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Adam
Thursday, September 5, 2013, 9:43pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/05/bacteria-slim-treat-obesity-study

Bacteria from slim people could help treat obesity, study finds

Experiments show microbes from thin or fat people's intestines can cause mice to lose or gain weight

Bugs that lurk in the guts of slim people could be turned into radical new therapies to treat obesity, according to a new study.

The claim follows a series of experiments which found that the different populations of bacteria that live in lean and overweight people caused mice to lose or gain weight.

The findings build on a growing body of work that gives the millions of microbes that live in the gut a major role in weight control.

Scientists at Washington University School of Medicine in St Louis said the research paved the way for new therapies that tackle obesity by altering the types and numbers of bugs that make their home in the gut.

Researchers led by Jeffrey Gordon recruited four pairs of women who were twins. One woman in each pair was obese, but the other had a healthy body weight.

From each woman, the researchers collected faeces which contained a wealth of expelled gut microbes. Through a number of tests, the scientists then investigated what happened when they transplanted these into mice bred to have no gut microbes of their own.

The scientists found that mice stayed slim when they received faecal transplants from slim women, but put on much more fat when the samples came from the obese twin. Tests revealed that one type of bug, called Bacteroides, was more plentiful in slim women and protected the animals from putting on too much fat.

In a follow-up experiment, mice with microbes from the slim women shared a cage with mice that had microbes from obese women. Because of the animals' proclivity for coprophagia – that is their habit for eating each others' poo – this caused a mixing of the animals' gut microbes.

After the mice had spent 10 days as cage mates, the obese ones had become more lean. But this only happened if the animals were fed a healthy diet that was high in fibre and low in saturated fats. When the diet was switched to high-fat, low-fibre meals the obese mice remained overweight.

The scientists think that a healthier diet allowed "good" microbes to thrive in the animals' guts, and even reverse obesity in the overweight mice. But a more typical western diet, high in fat and low in fibre, blocked the effect. That would explain why there is no "epidemic of leanness" in the US and elsewhere in the west, the scientists say.

Gordon said the findings, which are published in the journal Science, would steer the development of foods and new therapies that treat obesity by altering the makeup of microbes in the intestines.

"In the future, the nutritional value and the effects of food will involve significant consideration of our microbiota, and developing healthy, nutritious foods will be done from the inside out, not just the outside in," he said.

In an accompanying article, Alan Walker and Julian Parkhill at the Sanger Institute in Cambridge called the work "a step toward the ultimate goal of developing relatively simple mixtures of bacteria for testing as anti-obesity therapeutics".
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Adam
Thursday, September 5, 2013, 9:46pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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And a similar study that is geared more towards Dr. D's reading level:

http://www.pnas.org/content/110/22/9066.full
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Lola
Thursday, September 5, 2013, 11:58pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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why not simply pop deflect and polyflora???  voila!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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shoulderblade
Friday, September 6, 2013, 12:42am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Lola
why not simply pop deflect and polyflora???  voila!


I think they are are taking the long road home.






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Andrea AWsec
Friday, September 6, 2013, 2:26am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Adam you could join the facebook group called Sally Brown for people who are doing fecal transplants for all sorts of things.


MIFHI

"Do not try to satisfy your vanity by teaching a great many things. Awaken people's curiosity. It is enough to open minds; do not overload them." Anatole France

"Healthy people have the least overt symptoms from eating avoid foods." Dr. D'Adamo
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Seraffa
Friday, September 6, 2013, 5:03am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I think it's all revolting   until researchers find out exactly what the microbes' role is in the mucosa. Besides, fat old me will never get paid for gut bacterium transplant or poo refinement for other people.

And - nobody's done a head count of the obese and inflamed to see if they are NONNIES vs. SECRETORS. Supposing nonnies get a microbe transplant......just how long WOULD it last before the next transplant...hmmmm?   Factor in foods that don't go with your bloodtype being popularly eaten, and this "revolutionary idea" for the obese could very well fall flat on its face after implementation.

Doesn't this notion just hint of another popular medical financial exploit: people advertising for young women to sell their eggs to infertile couples?


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Andrea AWsec
Friday, September 6, 2013, 11:12am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Actually Seraffa this is a very positive thing and families donate to one another-- it is not like selling eggs.

Getting over your disgust might take a bit but we already do fecal transplants in hospitals for people with difficult to treat infections--

lets see would you rather have surgery? or a fecal transplant? I'll take the transplant any day--


MIFHI

"Do not try to satisfy your vanity by teaching a great many things. Awaken people's curiosity. It is enough to open minds; do not overload them." Anatole France

"Healthy people have the least overt symptoms from eating avoid foods." Dr. D'Adamo
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Averno
Friday, September 6, 2013, 12:16pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from shoulderblade


I think they are are taking the long road home.



Quoted from Lola
why not simply pop deflect and polyflora???  voila!

Quoted from Andrea
lets see would you rather have surgery? or a fecal transplant? I'll take the transplant any day--


Are we missing something, or is fecal transplant and/or surgery completely unnecessary? Barring  some rare and extreme situation, It seems like it to me. Makes me wonder how many people having these procedures actually need it. Perhaps a cultured flora concoction would suffice in those cases? It seems Dr. D's could further his work's legitimacy here if he were to begin some research on this.





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Lloyd
Friday, September 6, 2013, 1:26pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Averno


Quoted from Lola
why not simply pop deflect and polyflora???  voila!

Quoted from Andrea
lets see would you rather have surgery? or a fecal transplant? I'll take the transplant any day--


Are we missing something, or is fecal transplant and/or surgery completely unnecessary? Barring  some rare and extreme situation, It seems like it to me. Makes me wonder how many people having these procedures actually need it. Perhaps a cultured flora concoction would suffice in those cases? It seems Dr. D's could further his work's legitimacy here if he were to begin some research on this.







Possibly.

Like that the transplants are far more efficacious in severe cases. And that if there is a depletion of some types of bacteria that we are not as aware of it could make a difference.

As usual, if it seems too simple it means there is more that needs to be understood.

Quoted from Wikipedia
The human body carries about 100 trillion microorganisms in its intestines, a number ten times greater than the total number of human cells in the body.[2][3][4][5][6] The metabolic activities performed by these bacteria resemble those of an organ, leading some to liken gut bacteria to a "forgotten" organ.[7] It is estimated that these gut flora have around a hundred times as many genes in aggregate as there are in the human genome.[8]

Bacteria make up most of the flora in the colon[9] and up to 60% of the dry mass of feces.[10] Somewhere between 300[3] and 1000 different species live in the gut,[4] with most estimates at about 500.[5][7][11] However, it is probable that 99% of the bacteria come from about 30 or 40 species.[12] Fungi, protozoa, and Archaea also make up a part of the gut flora, but little is known about their activities.
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Andrea AWsec
Friday, September 6, 2013, 1:42pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Fecal transplants work-- and if I had severe Cdiff or another bowel disorder I would not discount it so quickly.


People need to get past the yuck factor. Delivering healthy microbes into the cecum and the large intestines is a good thing. A quick 10 minutes procedure with healthy feces is all it takes during a colonoscopy.


Taking polyflora is not the cure all for this, people have severe disease and need relief.




MIFHI

"Do not try to satisfy your vanity by teaching a great many things. Awaken people's curiosity. It is enough to open minds; do not overload them." Anatole France

"Healthy people have the least overt symptoms from eating avoid foods." Dr. D'Adamo
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Seraffa
Friday, September 6, 2013, 5:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Lloyd


Possibly.

Like that the transplants are far more efficacious in severe cases. And that if there is a depletion of some types of bacteria that we are not as aware of it could make a difference.

As usual, if it seems too simple it means there is more that needs to be understood.



Because their guts have already been compromised far too much from wrong eating and chronic illness.



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Averno
Friday, September 6, 2013, 8:10pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Wikipedia

The human body carries about 100 trillion microorganisms in its intestines, a number ten times greater than the total number of human cells in the body.[2][3][4][5][6] The metabolic activities performed by these bacteria resemble those of an organ, leading some to liken gut bacteria to a "forgotten" organ.[7] It is estimated that these gut flora have around a hundred times as many genes in aggregate as there are in the human genome.[8]

Bacteria make up most of the flora in the colon[9] and up to 60% of the dry mass of feces.[10] Somewhere between 300[3] and 1000 different species live in the gut,[4] with most estimates at about 500.[5][7][11] However, it is probable that 99% of the bacteria come from about 30 or 40 species.[12] Fungi, protozoa, and Archaea also make up a part of the gut flora, but little is known about their activities.



Whoa... I stand corrected     This is absolutely amazing! The forgotten organ, or the forgotten life force?


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Seraffa
Saturday, September 7, 2013, 3:58am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Averno
Quoted from Wikipedia

The human body carries about 100 trillion microorganisms in its intestines, a number ten times greater than the total number of human cells in the body.[2][3][4][5][6] The metabolic activities performed by these bacteria resemble those of an organ, leading some to liken gut bacteria to a "forgotten" organ.[7] It is estimated that these gut flora have around a hundred times as many genes in aggregate as there are in the human genome.[8]

Bacteria make up most of the flora in the colon[9] and up to 60% of the dry mass of feces.[10] Somewhere between 300[3] and 1000 different species live in the gut,[4] with most estimates at about 500.[5][7][11] However, it is probable that 99% of the bacteria come from about 30 or 40 species.[12] Fungi, protozoa, and Archaea also make up a part of the gut flora, but little is known about their activities.



Whoa... I stand corrected     This is absolutely amazing! The forgotten organ, or the forgotten life force?




Fecal transplant = organ transplant?
Black market time  
Averno you and I could make up some pretty wild stuff about this.....
Lemme get my donor card.....


INFJ/ENFJ wings 3+4, Numerology: 1
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yaeli
Saturday, September 7, 2013, 4:42am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Averno
Whoa... I stand corrected     This is absolutely amazing! The forgotten organ, or the forgotten life force?
The too long ignored neighbors & partners... Battalions, too...




Revision History (1 edits)
yaeli  -  Saturday, September 7, 2013, 5:00am
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shoulderblade
Tuesday, September 10, 2013, 6:15pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Averno

Are we missing something, or is fecal transplant and/or surgery completely unnecessary? Barring  some rare and extreme situation, It seems like it to me. Makes me wonder how many people having these procedures actually need it. Perhaps a cultured flora concoction would suffice in those cases? It seems Dr. D's could further his work's legitimacy here if he were to begin some research on this.


This is a quote from a BBC article on the issue.

Quoted from BBC article
A human obesity treatment is unlikely to use transplants of thousands of species of bacteria from lean people's guts as it carries the risk of also transferring infectious diseases.

Instead a search for the exact mix of bacteria which benefit weight - and the right foods to promote their growth - is more likely.


I have no idea what the risk levels would be on that but considering that the procedure would be stop gap at best may prevent it from becoming a standard therapeutic option. Realistically it is a systemic problem which could only be addressed in part by such intervention.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23970219









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ruthiegirl
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A fecal transplant is basically making an enema out of another person's diluted poop. Right now it's only being done for severe cases, and only with carefully screened donors. I read about one case where the person was in desperate need, the donor was found and screened and approved (the man's cousin, IIRC) but the doctors were dragging their feet about actually doing the procedure. So the man bought a disposable enema and did it at home.

Of course there are some risks involved- it's possible that if you did a fecal transplant from a "sick" or "obese" person into a "healthy" person, the healthy person would get sick or fat. That's probably why, right now, it's only being done on people so sick already that there's nothing to lose. It's also possible that, when done to a healthy person, it would have little to no effect. Perhaps it's only the "severe lack of normal gut flora" that allows the fecal transplant to "stick" in a very sick person. I don't think it's been studied yet.

I know there's some "ick factor" here, but the way I see it, you're putting new poop into the place where poop belongs. It's not like you're EATING poop- now THAT would be disgusting!


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  13yo B+ Jack


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Averno
Tuesday, September 10, 2013, 7:09pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from shoulderblade

I have no idea what the risk levels would be on that but considering that the procedure would be stop gap at best may prevent it from becoming a standard therapeutic option. Realistically it is a systemic problem which could only be addressed in part by such intervention.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23970219



Systemic as it applies to food and behaviour, or as it applies to other therapies and medical conditions?

As a side note, It's almost amusing the lengths people will go to avoid the truth about their obesity. I was one of them. As of this morning down 60 lbs since eating right, not less. Sadly, my neighbor has just started Weight Watchers for the 3rd time.



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shoulderblade
Tuesday, September 10, 2013, 7:51pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Averno


Systemic as it applies to food and behaviour, or as it applies to other therapies and medical conditions?

As a side note, It's almost amusing the lengths people will go to avoid the truth about their obesity. I was one of them. As of this morning down 60 lbs since eating right, not less. Sadly, my neighbor has just started Weight Watchers for the 3rd time.


I was thinking other therapies actually but it would include food, behaviour and other medical conditions as well. A transplant would be a step in the right direction but ultimately useless in the long haul unless other changes were also implemented.

Congratulations on the weight loss by the way. People who can 'get it done right' are both an inspiration to others and weight loss experts in the sense that 'they have been there'.





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Averno
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Quoted from shoulderblade


Congratulations on the weight loss by the way. People who can 'get it done right' are both an inspiration to others and weight loss experts in the sense that 'they have been there'.


Thank you, Shoulderblade. Truth be told, I'm embarrassed by my past acceptance of such faulty logic as to believe that in doing nothing, things would magically be fixed. My reward for getting it done right is experienced now every minute of every day, and I selfishly protect that against any threat to my will. That is the real magic.






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Goldie
Wednesday, September 11, 2013, 11:48am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I could go down all the differences... the one I choose to see here:   Obese People Might Not Be At Fault.    Just maybe it is their bodies that are revolting by not co-operating and keeping more of the buggers that would eliminate food accumulation.

We look at obese people with such disgust, and question their sanity, their behavior and their state of mind and yet if it where possible to just change the intestinal content, then why not package that in pills...   Heck, I have eaten many on pill I had no idea of what was in it.

Bring this on... gross as it might be, I would trade my fat body in two minutes!!!  I have such a big belly (again) I look like a woman 8 month pregnant. If it where a simple ...... I would by a truck load in pill form .. That which I don't see is OK by me.   I am after all a see food eater!    


Being here is invaluable, but not enough. We need ALL the Doctors. I needed them for a very small cancer spot-I could never feel!!! Please do your mammograms! Doing so saved me from cancer later on. I am grateful! Thanks for learning from my experience! I was lucky! I wish the same for YOU!
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shoulderblade
Thursday, September 12, 2013, 12:59am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Goldie


We look at obese people with such disgust, and question their sanity, their behavior and their state of mind and yet if it where possible to just change the intestinal content, then why not package that in pills...   Heck, I have eaten many on pill I had no idea of what was in it.

Bring this on... gross as it might be, I would trade my fat body in two minutes!!!  I have such a big belly (again) I look like a woman 8 month pregnant. If it where a simple ...... I would by a truck load in pill form .. That which I don't see is OK by me.   I am after all a see food eater!    


My read on this is that the actual surgical exchange of intestinal material is both risky and speculative at this point. The oral option (probiotics) would be much slower moving and still pretty questionable as to what results might be expected.

It looks to me like there is a lot of work to be done here before any sort of predictable outcomes could be established. If there is any such thing as 'glutton microbes' significant results may not be that far off.







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Amazone I.
Thursday, September 12, 2013, 6:17am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I don't think this hits the true issues nor points... I am d'accord with the stress
and hormonal imbalance by adrenal fatigue and the HTA- axis entre-autre... coz often this results into cushing-syndrome...and yep this is truly observed in several of my patients... almost all bt A's....

and another point here...often NT's knit their stories *how something should be...or behave or whatever...* ... infact we mustn't believe all what so called *scientists* laber out into the world ...
We need to use our own power and capacities...and not thinking that we might learn to dance by only watching.....


MIfHI K-174
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