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Too much protein  This thread currently has 8,542 views. Print Print Thread
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Laura P
Tuesday, January 31, 2006, 11:33pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Kyosha Nim
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As you all know, I eat a lot of protien.  I have tried to cut down, but when I do after a few days I just start feeling weak and sick.  After reading the allergy book I am wondering if all of the protien is what is aggrevating my stomach all the time.

I crave protien all of the time, often like people with allergies to a certain food, crave that food, plus maybe the weak and sick feeling is detox

What do you all think?  Am I just pulling straws or could it be a possibility.  If this is a problem what do I do to cut down, I just don't seem to be able to



If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
Art Hoppe


Sometimes you don't know how great life is until you lose what you didn't know you had

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Kristin  -  Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 1:30am
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Cheryl_O_Blogger
Tuesday, January 31, 2006, 11:42pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
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Quoted Text
Don't go beyond your blood type's nutritional capabilities: If you are a type A and over consume animal products, the malabsorption that results from the incomplete breakdown of animal protein will serve as a very tempting source of amino acids for the intestinal bacteria. In gratitude for this free meal they will synthesize huge amounts of polyamines. If you are type O, watch the grain lectins; they will increase the production of polyamines by the cells of the intestines, pancreas and liver.



It's most likely polyamine toxicity.

Ways to overcome:

Quoted Text
How to minimize internal polyamine production:

Use natural food sources that inhibit ornithene de-carboxlase (ODC) the enzyme required for their synthesis:



Foods than inhibit ODC include:

· Walnuts
· Curcumin (found in tumeric)
· Green tea
· Pomegranites
· Guava
· Broccoli leaves
· Plantain
· Black currant fruit
· Bilberry
· Elderberry
· Grapes
· Onion
· Garlic
· Dill
· Tarragon
· Chives

A handful of walnuts thrown into a salad twice daily does a pretty decent job of inhibiting excess ODC activity.




Other ideas:


Use natural, food derived carotenoids Unlike synthetic beta carotene, food derived carotenoids still look promising as anti-cancer agents. Two common carotenoids found in many yellow and red vegetables, xanthophylls and canthaxanthin, reduce polyamine levels in the oral cavity and GI tract.

Watch the Vitamin E which seems to upregulate polyamine metabolism, probably by its direct effects on ODC. Interestingly, the ability of vitamin E to increase levels of polyamines may account for its more positive effects in Alzheimer's disease. Much of the nerve damage in Alzheimer's results from oxidative stress, or the generation of free-radicals in the brain. Vitamin E may help reverse this effect by raising brain polyamine levels to allow the nerve cells to survive the neurodegenerative process.

Be wary of  'liver protective' herbs: Many herbs known for their protective effect on the liver, such as Milk Thistle or Schizandra, are in fact bioactive because they raise polyamines in the organ. In a case of liver disease , their might be rationale, in a malignancy or cancer prevention program, they are not.

Avoid supplemental doses of the amino acids ornithine, cysteine and methionine. Ornithine and methionine are precursors of polyamines. Ornithine is the direct precursor to putrescine; methionine and cysteine are intermediates in the synthesis of polyamines. Several supplement studies have shown these amino acids promote growth hormone and insulin, perhaps through increased polyamine secretion. Naturopaths have known for many years that it was unwise to supplement cancer patients with methionine. One study even went so far as to suggest that the relatively low methionine levels in some phytochemicals such as soy, which may limit the synthesis of polyamines necessary for tumor growth In rats treated for twelve weeks with the chemical carcinogen azoxymethane (AOM), the administration of the methionine-supplemented diet stimulated the turnover rate of intestinal cells, indicating enhanced cell proliferation. Furthermore, a 2-fold increase in the number of tumors was observed in the colon. These effects were accompanied by the increased formation of the polyamines spermidine and spermine. The experimental data suggests that methionine promotes intestinal carcinogenesis.

Insure adequate levels of dietary zinc Dietary zinc deficiency caused significantly higher plasma levels of the polyamines spermidine and spermine than in controls with adequate zinc levels. Conversely, copper, a nutrient often inimical to zinc, in high concentrations, has been shown to increase the levels of polyamines.  





That and much more info on polyamine toxicity here:

http://www.dadamo.com/knowbase/physiology/physiology5.htm


Blogger Cheryl
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"There is nothing noble in being superior to some other man.  True nobility is being superior to your former self."  Anonymous quote
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Lola
Tuesday, January 31, 2006, 11:43pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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try the complete protein combos compliant for your type.......

you must have certain grains, beans, legumes, on your compliant A nonnie list, right?

or am I being totally radical?? )


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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Laura P
Tuesday, January 31, 2006, 11:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Kyosha Nim
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yes of course, there are loads, all of which coinsidentally I used to love when I was a vegetarian, I just have to get over my fear of starches- this I don't know how to do



If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
Art Hoppe


Sometimes you don't know how great life is until you lose what you didn't know you had
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Cheryl_O_Blogger
Tuesday, January 31, 2006, 11:48pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
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As I recall there are limited foods that you can tolerate.  It might help if you show what you eat in a typical day, maybe list A beneficials that you just cannot tolerate, as well as foods you know you can eat.  I know you've probably posted this in various places, but someone might be able to help you with the puzzle if all the info is in one place.  It's difficult for me as an O, since I'm not so familiar with A foods.


Blogger Cheryl
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"There is nothing noble in being superior to some other man.  True nobility is being superior to your former self."  Anonymous quote
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Laura P
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 12:11am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Kyosha Nim
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ok this is the list of A beneficials I commonally eat, my diet is avoid free and probably 80-90% beneficial
Turkey
Salmon
Snapper
Trout
Perch
Cod

other protiens I eat, lots of other type fish, Chicken, eggs, and right now I am trying to add yogurt and cottage cheese

walnut
peanut butter
pumpkin seed butter

also eat tahini and hempseed butter

Beet Greens
Green Beans
Broccoli
Carrot
Celery
Dandelino
Fennel
Ginger
Kale
Romaine Lettuce
Rappini
Spinach
Swiss Chard
Escarole

Eat lots of other neutral veggies

Fruits
Blueberry
Grapefruit
Cranberry
Pineapple
Plum
Fig when in season
Cherry when in season
Blackberry when in season
lemon

Right now most of my fruit consumption is meyer lemon, apple and grapefruit and strawberries and blueberries

Fats
Olive oil
Avocado


My diet is probably 70% Veggies, 20% Protien, 5% fruit and 5% added fats like olive oil and avocado

I eat six small meals all consisting of a protien, and either fruit or veggie or both

Each meal has between 1-3 oz of protien



If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
Art Hoppe


Sometimes you don't know how great life is until you lose what you didn't know you had

Revision History (2 edits)
Kristin  -  Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 1:02am
Kristin  -  Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 12:11am
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Don
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 12:45am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh-, MN
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This PowerPoint presentation may give you some additional things to think about: http://www.carbonbased.com/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?cid=3&lid=14

Particularly take note of the section starting at page 19 through about page 33, and page 41.


Sorry about the incorrect link that was previously in this post


FIFHI; ISTP;
Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons

Revision History (1 edits)
Kristin  -  Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 1:16am
corrected link
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Lola
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 1:02am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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could you check the link again Don, pls? )

it takes me to a thread........


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Don
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 1:16am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh-, MN
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Thanks Lola, I fixed it.


FIFHI; ISTP;
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Laura P
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 1:30am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Kyosha Nim
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So Don are you saying I have heavy metal toxity?  What would I do to cure this



If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
Art Hoppe


Sometimes you don't know how great life is until you lose what you didn't know you had
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KimonoKat
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 1:33am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

38% HUNTER
Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from lkpetrolino
So Don are you saying I have heavy metal toxity?  What would I do to cure this


I know there's a post on mercury toxity somewhere!  John McDonnell (sp?) posted about it within the last two days I think!  It's about how B12 deficiency mimics mercury poisoning/toxcity.



Knowledge is power.  SWAMI gives you the diet that will unlock the key to better health, and it's all based on your unique individuality.
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Don
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 1:35am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh-, MN
Sam Dan
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No, I am saying there is a possibility of some sort of toxicity, not necessarily heavy metals. I know you can't afford the testing, but that is probably the only way to find out.

I sent in my urine and blood samples for this testing 2 weeks ago and am expecting the results anytime in the next 2 weeks. I am anxious to see if it identifies anything that could be the cause of my troubles.


FIFHI; ISTP;
Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons
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Laura P
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 2:10am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Kyosha Nim
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Do you mind pming me to tell me how much it cost



If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
Art Hoppe


Sometimes you don't know how great life is until you lose what you didn't know you had
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Lola
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 2:13am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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thanks Don! )
interesting info......


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Don
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 2:31am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh-, MN
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This is where I bought the Foundation Wellness Profile test kit: http://www.jigsawhealth.com/product.aspx?pID=1072
Plus I had to go to the doctor to get the test requisition forms signed and will have to get the results from the doctor, which I am hoping I will be able to do without paying for a doctor's visit.

A cheaper route is to buy the Optimal Wellness Profile, which includes the same tests as above, from this source: http://www.directlabs.com/testtypes.php#optimal
This offering from Direct Labs has changed since I bought my test kit about 4 weeks ago. They have added the CellMate Report and raised the price slightly. I am not sure that the CellMate Report that comes with this profile is the same report as the test kit I got from JigsawHealth. If you are interested I will call them tomorrow and find out.

I wanted the complete analysis (see the sample available on the JigsawHealth webpage) so when I bought the test I purchased  it from JigsawHealth, because Direct Labs didn't include the CellMate Report at that time.


FIFHI; ISTP;
Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons
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Laura P
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 2:36am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Kyosha Nim
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Geez........I would love to get that done but thats alot of mula, I'll be interested to know how yoour reports look though and if you felt they were comprehensive, I need to get my sereotyping done first, maybe I'm just an A2 and that is my issue



If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
Art Hoppe


Sometimes you don't know how great life is until you lose what you didn't know you had
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Don
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 2:40am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh-, MN
Sam Dan
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I started a thread on this topic about 2 months ago. It appears to be gone now.

If you are really considering this type of testing you might want to read some more of the material at the following sites:
http://www.carbonbased.com/modules/mydownloads/ This is the company that does the analysis and reporting
http://www.metametrix.com/ This is the company that does the actual lab work for 2 of the tests. Lab Corp does the standard comprehensive blood analysis.


FIFHI; ISTP;
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Don
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 2:57am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh-, MN
Sam Dan
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I agree it is not cheap, but I am getting tired of guessing at what the problem is, trying different things, and waiting to see if I will get any results. All that chews up time, my life, and as they say time is money.

I hope the results of this testing will give me some knowledge and direction to help resolve the mystery of my fatigue problem. I should know soon.


FIFHI; ISTP;
Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons
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Carol the Dabbler
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 3:51am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Gluten-Free Raw-Food Vegan
Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from lkpetrolino

Right now most of my fruit consumption is meyer lemon, apple and grapefruit and strawberries and blueberries

My diet is probably 70% Veggies, 20% Protien, 5% fruit and 5% added fats like olive oil and avocado


One small observation:  Meyer lemons are generally assumed to be a cross between a lemon and an orange.  You might try switching to a variety of true lemon, such as Eureka or Lisbon (but not Ponderosa, which is a citron cross), and see if that helps a little.  (What you want is a "lemon-shaped" lemon, rather than a roundish one.)


Carol

A+ nonnie married to an A+ secretor
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Laura P
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 4:13am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Kyosha Nim
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oh my gosh I had no idea, thank you Carol, I love them so much, Carol, what does your diet look like, I'm trying to remember how I ate when I was a vegetarian and I just can't



If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
Art Hoppe


Sometimes you don't know how great life is until you lose what you didn't know you had
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Carol the Dabbler
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 4:37am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Gluten-Free Raw-Food Vegan
Kyosha Nim
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Citrus fruits are marketed according to what they look and taste like.  A Meyer looks and tastes more like a lemon than anything else, so it's marketed as a lemon, even though its genes are probably mixed.  Same goes for a lot of "tangerines," by the way, so beware!

Here's what I ate today:

First thing (call it breakfast if you like):  One whole grapefruit (minus the section membranes).

Later (lunch?):  A few slices of homemade spelt bread with egg salad (more often with almond butter).  In lieu of mayonnaise, I experimented today with 2 tsp lemon juice, 1 tsp olive oil, 1/4 tsp lecithin, and 1/8 tsp salt -- chopped in the egg and added some minced celery.  Pretty good, but I'm still in search of the perfect mayonnaise stand-in.

Supper:  Collard greens sauteed in a dab of olive oil with a pinch of asafetida, black-eyed peas, and mashed sweet potato.

Bedtime:  Goat yogurt with a mashed banana.


Carol

A+ nonnie married to an A+ secretor
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Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 11:21am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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I'm not an expert on the A diet but I'm having trouble seeing what the actual problem here is.

Your intake as you have described it looks fine and I'm sure there are a few of us here who wished they could be as dedicated to "no avoids" and high beneficail compliancy.

To that end, the question in my mind comes back to the nature of your digestive problems. What sort of problems do you get?. I'm assuming here that your blood work is fine and there are no excessive cholesterol problems (meat based for A's usually) and if that's the case then could it simply be a case of very low intestinal alkaline phosphitase (good ol IAP - which is characteristically low in A's)

In the Live Right Book there is a topic in the A section called "eat right for strength and balance ( page 181). At the bottom of the page it states:

"Smaller more frequent meals will counteract digestive problems caused by low stomach acid (you already do this so let's assume the protein amount in each meal is OK). Don't eat when you're nervous or because you're nervous. Your stomach initiates the digestive process with a combination of digestive secretions and the muscular contractions that mix food with them. When you have low levels of digestive secretions, foods tend to stay in the stomach longer. In addition, be attentive to food combining. You'll digest and metabolise foods more efficiently if you avoid eating starches and proteins at the same meal. The use of digestive bitters 30 minutes prior to a meal can also help rev up your digestion."

For all I know you "may" be eating too much protein but it just doesn't sound like it (especially if you feel weak when you don't and especially if you are fairly active). It may simply be that the protein isn't being digested fast enough and so taking a few steps to "rev up your digestion" as Dr D. puts it may be the answer. He mentions digestive bitters but off the top of my head I can't think of any other.

As an aside, the book also mentions to limit turkey and chicken to 2-3 times per week, and to derive your primary protein from soy products and seafood. I can't remember off hand but I don't think there were many soy products in your list.

Anyway, I hope this helps in some way.

Aaron.


The only possessions which do not possess us are those which can be shared by all.

It also pays to wear a christmas hat.



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Laura P
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 2:25pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Kyosha Nim
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Thanks Aaron it does.  My protien intake is probably 80-90% fish, I have been wanting to try to add some soy, but have been nervous because of the large numbers of nonnies that have trouble with it.  I used to love tempeh though so I'm going to try that.  I have UC which causes most of my issues, I think BTD as done so much to heal me, and I feel like I have sort of plateaued so I am searching.  I do use digestive bitters and they help alot.  

I think it is just difficult for me because my diet is so different than most A's and sometimes I wonder if I am doing it completely wrong



If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
Art Hoppe


Sometimes you don't know how great life is until you lose what you didn't know you had
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resting
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 3:37pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

probable non-sec
Sam Dan
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gosh Laura,

Cheryl's original comments about proteins and polyamines seems right ... except a few thing .... like all other nutrients, the use of amino acids is seasonally cyclical ... what seems to be very high for the spring and summer months is highly curtailed and selective for fall and especially for winter.  So polyamine production ... simply because of excess protein is ripe for the winter months (which we are in).  These same aminos ... with their putresine, etc... will be much less an issue in the spring-summer with this putresine spurring growth.  

It might help you to see that food selection varies appreciably seasonally and we can be in full BTD-compliance yet be totally out-of-sync seasonally ... eg pineapples in mid-January may be fine in Australia - here they are inappropriate.  All classes of foodstuffs fit into such variation.  

John


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

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Victoria
Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 5:51pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Laura,
I think you are forgetting something.

You are a heavy runner, if I remember correctly.  The level of exercise that you do is going to burn a lot of calories, and require more protein than for most A's who might take a more gentle approach to exercise.



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