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Mind-Body Connection in Bipolar Disorder  This thread currently has 6,693 views. Print Print Thread
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Amazone I.
Friday, June 3, 2011, 9:06pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Goldie... great testimonial   


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Patty H
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I agree, Goldie!  Thanks for sharing that.  


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honeybee
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Quoted from TJ
Does anyone have any thoughts on how bipolar disorder could be related to postural control?


Has everyone reading this attempted to stand on one leg, eyes closed?

It is really quite difficult - 3 out of 3 people I asked could not really do it. Certainly not elegantly!
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TJ
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Quoted from honeybee
Has everyone reading this attempted to stand on one leg, eyes closed?

It is really quite difficult - 3 out of 3 people I asked could not really do it. Certainly not elegantly!
Maybe they all have bipolar disorder...
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AKArtlover
Saturday, June 4, 2011, 1:26am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I just improved it on two attempts. Looks like I healed myself! lol. You know I'm messing. It seems that it was more difficult with eyes closed, but it was really mainly a weight balance thing and adjusting my leg position helped.

That was fun honeybee.


"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well." Psalm 139:13,14
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TJ
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I have a hard enough time standing on both feet when my eyes are closed.
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TJ
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Or, heaven help me, if should I be walking along and decide to look up or over my shoulder.
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Symbi
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No doubt it is a real condition, there have been malancholic moody types since way back.  Artistic types are often bipolar (artistic temperament) have been documented in popular books and plays since the Greeks.  It has been around much longer than medications.  Medical knowledge of the brain is in its infancy.  Acknowledging it's a real condition doesn't mean you have to embrace the current medical treatments.

I love the idea, instead of monitoring moods or seeing how you react to medications (often diagnosed after you get manic on antidepressants) they could check your postural control to see how certain parts of your brain are working - now that's thinkin'!

Didn't have time to read the whole thread.  Being open minded types, open to nutrition and vitamins, thought you may be interested in these theories mainstays of orthomolecular psychology.  No doubt there are changes to the brain made by mental conditions but diet and supplements can help:
  • pyroluria low levels of zinc, B6 and arachidonic acid (an omega-6 fat) (aka porphyria - real medical condition I suspect nonnies prone to it, one cause stress or heavy metal toxicity),
  • histapenia Depressed folate, B3, B12 and excess copper (lack of histamine - histamine is increased by folate),
  • histadelia Depressed calcium, methionine, B6 and excess folic acid (recognised medical condition histaminosis due to lack of copper containing DAO enzyme to break down histamine in gut and brain)
  • as well as allergies, hypoglycemia, metal toxicities and more

Here's a summary chart: http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/content/condition.php?condition=Schizophrenia .  Lots of, sometimes dodgy information around the net talking about over and under methylation - that is one explanation but may not be all of it (DAO for instance).

Do you know that antidepressant effect was discovered as a side effect of anti-histamines?  They noticed they helped depression and then had to figure out why after that.  Having too much histamine decreases neurotransmitter release.  During an allergic reaction histamine is released.  How many mental problems are caused by allergies?  


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Symbi  -  Saturday, June 4, 2011, 3:24am
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Symbi
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I think bipolars switch from histapenia (low histamine) to histadelia (high histamine).  I do, though they have classified me borderline - more when I was younger.  It helps to have awareness and know which supplements and foods to eat.  I get really angry, restless and feel more pain (histadelia - common in fibromyalgia and autoimmune conditions) if I have systemic inflammation or if I eat leftovers more than 24 hours old, especially meat or fermented food - which makes histamines over time!  

Some foods and additives release histamines (if there are some stored) (egg whites, shellfish, strawberries, tomatoes, fish, chocolate, pineapple and alcohol).  Notice those foods are the common allergen foods?  It's important to me when my oral lichen planus (chronic condition increases mast cells) is bad and I know I must avoid those foods (add msg from tamari to the mix).  Histamine hurts and inflames my mouth!  One idea of a low histamine diet: http://www.urticaria.thunderworksinc.com/pages/lowhistamine.htm

Note the explorer diet is low in amines.  Perhaps it's to do with acetylation again.  Slow acetylators (most explorers) can't break down amines as well.  We are prone to dna damage leading to bladder cancer if exposed to aromatic amines.  So we probably have trouble breaking down histamine as well.

Note that omega 3 is not good for all kinds of depression.  If you have pyroluria you need more GLA (a good omega 6) because your body doesn't make enough zinc containing Delta-6-saturase to convert from lower omega 6s. The GLA also helps PMS symptoms.  I've gone from 2/4 weeks breast tenderness and bloating to fine!  Also been taking zinc for over a year (25mg/d) and got my serum levels checked still in the bottom half of the range.
(I haven't had the kryptopyrole or KPU test but from taking the vitamins I know the pyroluria glove fits me!  as well as histadelia sometimes.)

There are studies showing benefits of omega 6s for depression too.  Some people need more omega 3 and some more GLA.  Wanted to share some of this for a while, hope you all don't mind this essay!


INFJ ex-Ghee Whiz, GTD Explorer Sept_09 - SWAMI Mar_10

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Symbi
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Oh dear, now I've read the thread and realised I wasn't exactly on topic - sorry TJ!


INFJ ex-Ghee Whiz, GTD Explorer Sept_09 - SWAMI Mar_10

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brinyskysail
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Quoted from Symbi
Oh dear, now I've read the thread and realised I wasn't exactly on topic - sorry TJ!


I found it all very interesting   If you have the info, may as well share it


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AKArtlover
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Thanks Symbi, interesting stuff.  


"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well." Psalm 139:13,14
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Goldie
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Symbi... great info even for general background.. what tests do you do to know ?? or to confirm what you know?


Being here is invaluable, but not enough. We need ALL the Doctors. I needed them for a very small cancer spot-I could never feel!!! Please do your mammograms! Doing so saved me from cancer later on. I am grateful! Thanks for learning from my experience! I was lucky! I wish the same for YOU!
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TJ
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My amine sensitivity and migraines went away once I quit grains.  I think the amines were getting into circulation before they were fully digested.
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Symbi
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Glad you all enjoyed and everyone's so open minded!

The cheap way to tell is to try the supplements and see how they affect you (with Dr supervision of course!).  For me I know the GLA from evening primrose oil is helping, breast tenderness is way better, less bloating, PMS and my skin finally feels hydrated and supple, also less dry mouth.  Mood much steadier and clearer thinking like a fog has been lifted.  Fish oil made me feel agitated and increases my tinnitus, now I take it only every fourth day to counteract possibly omega 6 inflammation.
For B6 - when I started remembering dreams again.  For zinc - the white specks on fingernails went away and my sense of smell stayed constant.  Not really sure if I have too much or too little histamine - seem to swing from one to the other a bit.  You KNOW when you're histadelic!  Interesting pyrolurics prone to adrenal fatigue (tick) and I fit the symptoms even the pale skin.

Or I know in Australia a naturopath can order a blood test of whole histamine, or a urine test for HPU, Kryptopyroles (Mauve factor), should be even easier in USA!  (I read you need to add vitamin c to preserve the urine specimen and cease zinc and b vitamins beforehand.)

Some online reading:

Signs, symptoms & indicators of Histadelia (Histamine High): http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C447056.html
Pyroluria: http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C372380.html
Histapenia (Histamine Low) Overview: http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C376825.html

Commentary on Nutritional Treatment
of Mental Disorders article
from Willam Walsh, Ph.D., Senior Scientist, (formerly of Health Research Institute & Pfeiffer Treatment Center, now Director of Walsh Research Institute) http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walsh.htm#AD

Here's lots of info on histadelia: http://forum.lowcarber.org/archive/index.php/t-64775

Pyroluria / HPU:
http://www.hputest.nl/ewhat.htm
http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/content/articles-content.php?heading=Pyroluria

Histamine intolerance (I really started reading about this in relation to migraines - this knowledge has reduced mine considerably along with Mg) Still eat some foods that cause headaches - but need the antioxidants like the raspberries for breakfast are kicking in now!  Glad your headaches are better TJ
http://autoimmunethyroid.wordpress.com/2008/04/27/histamine-intolerance-review/
http://www.ajcn.org/content/85/5/1185.full

Clinics:

In USA and worldwide: see here big list of clinics and great site full of resources: http://www.orthomolecular.org/resources/centers.shtml

In Australia: Bio-balance Health http://www.biobalance.org.au/

Books:

There's a book called "depression free naturally by Joan Mathews Larson, Ph.D. " and lots of info here: http://www.joanmathewslarson.com/HRC_2006/Depression_06/DepressionFree_TheBook.htm (haven't read it myself)

Another book "natural healing for bipolar disorder" http://naturalhealingforbipola.....re-on-pyroluria.html (haven't read it myself)

Enjoy!


INFJ ex-Ghee Whiz, GTD Explorer Sept_09 - SWAMI Mar_10

Family - O+ DH and DD (both hunter-ish)
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deblynn3
Sunday, June 5, 2011, 2:57am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from honeybee


Has everyone reading this attempted to stand on one leg, eyes closed?

It is really quite difficult - 3 out of 3 people I asked could not really do it. Certainly not elegantly!


I did and can, both left and right.


Swami, 100% me..
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TJ
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Quoted from Symbi
The cheap way to tell is to try the supplements and see how they affect you (with Dr supervision of course!)....

For B6 - when I started remembering dreams again....  Interesting pyrolurics prone to adrenal fatigue (tick) and I fit the symptoms even the pale skin....

Some online reading:

...Pyroluria: http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C372380.html
I went over this page on Pyroluria and some others this morning (a more thorough reading than what I looked at last night).  I can relate to this: poor stress tolerance, anxiety, depression, pale-ish skin, poor dream recall, joint stiffness/pain, light exertion fatigue, light and noise sensitivity, and everything getting worse under moderate stress (poor stress tolerance).  This may be a part of it for me.

I just started supplementing with zinc again.  I guess I need to add B6, too.  Thanks for sharing those links!

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TJ
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Oh wait, I haven't started the zinc yet -- other than what's in my multi.  I have zinc coming in my Vitamin Shoppe order that's supposed to arrive tomorrow.
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TJ
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Here's an interesting post about pyroluria on another health forum:

pyroluria supps...my experience...it's WORKING !!!

My supps came today (including the zinc, 50 mg), and I went out and bought a small bottle of B6 (200 mg).  The order also included a bottle of caprylic acid for candida, and glucosamine sulfate for joint health and detox support.
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brinyskysail
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I saw this and figured it might be relevant to you, TJ - I know I have trouble with absorbing supplements

Quoted Text
Recovering and controlling the pyroluria is not just a matter of taking B6 and zinc. The deficiency of these two nutrients lead to many secondary deficiencies such as manganese that will also need to be addressed. The encouraging thing about pyroluria is that the typical patient sees a great improvement within 24-72 hours, though it may take 3-6 months to reach a consistently stable level. Because of the varying presentations and severities of pyroluria, each person does best with a treatment plan specifically tailored to him. In my practice, this includes not just B6 and zinc, but classical homeopathy, herbs and diet to address the condition more comprehensively. Having a practitioner monitor this plan treatment to recognize symptoms over or under-dosing is essential.

Part of the pyroluria picture is less-than-optimal digestive health. If the person has had pyroluria for long enough or it's particularly severe, he may not be able to absorb B6 and other nutrients that are necessary through pills. These people take massive amounts of pills daily and don't see an improvement. I routinely offer injections to start the treatment process or prescribe a high quality liquid form of active B6 for the patient to pick up at the local pharmacy. In addition, I help the patient improve the health of their intestines so they can eventually absorb B6 and zinc through pills.


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TJ
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Thanks for that heads-up.  It will be a few more months before I can afford to see a practitioner...assuming I can find one around here!
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brinyskysail
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Quoted from TJ
Thanks for that heads-up.  It will be a few more months before I can afford to see a practitioner...assuming I can find one around here!


I understand that

Since you just got more supplements, I thought it was a good reminder for determining if you're absorbing supplements.  I completely gave up on some things I was taking because I don't think I was absorbing them, and it's too expensive to take them for nothing.  It also makes it difficult because if you don't absorb them you get no effect from them and then the question arises of whether you don't need it or whether you need it and just aren't absorbing it.  confusion


There is a good in every bad  
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Symbi
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Hey I'm really glad it might help you!  A friend told me about her kryptopyrrole test and how she's together on her supplements and schizophrenia runs in her family, I'm so grateful to her.  I have depression in my family and suspecting now we all have symptoms of this.

I was totally stabbing in the dark when I said that low and high histamine cycling might cause bipolar.  When I was getting those last links together I saw lots of info that bipolar and pyroluria are often found together (try and google those two words TJ!).  

Note that zinc is recommended for all nonnies by Dr D, and we often have depression/low serotonin which B6 can help.  So I really wonder if Porphyria (the medical condition related to pyroluria) is a nonnie - explorer tendency with stress and modern pollution.  I've read that it can be caused by heavy metal toxicity.  Hoping amalgum removal will help my condition.  Explorers and porphyhrics/pyrolurics/warewolves (check that out warewolves and porphyria   ) all have lower levels of p450 enzymes from what I understand.  Porphyria is not well known but may be soon through genetic testing probably widespread.

Thanks for the link. Been reading up on it for many months now and it's interesting many views about it some of them conflicting though they all agree zinc, b6 plus GLA in differing amounts.  You may need to get some Evening Primrose oil, or borage oil - even higher in GLA (but I read that it has a alkaline that can cause liver damage so choose pyrrolizidine alkaloid free supplements).

I took zinc for many years now (started at 50 now down to 25mg a day before bed) and b6 200mg broken into two one with breakfast and lunch.  Also take high dose multi B with breakfast among others.  (Some people say they can take some P-5-P or both and others can't and take B6 only.  I've only done B6 so far.) It all really started working when I stopped taking fish oil every day and doubled my EPO to 6 capsules a day, adding fish oil every fourth day.  Info here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040613/msgs/358711.html

You can get serum zinc levels tested at your doctor.  I also read somewhere that Serum alkaline phosphatase (usually lower in nonnies just like it is in the gut)  correlates with zinc levels.  It is part of liver function tests so you can guess from that.  As have lower levels and O high levels too, I think Bs should be in the middle. Do you know?

About B6 conversion to active form I make sure I take the cofactors too: magnesium (oh yeah common topic is back) and Zinc and B2 and vitamin A I read somewhere, sorry can't find.  (think I gave you enough reading  ) Just found out I'm low in Vitamin A so back on those supplements and started feeling better already.  Had lost libido and was getting more depressed, having bad nightmares for a while there.

BTW there are lists of drugs that are safe to take if you have porphyria and prozac and mirtrazapine are two of the only antidepressants that aren't porphyric.  

Here's an interesting link about detox issues and sulphation you may like mate: http://www.salicylatesensitivity.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=697  Enjoy!


INFJ ex-Ghee Whiz, GTD Explorer Sept_09 - SWAMI Mar_10

Family - O+ DH and DD (both hunter-ish)
IBS, Fibro, Hashimotos, Adenomyosis, Oral Lichen Planus, Breast Cancer, Terminal case of Optimism
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Symbi
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Here's a link about conversion to P-5-P - celiacs don't do it as well. http://books.google.com.au/boo.....ge&q&f=false

Keep reading in all these things about eating more carbs or protein or what.  I'm following Dr D on that regard!


INFJ ex-Ghee Whiz, GTD Explorer Sept_09 - SWAMI Mar_10

Family - O+ DH and DD (both hunter-ish)
IBS, Fibro, Hashimotos, Adenomyosis, Oral Lichen Planus, Breast Cancer, Terminal case of Optimism
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It might be helpful for people in the future to start a new thread just for pyroluria and repost the info from this thread.  There is a lot of good info (Thanks, Symbi ) so it would be a shame if peope missed out on it because they were looking in the wrong place.  It's also good to have the info here, though, since you're connecting it to bipolar and this thread mentions bipolar in the title.  Anyway, a thought...


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