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15yo O and sleeping patterns/insomnia  This thread currently has 2,880 views. Print Print Thread
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ruthiegirl
Wednesday, July 6, 2011, 11:28pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I'm worried about my 15yo. She's been having a hard time falling asleep for a while now. She gets into bed and simply can't fall asleep most of the time. Melatonin does absolutely nothing for her.

We've discovered that it's worse when she hasnt' exercised, but it still happens on days when she's gotten enough exercise.

She's mostly compliant,  but I'm sure she consumes more sugar than she should, doesn't limit conventional sodas (HFCS) when away from home (once or twice a week, and not every week), and I know for a fact she had corn on the cob this weekend at a friend's house. She's very strict about avoiding wheat, and I think she gets enough protein and almost enough vegetables msot of the time.

She's alseep right now, but then she didn't sleep at all last night. She was up until about 1:00 or 2:00 AM reading (which I consider reasonable for a teenager over the summer), couldn't sleep, got up and read some more. When I got up at 11:00 AM, she was still up from the night before. She doesn't understand why this is happening- we went to the beach yesterday, got plenty of exercise and sunshine, showered when we got home, and she ate plenty of "real food," all of it compliant. So why couldn't she sleep?

She also has a problem with one of her fingernails. I don't know if it's a completely unrelated problem or if it indicates a nutritional deficiency that could affect her sleep. She's completely missing a cuticle on one finger- apparently she picked at her cuticles a bit too much and that one never grew back. The nail is "wiggly" on that finger, rather than smooth and straight. Is there soemthing she can put on the finger to help the nail grow normally again?


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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geminisue
Wednesday, July 6, 2011, 11:54pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ruthie
She's 15, I noticed the same thing happened in all three of my children, and also been hearing about the same thing happening to my two oldest grandchildren, about the same year.  It seems their minds won't shut off, to let them sleep. I insisted my children went to bed, at a certain time. Lights off, no phone calls, no tv, no games.
They would complain they were awake for hours, but sometimes this happened, other times, they fell asleep within two hours of laying down.

If she is concerned about it and is asking you why she isn't sleeping, ask her to try and look at something orange for 5-10 minutes, after viewing anything on a screen.  This is suppose to turn down the thought process for the night.  It helps me, not sure about teens, my two grandchildren, haven't tried it that I know about.  They are 18 and almost 17 now, and are both sleeping better.  No harm was done, by the lost of sleep they experienced.  

Hugs
Linda
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Mark
Thursday, July 7, 2011, 12:22am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Valerian is pretty good for O's before sleep, especially in conjunction with the melatonin. Just be sure to cycle the supplements.
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Lola
Thursday, July 7, 2011, 1:05am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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lower her frequency values of compliant carbs throughout the day

a blood sugar reading before bed might be right.....to monitor


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Goldie
Thursday, July 7, 2011, 4:01am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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LEAVE the child alone.. leave her not worry, leave her to her self, not worry about it.. the best way to confuse a kid is with expectations.. and by paying overly attention.. leave her she will sleep when she needs to.. IT IS the way kids learn to read books.. I used to read with a candle or flashlight.. but I read.. others never learned that .. but she is not allowed to INTERFERE in the sleep of others.. (it's just menopause in reverse) she will even out as soon as school starts..

Melatonin at that young age would not be indicated..

Carbs don't matter either, nor does compliancy if she is willing to do some things at least.. that then needs to be good enough..  

NOW the nail that is concerning me seriously.. seen a doctor? could it be some form of fungus? I would see a doctor and have him test it with I think blue light.. a nail bed is to be healthy..  I googled nail bed issues, I'm sorry I did..

At 15 kids /girls can have issues they don't care to admit ..like.. itching another sign of fungus from wetness like bathing suits, or not drying after urination.. .. some kids have issues so severe that they can not help but itch and then feel embarrassed that there are feelings there.. (summer is a good time for just such a hygiene conversation..) not all things are talked about unless someone opens the conversation..  

Is the sewing machine in her room? maybe she would just learn to sew as I did when I was young.. get her yarn to make a blanket.. or some embroidery pillows.. anything to keep quiet and still busy that allows for thinking and yet allow sleep to come by doing repetitious work..

Some people sleep after a bath.. I am not one of them.. a banana might help to sleep, or chocolate.. some honey in milk for some.. PINK is the color to relax by, but it has to be solid pink..

As long as she is ok, and does not fret then I would not worry..   soon she will go into the next phaze.. sleeping all day..  


Being here is invaluable, but not enough. We need ALL the Doctors. I needed them for a very small cancer spot-I could never feel!!! Please do your mammograms! Doing so saved me from cancer later on. I am grateful! Thanks for learning from my experience! I was lucky! I wish the same for YOU!
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brinyskysail
Thursday, July 7, 2011, 4:53am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Goldie has a point.  I had sleeping problems for years, and the more I thought about it, the worse it was.  As soon as I stopped worrying/thinking about it, it went away - just like that, after years of sleeplessness.  Don't mention anything about that to your daughter though; trying to get her to stop thinking about it will only make it harder to not think about.  I'd try just letting it run its course.  If it doesn't go away after school starts then it might require attention.


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koahiatamadl
Thursday, July 7, 2011, 7:15am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Part of the problem may well be that her normal school day routine is not there during the summer.  So her sleep rhythm is all over the place.  Which is fine.  Unless she's getting stressed about it just leave her to it.  If she's been up all night she'll sleep at some point during the day - she won't get sleep deprived unless she has to be somewhere in the morning.  
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Andrea AWsec
Thursday, July 7, 2011, 11:20am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Some sleep stuff is hormonal, I find that I have a hard time during my cycle.

Fem balance is great stuff.

Someone told me that if women took the fem balance starting around age 35 they would not have menopausal symptoms.   I know your daughter is young but she may benefit from the balancing that it would bring to her body.



MIFHI

"Do not try to satisfy your vanity by teaching a great many things. Awaken people's curiosity. It is enough to open minds; do not overload them." Anatole France

"Healthy people have the least overt symptoms from eating avoid foods." Dr. D'Adamo
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jeanb
Thursday, July 7, 2011, 11:57am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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My kids don't have sleeping issues even though I have a 15 year old and 20 year old.  The 20 year old  told me the other day that he just gets up at 6 with no alarm, some of his friends can't do that and are always in trouble at work and school.  The 15 year old gets up at 7 winter and 8:30 in the summer.

I have never let my kids circadian rhythms get shifted.  Even when they were babies, I would have them out of bed by 6 am, fed and bathed and in the car ready to go to work by 7 (Both of them came to work with me when they were babies to toddler age). Both kids were/are active in sports so the weekends are not for sleeping in, we are usually on the road by 7 am.

I have noticed that when kids come over whose rhythms are shifted or they are not great sleepers, it takes them about 48 hours to shift back to a regular cycle.  I also don't let them sleep with cell phones, computers, games or even books.  Everything in the house gets turned off.  Like Goldie, I make them go to bed around 9 or 10, usually the first night is the restless night (we also eat before 6 and no snacks after 6).  I get them out of bed by seven and get them moving, no lying down during the day or after supper.  The second night is the night they usually crash at 9 and then they naturally get up at 7 the next day.


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ruthiegirl
Thursday, July 7, 2011, 5:58pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from koahiatamadl
Part of the problem may well be that her normal school day routine is not there during the summer.  So her sleep rhythm is all over the place.  Which is fine.  Unless she's getting stressed about it just leave her to it.  If she's been up all night she'll sleep at some point during the day - she won't get sleep deprived unless she has to be somewhere in the morning.  


Things were a lot worse before school ended. She had the same problem falling asleep, but then had to get up in the mornings. If she had a busy weekend, and couldn't catch up on sleep then, she'd be a mess the entire next week. This isn't only a summer/no schedule problem. It's not as bad now because she can sleep until 2:00 PM if she has to

It is a problem for her, because she sleeps all morning and early afternoon, then is bored in the evenings/nighttime when she can't sleep but there's nothing to do and no place to go. It's also causing stress when I want to go somewhere as a family, but she's not up in time to get anywhere (such as the beach before the lifeguards go off duty.)


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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brinyskysail
Thursday, July 7, 2011, 6:08pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Have you tried making her get up in the morning even if she has been awake late.  Enough of that in a row, and she might get tired enough to go to sleep early.  I do that to myself anytime I have trouble falling asleep or start staying up too late.


There is a good in every bad  
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ruthiegirl
Thursday, July 7, 2011, 6:24pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from brinyskysail
Have you tried making her get up in the morning even if she has been awake late.  Enough of that in a row, and she might get tired enough to go to sleep early.  I do that to myself anytime I have trouble falling asleep or start staying up too late.


Yes, I have. Sometimes it's effective (if there's something "worth getting up for") but it has zero effect on what time she falls asleep the next night. Even if I do that several mornings in a row, she'll end up sleep deprived rather than getting on a better sleep schedule. The last  couple of months of school, she got up on time for school each day  but still couldn't fall asleep easily at night.

It's bothering her. She WANTS to be able to fall asleep when it's late and she's tired and there's nothing to do because the rest of the house is asleep and it's too late to go anywhere. She WANTS to be able to go to bed early enough to not be a "zombie" on school days, or to be able to "get a good night's sleep" before an important test.


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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PCUK-Positive
Thursday, July 7, 2011, 6:30pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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assuming it none of the obvious teenage things perhaps it may be an idea to look at a mild underlying heath issue like leaky gut, low absorption, inflammatory bowel diseases, hyperacidity.

the nail issue may be significant, either regarding nerves or malabsorbtion issues albeit mild.

she may have a mild bug that is just taking the egde off things depression is a funny old thing. perhaps a good old fashioned girlie day for mum and daughter would be a good idea to get things relaxed and perhaps find out if anything is bothering her. although obviously no pressure should be surprised - don't mean to teach a duck to lay eggs of course.

other things that could be an issue are mould, allergies, down right bone idleness is always possible, I'm guilty of that myself at times. but i think being busy and having lots to do and many Friends is the best cure for most things at that age. bon chance oxo


Kind Regards PC. FIfHI Swami III Pro

Partner (F) is O+(Non) MN. Duffy Fy(a+b+),  Lewis (a+ b-) Gatherer.
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PCUK-Positive
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you mentioned that it is not as bad on days that she exercises, perhaps she just needs to expend more energy and get more tired from physical exertion. again don't mean to state the obvious. oxo


Kind Regards PC. FIfHI Swami III Pro

Partner (F) is O+(Non) MN. Duffy Fy(a+b+),  Lewis (a+ b-) Gatherer.
DD ( is O+(Non)NN, Duffy Fy(a+b-) Lewis (a+b-) Gatherer
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Kyosha Nim
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Natural remedies for nail health (not BT related- so adjust accordingly)
•Slippery elm powder before meals helps improve mineral absorption in the small intestines
•Herbs which may assist in improving the appearance of the nails are: Gotu Kola, Horestail and Oats
•B Vitamins, Choline, Inositol and Biotin are all essential nutrients to improve the quality and appearance of the hair, skin and nails
•The minerals Zinc, Calcium, Silica and Iron form the building blocks for hair skin and nails
•Essential fatty acids
•Amino acids (proteins) - Cysteine, Methionine and Taurine


Kind Regards PC. FIfHI Swami III Pro

Partner (F) is O+(Non) MN. Duffy Fy(a+b+),  Lewis (a+ b-) Gatherer.
DD ( is O+(Non)NN, Duffy Fy(a+b-) Lewis (a+b-) Gatherer
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PCUK-Positive
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Kyosha Nim
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does she get very hot during the day when exerting herself in  which case it could be sugar/ fodmap related


Kind Regards PC. FIfHI Swami III Pro

Partner (F) is O+(Non) MN. Duffy Fy(a+b+),  Lewis (a+ b-) Gatherer.
DD ( is O+(Non)NN, Duffy Fy(a+b-) Lewis (a+b-) Gatherer
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Kyosha Nim
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n alternative view just for info on many things to expand your research even Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder -- How can these symptoms be related to sleep?


http://www.healthyresources.com/sleep/magazines/sleepwell/teens.html

Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome.
This is really an exaggeration of the natural tendency with the onset of puberty for the sleep-on clock to be set late. In this case, "late" can mean that a youngster finds it difficult to get to sleep before 2 or 3 in the morning. Obviously, this same person will be very difficult to wake up for school, and will want to sleep in on week-ends.

If the late-to-bed/late-to-rise pattern really is part of this syndrome rather than "just teenage" behaviour, it is well to know this. Treatment involves either the use of special bright lights, or an interesting rotation of bedtimes for a couple of weeks. The intent of treatment is to re-set the biological clock to a timing more compatible with the youngster's life.


Kind Regards PC. FIfHI Swami III Pro

Partner (F) is O+(Non) MN. Duffy Fy(a+b+),  Lewis (a+ b-) Gatherer.
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brinyskysail
Thursday, July 7, 2011, 6:46pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from ruthiegirl


Yes, I have. Sometimes it's effective (if there's something "worth getting up for") but it has zero effect on what time she falls asleep the next night. Even if I do that several mornings in a row, she'll end up sleep deprived rather than getting on a better sleep schedule. The last  couple of months of school, she got up on time for school each day  but still couldn't fall asleep easily at night.

It's bothering her. She WANTS to be able to fall asleep when it's late and she's tired and there's nothing to do because the rest of the house is asleep and it's too late to go anywhere. She WANTS to be able to go to bed early enough to not be a "zombie" on school days, or to be able to "get a good night's sleep" before an important test.


I understand her frustration - I went through the same thing starting in late elementary and lasting through high school.  I didn't get a good night's sleep for about 8 years straight (sorry, not trying to scare you).  For me I think it was psychological.  Ever since I was very young I have been concerned about what I would do with my life; it was constantly on my mind.  Sometimes I know that's what was keeping me awake because I was directly thinking about it, but I have a feeling it was subconsciously keeping me awake other times.  After my first year of college when I had a set plan and was very pleased with and excited about what I was doing, all the sleeping problems stopped.  I never had to lie awake thinking about it anymore.  Even at the time I had somewhat connected it to the lack of sleep, but, looking back, it's very obvious.  My aunt has the same problem - not being able to sleep because her mind wanders and keeps her up.  It may not be the answer, but perhaps something is bothering your daughter, even if she doesn't realize it.  My problem started when I was only in 5th grade, and I didn't get it at the time; it took me awhile to figure out what was keeping me awake, but even after figuring it out I never spoke to anyone about it so it wasn't laid to rest until it played itself out 8 years later.


There is a good in every bad  
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koahiatamadl
Thursday, July 7, 2011, 6:58pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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If it is a problem for you all I'd start with good sleep hygiene  http://www.umm.edu/sleep/sleep_hyg.htm.  It's all about good habits that are conducive to good sleep so it's free and changes can be implemented easily and she is in charge of the process  
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nowishow
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I had a lot of trouble sleeping for a while due to Lyme disease and low seratonin levels. I used 5HTP. It seemed to help me. You can read about it here:


http://www.painstresscenter.com/mall/5htp.html

http://www.painstresscenter.com/mall/Teenlink.html


"Anxiety is the gap between now and then"

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ruthiegirl
Thursday, July 7, 2011, 7:22pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Thanks for the links PC. I wish the link gave more info on "delayed sleep phase syndrome" because that does sound like what she has. I know it's not sleep apnea because we share a bedroom- I'd know if she snored!!

Quoted Text
Get into your favorite sleeping position. If you don't fall asleep within 15-30 minutes, get up, go into another room, and read until sleepy.
She does this. The other night she got up and read for a few hours because she couldn't fall asleep!!! She was literally awake for over 24 hours straight, then "napped" for about 8 hours in the afternoon, got up for a snack, and went back to bed. Now she's back to her "usual pattern" and got up at 2:00 PM.  


Ruth, Single Mother to 19yo   O- Leah , 18yo O- Hannah, and  12yo B+ Jack


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Goldie
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1. I would say the following.. IF she went to over seas and had a 6 hour delay she would be ok.. BUT I bet she would just change and go to sleep late again..

IT is something induced by her, a kind of anxiety.. a kind of food eaten at night maybe turn the food on its head..

milk and cookies.. and then lights out.. (truth I rarely fall asleep without TV that shuts off 40 minutes later.)

Get some somatic CD's and listen to birdsong or ocean waves, water gurgling..

and go someplace to learn meditation..

no stimulating books.. even though I like reading.. but not blood and gore..

Does she keep busy in her brain and stimulated during the day.. then maybe stop stimulating earlier in the evening..

again- learn to crochet.. IT gives time to think .. let her write in a journal what she wishes.. no rules.. just unload..

a warm water bottle might add comfort.. or on icepack in summer..

a chiro visit might be a good idea..

getting some Ligaplexll from the chiro would make a difference.. read more about my link -- on Manganese.. It helps me .. it helps in day time as well as taking it before bed.. (natural by Standard Process and taste is ok.. ..

putting on eye shades is another ..

if she likes heavy comforter to bundle with then add weight.. if the opposite the remove.. lavender eyepads or a lavender pillow is rest inducing..

TURNING ON A BRIGHT light shining on her face from 6 to 9 am might help to get the morning awareness moving in the brain.. she does not need to be awake when you turn it on.. the body will absorb the light even while sleeping.. or if she has morning light in her room then open the shades early.. but in the evening make sure that she is in complete darkness..

Might she have experienced some fearful thing in her life that interferes even while she is not aware.. journaling will help..

Now with all the ideas one must surly help.. chocolate and banana.. yammm

TRY the Ligaplex ll.. as many as 3 before sleep.. is no problem.. all the best..


Being here is invaluable, but not enough. We need ALL the Doctors. I needed them for a very small cancer spot-I could never feel!!! Please do your mammograms! Doing so saved me from cancer later on. I am grateful! Thanks for learning from my experience! I was lucky! I wish the same for YOU!
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stephanieelise
Sunday, July 17, 2011, 5:33am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I have had these problems in the past -

Perhaps try
(1) - chammomile tea - strong !!!
(2) - no computer/lights etc 15 minutes before bed
(3) - no stimulants at all including sodas, sugar etc.
(4) - no eating before bed
(5) - try to eat dinner ~ 2-3 hours before bed time
(6) - Milk thistle for liver support may have helped me ... I took therapeutic doses.
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stephanieelise
Sunday, July 17, 2011, 5:39am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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oh yes, and routine routine routine !!! Everyday I pretty much have the same schedule
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Drea
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Ruthiegirl, have you tried the white chestnut bach flower remedy with her? That stuff is amazing. I also used the Rescue Sleep for a couple of weeks to reset my sleep schedule (haven't needed it in months!).


It is not my responsibility to convince anyone of anything.
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