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Cheryl_O_Blogger
Tuesday, April 11, 2006, 3:12pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
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Connect 14,

I don't think fat burning and muscle building are mutually exclusive.  The body builders I know do plenty of cardio.  If you only do cardio you will probably lose a good amount of especially upper body lean mass along with it, but if you combine weight training you should be able to maintain and even add some lean body mass.  If that is your goal I would just recommend that you do cardio and weights on alternate days.  I would also plan my workouts to have at least once a week a day with no formal excercise the day after weight training.  As an A, lower intensity excercise is best for you and is also best for fat burning.  20 to 40 minutes of walking at 60-70% of max heart rate would be ideal.  If you are in good enough shape that you can jog or run at around 70% max, that should be great too.  Just don't try to combine something like distance walking or running.  That might make it pretty difficult to add lean body mass.  If you have really specific goals for training, I'd really suggest that you invest in a basic heart rate monitor, Polar is a good brand, and a basic scale that measures body fat, such as Tanita.

The guideline I've seen for post-workout eating is to get in some carbs within 30 minutes of a workout to replenish glycogen stores.  This is what builds endurance.  Get in some protein within 90 minutes of the workout.  This is what assures that you have what it takes to rebuild those muscles stressed during the workout even stronger than before.  There is surely genetic variation in how easily a person can add lean mass.

Finally are you sure you need to add lean mass? In my case, I am very overfat, but I find that I actually carry about 13 to 14 pounds more lean mass than is typical for my height.  I'm focusing on fat loss and wouldn't even mind if I lost a few pounds of lean mass.  I am adding weight training to my plan, more from a functional perspective of just needing more upper body strength.

I've seen some discussion that excess weight, even if lean weight still may put additional stress on the heart and other organs.  We were just meant to be a certain size.  The bodybuilding or athletic ideal is not necessarily a healthy one.



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Victoria
Tuesday, April 11, 2006, 5:03pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Wild Planet declares their tuna to be low in mercury.  I couldn't get a link for you today because of a sluggish computer, but the website is wildplanet.com.

These are some great posts, and a very helpful thread.  Thanks to all.  I have already learned so much from it!



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Let me not pass you by in quest
of some rare and perfect tomorrow.
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Connect
Tuesday, April 11, 2006, 9:54pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
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Quoted from cherylhcmba
Connect 14,

As an A, lower intensity excercise is best for you and is also best for fat burning.  20 to 40 minutes of walking at 60-70% of max heart rate would be ideal.  If you are in good enough shape that you can jog or run at around 70% max, that should be great too.  Just don't try to combine something like distance walking or running.  



Hi Cheryl,

You may have hit the nail on the head with this.  I may need to slow down my cardio and not go so hard.  I have been told this when I was younger.  Slow down for fat burning, don't run so hard.  It is true that I certainly have a tendency to overdo things if I don't stay mindful of it.

Why do you say not to combine something like distance walking or running?  Combine it with what?  Sorry, bit confused.


INFJ
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Cheryl_O_Blogger
Tuesday, April 11, 2006, 10:42pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
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Distance training and weight training just might not be the best mix if you're having trouble maintaining or adding lean mass.  I'm talking about half-marathon or marathon type training.  Distance athletes notoriously lose upper body mass.  That's the area where I'd like to build strength and mass, to even me out a little.

I actually like to use the Karvonen method for determining a good exercise heart rate.  It takes into account individual variation in resting heart rate and gender.  This is a good site with a calculator and some descriptions of good training ranges depending on your fitness goals.

http://www.changingshape.com/resources/calculators/targetheartratecalculator.asp

As you see, if you are already a very fit person you can still burn fat at relatively high intensities.  If you haven't gotten the results you'd like, you might give lower intensity a try on at least some days.  I'm targeting that area where you have both fat burning and aerobic conditioning for at least 3 days.  If I get in a fourth day, I'll go for the lower range.  I'd limit very intense aerobics to no more than 20 to 30 minutes 3 days per week, that's really all you need to keep your heart in shape.  If you want to spend more time exercising, switch the extra time towards lower intensity walking or jogging, yoga, pilates, tai chi or some of the forms of exercise that are more appropriate for Type A.  I personally think we all need to do all three types of exercise, aerobics, resistance and flexibility.  Type A should just emphasis the lower end of the intensity range and the yoga type activities, whereas Type O should emphasize the aerobic aspect.  I do notice that in the Health Library books Dr. D tends to recommend a mix to include some weight training for everyone.

It sounds like you're really close to your ideal weight, just need a little tweaking to get your body composition where you'd like it to be.


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cherylhcmba  -  Tuesday, April 11, 2006, 10:45pm
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Wednesday, April 12, 2006, 4:36am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
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Thanks Cheryl.  I think I am going to try to slow down my cardio.  Do easy jogging, as opposed to hard sprinting.  See how that works.  I think I am working out too hard.  I am so busy all of the time, my workouts should be stress relieving, not inducing.....so maybe a slower pace will help.

Thanks for the link...


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Drea
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Quoted from connect14
Thanks Cheryl.  I think I am going to try to slow down my cardio.  Do easy jogging, as opposed to hard sprinting.  See how that works.  I think I am working out too hard.  I am so busy all of the time, my workouts should be stress relieving, not inducing.....so maybe a slower pace will help.

Thanks for the link...

I had the same issues. I was doing too much cardio for my type, and as soon as I stopped going to the gym every day, the fat came off with the pounds. I still exercise, just not the 50 minutes of elliptical training. I've cut down to two days a week of step class, bike riding (I'm training for a bike tour, but the incessant rain we've been having has been putting a crimp in my riding), and T-Tapp Total workout (every other day).


It is not my responsibility to convince anyone of anything.
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Don
Wednesday, April 12, 2006, 4:08pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from connect14
I don't know my specific heartrate, but I tend to be pouring sweat by the time I'm done working out.  I go pretty hard.

With all that sweating the magnesium you are shopping for could be needed/useful.

Quoted from connect14
I'm definitely not sedentary.  I work two jobs, one of which requires me to be up and moving for 5 to 6 hours straight.  I tend to stay busy.  How do I feel?  Pretty good for the most part, though sometimes I feel a little weak from time to time.

That is probably a good indication that you are doing too much and need more rest or should eat more.

Quoted from connect14
I've never tried the lemon water before, because I don't like to do cardio w/ water in my stomach.

You don't need to drink that much water with the lemon. I probably use about 6-8oz with half a lemon. I would think your body would absorb the water pretty quick in the morning, since it is probably a bit dehydrated from all the overnight water elimination.

Quoted from connect14
Eh...probably not so great here.  Yoga/stretching only once a week.  I meditate a couple of times a week, as well.  I was drinking Holy Basil tea for a bit to lower cortisol levels, but stopped.  I sleep plenty.

This is real important if you want to workout agressively then you need to take care to reduce your cortisol levels. Here is more information on the issue.

Read LR4YT page 182 Make Exercise Your Safety Valve and pages 186-189 which present additional measures which can help type As deal with stress.

Cortiguard would be a good supplement for you.

Read this Knowledgebase article: The influence of blood type on stress, Part I
Quoted from Dr. D
The formula helps lower cortisol levels in type A, which they can oversecrete when stressed or working out excessively.

Type A's should look toward modulating the adrenal stress hormone cortisol as a way of enhancing the health of the thyroid, since cortisol tends to enhance the production of reverse T3 at the expense of the active form. For this North American Pharmacal's 'Cortiguard' or the Ayurvedic herb Ashawaghanda may be useful Type A's should look toward modulating the adrenal stress hormone cortisol as a way of enhancing the health of the thyroid, since cortisol tends to enhance the production of reverse T3 at the expense of the active form. For this North American Pharmacal's 'Cortiguard' or the Ayurvedic herb Ashawaghanda may be useful.

Also, studies show distinct differences in blood type and hormonal response to stress. Type A, for instance responds to stress with higher levels of cortisol than the other types. It is interesting to also note that the one form of exercise shown to increase urinary excretion of cortisol is- you guessed it - yoga.

Yoga and cortisol


Read this post from Dr. D from the old message board: Peter! Ouestion: As/cortisol/exercise/food...........

Read this thread from the old message board: Diet for Olympic Level (type A) Athlete and Dr. D's answer.


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I find that so interesting Drea.  There are times when I've noticed that when I quit going to the gym for a few days, I tend to lose a bit of weight.  I just assumed I was losing muscle.  The common thought is that the more cardio you do, the more you will lose.  Perhaps this is true, but only if one is working at a rate where the body can burn fat.  Harder may not necessarily always be better.  It seems it is all about balance.  Everything always comes back to balance.  I find that the more I try to control things and the more I focus on them, the further they seem to slide away...If I just keep a balance, then things seem to flow more naturally.  It's just hard sometimes to maintain that balance.


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Cheryl_O_Blogger
Wednesday, April 12, 2006, 4:29pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Your weight may change to some degree if you change the amount of exercise you do.  The way I understand it, your body stores as much glycogen as it thinks you might need based on your usual amount of activity.  If you suddenly increase your activity, you may see a weight gain because of the extra glycogen being stored.  A pound of glycogen is stored with about 4 pounds of water.  The reverse is also true, if you decrease exercising, some of the glycogen stores will be released along with the water.  I think around a pound of glycogen is about the max anyone will store, so a 3 to 6 pound fluctuation might be explained because of this going on.  Just don't be alarmed on the weight gain side, this is not fat weight.  It is discouraging though to start exercising or increase exercise, only to see weight gain on the scale.

You'll see the same phenomena if you change your carb intake.  You can only store the optimal amount of glycogen if you're eating some carbs to feed that need.  This is why I don't ever do an Atkins type diet.  The O diet is pretty high protein, but we still get plenty of carbs, just more in the form of fruits and veggies instead of the grains, etc.  Having glycogen stored is a good thing.  I think this is what is probably being measured in the treadmill endurance type tests.  A scale that measures body fat is the best way to really know what's going on, water/glycogen loss or fat loss.  You can buy a pretty good home model now for 30 to 40 dollars.


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Lola
Wednesday, April 12, 2006, 4:52pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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does eating a bit of fruit after a workout help eliminate the glycogen storage?


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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Cheryl_O_Blogger
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You don't want to eliminate glycogen storage.  Fruit or fruit juice would provide carbs just as well as bread or energy bars.  It would probably be a preferred source of carbs for BTDers.  The water weight that is stored with glycogen is not bad.  It's different from the water weight associated with edema.  For many people, the avoid grains and even neutral grains in excess promote the edema which is not a good thing.  Edema is extracellular water.  There are fancier scales that will even distinguish extracellular vs. intracellular water, but I haven't tried one and don't know what the cost of those are.


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Drea
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Quoted from connect14
I find that so interesting Drea.  There are times when I've noticed that when I quit going to the gym for a few days, I tend to lose a bit of weight.  I just assumed I was losing muscle.  The common thought is that the more cardio you do, the more you will lose.  Perhaps this is true, but only if one is working at a rate where the body can burn fat.  Harder may not necessarily always be better.  It seems it is all about balance.  Everything always comes back to balance.  I find that the more I try to control things and the more I focus on them, the further they seem to slide away...If I just keep a balance, then things seem to flow more naturally.  It's just hard sometimes to maintain that balance.

My experience is that if I workout like I am an O, then I don't lose weight...I feel really good, though, because of the endorphin release...and if I workout like an A, I can lose weight effortlessly, and more importantly, keep it off. I forget this from time to time, especially if I have been eating a lot of avoids! I wonder if there is a link with smart memory loss and eating avoids? ha ha ha


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Connect
Wednesday, April 12, 2006, 5:01pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
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Quoted from ironwood55


That is probably a good indication that you are doing too much and need more rest or should eat more.


A trainer at the gym said that to me one morning.  I told him I wasn't having a good run and he said, "well, you probably didn't eat enough carbs yesterday."  That made sense, however, I was under the impression that this was a good way to access fat stores if one was trying to burn white fat.  I did try upping my carb intake the next day, and my run went a lot better.  I think I sometimes feel run down.  


Quoted Text
You don't need to drink that much water with the lemon. I probably use about 6-8oz with half a lemon. I would think your body would absorb the water pretty quick in the morning, since it is probably a bit dehydrated from all the overnight water elimination.


How does drinking the water before the workout aid me again?  Not sure I quite understand this...

Quoted Text
This is real important if you want to workout agressively then you need to take care to reduce your cortisol levels. Here is more information on the issue.


This may be my problem, since intense workouts in As seems to increase cortisol as opposed to alleviating it (as in Type Os).  Perhaps I will try the Cortiguard.
[/quote]





INFJ

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Quoted from connect14
How does drinking the water before the workout aid me again?  Not sure I quite understand this...

I drink my warm lemon water first thing upon waking, then have my morning BM. I find it really helps to keep me regular. Then I do my workout. Also, I heard that sipping water throught a workout actually helps to burn fat.



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cherylhcmba  -  Wednesday, April 12, 2006, 5:06pm
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Don
Wednesday, April 12, 2006, 5:30pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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The lemon water is good for the reasons the Drea indicated as well as I suspect a few other reasons.

It has vitamin C which will help you deal with the stress of the workout.

As I indicated before your body is dehydrated when you wake up so that is not good if you are going to workout. Dehydration will add to your body stress and decrease your workout performance.

Also I believe lemon water is supposed to stimulate the liver, which I would think would be good prior to a workout. The liver is an important organ involved with many of the processes and reactions in the body including dealing with blood sugar level, hormones, and clearing toxins from the blood.


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Don
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Quoted from connect14
A trainer at the gym said that to me one morning.  I told him I wasn't having a good run and he said, "well, you probably didn't eat enough carbs yesterday."  That made sense, however, I was under the impression that this was a good way to access fat stores if one was trying to burn white fat.  I did try upping my carb intake the next day, and my run went a lot better.  I think I sometimes feel run down.

You have to be concerned about the stress of not eating enough and still exercising agressively, finding the right balance for you.

Quoted from connect14
This may be my problem, since intense workouts in As seems to increase cortisol as opposed to alleviating it (as in Type Os).  Perhaps I will try the Cortiguard.

Do you like intense workouts or are you only doing them because you think they will help you lose weight? If you enjoy it or for whatever reason you want to continue doing them then the more intense your workouts are the more you need to be concerned about stress and excess cortisol. If your motivation is primarily to lose weight, then you will probably be better off slowing down and doing less total work each week with more days off to reduce your stress and therefore your cortisol level.


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Wednesday, April 12, 2006, 6:22pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ironwood55

You have to be concerned about the stress of not eating enough and still exercising agressively, finding the right balance for you.


I don't feel hungry for the most part.  I eat small meals throughout the day.  On some days, I know I don't eat enough, but I don't feel hungry...so I don't feel like I should eat more.  I don't know.  Maybe my hunger signals are off.


Quoted Text
Do you like intense workouts or are you only doing them because you think they will help you lose weight? If you enjoy it or for whatever reason you want to continue doing them then the more intense your workouts are the more you need to be concerned about stress and excess cortisol. If your motivation is primarily to lose weight, then you will probably be better off slowing down and doing less total work each week with more days off to reduce your stress and therefore your cortisol level.


I do like to workout intensely, but not all of the time.  I would probably prefer to do a really hard workout 2 days a week and lighter things such as yoga and swimming 4 days a week.  My fear is that this wouldn't produce results (based on what, I don't know).  So yes, in some respects I have been working out that intensely every workout b/c somewhere in my head, I was told that the harder you go, the better the burn.  I feel like if I'm not physically tired and pouring sweat, then I didn't workout hard enough.  It's strange to think that this could be completely incorrect.  Sort of like having to rewire your brain when you realized that the whole low fat craze was actually not RIGHT.   Completely unlearning something that you were taught and turns out to be untrue.



INFJ

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cherylhcmba  -  Wednesday, April 12, 2006, 6:24pm
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Quoted from connect14
I feel like if I'm not physically tired and pouring sweat, then I didn't workout hard enough.  It's strange to think that this could be completely incorrect.  Sort of like having to rewire your brain when you realized that the whole low fat craze was actually not RIGHT.   Completely unlearning something that you were taught and turns out to be untrue.

The BTD has done that to a lot of us about a lot of different issues


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Connect
Wednesday, April 12, 2006, 6:50pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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So MoDon,

You would suggest I:

1)  Drink lemon water before morning workouts
2)  Decrease intensity of some workouts
3)  Increase yoga/cortisol-lowering exercises.

is there anything you would change about my diet based on the 2 day sample I gave earlier in the thread?


INFJ
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Wednesday, April 12, 2006, 7:13pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from connect14
You would suggest I:

1)  Drink lemon water before morning workouts
2)  Decrease intensity of some workouts
3)  Increase yoga/cortisol-lowering exercises.

is there anything you would change about my diet based on the 2 day sample I gave earlier in the thread?

1) I suggest you try it and see if it is beneficial or not for you.

2) If you aren't training for athletic/sport/competition reasons I think you would be better off reducing the total load of your weekly workouts by some combination of reducing the intensity, duration, and/or frequency.

3) Yes, Participation in yoga, Tai Chi, meditation, and/or deep breathing is recommended. You will have to be the judge of how much you need to do to control your cortisol level.

I gave you a few diet suggestions before such as trying to add in more beans, beneficial fish, and green tea. Other then that your diet looks very appealing even to me as a type O I do encourage you to try any of the beneficial items for your type that you haven't tried yet and try to eat a wide variety of vegetables.

The bottom line is you are a better judge of what works for you and what doesn't. Try experimenting if you want to by eating more or less of some food or food category and see what happens. For instance, at this point I can easily tell when I don't get enough protein.





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Wednesday, April 12, 2006, 7:23pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
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Ok thanks!  And yes, you did give me some diet advice, didn't mean to leave that out!  I will increase bennies (fish, legumes, green tea).  

I think my worry was that perhaps my eating too many of the nuts/seeds portions might be throwing off any "leaning down" but I see now, that I will just have to experiment with them to decide this for myself.  


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Quoted from connect14
I think my worry was that perhaps my eating too many of the nuts/seeds portions might be throwing off any "leaning down" but I see now, that I will just have to experiment with them to decide this for myself.  

I would be more concerned about your stress/cortisol level being the impediment to weight loss, but yes experiment amount of the nuts/seeds you eat for a couple of weeks and see what happens.



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Connect,

Based on reading throught this thread this is what I think.

First of all, I know you used to be a 'starch-a tarian" turned 'vegetarian' and now among the 'fish-atarians'  I think your major problem is that you have not dropped your carbs low enough ever to train your body to burn fat for fuel.  Your body is still trying to burn carbs for fuel because that is all it knows how to do and you continue to feed it more carbs to fuel it- this is probably why you crave nuts so much, your body is trying to get even more carbs from them, I wouldn't worry about the fat in nuts right now, I would worry about the carbs.  You arn't eating many starches but you are eating alot of carbs.  When you feel weak it is because you run out of carbs to burn so your body (still not knowing to burn fat) will start chewing on muscle.  This is probably why you have not seen results besides working out harder and harder.

A side note to this is also to think about everything said before about anaerobic exercise and fat vs. carb burning.  Aerobic exercise is going to further help train your body to burn fat.

another ps is most 'trainers' are full of c**p!! don't listen to them they are fed lines, they will almost always say "Oh you are tired- more carbs"  would you listen to a 'nutritionist'?  trainers are even worse

This is what I would do, and don't everyone yell because it is only temporary to help connects body learn what it is supposed to do to run most effeciently.

For two weeks (this is the min. amount of time needed to switch) a carb tolerance check

No Fruit
No starch
no honey
no yogurt/keifer
no nuts


You can eat
Meat
veggies
fats
cheese
eggs

as much or as little as you want.  Do aerobic exercise, careful to not go out of heartrate zone.

You will be tired at first but soon your body will adjust

After this time, add one carb in a day or so.  For example, day 1 a little fruit, day 2 a second serving of fruit.  Go slow and listen to your body, it should tell you when to stop.  I would also suggest you read Philp Maffeatone's book this will help you in this process



If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
Art Hoppe


Sometimes you don't know how great life is until you lose what you didn't know you had
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Ee Dan
Posts: 743
Hi Laura,

Thanks for the reply.  Is this specifically just to train my body to burn fat for fuel?    If so, then I can see doing it for a brief time, but in general, I do believe in eating carbs and a limited amount of grains since I am a Type A....as you know.

I don't feel like my carb intake is too much for daily life.  
If, however, you are saying that it is merely too high in terms of this one specific goal of retraining my body, then perhaps I might try it.



INFJ

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probable non-sec
Sam Dan
Posts: 1,797
Gender: Male
Location: Timmins, Ontario, Canada
Age: 67
Very interesting Laura,

and the supplements of L-carnitine (for the heart) + calcium pyruvate + omega-3 EPA/DHA oils should assist here.  Not everyone's pyruvate mechanism is 100%, so bodybuilders use this to burn fat.

John


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

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