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low carbihydrate diets linked to heart disease??  This thread currently has 965 views. Print Print Thread
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greenman
Friday, December 17, 2010, 10:21am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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http://uk.health.lifestyle.yahoo.net/Low-carb-diets-linked-to-artheriosclerosis.htm

Low carbohydrate diets linked to heart disease
Atkins diet potentially unhealthy, study finds
PrintShare SendTue 25 Aug, 2009 06:00 pm BST

© Suprijono Suharjoto - Fotolia.com The Atkins diet, which calls for lots of meat and little bread, may not only be dull on the palate, but also pose a serious risk to your health.

A new study conducted on mice has found that a diet high in protein and low in carbohydrates can lead to a significant build-up of plaque in the heart's arteries, which can ultimately lead to a heart attack and stroke. This occurred despite the fact that mice on a low carbohydrate diet had gained comparatively less weight than mice on a regular 'balanced' diet.

The low carbohydrate diet was found to undermine the body's ability to recover from a heart attack, by preventing the formation of new blood vessels in tissues deprived of blood flow.

The study also found that the standard indicators of heart disease, including cholesterol, did not change in mice that were fed a diet low in carbohydrates, despite evidence pointing to an increase in plaque in the arteries.

"It's very difficult to know in clinical studies how diets affect vascular health," said senior author Dr Anthony Rosenzweig, Director of Cardiovascular Research in Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston.

Doctors have until now relied on indicators like cholesterol, which support the positive benefits of a low carbohydrate diet high in protein, because dieters tend to lose weight. However, this study suggests that in mice, this kind of diet has a negative effect on health that is not reflected in indicators like cholesterol.

"Understanding the mechanisms responsible for these effects, as well as the potential restorative capacity that may counteract vascular disease, could ultimately help guide doctors in advising their patients," Dr Rosenzweig said.

"For now, it appears that a moderate and balanced diet, coupled with regular exercise, is probably best for most people," Dr Rosenzweig said.

The study was published in the online version of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.



All I know is that I am an O and the more meat I EAT= LOWER BLOOD PRESSURE, which should be good for my heart
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Dr. D
Friday, December 17, 2010, 10:39am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Peter D'Adamo
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Mice don't normally eat lots of meat. Their livers work at 7-8 times the metabolic rate as humans. Without the carbohydrates they would not have the energy to repair the arterial damage. Not a good study from which to draw these conclusions.


A whole system is a living system is a learning system.’ -Stewart Brand
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greenman
Friday, December 17, 2010, 11:01am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Thanks Doctor D. The only case study I have is myself.
Eat avoids= high blood pressure. Grogginess, lack of energy, can't sleep etc
Eat beneficials (especially no grains)= low blood pressure, full of energy and vigour
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Goldie
Friday, December 17, 2010, 1:10pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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THE POSTING of this report is making a point that does not apply here... Be aware of the implications!!!  We here are NOT on LOW carb diets !!  so reading this serves only as a reminder of how dangerous headline advice from wrongly conducted tests can be, when applied to other diets.

READ ON:please

I ate perfectly healthy for 10 years and gained weight, was in pain and developed arthritis, fibro mialgia and other issues. I was 20 - 32..  Then I learned about dairy that nearly killed my spirit.

at 35 I went on Pritikin and started to gain weight.. GRAINS make me ill with joint pain and arthritic and sleepy.

Then I went on the Atkins diet and would go back to it if not for BTD.  ATKINS saved my health then for many years, without ill effects seen in my blood tests.  I ate salads with mayo dressing, less sugar and less fruit, I ate meat and I ate few nuts, but ate some butter, cream in coffee, chocolate ice cream and yogurt.  I ate perfectly 'balanced' even if relatively low carbs .. my blood test showed it so.

UNTIL menopause, then I started to gain weight. That was until 15 years ago, I found eating difficult as anything I ate became weight gain.  

Finally BTD suggestions for ME being O was a god sent.. IT IS FAR FROM LOW CARBS.. so the above test is MEANINGLESS TO ME as my diet life style suggestions are far from 'low carbs'.  I eat vegetables and fruit, I eat meat, eggs and I eat nuts and use Olive oil and ghee, cayenne pepper and chocolate.

I was advised then as now not to eat foods that would do damage.  I TESTED AVOID foods my self.. Then I settled on NOT eating any foods that cause me so many miserable issues.

I don't eat dairy, except the occasional snacking on Swiss cheese.  Dairy gives me pain and makes me constipated.
I don't eat grains nor potatoes, nor anything white, except the occasional cheat when eating some pastry or bread which then makes me bloated, water retentive and excessively sleepy.

The MEANING behind this writing and this test is MEANINGLESS to those who understand this BTD diet.

I am nearly not able to eat low carb-- or stay under the 60 carbs recommended by DR Atkins so many years ago to loose weight-- I will say though, that having done so for years kept my weight in check or I would have been morbidly obese by age 50.  From age 21on exactly I was fighting weight and would gain 10 pounds a year and then have to fight to lose it. The last time I was my right weight was at 42.  BY 50 I was 70 pounds over weight and hopelessly anticipating diabetes and heart issues, despite exercising walking and eating as best I knew how - but hopeless.

I went on BTD and finally, ate until I was fully satiated and nourished.. and lost 20 pounds without trying.  I ate all the meat, nuts and vegetables and still few fruit.  I did that for 15 years and overall lost 30 pounds. a great struggle as I felt compulsive needs to eat or cheat and would gain many pounds in-between and have to loose them again and again.  

Then I went on Geno Gatherer, and ate turkey in place of meat for for one year.  I found it harder to stay on that diet as I felt less satiated, even though I ate to fullness. I did lose another 10 pounds, BUT my sugar numbers jumped dramatically as did other heart related tests.  ( I was not on this board then and missed the support dearly.) I was finally considered diabetic, needing meds!

When last year, finding this board again, I tested to see 'which BTD/GENO diet' and found that I was better of with BTD and then chose BTD for diabetes and someday soon will add Heart protocols.  

So the above TEST is useless for me, as I am nowhere near so stupidly advised as not to eat carbs.. This test is misleading and damaging to BTD if so associated.. and others who find eating fewer carbs healthful.  

The intent is not to educate but to make a point.. ANY point can be made and numbers manipulated any which way, (no doubt some value may exist..)

BUT I would be hard pressed to find a person who CAN STAY on low carb for long. HOW LOW exactly???

I would ask how low as compared to a mouse.  A mouse is maybe not a meat eater and eats normally more nuts and seeds mixed with some meat.. rather then the other way around.  IN confinement and unnatural environment those mice might have been stressed to the extreme (deprived of palatable food) and developed heart issues from stress alone..

I think THIS so called STUDY is so flawed that publishing it - is actually dangerous.. I feel so strongly about that that I might need to contact that Doc and show him that one can not take a subject out of context and make blanket statements.   I hope other swill do so as well.

LOW carb is a concept, when taken out of context, it is no longer correct to draw conclusions.

I am so strongly concerned, because if the wrong people read this, like inner city folks who have fewer access to fresh fruit and vegetables, then THIS headline and so called test might send them over the edge to eating grains and dairy, where then in a short time they will be as bad of as where the mice!!

This test is DANGEROUSLY misleading.. and to what end?? a self serving effort to discredit Dr Atkins who long ago past on and can not defend his groundbreaking work that helped millions not to be obese-- a danger much worse then this erroneous interpretations of low carb dieting.. even Dr Atkins advised against staying on TO 'low carbs' .. so all this is dangerous EGO massaging as far as I am concerned!!  


Being here is invaluable, but not enough. We need ALL the Doctors. I needed them for a very small cancer spot-I could never feel!!! Please do your mammograms! Doing so saved me from cancer later on. I am grateful! Thanks for learning from my experience! I was lucky! I wish the same for YOU!
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deblynn3
Friday, December 17, 2010, 2:33pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I like the way Dr D says it.  I'm not a mouse, beside I think of the gatherer diet as a high protein diet. We still are to eat some carbs and lots of veggies which  seems like what most forget.  


Swami, 100% me..
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Goldie
Friday, December 17, 2010, 2:44pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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I dont see it as high-er in protein .. the portions mentioned in the books are regular sizes.. as in when I go out to eat, I can not finish the whole steak (any more).. I was much more hungry and out of control with more carb foods especially grains..

I see on emphasis on eating balanced meals (for O's) in fewer carbs from grains and dairy..more from veggetables and fruit.  

when you look at how many proteins you could get from dairy, beans or pizza .. then the additional meat portion seems not to be more protein.. yet quite balanced with carbs from beneficial foods.   BUT I am talking O here ..  

and indeed I am not a mouse seeking seeds and twiggs.  I never saw a mouse eat a worm.. maybe a bug but never saw that either.. they do like cheese??  is that a carb or a protein for mice and men??


Being here is invaluable, but not enough. We need ALL the Doctors. I needed them for a very small cancer spot-I could never feel!!! Please do your mammograms! Doing so saved me from cancer later on. I am grateful! Thanks for learning from my experience! I was lucky! I wish the same for YOU!
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O in Virginia
Friday, December 17, 2010, 2:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Swami
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I eat an O / SWAMI diet with an emphasis on lean protein and a de-emphasis on grains & sugars.  I still get plenty of carbohydrates from my recommended foods.  And as Dr. D. mentioned, mouse livers are not human livers.
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SquarePeg
Friday, December 17, 2010, 5:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Goldie
-snip-
Then I went on the Atkins diet and would go back to it if not for BTD.  ATKINS saved my health then for many years, without ill effects seen in my blood tests.  I ate salads with mayo dressing, less sugar and less fruit, I ate meat and I ate few nuts, but ate some butter, cream in coffee, chocolate ice cream and yogurt.  I ate perfectly 'balanced' even if relatively low carbs .. my blood test showed it so.
-snip-
That's one of the points the study made.  Namely, that a mouse eating low carb can have perfectly fine cholesterol.  Only upon dissection can you discover the plaque build-up.  Did you have any other tests to show that your arteries were clear?



My SWAMI diet is a blend of BTD and GTD Explorer, but I'm not totally compliant.  Also I try to choose foods that have a Low Glycemic index.  DW and DD are A+, probably also Explorer.
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Goldie
Friday, December 17, 2010, 7:38pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

All Gatherer -70 Scorp/Sag on BTD/GENO 17 year
Sam Dan
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yes then I did and they where clear..


Being here is invaluable, but not enough. We need ALL the Doctors. I needed them for a very small cancer spot-I could never feel!!! Please do your mammograms! Doing so saved me from cancer later on. I am grateful! Thanks for learning from my experience! I was lucky! I wish the same for YOU!
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DoS
Friday, December 17, 2010, 7:44pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Dr. D
Mice don't normally eat lots of meat. Their livers work at 7-8 times the metabolic rate as humans. Without the carbohydrates they would not have the energy to repair the arterial damage. Not a good study from which to draw these conclusions.


You are swimming in the wrong sea. How unfortunate that you did not choose to be floating around in association of a bunch of hacks that study rats and fail to note what a Naturalpathic doctor noticed right away (You need some kind of more fitting title of ridiculous nature to fit you better).
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Mayflowers
Saturday, December 18, 2010, 1:10am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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DOS when you quote someone you are basically talking to THEM. So I think you might want to change your post and talk to greenman.  
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Mayflowers
Saturday, December 18, 2010, 1:14am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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My O son is back from the Army.. He said he was eating a lot of wheat the first week..( against what I recommended. I told him to concentrate on meat, vegetables and fruits) I guess he was testing me... He said he felt lousy. When he switched to meat and vegetables..eggs and fruit and cut his wheat way back, he felt much better.

I was myself going to comment that aren't mice mostly grain eaters or herbavores? But Dr. D beat me to it.
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jayneeo
Saturday, December 18, 2010, 10:03pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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my swami emphasis is definitely lo-carb....and it feels very right for me.
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Possum
Saturday, December 18, 2010, 11:09pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 815
I was myself going to comment that aren't mice mostly grain eaters or herbavores? But Dr. D beat me to it.
Which of these categories does cheese fall into?
I guess raisins & peanut butter may fall into either (which I have read they can't resist, or easily get off - traps)

Field mice are obviously grain eaters and/or herbivores, but I would say they would have had to evolve as fields disappear under suburban sprawl...As a result house mice are obviously more opportunistic (out of necessity) I have heard they will also go for bacon

We even had one that had eaten half a block of chocolate once
There was a huge sense of poetic justice later, when he was found squished under our tyres in the garage
He obviously got too fat to run, or maybe it was the "new & improved" ingredients in the Cadbury chocolate that killed him Yeah I reckon the latter
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DoS
Sunday, December 19, 2010, 12:10am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 815
DOS when you quote someone you are basically talking to THEM. So I think you might want to change your post and talk to greenman.  



That was directed to Dr. D.

That is empathy for the headaches he must get trying to cope with his involvement with smart and horrible confused people in the same field.

Soo what are you talking about? I was not speaking to greenman at all.
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Green Root
Friday, January 7, 2011, 11:14am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Hi Greenman and Goldie,

may I cite your texts in this thread in my blog (it is in Finnish language but may I take some English quotations, too)?

Thank you both, whatever you will answer!

If someone of you can Finnish, the address is
http://vihertuomo.blogspot.com/



He [Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1 John 2:2)
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paul clucas
Friday, January 7, 2011, 1:38pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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In "Science" journalism, you get either science or journalism, but rarely both.

This piece is designed to put people off low carb diets.  First the picture is of a man in front of a plate with four raw steaks - could even an O secretor digest raw meat?  The article opens with the lots of meat/little bread and the first point is that it is boring (emotional) and that it might be unhealthy (rational, except the premise is flawed).

Then we get the application of the mouse model which Dr. D' Adamo has skewered already.

The main problem is that the assumption of uniformity behind the human study.  It is basically like taking a paper bag full of smarties, crushing them and mashing them together inside the bag.  When the pulp is taken out and examined the conclusion is that smarties are all a kind of greyish-brown.

The seemingly innocuous conclusion of "Hey hedge your bets and go for a mixed diet" is the same as saying all the smarties are brown.  Type As on a mixed diet might get too much meat - especially if they take the suggestion in the picture literally (pork tartar, anyone?      )  Type Bs will generally do better, but will likely end up eating chicken.   Although I have not experienced it, the testimonials of Bs upon getting rid of chicken are strongly and consistently positive.  Type Os who eat on the diets designed by Dr. D' Adamo protect their digestive tract from the ravages that only eating unchecked varieties of gains can do.  That last one I do have direct experience to vouch for.

I do not doubt Dr. D' Adamo. Here, I am just looking at the evidence available.  My conclusion: not all smarties are brown.


My weight loss goal: 220 lbs.  A 6'4" dyslexic oddball: the size of a line-backer, the silhouette of Winnie-the-Pooh.
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Mayflowers
Friday, January 7, 2011, 3:13pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from DoS

That was directed to Dr. D..


Oh.  I must have mis-understood your sarcasm...
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O plus
Sunday, January 9, 2011, 7:31am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I don't know what's going on with me lately. But I'm totally off of red meat. I moved to chicen then to ground turkey. And now I'm off of those and on to all fish. Whne I eat fish it's either lobster, shrimp or sardines either with a salad or just some butter.  I've also been craving carbs lately and I'm listening to what my body is asking for. I eat mostly rice chips and  chocolate bars as snacks when I crave carbs. But it definitly has me feeling improved from the diet of mostly salads and fish.

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Possum
Sunday, January 9, 2011, 9:14am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from paul clucas
Then we get the application of the mouse model which Dr. D' Adamo has skewered already.
The visual is just terrific!!!

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Cristina
Sunday, January 9, 2011, 9:21am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Possum
The visual is just terrific!!!







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