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san j
Monday, August 26, 2013, 8:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Chloe
MSG is found naturally in many natural foods like ripe cheeses. As a Teacher who should be getting a lot of cheese, I figured out pretty quickly I could tolerate none of them for this reason... Glutamate affects the brain, the nervous system and rarely does a doctor associate adverse symptoms from MSG with this chemical.... MSG can cause seizures.  Many people don't realize they're ingesting this chemical and many different terms are used to disguise this ingredient.  If you're an Explorer, you might be very aware of your sensitivities to chemicals....but for the rest of us....symptoms you can't explain might be connected to your ingestion of MSG.

Hi, Chloe.
For my part, I read your OP.
I am permitted mushrooms and parmesan cheese (not tomatoes or their juice - very high in glutamate), but I don't consider the enjoyment of them to be "ingestion of MSG" or "chemicals".
Likewise, I season with salt and do not consider the term "salt" to be a "disguise" for the "chemical" sodium chloride. I have enjoyed wine and not called it "imbibing ethanol".  

My understanding of glutamate is that our bodies manufacture it. Furthermore it is present in the proteins we eat. Human breast milk is high in sugars and glutamate.

I understand that there are people who must avoid high-glutamate foods.
I am truly sorry that it sends you to the ER. It would be interesting to know if you had such a reaction to mother's milk as a newborn.

As for restaurants:
Here in SF, many Chinese restaurants advertise that they do not add MSG to their dishes, meaning that the natural glutamates in most foods are the glutamates the diners are "ingesting". I've never known a Chinese restaurant to use parmesan cheese, but they do use plenty of mushrooms.
Italian restaurants use loads of both parmesan cheese and tomatoes, so it would seem that would be where the people with the "Glutamate-problem" are suffering the most (though I've never seen that published anywhere   ).

Don't worry, darlin'. It's not a bad topic, IMO. Inability to eat glutamate must be, to say the least, a very debilitating condition.


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san j  -  Monday, August 26, 2013, 9:11pm
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yaeli
Tuesday, August 27, 2013, 1:22am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Dr. Peter D'Adamo
Finally, there is the question of whether making things ‘easy’ for the body really serves our best long term interests. Many of the physiologic functions of the body are hormetic; they benefit from challenge and mild stress. Like exercise, they require challenge in order to induce a more robust response. On the other hand, over anticipating the needs of a complex system can actually increase its dependence and fragility.

Many of the physiologic functions of the body are hormetic. Dr. D is presenting the hormesis principle as is: a question unanswered. The answer is in individuality. It is tolerance in its broad meaning. How much, how far the body - and the mind - and the soul - are recommended to tolerate toxins in order to grow stronger and healthier, and moreover, forgiving and compassionate. In short, to flourish and win.



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yaeli  -  Tuesday, August 27, 2013, 1:52am
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Chloe
Tuesday, August 27, 2013, 1:37am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"
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yaeli
Tuesday, August 27, 2013, 1:50am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Thanks Chloe.


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Chloe
Tuesday, August 27, 2013, 2:23pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Enobattar
Thursday, August 29, 2013, 5:04pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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san j
Thursday, August 29, 2013, 6:08pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Since this interests you, here is the amino acid profile of mother's milk.
http://www.umamiinfo.com/images/stories/umami_science/milk_graf.gif

By a very wide margin, glutamate is the infant's "protein" punch.
There is more than 10x more glutamate in human than in cow's milk.

But, Chloe, it was just a question as to whether, therefore, you had to be put on formula.
No harm intended.  


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ruthiegirl
Thursday, August 29, 2013, 7:21pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Human milk is perfectly balanced for human babies- it contains the exact level of glutamate that human infants need, in perfect balance with other amino acids. Other foods might  be more reactive, even if they're lower in total glutamate, due to other factors in the food. One of the links talked about balancing glutamate with taurine, and there are likely other factors as well.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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san j
Thursday, August 29, 2013, 7:39pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ruthiegirl
Human milk is perfectly balanced for human babies- it contains the exact level of glutamate that human infants need, in perfect balance with other amino acids.

Exactly.
And of all the many amino acids comprising its protein "balance", glutamate is dominant, by a wide margin. In the whole panoply of amino acids, its level can be 60% higher than the #2 amino.
If the aminos in human breast milk were horses in a race, glutamate would be crossing the finish line while the #2 horse was still in the back stretch.
This is why I asked if our friend Chloe, for whom the ingestion of parmesano puts her health in urgent jeopardy, couldn't be breast fed as an infant. A logical question.

Hey - interesting corollary: The sheer dominance of glutamate in breast milk may go a long way toward explaining why humans like its distinctive flavor and why we're even having this conversation.  




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wayland B+
Thursday, August 29, 2013, 7:53pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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If there is 10X more glutamate in human milk than cow's.....maybe I didn't get enough  
(For the first 6+ months of my life my parents bottle-fed me nothing but raw, full-fat Jersey cow milk with added lactose that they bought from a HFS.)
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Chloe
Thursday, August 29, 2013, 8:39pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from san j
Since this interests you, here is the amino acid profile of mother's milk.
http://www.umamiinfo.com/images/stories/umami_science/milk_graf.gif

By a very wide margin, glutamate is the infant's "protein" punch.
There is more than 10x more glutamate in human than in cow's milk.

But, Chloe, it was just a question as to whether, therefore, you had to be put on formula.
No harm intended.  


I was a bottle fed baby.  My mother's first child.  Either she didn't adequately learn how to breast
feed a baby or like my father once told me...."you made faces when your mother tried to nurse you
and turned your head".  I somehow intuit that I rejected my mother's milk.



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san j
Thursday, August 29, 2013, 8:42pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Chloe
I rejected my mother's milk.

Fascinating, Chloe!


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Chloe
Thursday, August 29, 2013, 9:23pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from san j

Fascinating, Chloe!


Jusr want to make a correction.  MSG, the ingredient added to foods is the problem for me. A soup laden with an obviously heavy dose of MSG caused me to pass out after having super weird symptoms where I felt lightheaded, drooling, seeing spots and lines in my visual field and
then suddenly, everything went dark...

Parmesan cheese and many other aged cheese gives me a massive headache that is not life
threatening, nor do I think MSG as an ingredient would actually cause anaphylactic shock although
I'm careful when I'm reading labels and try to totally avoid all forms of disguised MSG...

Aged cheeses are high in tyramine and cause headaches in many individuals so perhaps there is another issue related to me not doing well on parmesan.

This link explains the difference between free and bound glutamate.  I only know my issue is
with the chemical additive monosodium glutamate.  Often found as a flavor enhancer and used
pretty often in restaurants, especially Chinese.

http://www.msgmyth.com/discus/messages/7/698.html


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ruthiegirl
Thursday, August 29, 2013, 9:28pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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It sounds to me like your mom had zero support with breastfeeding. Babies have a "rooting reflex" and turn their heads towards a cheek that's stroked. Many women try to turn the baby's head towards the breast by holding onto the opposite cheek- which just makes the baby turn away from the breast. Don't touch the baby's head at all and brush your nipple against the baby's cheek and it all works just fine.

But much of that information was "lost" for a time in urban areas of the world. It was never forgotten in rural areas, so thankfully it wasn't lost forever. When Chloe was a baby, breastfeeding information and support simply wasn't available in most non-rural areas. Some women still breastfed, but those who hit "little bumps on the road" just switched to formula because they simply didn't know there were other options. There really WEREN'T other options for them at that time, with the information and support they had.

So, we don't know how baby Chloe would have done on breastmilk because it wasn't available to her. Nor do we know what her health would be like now if she had been successfully breastfed.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Victoria
Thursday, August 29, 2013, 9:51pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Chloe
This thread was meant to be educational and wasn't meant to become a thread on the obsession of anyone's compliancy nor would I fault anyone who tries to be as compliant as they believe they need to be or wish to be.  These are healing diets......and many are dealing with serious health issues
that require very serious compliancy
.

. . people really wish to be validated for their beliefs, not be convinced that they have faulty thinking or have made a poor interpretation of facts.  Otherwise, this is judging another and that to me is being self righteous.

Judge the toxins.....THe last thing we ever want to do on this forum is judge a person's beliefs about the choices they've made for themselves.  If you wish to cook every morsel of food in your own kitchen 24/7....go for it.  It's your right to do whatever you like.  


Thank you, Chloe.  



Normal day, let me be aware of the treasure you are.
Let me not pass you by in quest
of some rare and perfect tomorrow.
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Chloe
Friday, August 30, 2013, 12:32am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ruthiegirl
It sounds to me like your mom had zero support with breastfeeding. Babies have a "rooting reflex" and turn their heads towards a cheek that's stroked. Many women try to turn the baby's head towards the breast by holding onto the opposite cheek- which just makes the baby turn away from the breast. Don't touch the baby's head at all and brush your nipple against the baby's cheek and it all works just fine.

But much of that information was "lost" for a time in urban areas of the world. It was never forgotten in rural areas, so thankfully it wasn't lost forever. When Chloe was a baby, breastfeeding information and support simply wasn't available in most non-rural areas. Some women still breastfed, but those who hit "little bumps on the road" just switched to formula because they simply didn't know there were other options. There really WEREN'T other options for them at that time, with the information and support they had.

So, we don't know how baby Chloe would have done on breastmilk because it wasn't available to her. Nor do we know what her health would be like now if she had been successfully breastfed.


In 1942, the year I was born, moms were kept in the hospital with their newborns for over a week....If nursing was supposed to begin in the hospital, you'd think a nurse
would have helped my mother succeed.  WIll never know....although now I have a different perception of the role I played in not being nursed.  You're right...likely poor technique and not
the story my dad told that I rejected being nursed.

And yet this didn't take place in a non rural area. I was born in Bronx Lebanon Hospital. And after the war, it became rather fashionable to bottle feed babies.  THe bad part was that this was prior to commercial formulas which at least contained nutrients. (still a poor replacement for
mother's milk)  Most babies who weren't nursed in my generation were fed sweetened ( Karo syrup) cow's milk.  OMG corn syrup, casein and lactose......How did my generation survive with
such a pathetic start in life.




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Victoria
Friday, August 30, 2013, 1:05am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Chloe

Most babies who weren't nursed in my generation were fed sweetened ( Karo syrup) cow's milk.  OMG corn syrup, casein and lactose......How did my generation survive with such a pathetic start in life.


I was one of those babies, Chloe.  My mother was a school teacher and I was born the end of June.  She nursed me for a few months - I think 3 or 4 - by driving home on her lunch break.  During the day, my Grandmother bottle-fed me with Karo syrup and canned milk.  

It is no wonder that I had bronchitis most of my life and IBS.



Normal day, let me be aware of the treasure you are.
Let me not pass you by in quest
of some rare and perfect tomorrow.
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ruthiegirl
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Quoted from Chloe
And yet this didn't take place in a non rural area. I was born in Bronx Lebanon Hospital. And after the war, it became rather fashionable to bottle feed babies.  THe bad part was that this was prior to commercial formulas which at least contained nutrients. (still a poor replacement for
mother's milk)  Most babies who weren't nursed in my generation were fed sweetened ( Karo syrup) cow's milk.  OMG corn syrup, casein and lactose......How did my generation survive with
such a pathetic start in life.
I'm well aware of the history of bottle feeding. Very,very few women breastfed in urban areas such as NYC. People in rural areas where they couldn't get to the hospitals, and where there just wasn't money to buy the "fashionable modern formula" when breastmilk is free- those are the places where the arts of breastfeeding were never lost. By the time my oldest brother was born in 1969, bottle feeding was the norm on Long Island. There was ONE La Leche League chapter in all of LI, and there were only a dozen moms in the group. My mom had to really fight the system to nurse us.



Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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san j
Friday, August 30, 2013, 3:04am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Chloe
Jusr want to make a correction.  MSG, the ingredient added to foods is the problem for me.
...perhaps there is another issue related to me not doing well on parmesan...
I only know my issue is with the chemical additive monosodium glutamate.

Thanks for correcting yourself, Chloe.
The inability to metabolize glutamate, an essential amino acid, would be something very dangerous and serious, as you indicated in your OP:

Quoted Text
MSG is found naturally in many natural foods like ripe cheeses. As a Teacher who should be getting a lot of cheese, I figured out pretty quickly I could tolerate none of them for this reason.  I for one landed in the ER many years ago...Glutamate affects the brain, the nervous system...

I took you at your word and felt Pretty Bad for you.  


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Mrs T O+
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Unfortunately, I was bottle-fed, too. I was born in late 1947. My family was kind of anti-sugar, so I find it hard to believe I was any fed Karo syrup! Yuck! I wonder what they gave us.

I doubt that even rural areas nursed their babies that much at that time. If so, it must have been for a few months. Most farms probably had a cow for family milk.

By the time I had my kids 1976 & '79, I was convinced of nursing & was very active in LaLeche.  There is so much to learn about nursing & still in the 2010 decade there is still much misinformation!
It is saddening to me, but I have to learn not to anguish over other folks' decisions.


Interested in nutrition, lactation, religion, politics; love to be around people; talkative, sensitive, goofy; a "fishy Christian" ><>; left-handed; lived on a farm, small town & big city; love BTD/GTD; A staunch La Leche League veteran; b. 10/1947 Check BTD/GTD on facebook!
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san j
Sunday, September 1, 2013, 3:13am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Thanks, Chloe, for inspiring me to read about the amino acid, glutamine.
In its way, it stands head and shoulders above the others, with its extra nitrogen molecule to spare...
Feel good, girl.  


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