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Why were Indians so sensitive to Alcohol?  This thread currently has 6,471 views. Print Print Thread
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Christopher
Saturday, October 11, 2008, 8:41pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Any kind of narcotic pain reliever messes me up pretty bad.
I have always engaged in strenuous weight lifting or martial arts.
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Still
Sunday, October 12, 2008, 12:02am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I wonder if there would be a way to find out if the yeasts that create alcohol EXISTED in the New World before Mr. Columbus arrived in 1492??

As an aside, anybody on here try wine-making?  When we first moved into our present central northwest Arkansas abode in "dry" Newton County, a neighbor invited me to help her out in making wine from nearby wild woods grapes she had picked.  I had made a little wine in earlier years, so figured that the grapes would have the necessary yeasts ON their skins, and all that needed to be done was mash the grapes and add some water, let it ferment a few days, then strain off the liquids to ferment further into wine.  But after the wine had fermented to the point that it had stopped producing gas and could be capped, upon uncapping it to taste, it was BLLEHHHHHHH, musty and horrible tasting.  ... I haven't made wine from local grapes since.  ... could there have been some "nasty tasting invasive yeast" that spoiled any of the Indians' attempts to make alcohol?  ... another theory.


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Still
Sunday, October 12, 2008, 12:10am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Maldo


Tim Flannary proposed something like this in his book The Last Frontier if I remember right.   He was specific with his opinion that migration moved into the Americas 13,500 years ago, over an ice bridge.    This book is quite stunning to read from a climate change point of view, by the way


Maldo, I can't find that book online ... darn ...



Peace, be Still.
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TJ
Sunday, October 12, 2008, 12:13am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Still, that would probably be the invasive bacteria in the mix.  They produce lactic acid, which ruins the taste, if I understand correctly...I don't make or drink alcoholic drinks!
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Maldo
Sunday, October 12, 2008, 12:33am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Still


Maldo, I can't find that book online ... darn ...



Sorry, its The Eternal Frontier

[url] http://www.amazon.com/Eternal-Frontier-Ecological-History-America/dp/0871137895 [/url]

He's written a few books and the other one I really like is The Future Eaters, which is about the evolution and anthropology of Australia, New Zealand and Pacific Islands,


"You're not disabled by the disabilities you have, you are able by the abilities you have." - Oscar Pistorius
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Ribbit
Sunday, October 12, 2008, 1:01am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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This is from my geneticist husband who knows all sorts of ... well, STUFF, for lack of a better word:

Indians did have alcohol.  They had fermented cactus beverages.  Ever eaten wild muscadines off the ground that sat there too long?  They taste alcoholic to me!  There are places in South or Central America (help me out, Lola) where the old ladies sit around and chew wads of bread, then let it sit out in the sun and ferment.  Then everybody comes along and enjoys them later.

Y'all are arguing Lamarkian evolution* (e.g. there was no alcohol here, therefore they didn't develop the ability to metabolize alcohol.) The fact that there's so little alcohol tolerance among them is really a product of "dumb luck"--In reality Native American populations have the lowest genetic diversity of any population the world.  (This is why our diseases knocked them out.)  They all came from a very small founding population in Northeast Asia (Siberia area).

*The inheritance of acquired characteristics:  if you cut the tails off mice for many generations, their tails get shorter.  This is obviously not true.

Of course they had yeasts.  The wind blows all around the earth.  The wind carries sand and dust from the Sahara desert (millions of tons a year) and dumps it all over the Caribbean.  


ISTJ, BTD since 5/05.  Battling chronic Lyme disease since ~1985.

"Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial..."  I Corinthians 6:12

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Lola
Sunday, October 12, 2008, 3:02am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Pulque is a made from the fermented juice of the maguey,
http://www.nicks.com.au/index.aspx?link_id=76.1261


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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Vicki
Sunday, October 12, 2008, 2:27pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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RedLilac
Sunday, October 12, 2008, 3:25pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 815


Hi dawg, yes..we are "cheap dates" .  I have to stick to coffee when I go out with a guy    

You know my father, AB, was not an alchoholic, but he indulged. He had a stock of Seagram's royal crown, gin, vodka.   that I gave away. If you look in the album at me in the pics with him, you'll see him holding a high ball. (Canadian Club and ginger ale he liked at holidays and events.)    Me? I'm a pirate. I like rum.(drinks,balls,Italian pastries) I don't indulge very often..anymore, especially since I've been more health conscious..and reading what Dr. D says about alcohol..

That's ok Ms. Ribbit..I wouldn't mind being an RN


I got into this thread late the quote is from #25 but I just had to remark.  Your AB Father drank Canadian Club and ginger ale mine CC Manhattan.

I can out drink my son when we go on vacations where I allow myself to indulge when Im not driving, staying in a hotel and no co-workers or neighbors around.  His friends tease him because after 2 or 3 beers he falls asleep in his chair. Forget hard alcohol, he gets very drunk very fast.  Like   Diana, I like rum. I also drink wine, I cant stand beer.  I think it is because I am a non-secretor and my son is a secretor.  I would bet my Father was a non-secretor also.  The NA were also secretors.


I am B- NON-Sec Explorer; my son is B+ SEC Nomad; my Mother was O+; and my Father was AB-
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Revised from Arlene B- NonSec to RedLilac on 3/31/06
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Lola
Sunday, October 12, 2008, 4:07pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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great link! thanks Vicki!

no chicha or whatever it s called for me, thanks!!!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
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Ribbit
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That's interesting.  I wonder if sercretor status plays a part in alcoholism.


ISTJ, BTD since 5/05.  Battling chronic Lyme disease since ~1985.

"Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial..."  I Corinthians 6:12

Family: 3 As, 1 B, 1 AB, 1 O
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Schluggell
Monday, October 13, 2008, 1:09pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Alcohol: 1543, "fine powder produced by sublimination," from M.L. alcohol "powdered ore of antimony," from Arabic al-kuhul "kohl," the fine metallic powder used to darken the eyelids, from kahala "to stain, paint." The al- is the Arabic definite article, "the." "Powdered cosmetic" was the earliest sense in Eng.; definition broadened 1672 to "any subliminated substance, the pure spirit of anything." Modern sense of "intoxicating ingredient in strong liquor" is first recorded 1753, short for alcohol of wine, which was extended to "the intoxicating element in fermented liquors." In organic chemistry, the word was extended 1850 to the class of compounds of the same type as this. Alcoholism "disease of alcohol addiction" is from 1852; alcoholic "one who is addicted to drinking in excess" is from 1891.

Inebriate: 1447, originally an adj., from L. inebriatus, pp. of inebriare "to make drunk," from in- "in" + ebriare "make drunk," from ebrius "drunk," of unknown origin. The verb meaning "to intoxicate" is first recorded 1497.

Which coincides better with the distilled products of higher concentration being cheap enough for common people to afford.
There certainly was distillates used before this, but commonly would have been diluted.

But then there is even the possibility of a Thiamin Deficiency {Vitamin B1}...

Certainly 'fermented products' would not have been unknown to them - But I can think of a few native cultures with taboos for even touching such things. But I guess none really explains the WHY?...


Herr Schlggell -- Establish a Garden; Cultivate Community. "To see things in the seed, that is genius. He who obtains has little. He who scatters has much. The way to do is to be." -Lao Tzu
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jayneeo
Monday, October 13, 2008, 5:28pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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there is a genetic trait of not being able to metabolize alcohol via the liver....I saw an article on this recently, but where? and that it was common in Native Americans.....its like one gene...

Interesting what Schlugell noted about "the sublimated" part of substances...like how we call alcohol "spirits"...
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RedLilac
Monday, October 13, 2008, 8:25pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Ribbit
That's interesting.  I wonder if sercretor status plays a part in alcoholism.


One of Dr Ds books said that liquor was beneficial to non-secretors in moderation.   The caveat was that non-secretors were also highly susceptible to alcoholism.


I am B- NON-Sec Explorer; my son is B+ SEC Nomad; my Mother was O+; and my Father was AB-
SWAMI Thanksgiving present 2008
Revised from Arlene B- NonSec to RedLilac on 3/31/06
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Mayflowers
Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 2:16pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from RedLilac

I got into this thread late – the quote is from #25 but I just had to remark.  Your AB Father drank Canadian Club and ginger ale mine CC Manhattan.


Canadian Club must be an AB thing huh?   My father's other fav drink was a Manhattan with a cherry.  I tend to be more like my mother as far as alcohol. I like the occasional rum drink when going out to a nice place for dinner, if not driving...yeah a really nice place. how often does that happen ? I usually have 1 glass of wine a week..It makes me too tired and depressed if I drink more than that. Before GTD when I was eating SAD, I'd have 2-3 glasses a week. Seems I'm more sensitive now on GTD. OR, it's M.
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Peppermint Twist
Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 2:58pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from jayneeo
I have heard there is a gene for alcoholism....and they have it....

As Dr. D. said, it is that there are a lot of nons in the native American population.  Non-secretorhood comes bundled with the gene that makes one sensitive to alcohol.  All part of the chromosomal software "suite".

O non with a strong family history of alcoholism, OUT!  Back IN to say, I stay away from the stuff, personally.  Staring down the barrel of alcoholism is too scary.  I don't care to test fate, ya know?  Not when it comes to alcoholism.  I've seen what it does to individuals and families up close and personal.


"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Revision History (2 edits)
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Peppermint Twist
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Quoted from Victoria
When you consider how the modern Native American diet is so wrong from a BTD standpoint, it's not hard to see how severe imbalances in their bodies can make them even more susceptible to addiction.

And, as Isa speculated, there may be a very large percentage of Gatherers, who do not handle alcohol well, at all.  And they are easily caught in the craving/compulsion loop.

Yup.  They never had a shot outta the gate.  I mean, if you are living in the modern American complete surround-sound experience of Budweiser and Fritos, and you are a Native American Type O non-secretor Gatherer...    Well, put it this way, your system is going to be inundated with substances it was never designed to handle.  Then again, that pretty much applies to all of us when it comes to the modern food supply, but Native Americans are especially sensitive to substances like alcohol and high-fructose corn syrup.



"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Peppermint Twist
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Quoted from 815
Rum, lime juice, fresh spearmint leaves and seltzer or club soda. You can add sugar if desired.

Okay, with those ingredients, how bad could it be?!  Good thing I never tried that, or me thinks I would have ended up having one too many!!!  Um UM, that sounds good right about now...

...but I'll stick to my kukicha and peppermint tea mix.  



"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Peppermint Twist
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Quoted from Sarah
Hi, newbie here.  Doesn't alcoholism have a link to hypoglycemia?  Sugar and alcohol act the same way in the body I've heard.  Maybe people who crave sugar are more likely to use alcohol.

Dr. Christiane Northrup, a fascinating, highly-intelligent, intuitive, educated, experienced, skilled, knowledgeable and wise human who is a doctor, writer and lecturer/teacher on PBS, makes the anecdotal observation that, in her OB/Gyn practice, virtually all the adult children of alcoholics she has as patients are one of two things:  either they are alcoholics themselves OR they are carbohydrate addicts, as in SUGAR.  You are so right that the two are very, very similar as is our body's reaction to them.  A sensitivity to one is probably linked to a sensitivity to the other.
_______________________________________
P.S.  edited to add:  How rude of me!  Sarah, welcome to the BTD forum!!!  


"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Peppermint Twist
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Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from Lola
we are very complex beings......
mind and body should work together
healthy mind in a healthy body, right?

So true.  Balance is a very intricate, delicate thing.  For some of us, when it comes to our biochemistry, we are born "balance-challenged".  What I treasure most about the BTD (and GTD--the D'Adamo diet systems, basically) is that, if followed to the T, it brings even the most challenged of us into that wonderful place of biochemical balance.


"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Paulppaul
Thursday, October 16, 2008, 6:17pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I just think, they eat a lot of traditional food which just isn't that great for them as far as genotype goes but it has traditional significance.  My family is hispanic and our traditional food is green chili. We sit down at the table eating the stuff and saying "Yeah this is GOOOD", and after a while our heads start itching and we get several other reactions from it but, it's something that brings us closer at the dinner table, a tradition we can laugh about.  It's imperfection at it's best .
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Lola
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Os are more prevalent among Hispanics......
and yes, chile rules!!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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JohnW
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This is a little off subject and a little late in the thread but it is a reply to an earlier post.The history books that I have read indicate that the Native Americans did indeed learn scalping from the white Eureopans.If i remember correctly it was from the French,whom the Native Americans thought to be at the time strong fighters and advasaries.The emulation was the sincerest form of flattery.
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honeybee
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I like to try emulate the frenchies too John; for their cultivation of cheeses, good-wines and slow-cooking is legendary besdies scalping . I am an advocate of the Bnon/Gatherer version of the Mediterranean-diet -for my strength!
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Schluggell
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[quote=1269]This is a little off subject and a little late in the thread but it is a reply to an earlier post...If i remember correctly it was from the French,whom the Native Americans thought to be at the time strong fighters and advasaries.../quote]

I was tryiing to figure out a good way to say that too. As all books are the story of the conqueror over succeding time...we will never know the whole truth. And there is no such thing 'Indian Nation' in the singualr anyway...There were even more Indian Nations at that time than there is now. All with different customs & languages & skills.
With the Blood-Type & Genotypes varying even amongst different tribes {albeit probably very little} - I doubt the Science did any thing to realize variations between the different phenotypes.


Herr Schlggell -- Establish a Garden; Cultivate Community. "To see things in the seed, that is genius. He who obtains has little. He who scatters has much. The way to do is to be." -Lao Tzu
Bruno Manser, Ned Lud, August Sabbe, Richard St. Barbe-Baker, Eddie Koiki Mabo, Masanobu Fukuoka
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BTD Forums    Diet and Nutrition    Live Right 4 Your Type  ›  Why were Indians so sensitive to Alcohol?

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