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buy local or organic  This thread currently has 915 views. Print Print Thread
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Chloe
Sunday, September 30, 2012, 6:29pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

42% Teacher Rh+ N1, N1b
Kyosha Nim
Posts: 9,412
Gender: Female
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 71
This is always my dilemma...

We have all these family owned apple orchards where I live where we  can go and pick apples from a variety of different trees...many different types of apples...all fresh and delicious...
I can load up my own bushel or basket, take the fresh apples home, soak them in a cleansing bath and eat them just hours from being attached to the tree....

OR I could be going to the health food store, buying organic apples which might have been grown thousands of miles away, travelled in trucks, piled on one another, picking up mold (which I can usually smell and taste) and honestly don't you think these perfectly looking organic apples were probably sprayed with some type of pesticide or insecticide even though maybe not considered to be as toxic as conventional apples?

There's a huge difference in taste when I eat locally grown...but I'm always wondering about
what was sprayed on them...Who wants the toxicity?

What do you all do to rid your fruits and veggies from pesticides? I bought a spray in the health
food store....I always soak produce in a bath for awhile before rinsing and storing.

The thing I like about local orchards is they've been there for decades...I feel I'm supporting local
businesses in my community....enjoy the outing of walking through the orchards on a beautiful autumn day, picking and choosing the apples I like best......and yet, organic vs. non organic.

What do you all think?  And what is the best thing to wash pesticides off produce?

I have tried Dr. Bronner's.....citrus seed extract....have even used a very dilute Clorox bath.

Anyone know what would be best?


"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"
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Victoria
Sunday, September 30, 2012, 6:43pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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You could start by inquiring of the orchard/farm which pesticides are used on which plants.  Many farms that are not organic farms do not use toxic chemicals at all, or under rare circumstances.  



Normal day, let me be aware of the treasure you are.
Let me not pass you by in quest
of some rare and perfect tomorrow.
~Mary Jean Irion
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prunella
Sunday, September 30, 2012, 6:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

swami Explorer
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I have been wondering about the same things.

I know my local produce farmers. If I ask, they will tell me if they have used anything to treat plants. Some farms are certified organic, some are uncertified, mostly organic.

The small independent health food store produce does not turn over as quickly as the stuff in the chain stores, eg. WF.  Much of the produce in WF is not organic, is same brand as regular grocery, but costs more.

I have used vinegar to wash produce and today bought a Trader Joe's produce wash.




The sun, with all those planets around it and dependent on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do.

Galileo
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tessieUK
Sunday, September 30, 2012, 7:31pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Hunter
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I would secong Victoria saying why not ask. I'm sure they will be happy to share that info, and you never know, maybe they use none or very little pesticides, in which case there would be no dilemma.

As you point out how do you know for sure the apples in your store are actually organic? According to my homeopath the organic label has been 'watered down' very much in the U.S.A. Also sometimes regular produce is sold fraudulently as organic. Obviously these issues are more likely to be a problem in bigger more corporate/chain type of stores.

There are two main issues with non-organic produce re health. The first is pesticide contamination and the second is the lower nutritional quality from being grown in nutrient depleted soil. I wouldn't think that the second issue here is as relevant for fruits growing on trees in an orchard. I think if something tastes juicy and bursting with flavour, that is a reliable indication of it being good quality and nutrient dense. The sooner after picking fruit and veg are eaten, the more nutrients they retain (esp vit C.) On balance I think you are better off with your local apples, but def find out how they are growm, if you can.
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Chloe
Sunday, September 30, 2012, 7:54pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

42% Teacher Rh+ N1, N1b
Kyosha Nim
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I'm going to ask at the fruit orchard what they're spraying on their trees, because all the apples look beautiful and free of insects...Don't you think that in order to accomplish that, even when organically grown, there has to be something they use to prevent bugs from infesting everything...They might organically fertilize but to stop infestation of critters, what could be safely used?.

I remember not even a decade ago, all produce in the health food store rotted quickly....Two days of strawberries sitting out and they'd have to remove containers because mold was forming and nobody wanted to purchase rotten looking food. Same with veggies.  I'm just wondering why everything in the health food store looks just like the non organic fruits and veggies...What did farmers have to do to organic produce to give it such a long shelf life?  My neighbor grows his own fruits and veggies in a completely organic  garden. He's told me that once food is picked, they eat it ASAP because it will spoil faster than store bought food...So I know something has changed in natural markets. And I know my organic food has travelled long distances to reach
those markets.  Has produce been irradiated maybe?


So let's say I'm eating the best I can...but still suspect something has been sprayed on my produce  when the sticker says organic but the shelf life is way over a week or more.

What exactly would be the most effective and safest way to remove any residue?

Tessie, the organic fruits and veggies have a sticker....It's certified...but I'm not sure what that really means.

Recently, studies were reported in the news media where they had been comparing nutritional value of organic to non organic produce and results were almost equal, yet here's the interesting part....it was suggested that pregnant women eat organic.. HUH?? feed non organic to your children, your families, but protect the mother and her unborn baby?  It's the same with tuna fish.  Pregnant women are encouraged
not to eat it often.


"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"
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Drea
Sunday, September 30, 2012, 8:58pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Chloe

What exactly would be the most effective and safest way to remove any residue?



Not sure if this is the safest or the most effective, but I use Grapefruit seed extract (10-20 drops in a sink full of water). If you check the ingredient list on a lot of the "vegetable washes", GSE is an ingredient.


It is not my responsibility to convince anyone of anything.
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Chloe
Monday, October 1, 2012, 12:19am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

42% Teacher Rh+ N1, N1b
Kyosha Nim
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"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"
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BHealthy
Monday, October 1, 2012, 1:38am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Chloe
I'm going to ask at the fruit orchard what they're spraying on their trees, because all the apples look beautiful and free of insects...Don't you think that in order to accomplish that, even when organically grown, there has to be something they use to prevent bugs from infesting everything...They might organically fertilize but to stop infestation of critters, what could be safely used?.

"Organic" does not mean pesticide-free, it only means that the pesticides used must meet the criteria set by the National Organic Standards Program:  

Quoted Text
http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/torg.html

"Organically grown" food is food grown and processed using no synthetic fertilizers or pesticides. Pesticides derived from natural sources (such as biological pesticides) may be used in producing organically grown food.

Quoted Text
http://www.mda.state.md.us/md_products/certified_md_organic_farms/national_organic_program.php  

    Botanicals: Botanical pesticides are those derived from plants. They include pyrethrum, rotenone, sabadilla, neem, ryania, and garlic. Strychnine and nicotine are also botanicals, but are expressly prohibited in organic production [§205.602(e) and §205.602(f)]. Since botanical pesticides are relatively non-selective and can affect both natural predators and parasites in the field, they should be used minimally. Botanicals can also affect other non-target organisms. Rotenone, for example, is highly toxic to fish.

     Biologicals: Biological pesticides contain disease organisms or toxins derived from disease organisms effective in pest control. Among the better known biologicals are Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt), Beauveria bassiana, Trichoderma harzianum, and Spinosad. Usually, biologicals are more selective and safer to use than botanical insecticides. However, insect pests have been observed to develop resistance to biologicals, as they have to most synthetic pesticides. Therefore, biologicals should also be used sparingly to preserve them as tools for the long term.

    Spray Oils: Vegetable- or animal-derived oils are generally allowed as suffocating (stylet) oils, summer oils, dormant oils, and surfactants. Also, some petroleum-derived oils, referred to as narrowrange oils, are allowed for the same purposes. Spray oils are commonly used to control scale and mite pests. Consult with MDA’s State Chemist list http://www.kellysolutions.com/md/pesticideindex.htm to be sure you are not planning to use a prohibited form of pesticidal.

     Insecticidal Soaps: Fatty acid insecticidal soaps are synthetic pesticides specifically allowed in organic production [§205.601(e)(6)]. Insecticidal soaps can be hard on beneficial predatory mites, are mildly phytotoxic, and should be used with caution.

     Minerals: Mineral-based pesticides include sulfur, copper products, diatomaceous earth, and kaolin clay. Arsenic, lead, and sodium fluoaluminate are minerals that are specifically prohibited [§205.602(b), §205.602(c), and §205.602(d)]. While mineral-based pesticides are allowed, caution is required in their use. Sulfur can reduce the populations of some beneficial insects and may also burn plants if used during hot weather. Since copper may accumulate in some soils, monitoring of soil copper levels is advisable. Diatomaceous earth can cause respiratory problems in people and animals. Note also that some formulations of mineral products—particularly coppers—may not be allowed in organic production. Consult with MDA’s State Chemist list http://www.kellysolutions.com/md/pesticideindex.htm and OMRI if uncertain.

    Pheromones: Pheromones are hormones generally used in products called mating disrupters. Being totally natural, the hormones themselves are allowed in organic production. However, most (perhaps all) commercial mating disrupter products contain List 3 inerts. Some of these inerts—BHT specifically—have been recommended for addition to the National List in the future. Because the status of mating disrupters is uncertain, consult MDA before using them.

As you can see, not all of these substances are controversy-free.  

In addition, some large companies -- the ones currently fighting to defeat Prop 37 in CA -- are constantly trying to get the NOP to relax the standards to allow more and more 'conventional' pesticides.

So, there are now companies marketing their products as "Truganics" and claiming that the national organic standards have been so watered down as to be ineffective.


Quoted from Chloe
I'm just wondering why everything in the health food store looks just like the non organic fruits and veggies...What did farmers have to do to organic produce to give it such a long shelf life?

Sometimes it is the packaging that prevents spoilage.  Lettuce is sealed in a container with nitrogen, or some other inert gas, to remove the oxygen bacteria needs to survive.

The berries we buy spoil in a day or two.    

Quoted from Chloe
Recently, studies were reported in the news media where they had been comparing nutritional value of organic to non organic produce and results were almost equal, yet here's the interesting part....it was suggested that pregnant women eat organic.. HUH?? feed non organic to your children, your families, but protect the mother and her unborn baby?  It's the same with tuna fish.  Pregnant women are encouraged
not to eat it often.

This study is q-u-a-c-k science conducted by corporate front-men, one of which has a deep history of fronting anti-science propaganda for Big Tobacco.

Stanford itself has deep financial ties to CARGILL, one of the key opponents of GMO labeling and "organic" food.

This whole thing is a q-u-a-c-k science hoax!  

Here's a link to the ...rest of the story: http://www.naturalnews.com/037108_Stanford_Ingram_Olkin_Big_Tobacco.html

(How come, every time I type q-u-a-c-k without the dashes it 'translates' it to 'proscience'?




"Excellence is the result of caring more than others think is wise, risking more than others think is safe, dreaming more than others think is practical, and expecting more than others think is possible."
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Chloe
Monday, October 1, 2012, 2:17am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

42% Teacher Rh+ N1, N1b
Kyosha Nim
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BHealthy, that is awesome info...thanks so much for educating us all !!!  


"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"
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AKArtlover
Monday, October 1, 2012, 11:21am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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local "organic by neglect" is often the best value. if you can talk to a farmer directly, you are very blessed.

also noticed this week that there is a new line of packaged organics/"naturals" called "simple truth" at kroger and the sale prices were similar to nonorganics. they were running a 10 for $10 sale and were sold out of a lot of items.

it is also interesting to me that healthy, high brix food is naturally pest resistant because it gets all of the nutrients it needs from the soil (amended mostly nowadays). i see a pattern in nature... biodiversity, quality nutrients, healthy biome. external/internal.


"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well." Psalm 139:13,14
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AKArtlover
Monday, October 1, 2012, 11:35am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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one thing rarely mentioned is that organics are not allowed to be irradiated. irradiation kills the enzymes and keeps the item from breaking down as quickly. we need enzymes in our body as much as we need vitamins and minerals.


"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well." Psalm 139:13,14
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PCUK-Positive
Tuesday, October 2, 2012, 6:09pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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You mayfind this artcile helpful, it's a bit long but covers a lot.

http://www.jonbarron.org/natur.....wsletter+10%2F1%2F12


Kind Regards PC. FIfHI Swami III Pro

Partner (F) is O+(Non) MN. Duffy Fy(a+b+),  Lewis (a+ b-) Gatherer.
DD ( is O+(Non)NN, Duffy Fy(a+b-) Lewis (a+b-) Gatherer
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Lin
Tuesday, October 2, 2012, 6:37pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Policy checker that is an interesting article. I won't feel quite the same about my organic food after reading it, but will still probably buy organic for the foods that EWG recommend doing so for.
thanks, Lin


Gluten/Casein and Yeast sensitivity.
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Chloe
Tuesday, October 2, 2012, 8:42pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

42% Teacher Rh+ N1, N1b
Kyosha Nim
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Yes, PC, great article...thanks

What I took away was this conclusion...that organic means no GMOs....and for that reason
worth going out of my way to buy organic.  Although local farmers if they're responsibly fertilizing
and not using harmful pesticides would probably be my first choice because I'd be obtaining fresher
food with a lower carbon footprint.  From PC's article

Conclusion - Is Organic Food Better for You?

So where does that leave us?

Although the results of the Stanford study were predictable, and probably accurate within the scope of what they analyzed for, its fundamental conclusion that buying organic isn't worth the price you pay doesn't hold up. In the end, organic will give you anywhere from decidedly more nutrients to profoundly more nutrients, depending on:
Which nutrients you look at
And how into the organic process the grower is
It's also worth remembering that (excluding the exceptions noted above) buying organic will mean that your food is free of synthetic pesticides (more or less), hormones, GMOs, sewage, irradiation, and additives. And despite what the Stanford researchers say, isn't that alone worth the price of admission?
Although any organic food is likely to get you a better product, why settle for low end organic if you don't have to? See if you can find a local organic grower at a farmer's market and talk with them about how they grow their produce. What do they use to fertilize their fields and how many tons of it do they use per acre per year? And do they actively re-mineralize their soil? What you're really looking for is a "super organic" farmer who uses as close to 100 tons of organic matter/compost per acre per year in growing their crops as you can get. Not only will the food be more nutritious. It will taste a whole lot better too.




"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"
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tessieUK
Tuesday, October 2, 2012, 10:15pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Re 'high end organic' I believe biodynamic farming produces the best in terms of quality. Info about that here: http://www.growbetterveggies.com/growbetterveggies/about-biodynamic-agricult.html
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whitescorpion
Tuesday, October 2, 2012, 10:42pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I don't have a lot of choice regarding organic produce so I'll make do with what I can get.
You might think I'm nuts, but I wash all of my produce with Ivory soap (It's 99 44/100% pure), even Romaine lettuce. My boss at work loves cherries but wouldn't eat them because they irritated her mouth. I gave her some cherries washed with ivory (You should see the filth in the soap residue   ) and voila! no irritation. She was shocked when I told her they were washed with Ivory. But guess what she uses to wash her produce now.

There's no soapy aftertaste and it's cheap. The grayish color of the soap residue makes me think I'm doing the right thing.

For I'm nuts #2, I use a Brillo pad on cucumbers when they have that wax coating, then wash with the Ivory. That way I get to eat the skin which I like and has minerals.

Try it if you don't believe me.  


I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose free will. -RUSH
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Mrs T O+
Wednesday, October 10, 2012, 3:27am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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I also wash most produce with soapy water & rinse very well. Who knows what is on the produce besides normal soil/dirt? Do you think the folks who pick it have clean hands?

When I am in a public place, I tend not to eat fruit that is served (like refreshments at a meeting) as I am sure it is only rinsed.

My house is dirty, more or less, but I want what goes in my mouth to be clean!


Interested in nutrition, lactation, religion, politics; love to be around people; talkative, sensitive, goofy; a "fishy Christian" ><>; left-handed; lived on a farm, small town & big city; love BTD/GTD; A staunch La Leche League veteran; b. 10/1947 Check BTD/GTD on facebook!
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Spring
Wednesday, October 10, 2012, 7:30pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Chloe


I have used the water/vinegar solution even though vinegar is definitely an avoid for me. I rinse thoroughly and have never had any problem as I normally would from eating something containing vinegar.


"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." -- Benjamin Franklin
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whitescorpion
Monday, October 22, 2012, 9:01pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose free will. -RUSH
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