We need to really work on schedules for all of us. Somehow, we were up past midnight reading out loud to DS and then DD2 was up even later reading independently.

I intend to get DS to bed by 10:00 tonight so he'll be back on track. Even if he's not tired at 10:00 PM (which we won't be, after sleeping until 1:45 PM) I can give him melatonin to fall asleep, and break the cycle.

What I really need is something to get DD2 to fall asleep even when she's "not tired" but melatonin doesn't work for her. It's really, really hard to reset her schedule when she can't fall asleep at normal times, even if I do manage to wake her up early.

I just read a couple days ago that the body simply can't go into "sleep mode" without adequate B6 and zinc.  Zinc level can be tested by swishing a 0.1% solution of zinc sulfate (can be bought cheap in stores or online) in the mouth for 10 seconds then spitting it out:

immediate strong taste = no deficiency
immediate very slight taste = no deficiency, but not high levels either
taste after a few seconds or even after spitting it out = slight deficiency
no taste ever = very deficient

It might be worth looking into since it's not that she can't fall asleep but actually doesn't even get tired.

What are good food sources of zinc? This is the child who won't swallow pills or take any vitamin supplements, plus is rather picky about foods, so it wouldn't surprise me if she has nutritional deficiencies.

Quoted Text

What are good food sources of zinc?

http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000124000000000000000.html

I understand because I always choked on pills when I tried to swallow them so I refused to take pill-form supplements until I was in high school; however, I don't think just food-sources would be enough to correct a deficiency   zinc can be taken in liquid form if your daughter is up for that.  The liquid form is usually fairly dilute so she may have to take quite a bit, but at least it's not a pill

Perhaps it worth having a look at inclined bed therapy.

I'm not sure it's possible to incline a bunkbed though PC.

perhaps start with a extra pillow

also http://www.sleephealthy.com/sleepsolutions/children.shtml

or swap beds for a bit to see if it helps

sheet of wood put under matress then incline the wood hey prestow inclined bunk bed oxo

If I incline the bunkbed too much, she may bump her head on the bottom of the top bunk! There isnt' THAT much space in there! And I am not willing to trade beds with her.

But I really don't think that changing her bed is the source or the solution to the problem. She can't sleep because she's not feeling tired, and an inclined bed isn't likely to change that.

Actually I'm surprised you don't give it a go, or that you haven't tried switching beds for a few days or a week just to see what happens, you might find out the problem. it seems like it might be worth a try- but at least it gives you another option if you decide to try it.

some of the advice on the site is good advice re sleep anyway.

also the bunk bed thing might be a cause of the sleep problems, you just never know. perhaps who ever she is sharing with is a noisy sleeper. stranger things have happened

The top bunk is empty this month, and will be all summer- except for one night. DD1 is at sleepaway camp, so DS has moved from the top bunk in our room to DD1's empty bed. She comes home on the 26th and he leaves on the 27th, so the evening of the 26th DS will sleep on the top  bunk and DD1 will be in the other room, but then the top bunk will be empty again until late August when his camp ends.

We've had this bunkbed for about 2 years, but the insomnia only started a few months ago. I really don't think it's the bed.

Last night we had a talk about working together to try and get her on a better sleep schedule. I suggested she leave me a note with the time she falls asleep, so I don't try to wake her up too early on nights she was up late, and conversley, I don't let her sleep too long on nights she fell asleep earlier. She got to bed at 5:03 this morning (after sleeping until 3:00 PM yesterday) and then she woke up  briefly around 10:00 AM when DS and I were awake and talking and I'd forgotten to close the bedroom door. I plan to wake her around noon (so, as soon as I finish this post) and then get us to the beach by 1:00 ish. I figure three things:

1) She's more likely to get up if we have plans; "something to get up for,."

2) The sunlight should do her good

3) The exercise early in the day should do her good.

Sounds vise Ruth
Please read this
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-light-affects-our-sleep/

I know my daughter doesn't want to get up in the morning when she doesn't have to...  she just doesn't like morning very well, but will get up if she has something she needs to do.  She will even schedule early morning classes for herself if the teacher is better, etc...  Your daughter may be wanting to be more independent with her schedule.  Other than giving her tasks that need to be accomplished at a specified time, I don't know how to prompt her to get up and do something...

Giving her tasks that need to be done at a specified time is an exercise in frustration for both of us. Her chores consist of things like putting away laundry- if she doesn't do it "on time" then it piles up and waits for her to do it later. When I assigned her to putting the trash and recycling on the curb (which only had to be done "sometime in the afternoon or evening before pickup day") oftentimes it didn't get done, or I'd end up screaming at her when it was my bedtime and it wasn't done yet, or somebody else in the family (sometimes me, sometimes another child) did it instead, and sometimes the trash or recycling simply piled up (to extra screaming the following time that it REALLY had to be done now!!)

Give her chores that need to be  done in a specific time frame, like the morning? Forget it! They will not get done.

She doesn't have any specific activities scheduled this summer, until mid August when she goes away for 10 days. So there's nothing for her to get up for, other than "DS and I are going to the beach now- are you coming with us or not?"

I tried waking her up at 12:05. She wanted to snooze. DS and I went to the supermarket, then woke her up again. She told him she was getting up, but that was about 5 or 10 minutes ago and she's still in the bedroom.

I'm getting very frustrated with her. I don't want to deal with her, bored and whiney, later, if I don't take her to the beach with me. But I'm tired of waiting around for her.

Here is a link to a pretty cool (FREE) (so been warned and do virus check etc.

programme that darkens your computer screen at night and lighnes in during the day.

I just tried it and it certainly does relax your eyes.

anyone tried it please let me know what you think.

Not sure if your daughter used computer at night but it may help.

got it from an earlier link on bi rhythms above from Henrietta. Thanks oxo

forgot the link lol

http://stereopsis.com/flux/

Honestly, I'd rather just say "computer off by 9:00 PM" than play around with the screen controls. Reading has GOT to be better for falling asleep than looking at any kind of screen.

Absolutely agree Ruthie, just wasn't sure if your daughter used computers much and it all may help.

it really eases my eye strain a lot and i have only been using tonight. it installed itself in a minute and worked straight away.

I come back to saying that ..if she traveled to other time zones she would get used tot hem./.

what will she do when school starts again?  

I think reading used to keep me interested longer then dark rooms would have.. but a screen thingy I have not looked at might help if she tried it early at night..

Is it a power struggle?  

IF it was me.. then to the Beach by 11 no matter if she comes or not. the choice is HERS.. but the voice you use to delcare the rule for tomorrow must be totally without rancor and without anger.. just matter of fact..

manipulation is learned so easy..
I think telling you when she went to sleep is less important then telling you when she wan't to be woken..
AND never mind: the doors OPEN at 8 in the morning.. even when men work all night the wives are entitled to a life..

We all make choices, but we all don't LEARN to act on them.. I am not saying that there are many choices for her, but teh real world will not care when she wants to sleep.  Somehow she needs to see that if she is out of whack the she loses out on activeties.. BUT again.. no threats no anger, just dissapoinment that she can not participate.. + AHH I am so sorry, but we will see you later.. even if you have to get a babisitter to stay with her.. for a few days..2 weeks the most.. if you stay strong..

I am sending you a pm.. on how to do this..

Well I use the flux program and like it very much.
I have thought about getting  Emma to use it as well.

Goldie- part of the problem is that I've been "out of sorts" for months. It takes a LOT of energy for me to get myself up and going in the morning, and even more energy to get her up as well. If she wants to come to the beach with us, I really need her to get up half an hour before we leave and pack up her own  damn food! The second-to-last time I dragged her to the beach when she was half asleep, it was infuriating- I wanted her to get up to help get ready to go, when she went back to bed to rest "until it was time to go." The last time went better, because we'd discussed everything the night before.

I don't have the energy to fight with her, and I don't want an antagonistic relationship with her. If she's not doing her part, I won't do mine.

Let's see what happens for the rest of the summer. DD1 has been on a good schedule at sleepaway camp; on Tuesday she comes home, let's see if her schedule rubs off on DD2 at all. Then in mid-August, DD2 goes on a teen tour for 10 days. Perhaps she'll come home from that on a better schedule.