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Connect
Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 5:28pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
Posts: 743
Laura:  Very interesting.  Can't wait for part 2.

Cybertooth:  I am quite fit, whereas, she is not fit remotely.  Takes horrible care of herself.  I agree that everyone should let everyone live the way they see fit, but she is trying to start taking better care of herself and is seeking my advice.  Now, I have advice aplenty to give, but she's stuck in the old thought pattern of believing that fat makes you fat.  I start talking Omega 3s, etc...and she just goes blank.  So I tried to tell her in lay terms, but I guess people don't want to really hear what they have to do.  

They want an easy way out.  Either way, I think maybe the best path is to explain to her that the body needs fat to work.  I just need to understand that concept a bit better.  (Hoping Laura can further help me here!!)  Don't we actually need fat to burn carbs, etc?


INFJ
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CybrtoothTigress
Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 5:37pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

61% Whorless Warrior
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I still like the "feel, felt... found" approach.  That was the only way I could get through to my mother in law.  She liked to ridicule me for my choices.

She has to WANT change.  Want it so bad she's willing to work for it.  I also believe people have been bombarded with so much crappy information, it may seem impossible that there really is something that works.

Does she recognize the difference between the two of you?  Does she see herself as healthy?  Does she see you as fit?


It is what it is so I'm dealing with it.
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pinemeadows
Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 5:41pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Henriette_Bsec
true! : I used to eat about 20-30 grams of fat pr day- did I loose weight ?
NO I just felt awfull - it was mainly safflor and sunflower oil ( BAD for B´s)

Today I get around 50-75 grams of fat-(my eggs, milk etc included) BUT no wrong fats for a B!   I feel good and I have started to loose weight! If I eat low fat today I get VERY hungry, moody and after a few days a real BAD headache !


It's sad that people think they have to do the fat gram counting thing, or the carb counting thing, or the protein counting thing.....  

I do not have the time nor the motivation to count fat grams or anything else anymore.  I have been on every diet there is (except JC) without long-term success....have been dieting since I was in 6th grade....now my age is an unlisted number so that should tell ya something!  Believe it or not, I was NEVER fat...just a few pounds overweight.  My entire life was a succession of diets.

Today, I am happily following BTD, and am a t-tapper.   Last week, lost 11.25 inches, and 5 pounds.  I ate plenty, and I also ate plenty of good-for-me fat in the form of olive oil with a little ghee now and then.

It's all about making a decision.
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Connect
Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 5:54pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
Posts: 743
Quoted from vjmiyagi
I still like the "feel, felt... found" approach.  That was the only way I could get through to my mother in law.  She liked to ridicule me for my choices.

She has to WANT change.  Want it so bad she's willing to work for it.  I also believe people have been bombarded with so much crappy information, it may seem impossible that there really is something that works.

Does she recognize the difference between the two of you?  Does she see herself as healthy?  Does she see you as fit?


Well, it's one of those things where she really just wants to be thin.  Yet, she drinks daily and doesn't really exercise.  She's trying to start exercising, but she refuses to budge on the drinking.  To me, it's sort of silly to work on being healthy when you drink daily.  So, I guess I just kind of don't want to expend much energy to be honest.  I know that sounds bad, but it sometimes gets a bit much when someone seeks advice and then doesn't even attempt to follow it.


INFJ
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Red Meat Eater
Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 5:57pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
Posts: 806
I'd focus on yourself and forget trying to change other people.  


Kombu noodles are DELICIOUS (and wheat-free)
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CybrtoothTigress
Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 6:02pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Perhaps when she ridicules you for your fat intake you may just have to ask her how it's working for her.  You may have to agree to disagree to keep the peace.


It is what it is so I'm dealing with it.
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Don
Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 6:33pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Rh-, MN
Sam Dan
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Or if she is a close friend maybe just ask her to temporarily forget about she thinks about nutrition and trust you and give the BTD a fair try for 1-3 months.


FIFHI; ISTP;
Started BTD 3/2002, with 2 O- secretor teenage sons
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apositive
Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 6:45pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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Quoted from connect14
So, I guess I just kind of don't want to expend much energy to be honest.  I know that sounds bad, but it sometimes gets a bit much when someone seeks advice and then doesn't even attempt to follow it.


No, connect14, it doesn't sound bad at all.  Lots of people rant about wanting to do this and wanting to change that but somehow don't take even minor steps to do it (much less sustain them).  IMHO (using myself as a measure), there is some kind of emotion stake in what is going on and, as others have said, until someone is REALLY ready to change, it won't happen.  There is nothing you can do.  So, answer questions, offer advise when asked, and hopefully develop and immunity to the rants about fat.  


INTJ
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Connect
Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 7:08pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
Posts: 743
Quoted from apositive


No, connect14, it doesn't sound bad at all.  Lots of people rant about wanting to do this and wanting to change that but somehow don't take even minor steps to do it (much less sustain them).  IMHO (using myself as a measure), there is some kind of emotion stake in what is going on and, as others have said, until someone is REALLY ready to change, it won't happen.  There is nothing you can do.  So, answer questions, offer advise when asked, and hopefully develop and immunity to the rants about fat.  


Thanks apositive.  That's a good bit of advice.  I think learning the most we can about nutrition helps us in cases when people attack or ridicule.  Not that we ever have to defend our choices, but knowledge and wisdom are, indeed, power.


INFJ

Revision History (1 edits)
connect14  -  Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 7:09pm
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type_O
Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 7:17pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from connect14
"... I was trying to explain to her the difference between fats and also explaining that the body needs fat.  She just kept saying that she believed a "low fat" diet needed to be 20g of fat or less per day.  I tried explaining to her that I don't think in terms of "grams".  ....  I explained that my fats were olive oil, nuts, avocado and ghee for the most part.  Still wasn't getting it....

..How can I explain this to her in a way she might get?"

and then KOAHIATAMADL  wrote:  "and what do i do - i leave her to it as she does with me.  

she knows her health is going to get worse, she is aware of my dietary choices which would also apply to her and the BTD as i have explained it all - once.  she knows where to find the books on the book shelf if she wants to have a look and she knows i'd gladly give her more information but at the moment she is not ready to take on board the message.

food is such an emotionally charged subject for so many people - in my experience it is best to let people get on with it.  just because you have seen the light it does not mean others will any time soon, no matter how much you care about them and want to help. "



Hi connect14,

People can be frustrating, especially when you are actually trying to help them.  Which leaves basically two choices, one you can develop a law of the jungle attitude and simply take care of  yourself or two you can make the effort to keep your own cool, and try to give the other person at least some progress towards improving their situation.  

Which philosophy is wisest is debatable for sure.  However if  you decide you’d like to help open your  room-mates eyes, I’d start with showing her the label on any commercial food product where it lists fat types.  Ask her if she is aware that some of the fats listed there are different and worse for a person, like trans fats and saturated fats, etc..  I think once she sees that there is more to this fat thing, from an official source like the food label she’ll in time become more open  minded.  I’d end the lesson there after mentioning that  you only eat the healthy type of fats and that it makes life easier because you don’t have to be such a food accountant.  One more thing, she’s tied up her ego in her argument position that the gram thing is a sacred thing.  Therefore it’s just going to make her dig in her heels to talk about grams.  Just play up the virtues of having one less thing to worry about if you just eat the healthy kinds of fats.  (Someday if she really converts you two can figure out your proper fat ratios from all of the types of fats and their conditions, ie. not rancid.)

On the other hand, I’ve really noticed that people are creatures of habit.  Therefore the problem with winning an argument is, that 20 minutes later and even though you were irrefutable, people tend to go back to the beliefs they had previously.  This occurs out of habit, comfort with the familiar from a psychological point of view  and the trait of laziness which we all have to some degree.  

I hope you can help your room-mate and keep your own stress levels from rising.  Best of luck,  type_o.
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MargoH
Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 7:24pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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The number of people I know who have severly reduced /no fat in their diets and surgeons have then relieved them of their gall bladders is eye opening!

Encourage her to educate herself on what her gall bladder needs!
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Laura P
Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 7:33pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Kyosha Nim
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Wow Margo, that is amazing, not surprising but amazing



If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
Art Hoppe


Sometimes you don't know how great life is until you lose what you didn't know you had
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Connect
Wednesday, January 25, 2006, 7:40pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
Posts: 743
Thanks for everyone's replies.
Again, I have no desire to "win" an argument.  Just want to be knowledgable when I speak about BTD and nutrition in general.  I believe the best thing we can do is set positive examples.  


INFJ
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Lola
Thursday, January 26, 2006, 1:28am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Laura,
before you begin part II, would you name, or list all the omegas 3s and EFAs? )
what about omega 6s?
isn t a combination of both needed?
also the various pro inflammatory carbs?
that would be a great reminder......
very nice report!!

think of doing a blog on this, people would appreciate!
education is key!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Laura P
Thursday, January 26, 2006, 1:47am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Kyosha Nim
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Good idea Lola, ok guys I'll but it together tonight and have a 'fat' blog ready for you all tommorrow



If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
Art Hoppe


Sometimes you don't know how great life is until you lose what you didn't know you had
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Lola
Thursday, January 26, 2006, 1:51am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

GT1; L (a-b-); (se); PROP-T; NN
Sa Bon Nim
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yummy!!!! lol


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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resting
Thursday, January 26, 2006, 2:15am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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Hi Laura,

like many others, I too am very interested in part II ... but be warned because what you said in part I seems right out of Barry Sears and I take huge exception to that line of reasoning.  If you wish to increase thermogenesis now is a great time ... Spring - is for other approaches!  In winter, as Laura says: increase omega-3's (fish oils) ... this helps to liquefy marbleized (white) fat.  Add about 2g of L-carnitine and @2g of calcium pyruvate; [option: @2g of acetyl-L-carnitine can be added]  The sweat will be just-a-pouring off you in bed and during the daytime you extremities will be warm.  In winter my feet would be blue from poor circulation ... after the regime above, my feet were actually warm to the touch even in an apartment near 50F.

John


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

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Laura P
Thursday, January 26, 2006, 2:27am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Kyosha Nim
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aggghhhhhhh..........John, don't compare me to Barry Sears, please.  That was just my Omega 3 speech, wait until I get to my saturated speech



If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
Art Hoppe


Sometimes you don't know how great life is until you lose what you didn't know you had
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resting
Thursday, January 26, 2006, 2:37am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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can't wait!

hang in there,

John


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

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autumn
Thursday, January 26, 2006, 2:40am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I just went to dr. yesterday for my annual and we had our regular fight over butter  She admitted that the body needed fat -- to keep organs healthy and skin supple and for brain function.  She encourages her patients to use olive oil (which I already use alot).

(Unfortunately, she won't budge on butter... and she almost had a heart attack when I suggested substituting ghee for butter !)


Gatherer
-INTJ-
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san j
Thursday, January 26, 2006, 3:12am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Nomadess
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Quoted from admin
When Ornish got the fat content of his subjects down to very low levels, there were suicides by several of the elderly subjects.


Note: I've recently read a piece in a mainstream magazine (December or January issue)(It was at a client's house) citing a study linking LOW cholesterol with suicide.  Autopsies of a large sample of suicides (alas: No BT stats) showed very low cholesterol in most.

Sorry I can't give you the magazine at the moment.  Google for it: It'll turn up...


D'Adamo proponent since 1997
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Laura P
Thursday, January 26, 2006, 4:52am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from npgillis
I just went to dr. yesterday for my annual and we had our regular fight over butter  She admitted that the body needed fat -- to keep organs healthy and skin supple and for brain function.  She encourages her patients to use olive oil (which I already use alot).

(Unfortunately, she won't budge on butter... and she almost had a heart attack when I suggested substituting ghee for butter !)


Butter is exceptionally hight in fat soluble vitamin A, D, K and E  as well as their naturally occurring cofactors that are needed to provide max benefit.  It has been found to protect joints from calcification (and teeth too I would guess Edna) and protect against hardening of arteries and cataracts.  It has antifungal and anti tumor properties. CLA, which has anticancer properties and some (disputed) studies have shown it to increase muscle mass and decrease fat.  Natural Lecithin which assistas in proper assimilation of cholesterol and other fat




If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
Art Hoppe


Sometimes you don't know how great life is until you lose what you didn't know you had
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Henriette Bsec
Thursday, January 26, 2006, 10:48am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from pinemeadows


It's sad that people think they have to do the fat gram counting thing, or the carb counting thing, or the protein counting thing.....  

I do not have the time nor the motivation to count fat grams or anything else


I don´t count anything - but from my PRE BTD days I knew how much I used to get- so I sat dawn and did a calculation one week and found out how much- not that I cared if it was 60 grams or 600 grams- I just feel good!.

Omega 6-Lola- If I recall right- most westerners get far too much omega 6 - It need to be balanced with the omega 3 !



ENFP -naturalist, visual/spatial and musical/verbal/chatty Dane- Mother to DD Emma age 19,
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Thursday, January 26, 2006, 11:53am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sam Dan
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Hi Henriette,

such a way of viewing the ratio of omega-6 and omega-3 is a common understanding these days.  But recent studies have pointed to the notion that the omega-6 EFA's are mainly for the seasons spring & summer AND tropical climates .... with autumn the plant-based omega-3's begin and fish oils (heavy with EPA and DHA of the omega-3 family) seems appropriate for winter.  This splitting is along environmental lines of heat.  While heat keeps omega-6's fluid, cold would make these oils much less so.  Enter omega-3's .... their extra unsaturated site allows them to be fluid even in cold environments ... like ocean waters for salmon and winter for us.

I have to admit though, you will have trouble finding any nutrition councilor breaking things this way ... but it does IMO make sense.

There is also a genetic variation that points to this (work of Charles Bates) .... EFA cascades seem regular enough on paper, but these get very skewed by a number of people ... towards omega-3's by folks living near polar regions for generations ... and, towards omega-6's for those who have  tropical climates as ancestral background.  The problem does occur when an exchange of environment happens.  The taking of the others oil as an accommodation measure very often does not work.  There is a genetic override that does not permit an easy entrance of Polynesians to arctic climates, even if they take fish oils.

This EFA business is a little more complicated than it appears ..................

John


“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

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Henriette Bsec
Thursday, January 26, 2006, 12:00pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

swamied nomad chameleon receptor worldview
Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from John_McDonell_O+


This EFA business is a little more complicated than it appears ..................

John


Oh I had the feeling


ENFP -naturalist, visual/spatial and musical/verbal/chatty Dane- Mother to DD Emma age 19,
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