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A thread to discuss lyme disease*  This thread currently has 151,629 views. Print Print Thread
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Kim
Sunday, October 2, 2011, 6:36pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I am doing the artichoke but I am not in pain.  A low ejection fraction like that suggests that the gallbladder isn't squeezing and emptying properly.  The Gastro doctor said that HIDA scans are controversial.  She can see someone like me with a 5% ejection fraction with no symptoms, and have someone else with a higher ejection fraction near normal with all kinds of pain.

My DH wants me to wait and speak to my Lyme doctor before scheduling surgery. I am going to call my ND tomorrow for his opinion on it.
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JJR
Sunday, October 2, 2011, 6:41pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Yeah, I'd definitely get another opinion before removing anything.  It is my opinion that the body is an amazing resilient piece of work.  What percentage may be now, might not necessarily constitute what it could be in the future.  Damage is not always final or reversible.  In my humble opinion.  But, having said that, I don't have anything to back that up scientifically.  And it's a hope that I myself probably question at times.  But really have no clue.  Yet, it's ultimately how I feel.  


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Chloe
Sunday, October 2, 2011, 6:59pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from JJR
It is my opinion that the body is an amazing resilient piece of work.


My opinion too.



"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"
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ABJoe
Sunday, October 2, 2011, 7:36pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from JJR
Yeah, I'd definitely get another opinion before removing anything.  It is my opinion that the body is an amazing resilient piece of work.  What percentage may be now, might not necessarily constitute what it could be in the future.  Damage is not always final or reversible.

I'm definitely not for removing the gall bladder.  I've seen how it messes up the digestion process to be without it.  I think it would have to be ruptured for me to authorize removal because as long as it is in, the body has the opportunity to heal it.  

Surgery is going to be one more thing to have to heal from, along with any toxins - anesthetics, IV avoids, etc. introduced during prep or the surgery / recovery...


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JJR
Sunday, October 2, 2011, 10:34pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I should've said, "irreversible".  I was thinking exactly what Joe said.  It would have to be exploded or something and detrimental to my life if I left it in.  But I would think any function is better than none.


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Kim
Monday, October 3, 2011, 7:24pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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It isn't that cut and dry when you have Lyme disease.  If the gallbladder has lots of inflammation, it adds to the immune system problems and makes Lyme treatment extremely difficult.  

Testing, can show stones, blockages, sometimes thickening, but it doesn't always show sludge or disease.  Some people with really diseased gallbladders don't even have symptoms.  Leaving a diseased organ in your body can't be good either.  

The spirochetes get in there, and I am told that it is difficult for antibiotics to penetrate the gallbladder.  

I have had a fair amount of gallbladder pain in the past 4 years.  Since using swami, it has only happened once.  I don't have pain now, but that doesn't mean that my gallbladder isn't diseased.  If it isn't squeezing to realease bile as I eat, then it isn't doing a lot for digestion either.  The question is, will I be worse off without it.  Not everyone feels better after they have their gallbladder out.
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ABJoe
Monday, October 3, 2011, 11:54pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Kim
The question is, will I be worse off without it.

This is something that you never will know.  My tendency is to keep it if it is functioning at all, understanding that it may or may not delay healing of the rest of the body...
  
If you take it out, you won't know if it might have healed.  Only you will know if you feel better with it out, but won't be able to tell until you have healed from the surgery.

If you leave it in and go through some time and it still doesn't get any better, you can still make the decision to get it removed, but you won't know if it slowed healing progress during that time.

If you leave it in and it heals along with the rest of the body, then you will be thankful that it is there - although again, you won't know if it shortened or extended the healing time or by how much...

The best you can do is make a decision based on the input you have and move forward.  I wish you the best no matter what you decide to do because it is your decision, not mine.


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JJR
Tuesday, October 4, 2011, 1:20am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kim, from what I understand, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, the spirochetes can get into any organ.  Your Brain, liver, spleen, heart, etc etc.  Yet, I don't think I'd want to remove my liver, just because I knew it wasn't functioning as well as it could be without the spirochetes wreaking havoc.  That's just my simple mind working.  I realize that people live without their gallbladder, but I would be concerned as to how, and how well.  A gal in our church has hers removed, and I don't think it has hurt her severely.  But I think she is much more sensitive to foods now.  Which, doesn't seem like all that terrible to me, because I already am.  But, she doesn't have any other huge problems that I know of.  She is overweight, but I'm not sure if that's a symptom of having your gallbladder out or not.  That's the only person I know with theirs gone.

I just think it has a chance to turn itself around.  That's my point.  But I'm not a doctor, and I could be wrong.


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Chloe
Tuesday, October 4, 2011, 1:47am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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JJR
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Chloe, have you used those?

I don't know if I ever heard your story Chloe.  Leanne told me you were the one that encouraged her to look into this lyme thing more.  And she encouraged me more.  So, I'm grateful to you.  

Is there anything that you did that made significant impacts in killing this, off the top of your head?  Or are they too numerous too mention?  Maybe some of both.  I apologize if I'd be making you repeat yourself.  This thread is long enough that I don't remember what you all said.  Or if you did say a lot, what page was it?  Have you blogged about your experience?


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Ribbit
Wednesday, October 5, 2011, 6:03pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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She wrote about it some on my old thread about my ER trip, which is where I became convinced that's what I had.  And evidently we'd talked about it before, but I couldn't remember it because, well, that's the nature of the beast.

I have a question about healing crises.  Joe--this one's for you.  I've been eating at least one large clove of raw garlic a day.  My stomach hurts for a couple of hours after I eat it.  My tendency would be to avoid raw garlic.  But maybe, just maybe, it's actually doing me some good and I should keep it up.  I guess I've learned over the years to avoid anything that causes pain (emotional or physical), but if it kills something bad in my body, I'm willing to keep it up.  Would you call a stomach ache from garlic a healing crisis?

I also have another thought.  I had thought that every time my skin gets really bad it must be because I ate something wrong or I'm having a flare-up of some sort.  It's taken several years to notice patterns, but what I'm seeing is there are several things that go hand in hand for me: depression, migraine, paranoia, bloating, brain fog and skin boils.  I'm still having these problems occasionally despite my extreme avoidance of nightshade plants which I know for a fact cause it.  I noticed after this last episode that when things started clearing up, I started feeling really good!  I'm able to think clearly and calmly and I'm even cleaning out my closet/bedroom because it's needed it for a long time.  I tend to wonder around in circles, not being able to put a finger on the reasons for my frustrations, and now I can see it all clearly.  I haven't organized efficiently because I haven't had time or energy, and I couldn't even think well enough to see it before.  I don't know how long it'll last. I unloaded on JJ the other night on the phone and really it was just a last straw---I felt like the whole world was crumbling around me.  Now I feel much better and my skin is clearing back up and my face isn't puffy like it's been for a couple of weeks.  It's always associated with a migraine.....Like I almost *needed* to get sick so I could feel better.  Does that make any sense?  Kind of like when I run a fever.  It's rare I run one, because my body temp is low.  But when I can manage to get a little one, I feel so good afterwords!  It burns off all sorts of junk I've accumulated.  I guess I'm beginning to see times of bottoming out as healing rather than getting worse.  My neighbor, who is unofficially counseling me, asked me last week if my skin breaks out when I'm emotionally upset.  It had never occurred to me because I squash emotions partly because I don't know how to deal with them and partly because I don't have the time or the patience to sort through stuff.  But he'd asked me some questions that provoked me to look through a box of stuff I'd stashed away ten years ago, and just being reminded about things (or accidentally reading stuff that I'd never read in the first place--stressful e-mails I'd printed but not read)...it made me feel for the rest of the day like I was going to throw up and I was having trouble even talking to him (the neighbor).  Couldn't complete sentences and all that.  But his question about my skin breaking out when I'm emotionally stressed made me start wondering if it's all tied up together.


ISTJ, BTD since 5/05.  Battling chronic Lyme disease since ~1985.

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Kim
Wednesday, October 5, 2011, 6:58pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from JJR
Kim, from what I understand, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, the spirochetes can get into any organ.  Your Brain, liver, spleen, heart, etc etc.  Yet, I don't think I'd want to remove my liver, just because I knew it wasn't functioning as well as it could be without the spirochetes wreaking havoc.  

I just think it has a chance to turn itself around.  That's my point.  But I'm not a doctor, and I could be wrong.


The spirochetes can get into any organ but they are extremely difficult to treat in the gallbladder.  For some reason, the drugs don't penetrate that organ well and that is why many, many lyme patients lose their gallbladder.  Some people do fine when having it out, but others have a problem with diarrhea when they eat any fats and the urgency can be immediate.

I am hanging onto my gallbladder until my next appt on the 25th and then will see if I can duke it out with the lyme doctor.  

I would probably be in pain if not for swami.  I can eat fat all day with no pain.  

I am going to check out some of the links Chloe posted.
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Ribbit
Thursday, October 6, 2011, 2:02am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I have a question about fats.  I don't have diarrhea from eating fats, but I'm becoming convinced that animal fat (with the exception of ghee) causes my skin to be excessively oily.  I've quit eating meat except the occasional fish and very occasional bite of turkey.  Oven roasted I can handle (I eat it maybe once a month).  Ground turkey I cannot, perhaps because when it's roasted the fat drips out for the most part.  Is the inability to process fat (so it comes out my skin) caused by a gallbladder problem?  Again, fat doesn't affect my digestive system.  (I also avoid meat because it causes my digestive system to grind to a screeching halt, but that's because I have pretty severe pelvic organ prolapse....possibly because of Lyme, since my connective tissues are weak.)


ISTJ, BTD since 5/05.  Battling chronic Lyme disease since ~1985.

"Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial..."  I Corinthians 6:12

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Ribbit
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I have one more thing to add to the post about my skin break-outs.

My husband reminded me that I'd thought garlic and  onions used to be a problem for me.  He said I used to complain that, eaten raw, they made my skin smell like sulfur.  In fact, I'd quit eating both of them for a period of several months (a few years ago) because I started wondering if they were causing my skin to break out too.

So he said, "When did you get this last break-out?" (He's been out of town.)  "About four days ago," I answered.  "How long have you been doing this raw-clove-of-garlic-a-day thing?" he asked.  "Less than a week?  Maybe about a week?" I answered.

That leads me to another thought then.  Maybe raw garlic does cause skin issues--but maybe that's a good thing!  Maybe it's cleaning out something inside that shouldn't be there, causing it to die off and come through my skin.

Here's something else to make you wrinkle your brow:  I've written before about how when I go through a detox session (aka herx), a mole or two on my right arm will bubble up, itch, turn into a scab, flake off and leave a scar.  One ND I saw, when this happened, said, "Yes, many  moles are viral, just like warts.  If you kill the viruses, they can go away."  So every couple of years without warning, a mole on my right arm will do it again. I have little scars up and down my right arm that have gone through that process.  Cool, huh?  I'd never heard of anybody losing a mole because they detoxed.  So anyway, with this skin break-out this past week, a big mole on the back of my left arm, that's been there for as long as I can remember, bubbled up and today a patch scratched off.  Underneath is new, clean, pink skin.  Yes, folks, I'm not going to think of skin break-outs as bad and "sick" anymore.  I'm going to start thinking of them as my body cleaning itself out of viruses and bacteria that it can't get rid of any other way.  This is the first time I've lost one on my left arm.  


ISTJ, BTD since 5/05.  Battling chronic Lyme disease since ~1985.

"Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial..."  I Corinthians 6:12

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JJR
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Kim, I think it's good to ask the lyme doctor what he thinks about it.  

Ribbit, I'm thankful that I could be there for you.  God is good and I was blessed by the conversation.  There is a lot in your question, and I'll leave Joe to answer his wisdom.  All I wanted to add was I always feel better the next day after having a fever, and secondly, I am tromping through the emotional also.  I do it a little here and there, reading things, etc, trying to uncover past hurts, or whatever.  I know there is a component, as I struggle with fear.  But then again, being really sick can make you fearful, no matter who you are.  Of course I notice that some people are more prone to it than others.  But I know I had a hard childhood, with my Dad being an alcoholic and what not.  But I'm thinking nobodies childhood was a walk in the park.  But maybe some people were more blessed and cared for than others?  I don't know.


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Wow, on the mole thing.  I had no clue!!!  I have a few that I'd like to see fall off.  


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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ABJoe
Thursday, October 6, 2011, 3:03am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Ribbit
I have a question about fats.  I don't have diarrhea from eating fats, but I'm becoming convinced that animal fat (with the exception of ghee) causes my skin to be excessively oily.  I've quit eating meat except the occasional fish and very occasional bite of turkey.  Oven roasted I can handle (I eat it maybe once a month).  Ground turkey I cannot, perhaps because when it's roasted the fat drips out for the most part.  Is the inability to process fat (so it comes out my skin) caused by a gallbladder problem?  Again, fat doesn't affect my digestive system.

Several things:
1) Ground turkey meat will cause more issues because the fat is all mixed with the muscle tissues.  Whole parts have the fat around the edges, etc., so it separates out easier during cooking...

2) Fat digestion is aided by the bile, so it is possible that the gall bladder could be the problem, although I would think, the liver is more at fault if you aren't having pain at the point where the bottom of the right ribcage turns sideways after going down from the sternum.  

I am detoxing some beef and pork fat and getting the oily skin syndrome.  My liver is working better due to healing I have been doing, but I think there is just so much healing happening that the body is using all of its resources...  I have also been detoxing small hard chunks through the skin.  I don't know what it is, but I'm glad it is leaving.

I have also not been eating much red meat or poultry.  The body just hasn't wanted it...  Fish, eggs, beans and nuts have been the majority of my protein for several months, although I still eat about 2 meals of liver each week...  



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JJR
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It's funny, because I feel the opposite lately.  I have not eaten very much red meat over the last 5 years, that now I'm craving it big time.  And it seems to be helping.  Which I would think it would make my liver sluggish too.  I'm not entirely CERTAIN that it's helping.  But I always seem to feel better after eating it.  Especially lamb.  But venison too.  Beef seems like I could take it or leave it.  But it doesn't seem bad.  


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Goldie
Thursday, October 6, 2011, 4:49pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I would like to know if Dr D ever dealt with this as a whole or in part..

This is a more devastating illness then all else.. and just antibiotics will only do little..

http://www.underourskin.com/

addresses only half the equation.. we need to see this in order to  even come close to understanding any of its effects on the person living with Lyme.. whether inherited in utero or from a sting..

I would be pleased if someone knows where I can find his views.. THANKS..


Being here is invaluable, but not enough. We need ALL the Doctors. I needed them for a very small cancer spot-I could never feel!!! Please do your mammograms! Doing so saved me from cancer later on. I am grateful! Thanks for learning from my experience! I was lucky! I wish the same for YOU!
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Kim
Thursday, October 6, 2011, 5:44pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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One thing for sure is that there is no one size fits all protocol for Lyme disease treatment.

Each individual has coinfections that can change treatment, along with the length of time the individual has been infected.  

Any LLMD I have spoken to will tell you they change treatment protocols all the time based on individual needs and all say that the best you can hope for is remission.  


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Goldie
Thursday, October 6, 2011, 6:44pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Yes .. the post above is so correct.. The movie shows only smidgens of hardship.. like hospitalizations ending up in a mental ward, and getting treatment accordingly..

the silence of the voice so similar in autistics.. to where the adult can hear but not respond..

what of kids? that don't even have a clue?

I feel I, feel so for all and wish more would learn.. to recognize the multiple symptoms... We all might depend on it for sanity...  and comprehension what this is all about.. Ignoring any aspects nor the available info is not enough..


Being here is invaluable, but not enough. We need ALL the Doctors. I needed them for a very small cancer spot-I could never feel!!! Please do your mammograms! Doing so saved me from cancer later on. I am grateful! Thanks for learning from my experience! I was lucky! I wish the same for YOU!
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Lola
Thursday, October 6, 2011, 6:59pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted Text
She incorporates the best of naturopathic medicine with traditional medicine when treating Lyme disease and the potentially devastating effects of this endemic problem in Connecticut.

http://www.dadamo.com/clinic/gn.htm


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JJR
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Thank you for the link Lola.  

Interesting enough, I was going through my Louis Hays books and she didn't have anything on Lyme's either.  It's a cover up reaching even Louis???  Just kidding.  


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"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Ok lets say there are many topics to be covered.. so can I ask about written stuff on one topic at a time..

Once Lyme infected:  what makes them become a person that eventually develops accumulations of all kinds of bugs, worms and the like.  How would one get rid of lets say:  Ringworms, tapeworm, hookworms and their larvae? can that ever be done?

or: how would a person effectively test for such? can they be eliminated from all over the body or only the intestines, ever? or do they hide to well?  how would one even know about any progress? would it show up in certain test's?  

What would be the best test to find out anything?  how long is a test done today good for? how soon do bugs re-infest?  how would anyone know?

Is, what is seen in stool really bugs?      dead or alive.. which should one see?  can they ever be expected to be reduced from the brain area?    

Any answer or link is appreciated.

  


Being here is invaluable, but not enough. We need ALL the Doctors. I needed them for a very small cancer spot-I could never feel!!! Please do your mammograms! Doing so saved me from cancer later on. I am grateful! Thanks for learning from my experience! I was lucky! I wish the same for YOU!
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