger you removed to make the hole.
3. On the grill place the burgers over very low heat for approximately 25-30 minutes butter side up, do not turn, in the oven place on the middle rack and broil for approximately 20 minutes, check often to avoid over cooking. Watch the burgers until juices run clear, do not turn for optimum flavor




Lynda Rae ESTJ - http://www.typelogic.com/estj.html
*Eliminated Sodas 6/2003.
*Limited Bread/Rice/Milk 5/2006.
*Low Sugar Chocolate. OA-3/2007
*Neurofeedback for ADAH 6/18/08
*Hunter 11/26/08
*Health Boy A- 1/6/09 Mother O Rh- Father A Rh+ - 22hrs C-Section
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Don
Tuesday, April 11, 2006, 2:12pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh-, MN
Sam Dan
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Do you mind my asking how old you are? How long have you been on the BTD? Have you ever used Deflect-A if so how much/long?

How intense are your workouts, for example do you have any idea what your heart-rate is during them?

Quoted from connect14
My primary goal in working out right now is fat burning and increasing lean muscle mass.

If you are already in reasonably good condition, which it sounds like you are, do you realize that it is difficult to achieve great results with both of these goals at the same time? You would be better off alternating between the two goals every other week or two, shifting your workouts and diet to match your goal during that cycle.

Quoted from connect14
That's my carb intake. Do you think I need to up it? I sometimes wonder if i eat ENOUGH?

That is hard for me to answer specifically without knowing a lot more about you and all your activities including workouts. How do you feel? As I said before I would adjust your carb intake based on your fat loss or workout performance goals. Have you tried eating more, or less? If so, what happened? I certainly would not worry about eating all the beneficial low carb veggies you want. Comfortably fill up on them. They are great for you and any extra consumption is probably not going change your calorie/carb intake that much for the day/week.


I'm curious, have you tried drinking your lemon water before your workouts? I would think that would be beneficial, stimulating your system/liver before working out.

I would try to limit tuna to maybe once a week for a couple of reasons. One, it may be higher in mercury then some fish choices. Two, it is only a neutral. Have you tried sardines or mackerel? They are both Tier 1 beneficial and easy to find canned. Type As have a lot of easy to find beneficial fish, at least frozen. I don't know what your options are for fresh fish.

I didn't really notice much in the way of beans/legumes in your meals. Do you eat them? They are a good source of protein and other beneficial nutrients for you. Do you eat soy? Soy and mushrooms are indicated to help improve insulin metabolism in type As.

If you don't drink green tea I would try to add in 1-3 cups a day. That could help with fat loss and has many other benefits.

I assume you aren't eating any wheat.

What are you doing to control your stress/cortisol level? Are you getting enough sleep? Are you doing enough yoga? Controlling stress/cortisol is very important in weight management for a type A, both from a standpoint of storing fat and burning muscle as fuel.

Ar you using any supplements? LR4YT pages 227-8 and the Metabolic Enhancement Protocols offer suggestions that might be beneficial for you and your situation.


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Quoted from lblackbu
Don - Excellent point - I will have to find a good source for grass fed meats.

Sam - I have done all kinds of searches on the net and I can't find the ban on CLA.

Can you provide any links that I could read regarding the negative effects of CLA?


Lynda


This is what Dr. D has to say about CLA, the main negative effect of supplements is lowering of HDL, the good cholesterol.

http://www.dadamo.com/bloggers/ask/archives/00000186.htm


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Quoted Text
Do you mind my asking how old you are? How long have you been on the BTD? Have you ever used Deflect-A if so how much/long?


I am 30 and I began the BTD approximately 7 months ago. †I don't know my specific heartrate, but I tend to be pouring sweat by the time I'm done working out. †I go pretty hard.

Quoted Text
If you are already in reasonably good condition, which it sounds like you are, do you realize that it is difficult to achieve great results with both of these goals at the same time? You would be better off alternating between the two goals every other week or two, shifting your workouts and diet to match your goal during that cycle.


I did not know this. †Could you tell me more?


Quoted Text
That is hard for me to answer specifically without knowing a lot more about you and all your activities including workouts. How do you feel? As I said before I would adjust your carb intake based on your fat loss or workout performance goals. Have you tried eating more, or less? If so, what happened?


I'm definitely not sedentary. †I work two jobs, one of which requires me to be up and moving for 5 to 6 hours straight. †I tend to stay busy. †How do I feel? †Pretty good for the most part, though sometimes I feel a little weak from time to time.

Quoted Text
I'm curious, have you tried drinking your lemon water before your workouts? I would think that would be beneficial, stimulating your system/liver before working out.


I've never tried the lemon water before, because I don't like to do cardio w/ water in my stomach.

Quoted Text
I would try to limit tuna to maybe once a week for a couple of reasons. One, it may be higher in mercury then some fish choices. Two, it is only a neutral. Have you tried sardines or mackerel?


I only started eating fish about 4 months ago after being a vegetarian for 12 years. †So, I will venture into the world of other fish. †I'm only having tuna about twice a week right now, but will try Sardines. †

Quoted Text
I didn't really notice much in the way of beans/legumes in your meals. Do you eat them? They are a good source of protein and other beneficial nutrients for you. Do you eat soy? Soy and mushrooms are indicated to help improve insulin metabolism in type As.


Not a lot of beans. †I suppose I should try including them. †Absolutely no soy as it messes with my hormones. †

Quoted Text
I assume you aren't eating any wheat.


No wheat, no corn. †I eat like a Nonnie.

Quoted Text
What are you doing to control your stress/cortisol level? Are you getting enough sleep? Are you doing enough yoga? Controlling stress/cortisol is very important in weight management for a type A, both from a standpoint of storing fat and burning muscle as fuel.


Eh...probably not so great here. †Yoga/stretching only once a week. †I meditate a couple of times a week, as well. †I was drinking Holy Basil tea for a bit to lower cortisol levels, but stopped. †I sleep plenty.

Quoted Text
Ar you using any supplements? LR4YT pages 227-8 and the Metabolic Enhancement Protocols offer suggestions that might be beneficial for you and your situation.


I take a multivitamin and a probiotic daily. †1 full capful of Nutritional Yeast per day. †I just ordered some Carlson's Fish Oil and will begin taking that when it arrives...


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Connect 14,

I don't think fat burning and muscle building are mutually exclusive.  The body builders I know do plenty of cardio.  If you only do cardio you will probably lose a good amount of especially upper body lean mass along with it, but if you combine weight training you should be able to maintain and even add some lean body mass.  If that is your goal I would just recommend that you do cardio and weights on alternate days.  I would also plan my workouts to have at least once a week a day with no formal excercise the day after weight training.  As an A, lower intensity excercise is best for you and is also best for fat burning.  20 to 40 minutes of walking at 60-70% of max heart rate would be ideal.  If you are in good enough shape that you can jog or run at around 70% max, that should be great too.  Just don't try to combine something like distance walking or running.  That might make it pretty difficult to add lean body mass.  If you have really specific goals for training, I'd really suggest that you invest in a basic heart rate monitor, Polar is a good brand, and a basic scale that measures body fat, such as Tanita.

The guideline I've seen for post-workout eating is to get in some carbs within 30 minutes of a workout to replenish glycogen stores.  This is what builds endurance.  Get in some protein within 90 minutes of the workout.  This is what assures that you have what it takes to rebuild those muscles stressed during the workout even stronger than before.  There is surely genetic variation in how easily a person can add lean mass.

Finally are you sure you need to add lean mass? In my case, I am very overfat, but I find that I actually carry about 13 to 14 pounds more lean mass than is typical for my height.  I'm focusing on fat loss and wouldn't even mind if I lost a few pounds of lean mass.  I am adding weight training to my plan, more from a functional perspective of just needing more upper body strength.

I've seen some discussion that excess weight, even if lean weight still may put additional stress on the heart and other organs.  We were just meant to be a certain size.  The bodybuilding or athletic ideal is not necessarily a healthy one.



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Wild Planet declares their tuna to be low in mercury.  I couldn't get a link for you today because of a sluggish computer, but the website is wildplanet.com.

These are some great posts, and a very helpful thread.  Thanks to all.  I have already learned so much from it!



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Quoted from cherylhcmba
Connect 14,

As an A, lower intensity excercise is best for you and is also best for fat burning. †20 to 40 minutes of walking at 60-70% of max heart rate would be ideal. †If you are in good enough shape that you can jog or run at around 70% max, that should be great too. †Just don't try to combine something like distance walking or running. †



Hi Cheryl,

You may have hit the nail on the head with this.  I may need to slow down my cardio and not go so hard.  I have been told this when I was younger.  Slow down for fat burning, don't run so hard.  It is true that I certainly have a tendency to overdo things if I don't stay mindful of it.

Why do you say not to combine something like distance walking or running?  Combine it with what?  Sorry, bit confused.


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Distance training and weight training just might not be the best mix if you're having trouble maintaining or adding lean mass. †I'm talking about half-marathon or marathon type training. †Distance athletes notoriously lose upper body mass. †That's the area where I'd like to build strength and mass, to even me out a little.

I actually like to use the Karvonen method for determining a good exercise heart rate. †It takes into account individual variation in resting heart rate and gender. †This is a good site with a calculator and some descriptions of good training ranges depending on your fitness goals.

http://www.changingshape.com/resources/calculators/targetheartratecalculator.asp

As you see, if you are already a very fit person you can still burn fat at relatively high intensities. †If you haven't gotten the results you'd like, you might give lower intensity a try on at least some days. †I'm targeting that area where you have both fat burning and aerobic conditioning for at least 3 days. †If I get in a fourth day, I'll go for the lower range. †I'd limit very intense aerobics to no more than 20 to 30 minutes 3 days per week, that's really all you need to keep your heart in shape. †If you want to spend more time exercising, switch the extra time towards lower intensity walking or jogging, yoga, pilates, tai chi or some of the forms of exercise that are more appropriate for Type A. †I personally think we all need to do all three types of exercise, aerobics, resistance and flexibility. †Type A should just emphasis the lower end of the intensity range and the yoga type activities, whereas Type O should emphasize the aerobic aspect. †I do notice that in the Health Library books Dr. D tends to recommend a mix to include some weight training for everyone.

It sounds like you're really close to your ideal weight, just need a little tweaking to get your body composition where you'd like it to be.


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Thanks Cheryl.  I think I am going to try to slow down my cardio.  Do easy jogging, as opposed to hard sprinting.  See how that works.  I think I am working out too hard.  I am so busy all of the time, my workouts should be stress relieving, not inducing.....so maybe a slower pace will help.

Thanks for the link...


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Quoted from connect14
Thanks Cheryl.  I think I am going to try to slow down my cardio.  Do easy jogging, as opposed to hard sprinting.  See how that works.  I think I am working out too hard.  I am so busy all of the time, my workouts should be stress relieving, not inducing.....so maybe a slower pace will help.

Thanks for the link...

I had the same issues. I was doing too much cardio for my type, and as soon as I stopped going to the gym every day, the fat came off with the pounds. I still exercise, just not the 50 minutes of elliptical training. I've cut down to two days a week of step class, bike riding (I'm training for a bike tour, but the incessant rain we've been having has been putting a crimp in my riding), and T-Tapp Total workout (every other day).


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Quoted from connect14
I don't know my specific heartrate, but I tend to be pouring sweat by the time I'm done working out.  I go pretty hard.

With all that sweating the magnesium you are shopping for could be needed/useful.

Quoted from connect14
I'm definitely not sedentary.  I work two jobs, one of which requires me to be up and moving for 5 to 6 hours straight.  I tend to stay busy.  How do I feel?  Pretty good for the most part, though sometimes I feel a little weak from time to time.

That is probably a good indication that you are doing too much and need more rest or should eat more.

Quoted from connect14
I've never tried the lemon water before, because I don't like to do cardio w/ water in my stomach.

You don't need to drink that much water with the lemon. I probably use about 6-8oz with half a lemon. I would think your body would absorb the water pretty quick in the morning, since it is probably a bit dehydrated from all the overnight water elimination.

Quoted from connect14
Eh...probably not so great here.  Yoga/stretching only once a week.  I meditate a couple of times a week, as well.  I was drinking Holy Basil tea for a bit to lower cortisol levels, but stopped.  I sleep plenty.

This is real important if you want to workout agressively then you need to take care to reduce your cortisol levels. Here is more information on the issue.

Read LR4YT page 182 Make Exercise Your Safety Valve and pages 186-189 which present additional measures which can help type As deal with stress.

Cortiguard would be a good supplement for you.

Read this Knowledgebase article: The influence of blood type on stress, Part I
Quoted from Dr. D
The formula helps lower cortisol levels in type A, which they can oversecrete when stressed or working out excessively.

Type A's should look toward modulating the adrenal stress hormone cortisol as a way of enhancing the health of the thyroid, since cortisol tends to enhance the production of reverse T3 at the expense of the active form. For this North American Pharmacal's 'Cortiguard' or the Ayurvedic herb Ashawaghanda may be useful Type A's should look toward modulating the adrenal stress hormone cortisol as a way of enhancing the health of the thyroid, since cortisol tends to enhance the production of reverse T3 at the expense of the active form. For this North American Pharmacal's 'Cortiguard' or the Ayurvedic herb Ashawaghanda may be useful.

Also, studies show distinct differences in blood type and hormonal response to stress. Type A, for instance responds to stress with higher levels of cortisol than the other types. It is interesting to also note that the one form of exercise shown to increase urinary excretion of cortisol is- you guessed it - yoga.

Yoga and cortisol


Read this post from Dr. D from the old message board: Peter! Ouestion: As/cortisol/exercise/food...........

Read this thread from the old message board: Diet for Olympic Level (type A) Athlete and Dr. D's answer.


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I find that so interesting Drea.  There are times when I've noticed that when I quit going to the gym for a few days, I tend to lose a bit of weight.  I just assumed I was losing muscle.  The common thought is that the more cardio you do, the more you will lose.  Perhaps this is true, but only if one is working at a rate where the body can burn fat.  Harder may not necessarily always be better.  It seems it is all about balance.  Everything always comes back to balance.  I find that the more I try to control things and the more I focus on them, the further they seem to slide away...If I just keep a balance, then things seem to flow more naturally.  It's just hard sometimes to maintain that balance.


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Your weight may change to some degree if you change the amount of exercise you do.  The way I understand it, your body stores as much glycogen as it thinks you might need based on your usual amount of activity.  If you suddenly increase your activity, you may see a weight gain because of the extra glycogen being stored.  A pound of glycogen is stored with about 4 pounds of water.  The reverse is also true, if you decrease exercising, some of the glycogen stores will be released along with the water.  I think around a pound of glycogen is about the max anyone will store, so a 3 to 6 pound fluctuation might be explained because of this going on.  Just don't be alarmed on the weight gain side, this is not fat weight.  It is discouraging though to start exercising or increase exercise, only to see weight gain on the scale.

You'll see the same phenomena if you change your carb intake.  You can only store the optimal amount of glycogen if you're eating some carbs to feed that need.  This is why I don't ever do an Atkins type diet.  The O diet is pretty high protein, but we still get plenty of carbs, just more in the form of fruits and veggies instead of the grains, etc.  Having glycogen stored is a good thing.  I think this is what is probably being measured in the treadmill endurance type tests.  A scale that measures body fat is the best way to really know what's going on, water/glycogen loss or fat loss.  You can buy a pretty good home model now for 30 to 40 dollars.


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does eating a bit of fruit after a workout help eliminate the glycogen storage?


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You don't want to eliminate glycogen storage.  Fruit or fruit juice would provide carbs just as well as bread or energy bars.  It would probably be a preferred source of carbs for BTDers.  The water weight that is stored with glycogen is not bad.  It's different from the water weight associated with edema.  For many people, the avoid grains and even neutral grains in excess promote the edema which is not a good thing.  Edema is extracellular water.  There are fancier scales that will even distinguish extracellular vs. intracellular water, but I haven't tried one and don't know what the cost of those are.


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Quoted from connect14
I find that so interesting Drea.  There are times when I've noticed that when I quit going to the gym for a few days, I tend to lose a bit of weight.  I just assumed I was losing muscle.  The common thought is that the more cardio you do, the more you will lose.  Perhaps this is true, but only if one is working at a rate where the body can burn fat.  Harder may not necessarily always be better.  It seems it is all about balance.  Everything always comes back to balance.  I find that the more I try to control things and the more I focus on them, the further they seem to slide away...If I just keep a balance, then things seem to flow more naturally.  It's just hard sometimes to maintain that balance.

My experience is that if I workout like I am an O, then I don't lose weight...I feel really good, though, because of the endorphin release...and if I workout like an A, I can lose weight effortlessly, and more importantly, keep it off. I forget this from time to time, especially if I have been eating a lot of avoids! I wonder if there is a link with smart memory loss and eating avoids? ha ha ha


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Quoted from ironwood55


That is probably a good indication that you are doing too much and need more rest or should eat more.


A trainer at the gym said that to me one morning. †I told him I wasn't having a good run and he said, "well, you probably didn't eat enough carbs yesterday." †That made sense, however, I was under the impression that this was a good way to access fat stores if one was trying to burn white fat. †I did try upping my carb intake the next day, and my run went a lot better. †I think I sometimes feel run down. †


Quoted Text
You don't need to drink that much water with the lemon. I probably use about 6-8oz with half a lemon. I would think your body would absorb the water pretty quick in the morning, since it is probably a bit dehydrated from all the overnight water elimination.


How does drinking the water before the workout aid me again? †Not sure I quite understand this...

Quoted Text
This is real important if you want to workout agressively then you need to take care to reduce your cortisol levels. Here is more information on the issue.


This may be my problem, since intense workouts in As seems to increase cortisol as opposed to alleviating it (as in Type Os). †Perhaps I will try the Cortiguard.
[/quote]





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Quoted from connect14
How does drinking the water before the workout aid me again?  Not sure I quite understand this...

I drink my warm lemon water first thing upon waking, then have my morning BM. I find it really helps to keep me regular. Then I do my workout. Also, I heard that sipping water throught a workout actually helps to burn fat.



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The lemon water is good for the reasons the Drea indicated as well as I suspect a few other reasons.

It has vitamin C which will help you deal with the stress of the workout.

As I indicated before your body is dehydrated when you wake up so that is not good if you are going to workout. Dehydration will add to your body stress and decrease your workout performance.

Also I believe lemon water is supposed to stimulate the liver, which I would think would be good prior to a workout. The liver is an important organ involved with many of the processes and reactions in the body including dealing with blood sugar level, hormones, and clearing toxins from the blood.


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Quoted from connect14
A trainer at the gym said that to me one morning.  I told him I wasn't having a good run and he said, "well, you probably didn't eat enough carbs yesterday."  That made sense, however, I was under the impression that this was a good way to access fat stores if one was trying to burn white fat.  I did try upping my carb intake the next day, and my run went a lot better.  I think I sometimes feel run down.

You have to be concerned about the stress of not eating enough and still exercising agressively, finding the right balance for you.

Quoted from connect14
This may be my problem, since intense workouts in As seems to increase cortisol as opposed to alleviating it (as in Type Os).  Perhaps I will try the Cortiguard.

Do you like intense workouts or are you only doing them because you think they will help you lose weight? If you enjoy it or for whatever reason you want to continue doing them then the more intense your workouts are the more you need to be concerned about stress and excess cortisol. If your motivation is primarily to lose weight, then you will probably be better off slowing down and doing less total work each week with more days off to reduce your stress and therefore your cortisol level.


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Quoted from ironwood55

You have to be concerned about the stress of not eating enough and still exercising agressively, finding the right balance for you.


I don't feel hungry for the most part. †I eat small meals throughout the day. †On some days, I know I don't eat enough, but I don't feel hungry...so I don't feel like I should eat more. †I don't know. †Maybe my hunger signals are off.


Quoted Text
Do you like intense workouts or are you only doing them because you think they will help you lose weight? If you enjoy it or for whatever reason you want to continue doing them then the more intense your workouts are the more you need to be concerned about stress and excess cortisol. If your motivation is primarily to lose weight, then you will probably be better off slowing down and doing less total work each week with more days off to reduce your stress and therefore your cortisol level.


I do like to workout intensely, but not all of the time.  I would probably prefer to do a really hard workout 2 days a week and lighter things such as yoga and swimming 4 days a week.  My fear is that this wouldn't produce results (based on what, I don't know). †So yes, in some respects I have been working out that intensely every workout b/c somewhere in my head, I was told that the harder you go, the better the burn. †I feel like if I'm not physically tired and pouring sweat, then I didn't workout hard enough. †It's strange to think that this could be completely incorrect. †Sort of like having to rewire your brain when you realized that the whole low fat craze was actually not RIGHT. † Completely unlearning something that you were taught and turns out to be untrue.



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Quoted from connect14
I feel like if I'm not physically tired and pouring sweat, then I didn't workout hard enough.  It's strange to think that this could be completely incorrect.  Sort of like having to rewire your brain when you realized that the whole low fat craze was actually not RIGHT.   Completely unlearning something that you were taught and turns out to be untrue.

The BTD has done that to a lot of us about a lot of different issues


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So MoDon,

You would suggest I:

1)  Drink lemon water before morning workouts
2)  Decrease intensity of some workouts
3)  Increase yoga/cortisol-lowering exercises.

is there anything you would change about my diet based on the 2 day sample I gave earlier in the thread?


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Quoted from connect14
You would suggest I:

1)  Drink lemon water before morning workouts
2)  Decrease intensity of some workouts
3)  Increase yoga/cortisol-lowering exercises.

is there anything you would change about my diet based on the 2 day sample I gave earlier in the thread?

1) I suggest you try it and see if it is beneficial or not for you.

2) If you aren't training for athletic/sport/competition reasons I think you would be better off reducing the total load of your weekly workouts by some combination of reducing the intensity, duration, and/or frequency.

3) Yes, Participation in yoga, Tai Chi, meditation, and/or deep breathing is recommended. You will have to be the judge of how much you need to do to control your cortisol level.

I gave you a few diet suggestions before such as trying to add in more beans, beneficial fish, and green tea. Other then that your diet looks very appealing even to me as a type O I do encourage you to try any of the beneficial items for your type that you haven't tried yet and try to eat a wide variety of vegetables.

The bottom line is you are a better judge of what works for you and what doesn't. Try experimenting if you want to by eating more or less of some food or food category and see what happens. For instance, at this point I can easily tell when I don't get enough protein.





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Ok thanks!  And yes, you did give me some diet advice, didn't mean to leave that out!  I will increase bennies (fish, legumes, green tea).  

I think my worry was that perhaps my eating too many of the nuts/seeds portions might be throwing off any "leaning down" but I see now, that I will just have to experiment with them to decide this for myself.  


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Quoted from connect14
I think my worry was that perhaps my eating too many of the nuts/seeds portions might be throwing off any "leaning down" but I see now, that I will just have to experiment with them to decide this for myself.  

I would be more concerned about your stress/cortisol level being the impediment to weight loss, but yes experiment amount of the nuts/seeds you eat for a couple of weeks and see what happens.



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Connect,

Based on reading throught this thread this is what I think.

First of all, I know you used to be a 'starch-a tarian" turned 'vegetarian' and now among the 'fish-atarians'  I think your major problem is that you have not dropped your carbs low enough ever to train your body to burn fat for fuel.  Your body is still trying to burn carbs for fuel because that is all it knows how to do and you continue to feed it more carbs to fuel it- this is probably why you crave nuts so much, your body is trying to get even more carbs from them, I wouldn't worry about the fat in nuts right now, I would worry about the carbs.  You arn't eating many starches but you are eating alot of carbs.  When you feel weak it is because you run out of carbs to burn so your body (still not knowing to burn fat) will start chewing on muscle.  This is probably why you have not seen results besides working out harder and harder.

A side note to this is also to think about everything said before about anaerobic exercise and fat vs. carb burning.  Aerobic exercise is going to further help train your body to burn fat.

another ps is most 'trainers' are full of c**p!! don't listen to them they are fed lines, they will almost always say "Oh you are tired- more carbs"  would you listen to a 'nutritionist'?  trainers are even worse

This is what I would do, and don't everyone yell because it is only temporary to help connects body learn what it is supposed to do to run most effeciently.

For two weeks (this is the min. amount of time needed to switch) a carb tolerance check

No Fruit
No starch
no honey
no yogurt/keifer
no nuts


You can eat
Meat
veggies
fats
cheese
eggs

as much or as little as you want.  Do aerobic exercise, careful to not go out of heartrate zone.

You will be tired at first but soon your body will adjust

After this time, add one carb in a day or so.  For example, day 1 a little fruit, day 2 a second serving of fruit.  Go slow and listen to your body, it should tell you when to stop.  I would also suggest you read Philp Maffeatone's book this will help you in this process



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Hi Laura,

Thanks for the reply. †Is this specifically just to train my body to burn fat for fuel? † †If so, then I can see doing it for a brief time, but in general, I do believe in eating carbs and a limited amount of grains since I am a Type A....as you know.

I don't feel like my carb intake is too much for daily life. †
If, however, you are saying that it is merely too high in terms of this one specific goal of retraining my body, then perhaps I might try it.



INFJ

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Very interesting Laura,

and the supplements of L-carnitine (for the heart) + calcium pyruvate + omega-3 EPA/DHA oils should assist here.  Not everyone's pyruvate mechanism is 100%, so bodybuilders use this to burn fat.

John


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Quoted from connect14
Hi Laura,

Thanks for the reply. †Is this specifically just to train my body to burn fat for fuel? † †If so, then I can see doing it for a brief time, but in general, I do believe in eating carbs and a limited amount of grains since I am a Type A....as you know.

I don't feel like my carb intake is too much for daily life. †
If, however, you are saying that it is merely too high in terms of this one specific goal of retraining my body, then perhaps I might try it.



Yes that is exactly what I'm saying-- 2 weeks, I'm not asking forever, I'm saying give it two weeks, three would be best but two is all I'm asking for, then go SLOW adding carbs back in, this way you can both retrain your body to use fat as fueel and determine your carb tolerance level (aka- the level of carbs your system REALLY needs to function best)

good sup suggestion by John too



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So no nuts during these two weeks either?  

I only eat walnuts and peanuts.  By my own analysis, I was under the impression that these were not high carb, but primarily protein.


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no not EXTREMELY high carb, but the fact that you are constantly craving them tells me that your body is trying to get you to eat starches to fuel itself and you are supstituting nuts instead because mentally you are saying NO, they aren't so incredibly high carb, but you and your body by now are using them as a substitute- this is not good because it ends up leaving you eating more of something your body doesn't really want but is taking in place of something else.  This could lead to abuse and I have a feeling that keeping them in will make it alot harder for you to eliminate starches, their texture and taste is too 'carby'



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Are all veggies ok?  

Are you suggesting that after 2 to 3 weeks of eating this way, my body will "know" which foods it needs?  As such, abnormal cravings for nuts, etc... will disappear?  I'm not sure I understand your last comment.


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I'm saying that your body will switch from carb burning system to a fat burning system and you will learn your true carb tolerance level so you will be able to feed your body the amount of carbs and fat it needs easier.  Right now I think you are using nuts because your body wants carbs but mentally your say no so you substitute nuts which are carby.  If you train your body to burn fat for fuel you won't need as many carbs.  Iit is very important that you STOP the anerobic exercise though, none during these two weeks and none until you find your optimal level of CT.  Anerobic burns and higher amount of carbs and will screw you up and make you go crazy on a low carb plan.  

Non-starchy veggies only (no winter squash, peas, carrots should be fine)



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I'm not really doing any anaerobic exercise right now.  I am swimming and running and circuit training.  With the circuit training, I run for half an hour and then strength train for another 45 minutes, but my heartrate is staying up.  It's very much cardio.  What anaerobic activity are you thinking of?  

Also, the brain uses glucose as its fuel.  So, if I understand correctly, you are saying that once my body switches to a fat burning system, it will only require carbs necessary for bodily processes (such as glucose for the brain) as opposed to requiring carbs for energy?


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How do you know it is not anaerobic?  Do you use a heart rate monitor?



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Hi connect,

some believe that glucose is the sole energy food for the brain ... but it burns glutamine for this reason and burning of fats produces ketones - also done by the brain ... it may not be as easy to burn as glucose, but burning fats will not deprive the brain of energy.

John


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Quoted from lkpetrolino
How do you know it is not anaerobic? †Do you use a heart rate monitor?


Well, because I'm doing all cardio.  I keep my heartrate around 140.  I suppose when I was doing sprints, that was anaerobic, but I haven't been sprinting lately.  Only distance running and swimming.

I was just reading about Philip Meffatone though, and he says that any type of weight lifting is anaerobic and should be avoided during the "training period."  As lifting creates stress, which leads to carb burn.  

So for two weeks, perhaps I should only run and swim.  


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Quoted from John_McDonell_O+
Hi connect,

some believe that glucose is the sole energy food for the brain ... but it burns glutamine for this reason and burning of fats produces ketones - also done by the brain ... it may not be as easy to burn as glucose, but burning fats will not deprive the brain of energy.

John


Very interesting John.  I didn't know that.  
In your opinion John, how much of the diet do you believe carbs should consist of?  


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People that follow Atkins keep their carbs at 20 gms or less for the first two weeks. Some people will get headaches when they first go into ketosis (which you will do if you limit you carbs to burn fat). My own experience with Atkins (lost 45 lbs) showed that I could essentially go carb-free for days at a time (10 gms or less) with no ill effect, lots of staminia, and acute mental function. Wish I'd avoided the pork rinds and excess fat though. I never went longer than that only because it's tough to limit your carbs, not because I felt poorly.

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The more I study and the more I learn, the less essential carbs seem.  Other than garnering the benefits of the nutrients in such things as fruit, it wouldn't seem that there is not much purpose in them.  



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only nutrient your body doesn't really need



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Carbs aside, though....there are certainly nutritional benefits to consuming fruit.  I can see the uselessness of grains, but there are many benefits to eating fruit.

Foods that function as both carbs and protein (yogurt, beans, nuts) are a little more unclear.


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Quoted from lkpetrolino
only nutrient your body doesn't really need


Unless you want to include the benefits of fiber. You might argue that fiber is not a nutrient, nonetheless it is needed. In addition plant sterols and other micronutrients are either only available with the carbohydrate package, or hard to get otherwise. Imagine all the medicinal compounds we source from plants. So to say the body doesn't really need carbohydrates is a bit occluded. From a gross macro standpoint we can survive without the carbs for a while, we cannot survive without the things that are packaged with them.

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connect14, keep us posted on your progress. I am also an A secretor, but have too much on my plate right now to contemplate another new guideline.


Let go of resistance; feel appreciation for what is, and eagerness for what is coming.
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Quoted from Alan_Goldenberg


Unless you want to include the benefits of fiber. You might argue that fiber is not a nutrient, nonetheless it is needed. In addition plant sterols and other micronutrients are either only available with the carbohydrate package, or hard to get otherwise. Imagine all the medicinal compounds we source from plants. So to say the body doesn't really need carbohydrates is a bit occluded. From a gross macro standpoint we can survive without the carbs for a while, we cannot survive without the things that are packaged with them.


This is an excellent point Lloyd. †Thanks for sharing. †There are many benefits to the carbs in fruits and veggies. †I'm still out on how I feel about grains. †My view seems to be changing somewhat.

Drea:  I love your quote!


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Connect14,
I agree in general one should try to train their body to burn fat instead of carbs, but I suspect that it is much more important for a type O versus a type A, since a type O diet should be lower in carbs than a type A diet.

Just realize what Laura is suggesting should only be for a short period of time. As a type A you should not use a high protein or high fat diet long term so more of your energy will come from carbs.

Here are some quotes from Dr. D from the old message board that might provide some useful information concerning these topics. I included the link with each quote because in some cases you might want to read each thread, or at least the message Dr. D was responding to, to put Dr. D's responses in complete context.
Quoted from Dr. D
http://www.dadamo.com/forum/convert1/config.pl?read=88
I don't think that employing the zone principles to their fullest degree is going to work well if you are type A. They are in their fullest form, best suited to type O. It is a large amount of protein and as a type A you will eventually pay the price in terms of degenerative diseases which result from the fact that type A's generally lack stomach acid and don't break concentrated proteins down effectively. Without the stomach acid levels of a type O, a lot of this animal protein is going to be converted to toxins, which eventually are going to have their effect on the immune system, liver and kidneys.

On the other hand moderate amounts of, fish and poultry can be used selectively and the remainder filled in with other vegetable sources of protein, such as tofu.


http://www.dadamo.com/forum/convert1/config.pl?read=110
2. Type A's can use fish or what not in larger amounts as per Dr. Sear's recommendations with regard to activity levels, but not to the degree that a type O or B should.

4. Its possible, but I don't advocate a total zone approach if you are type A or AB. It can be done, but it will serve no real purpose, other than perhaps the short term sense of well-being that would result from the higher protein levels. And the avoidance of simple sugars are starches. The price to be paid down the line is kidney, liver, and cardiovascular trouble. To give you an idea of what we are talking about, some type A's require hydrochloric acid and enzyme suplementation just to do the type A diet!


http://www.dadamo.com/forum/archive6/config.pl?read=21434
If we just go back to looking at the particular diet (in this case the type A diet) and applying prior generalized notions about what foods are good or bad for a particular condition, we are not doing the blood type diet. By cutting out grains like wheat, or vegetables like tomatoes, the type A can very effectively control and reverse hypoglycemia, but as anyone will tell you, cutting out wheat is not easy. Yet it is the best way I know of to gradually rehabilitate the intercellular processes which regulate the conversion of glucose to stored glycerols and triglycerides. Proof of this is abundant in the literature; go to MEDLINE and key in 'wheat germ agglutinin' and 'insulin' and see what you get back.

If on the other hand, a dysinsulinic type A decides to switch to a high animal protein diet, they may very well feel a temporary benefit with regard to the subjective feelings, but they are still way wide of being normalized. They will feel better as long as they eat this way, much like the way that you can heat a house with a faulty furnace by constantly elevating the thermostat. Something will give eventually, typically in female type As, the liver, gall bladder, thyroid, bones and reproductive systems.

I would also caution against trying to find a subtype which will allow you to eat such a high protein diet; the long term results will be quite dire. On the other hand, fish and poultry are abundant enough in the A diet to insure that adequate protein needs are met.

Many type A's have high cortisol levels, especially when stressed or sleeping poorly. Cortisol will tend to aggravate dysinsulinism. Try having a few tablespoons of cooked parsnips, carrots, or squash right before bed; this will tend to stop nocturnal hypoglycemia, and give your cortisol axis a rest, which can often help regulate daytime hypoglycemia IF you also begin to cut down on foods containing insulin mimicking lectins. A cup or two of licorice tea can also help regulate cortisol and minimize sugar cravings.


http://www.dadamo.com/forum/convert1/config.pl?read=49
I don't recommend that type A's do that much physical type exercise. Now, before you groan , let me say that you can do a program incorporating running etc, but you must also seek to incorporate flexibility and mind-expanding forms of physical activity. You might say that perhaps your fatigue is "nervous" rather than "physical". Why not try to blend a bit of both? I'm sure you will find your foray into Hatha or Bikram yoga well-worth the investigation. A good goal for all type A's is to be more flexible and supple at age 65 than they are today.


http://www.dadamo.com/forum/archived/config.pl?read=132491
..the use of a more carbohydrate-based diet lowered cortisol (which is good gor type A's since they tend, when under stress, to have high cortisol levels).


http://www.dadamo.com/forum/archivea/config.pl?read=66795
Generally pre-workout cortisol-blunting is one of the best effects of carbohydrate-loading*, which although normally used only in aerobic-endurance type exercise, has been shown to work as well in resistance training and virtually every other type of athletic pursuit. The trick, and this is the great gift of ER4YT, is to choose the carb properly.


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Don,
that s a very complete overview to this issue!!
thanks! )


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I have said a few times already people I'm telling her to do this for two weeks not a life time



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Wow Don.  Thanks for taking the time to pull together those comments.  I certainly appreciate your effort.  It seems like there are some definite conflicting views on this issue.  

I think what Laura is trying to help me do is jumpstart my body back on track as far as fat burning is concerned.  It used to be efficient, but then I became a starchitarian for years and that seemed to really mess things up.  I think my body primarily works off of carbs and has forgotten how to access those stores of fat that I  need to burn.  Once I get things running smoothly again, of course I will continue to eat the Type A diet.  Although, I primarily think I will get my carbs from fruit, veggies and yogurt, as opposed to grains.  

My primary goal right now is to help my body learn to use its differing types of fuel.  I agree that a high protein/high fat diet is not the best for Type A, but if I am only utilizing this for a couple of weeks, it should not be a problem.    


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Quoted from lkpetrolino
I have said a few times already people I'm telling her to do this for two weeks not a life time

I realize that and I repeated your advice, which I felt was appropriate since the discussion seemed to be headed in the direction of denigrating carbs and that might lead to long term carb avoidance.

The right carbs (BTD) in the right amount (also BTD) is what we all need and type A should eat a lot more than type O.


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I agree Don.  I am definitely not a carb basher!  

As referenced above, I completely understand what Laura is trying to help me do, and in the short run, believe it will probably be good for me.  In terms of long term health, abstinence from carbs is not in my plan!

Thank you both so much for taking the time to help me understand this somewhat complex issue.  I appreciate the guidance.  


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Connect14, No problem, this is a topic I enjoy. I have been athletic for decades and have always been interested in how to improve using normal/natural diet methods.

You also might want to consider taking some liver support supplements like milk thistle or any of the others recommended in the Liver Support Protocols to help while your liver/body is transitioning its metabolism from carbs to more towards fats.


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Quoted from ironwood55
Connect14, No problem, this is a topic I enjoy. I have been athletic for decades and have always been interested in how to improve using normal/natural diet methods.

You also might want to consider taking some liver support supplements like milk thistle or any of the others recommended in the Liver Support Protocols to help while your liver/body is transitioning its metabolism from carbs to more towards fats.


It's interesting that you mention Milk Thistle b/c I have been thinking of supplementing with this to help strengthen my liver (in hopes of helping it eliminate excess estrogens).  My only question was whether Milk Thistle had any estrogenic properties?  


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Quoted from connect14
It's interesting that you mention Milk Thistle b/c I have been thinking of supplementing with this to help strengthen my liver (in hopes of helping it eliminate excess estrogens).  My only question was whether Milk Thistle had any estrogenic properties?

Julia Chang seems to think so. If you search for millk on the web page you will be taken to the list of all the herbs and foods she thinks have estrogenic activity.



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''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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Connect
Friday, April 14, 2006, 7:38pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
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Quoted from ironwood55

Julia Chang seems to think so. If you search for millk on the web page you will be taken to the list of all the herbs and foods she thinks have estrogenic activity.



I knew that Julia thought so...but again, there seems to be some conflicting ideas on it.....Isa had recommended it to me, at one point....


INFJ
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Don
Friday, April 14, 2006, 7:53pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Which of Philip Maffetone's books do you recommend?


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Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons
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Friday, April 14, 2006, 8:14pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
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I haven't read any yet.  Laura has.
I just purchased "In Fitness and Health" last night off of Amazon.  I believe that is the one that Laura read, as well.  


INFJ
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Laura P
Friday, April 14, 2006, 9:24pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Kyosha Nim
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yep, very good, you would like it Modon



If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
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Sometimes you don't know how great life is until you lose what you didn't know you had
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RealGoldn
Thursday, May 4, 2006, 3:15pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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There is soo much info in this thread that i became confused. I am 5'3 and weight 170. I need to loose weight and tone up. I have a pear shaped body. I can not work out in the morning so i work out in the evening after weok. I have a sedetary job where i sit at my desk all day. Any sugguestions to get this weight OFF. This was what i started doing

Mon,Wed 45min cardio on treadmill or eliptical
T and T 45min cardio and weights(arms, back,legs)


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RealGoldn
Thursday, May 4, 2006, 4:25pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Will i become constipated in these two weeks?
Quoted from lkpetrolino
Connect,

Based on reading throught this thread this is what I think.

First of all, I know you used to be a 'starch-a tarian" turned 'vegetarian' and now among the 'fish-atarians' †I think your major problem is that you have not dropped your carbs low enough ever to train your body to burn fat for fuel. †Your body is still trying to burn carbs for fuel because that is all it knows how to do and you continue to feed it more carbs to fuel it- this is probably why you crave nuts so much, your body is trying to get even more carbs from them, I wouldn't worry about the fat in nuts right now, I would worry about the carbs. †You arn't eating many starches but you are eating alot of carbs. †When you feel weak it is because you run out of carbs to burn so your body (still not knowing to burn fat) will start chewing on muscle. †This is probably why you have not seen results besides working out harder and harder.

A side note to this is also to think about everything said before about anaerobic exercise and fat vs. carb burning. †Aerobic exercise is going to further help train your body to burn fat.

another ps is most 'trainers' are full of c**p!! don't listen to them they are fed lines, they will almost always say "Oh you are tired- more carbs" †would you listen to a 'nutritionist'? †trainers are even worse

This is what I would do, and don't everyone yell because it is only temporary to help connects body learn what it is supposed to do to run most effeciently.

For two weeks (this is the min. amount of time needed to switch) a carb tolerance check

No Fruit
No starch
no honey
no yogurt/keifer
no nuts


You can eat
Meat
veggies
fats
cheese
eggs

as much or as little as you want. †Do aerobic exercise, careful to not go out of heartrate zone.

You will be tired at first but soon your body will adjust

After this time, add one carb in a day or so. †For example, day 1 a little fruit, day 2 a second serving of fruit. †Go slow and listen to your body, it should tell you when to stop. †I would also suggest you read Philp Maffeatone's book this will help you in this process




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Thursday, May 4, 2006, 5:42pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
Posts: 743
Quoted from RealGoldn
There is soo much info in this thread that i became confused. I am 5'3 and weight 170. I need to loose weight and tone up. I have a pear shaped body. I can not work out in the morning so i work out in the evening after weok. I have a sedetary job where i sit at my desk all day. Any sugguestions to get this weight OFF. This was what i started doing

Mon,Wed 45min cardio on treadmill or eliptical
T and T 45min cardio and weights(arms, back,legs)


Does your schedule prohibit you from working out in the morning?  

- Make sure you are doing your cardio in your heart rate zone.  I'd cut out the weights for now.  

- Cut out grains and the sweeter fruits for a bit.  Concentrate on lean meats, cheeses, fats, nuts....

-  You can become constipated if your body is reliant on grains for its fiber source.  make sure to eat plenty of veggies, drink a ton of water and exercise.


INFJ
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RealGoldn
Thursday, May 4, 2006, 5:46pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Yes my schedule doesn't allow it. I have to be to work really early and also my gym don't open until 9am. oki am trying to cut the grains but then i can't find much for breakfast but eggs and fruit??? I don't eat dinner cause when i come from the gym it is 800pm. so i try and eat more during the day.


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Thursday, May 4, 2006, 6:20pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
Posts: 743
It is better to eat more during the day.  Your largest meal should be breakfast then lunch.  Dinner shouldn't really be a huge meal.  Maybe just a snack or a small salad.  Breakfast is tough without grains and yogurt...I know.  You don't have to eat typical breakfast foods. You can have dinner foods for breakfast:  fish, etc...



INFJ
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RealGoldn
Wednesday, June 7, 2006, 6:57pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from connect14
I haven't read any yet. †Laura has.
I just purchased "In Fitness and Health" last night off of Amazon. †I believe that is the one that Laura read, as well. †


I got the one "The Maffetone method" is that ok or does it matter which of his books i buy.


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RealGoldn
Monday, June 12, 2006, 4:33pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Thank you. I can not workout in the mornings I am sad for what everyone says that is beat. Do I workout in the range of 70%-80% of my max heart rate..that is such a wide range of numbers. Should i aim at 75%??

How long should i work out in my heart rate zone. I usually get on the treadmill for 45 min.

How do i know when to incorporate weights. I have lost some weight and i don't want to get really jiggly but i have more fat to loose.


Quoted from connect14
It is better to eat more during the day. †Your largest meal should be breakfast then lunch. †Dinner shouldn't really be a huge meal. †Maybe just a snack or a small salad. †Breakfast is tough without grains and yogurt...I know. †You don't have to eat typical breakfast foods. You can have dinner foods for breakfast: †fish, etc...





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RealGoldn
Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 4:29pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Should I take CLA, Flax,Fish and Evening primosa oils?


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Chloe
Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 5:34pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from RealGoldn
Should I take CLA, Flax,Fish and Evening primosa oils?


Do you follow the BTD or the GTD?  Check the recommended oils for the particular diet
you're following.

Evening Primrose oil is listed as a diamond food for Warriors.  It's a source of GLA which
provides a source of omega 6.  It balances omega 3s but I see you've written about Phil
Maffetone's book (a great guy BTW...I used to see him MANY years ago as a chiropractor way before he started training professional athletes for competition).  He always told me I was a "Northern type" as far as the oils went and always had me taking flax oil, NOT GLA...which is why I too was confused when I began the Warrior diet and tried taking Evening Primrose oil daily.  I barely tolerate GLA in general. Maybe one or two pills every few days but not daily, and when it gives me massive headaches, I know to take a break.  It's supposed to be great for
PMS...but I'm too old for that...so for me, it's a supplement that isn't particularly useful.

I am somewhat pear shaped but not extremely so and don't have a very large waist or
a lot of noticeable fat in my middle section.  If you do, I would think the CLA (not GLA)
would be helpful.  It's a medium chain triglyceride and helps to burn fat in that area.

So, if you're not a Warrior and not following the GTD as I am...you might actually do best
on flax oil...I take flax oil and eat flax seeds daily, but I remember Phil telling me the
conversion process of omega 3 from flax isn't always great for some people and so even with a high fish diet, I take fish oil twice a day along with the flax oil.

I'm just someone who needs a lot of omega 3s. I know it because more than one alternative
practioner has told me this.

If I had to give you a suggestion, follow what is recommended for type A...which would be
flax oil.  CLA will help you get rid of belly fat if you have it...(I take that a few times a week
but not every day). If you have PMS or acne, you might want to try Evening Primrose oil.
If it gives you a headache, you know you don't need it.  Other forms of GLA are
borage oil and black currant seed oil.  Both give me headaches.  But I think I remember
black currant seed oil recommended for type A on the BTD.

Sometimes you just need to start out with the simplest of choices...flax oil is probably just fine for a type A as a basic supplemental oil.

GLA information

http://www.mothernature.com/Library/bookshelf/Books/23/35.cfm

CLA information

http://www.eatwild.com/cla.html



"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"
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Sahara
Monday, January 9, 2012, 9:19pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I've read CLA has some potentially negative side effects.     Somehow it burns fat in the belly area while putting fat in the liver.  I read it also destabilizes insulin.  Just bought over the holidays and now not so sure I really want to use.
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DoS
Monday, January 9, 2012, 9:21pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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When I took some, I popped them in my mouth. The NAP ones have titanium dioxide in them. (Why I don't know)
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Sahara
Sunday, January 15, 2012, 8:05pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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No one takes CLA?
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C_Sharp
Sunday, January 15, 2012, 11:17pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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Quoted from DoS
The NAP ones have titanium dioxide in them. (Why I don't know)


It would just be in the capsule.

It makes the capsules white.

This means that many white frequencies are reflected instead of being absorbed.

This helps prevent photoxidation reactions that would degrade the contents of the capsules.



MIfHI                            I follow a SWAMI diet.
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DoS
Wednesday, January 18, 2012, 1:11am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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Quoted from C_Sharp


It would just be in the capsule.

It makes the capsules white.

This means that many white frequencies are reflected instead of being absorbed.

This helps prevent photoxidation reactions that would degrade the contents of the capsules.



It's closer to dark purple, or shiny brown.
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C_Sharp
Wednesday, January 18, 2012, 3:38am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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Quoted from DoS


It's closer to dark purple, or shiny brown.


It must have other things in it to give it that color.

Titanium dioxide is added to make things opaque so they do not not transmit light.  It is a white pigment, but other colors can overwhelm white.


MIfHI                            I follow a SWAMI diet.
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Possum
Wednesday, January 18, 2012, 4:54am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 14442
I've read CLA has some potentially negative side effects.     Somehow it burns fat in the belly area while putting fat in the liver.  I read it also destabilizes insulin.  Just bought over the holidays and now not so sure I really want to use.
I'm interested in this thought too...

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Wednesday, January 18, 2012, 8:40pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Possum
I'm interested in this thought too...



Early impression is that it does seem to have a metabolic effect.
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Possum
Wednesday, January 18, 2012, 8:59pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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Quoted from 14442
I've read CLA has some potentially negative side effects.     Somehow it burns fat in the belly area while putting fat in the liver.  I read it also destabilizes insulin.  Just bought over the holidays and now not so sure I really want to use.
Just read something similar on wikipedia...Be interested what others think?  "There are concerns that the use of CLA supplements by extremely overweight people may tend to cause or to aggravate insulin resistance, which may increase their risk of developing diabetes.[8]"

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Sahara
Wednesday, January 18, 2012, 9:53pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Possum
Just read something similar on wikipedia...Be interested what others think?  "There are concerns that the use of CLA supplements by extremely overweight people may tend to cause or to aggravate insulin resistance, which may increase their risk of developing diabetes.[8]"


Seems to have soemthing to do with one of the isomers.  Also, that the body doesn't really need 3 grams of CLA to keep the metabolism chugging along.  Though it does seem to do *something*     I listen to Barry Sears about these kinds of biochemical processes; he has written a lot about fish oil, arachidonic acid, chronic inflammation etc.  He seems to think people should pass on CLA.  Udo Erasmus and Mark Sisson think so also.
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Christopher1
Wednesday, January 18, 2012, 11:54pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 14442


Seems to have soemthing to do with one of the isomers.  Also, that the body doesn't really need 3 grams of CLA to keep the metabolism chugging along.  Though it does seem to do *something*     I listen to Barry Sears about these kinds of biochemical processes; he has written a lot about fish oil, arachidonic acid, chronic inflammation etc.  He seems to think people should pass on CLA.  Udo Erasmus and Mark Sisson think so also.


I trust Dr. D. If he stops using it, I will too. All these other people don't know nearly as much about molecular biology and epigenetics as Dr. D!
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Sahara
Thursday, January 19, 2012, 5:27pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Christopher1


I trust Dr. D. If he stops using it, I will too. All these other people don't know nearly as much about molecular biology and epigenetics as Dr. D!


Does Dr. D use CLA?  Does anyone know?

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Christopher1
Thursday, January 19, 2012, 6:18pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 14442


Does Dr. D use CLA?  Does anyone know?



Yes! gatherers and warriors use it.
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Sahara
Friday, January 20, 2012, 5:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Christopher1


Yes! gatherers and warriors use it.


Very interesting.  I don't think it's on my Hunter list.
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BTD Forums    Diet and Nutrition    Supp Right For Your Type  ›  CLA - Conjugated Linoleic Acid

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