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Patty Lee
Thursday, January 19, 2006, 4:19am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Ee Dan
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Has anyone tried progesterone cream for this issue?  Especially if estrogen dominance is a problem.  I think a hormone test would be best...but I found progesterone cream made Randy emerge, if you know what I mean....I started Vitex/chasteberry, which tended to balance all this out for me (and since it has a progesterone effect, apparently, that would explain it--see Vitex/chasteberry thread under SUPP RIGHT).


(formerly plhartless).

"One cannot think well, love well, sleep well, if one has not dined well."
--Virginia Woolf
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Carol the Dabbler
Thursday, January 19, 2006, 4:49am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Victoria

One thing I know is that Progesterone levels have to be checked by saliva, because the blood test doesn't work for that one.  Naturopaths generally prefer the saliva test, and only one Naturopath I've known, preferred the urine test.  
So I think if you have to get the saliva test anyway to check Prog. level, you may as well have all the hormones checked as well.  Great Smoky Mountains Labs does the test and it's not usually covered by insurance.


Quoted from plhartless

Has anyone tried progesterone cream for this issue?  Especially if estrogen dominance is a problem.  I think a hormone test would be best...but I found progesterone cream made Randy emerge, if you know what I mean.


Yes, progesterone!  Fortunately, it's one of the less-tricky hormones.  In fact, it's not even really a "female" hormone -- it's a precursor (raw material) to most of the male hormones as well as other female hormones and even some non-sex-related ones (such as from the adrenal cortex, I think).

It's generally considered quite safe to use in normal amounts (even if it turns out that you really didn't need it), so you can either get the test done first (see Victoria's quote above) or you can just buy a tube of natural progesterone cream at the health-food store and see if it helps -- but be sure to give it several months, since it's sort of a cumulative effect.

Please note that the "progesterone" that most doctors prescribe is not the same as what your body makes.  It's a similar molecule, but sufficiently different to be much stronger and to cause side effects.  The natural progesterone cream that's sold in health-food stores, even though it has been synthesized from soybeans, is the same identical molecule that your body makes.

The original brand, which I use, is called Pro-Gest, but there are other good brands out there as well.  Just be sure to read the label or the package insert, to get the proper usage directions for your particular phase of life (child-bearing, pre-menopause, or post-menopause).

This wonderful elixer brought me from back from being a near-invalid.




Carol

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Carol_the_Dabbler  -  Thursday, January 19, 2006, 4:51am
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carmen
Thursday, January 19, 2006, 8:10am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Had been using wild yam cream (progesterone support) on and off for years. I'm glad if it doesn't hurt if not needed as not sure which hormones out of bal. Waiting on blood test done yesterday to check levels of whatever. The yam cream sorted out hot flushes I had years ago. Really hopeless at taking on some days of cycle & stopping (as label says) so I either use every day for months, or not at all!
Don't think it made any diff to libido (haven't seen that for years....)
I am 48 and still monthly cycling. Stopped minipill (20+ yrs of use) mid last year so probably stuffed things well and proper a long time back. So many body issues are inter-related e.g. borderline low thryoid/hormone imbal/bad circulation/unfit & overweight/oversensitive skin & liver gradually clogging up. Too many years of doing what we thought was sortof healthy, but not btd! Guess it will take years to win back lost ground, but it's all good info here on the forum to help that.

carmen




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Victoria
Thursday, January 19, 2006, 4:38pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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After years of using the various transdermal creams from the HFS, I switched to vit E based Prog. because I got tired of rubbing chemicals from the creams into my skin.  I would never use cosmetic skin care products that contain the stuff they make those Progesterone creams with, so why do they expect us to not care what they put in the hormone creams.. ??

Here's a link to one source for Ray Peat's Progesterone in pure Vit E oil.  It is most effective rubbed on the gums or inside the lips.  It is able to bypass the liver and the digestive process and is absorbed right into the blood. It's many times more concentrated than the cream, so you may need only one to 5 drops once a day.

Remember:  Use it in cycles just like your normal cycle works.  Not meant for daily uninterrupted use.

You can web shop for different prices and specials, and most offer free shipping on orders totaling $75 or more.  You shouldn't have to pay more than $21 to $25 per bottle.

http://www.vitaminexpress.com/prodinfo/KNprogst.htm



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Victoria
Thursday, January 19, 2006, 4:49pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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One word of caution about progesterone use.  Because it is so readily available without prescription, it's possible to over-use it.  It is stored in the fat of the body, and builds up.  Sometimes women will notice a tremendous improvement when they begin to use it, and believe that if a little is good, then more is better.  After a few months, they may begin to have less energy, and tend toward depression, and there are some other symptoms which I can't remember.  It is a kind and wonderful hormone, but if it is out of balance, it can disrupt the overall hormone balance.  
I recommend getting hormone levels checked.  If you haven't started on hormone supplementation, even bioidentical ones, it's good to find out where you are starting from and then get re-tested about once a year to make sure you are on track.

Remember Progesterone does not test well with blood work.  It needs saliva testing.



Normal day, let me be aware of the treasure you are.
Let me not pass you by in quest
of some rare and perfect tomorrow.
~Mary Jean Irion
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ISA-MANUELA
Thursday, January 19, 2006, 8:34pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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or some little bip-bip of the Vega-testings  
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Cheryl_O_Blogger
Thursday, January 19, 2006, 9:26pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Victoria
Has anyone seen it yet???  !!


I have it.  I especially like the very positive way it treats Menopause.  As I read it, he really discourages even the bioidentical hormones unless absolutely necessary.  I had intended to ask about them, but decided against it.   I think sleep problems were my biggest perimenopause symptom and with BTD and some behavioral approaches that is under control.  I may be having the mildest of hot flashes, but not enough to warrant hormones.  I also have no libido, but consider that a plus right now so don't want to fix it.  I was pleased that my doctor also discourages any drug therapy for menopause, but his main concern was cost (about a dollar a day).  I didn't even ask what he would have prescribed.


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Carol the Dabbler
Thursday, January 19, 2006, 9:28pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Carmen -- Wild yam cream is promoted as a progesterone supplement, but (unless they add progesterone) it does not actually contain any.  Apparently it stimulates some people's bodies to produce more, but in other people it has no such effect.  I've always used the actual progesterone cream.

Victoria -- the E-oil with progesterone sounds interesting.  I'm doing fine on the cream, but will definitely keep that in mind.

One reason that any progesterone supplement can "stop working" after a while is that one's receptors (the places where the body actually absorbs the stuff) get bored or something and stop taking it in.  I had read conflicting advice regarding whether that monthly break was really necessary, and used progesterone straight through without a break for a couple of years.  Believe me, that little "vacation" makes a huge difference!  (At least, it did for me.)  So yes, be sure to discontinue using any progesterone for a few days each month.

Also, as I mentioned, do give the progesterone a few months to build up in your tissues before you decide that you're not using enough.  A little too much is not likely to cause problems, but it's a waste of money.  And my nutritionist says that 'way too much of anything tends to cause the same symptoms as not nearly enough of it.  So proceed with a reasonable amount of caution, but don't worry yourself sick either.


Carol

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Elizabeth
Thursday, January 19, 2006, 10:33pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Progesterone also feeds candida, so one can end up "taking a break" without planning in order to balance a candida problem--and learn a lot along the way.  Yes, there is a lot still there in the tissue, and as I lost weight, I still felt both hormones were kicking in.  Am planning to test (saliva) now that candida is under control, and go from there.  (Using tiny amount on skin rough spots, but not anywhere near a recommended dose.)  Also think 2 weeks out of the month likely to be better than three.  What do I worry about? It seems to me that when my hormones fluctuate, I get more of those little red spots (cherry or senile hemangiomas).  Anyone else notice that?  Also, fyi, sarsaparilla can up the testosterone--but not necessarily related to libido.  
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Victoria
Friday, January 20, 2006, 2:18am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Cheryl,
I can't wait to get a copy of the book.  One thing about peri-menopause is that it ends.  
Genuine menopause is a different puppy altogether!  My peri lasted for a decade, or so it seemed. All herbs and flax and efa's and a little progesterone cream took care of everything until a couple of years after my last period.  Then I began to have different symptoms than I was able to manage.  I'm still using only the most minimal of assistance from hormones.  3 drops of Progest/vit E. oil 2 x week on my gums, and vit E. oil/estriol on another delicate body area, also
2 x week.
In another month or so, it will be a year since my last hormone saliva test, and I'll see how I'm doing with that.



Normal day, let me be aware of the treasure you are.
Let me not pass you by in quest
of some rare and perfect tomorrow.
~Mary Jean Irion
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Carol the Dabbler
Friday, January 20, 2006, 2:43am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Elizabeth

Also think 2 weeks out of the month likely to be better than three.
****
It seems to me that when my hormones fluctuate, I get more of those little red spots (cherry or senile hemangiomas).  Anyone else notice that?


I use the progesterone cream all but 3-to-7 days per month, but I'm post-menopausal.  The recommendations depend on what stage of life you're at.  Then of course, there's what works for you.

I had never heard them called hemangiomas, and I'm not sure what I would correlate them with, but I have gotten some lately, along with a whole bunch of extra-teeny little brown moles, all on my lower chest and abdomen, mostly on the right side.  Here's what the hemangiomas look like, in case anyone else never heard of them:
http://www.celibre.com/cherrymoreinfo.aspx


Carol

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Patty Lee
Friday, January 20, 2006, 3:43am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Huh!--didn't know that's what they were called, or that they were associated with aging.  My mom called them strawberry spots, or strawberry moles.  When my best friend noticed one when we were still in our 20s, he was thinking about but scared to go to the dermatologist, thinking it was cancerous! Thanks for the dermatology lesson!

I used progesterone cream (from the HFS, NOT wild yam) for a while but stopped because I hadn't had a hormone test and was having symptoms mimicking estrogen dominance--which can sometimes happen when one is first taking it, and will go away, but I didn't know that then.  I just didn't wait it out.  It was clearly working, though. My libido rocketed at the start. I decided I would switch to Vitex for a while and that was all I need--but I'm 37, and not sure I'm actually perimenopausal.  Vitex has been very effective for me, but I expect I'll use progesterone at some point down the road.


(formerly plhartless).

"One cannot think well, love well, sleep well, if one has not dined well."
--Virginia Woolf
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dawgmama
Friday, January 20, 2006, 4:16pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I just read, sorry I don't recall where, that Vitamin C can help increase libido. I'm post-menopausal, according to the blood work(3 months to go to get to the 1 year mark of no periods ). I've up my vitamin C intake, and yep, it may be helping.

In additon to any creams or vitamins, don't forget to be relaxed! A busy mind is a sure "desire-dampener"! Sometimes a nice hand or foot rub from your sweetie does the trick. Maybe because it makes you feel loved!!


"Be as gentle as  possible, and as firm as necessary".   Tom Dorrance-the 'father' of natural horsemanship

How true, for life, parenting, horse and dog training!
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italybound
Friday, January 20, 2006, 5:31pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from dawgmama
I've up my vitamin C intake, and yep, it may be helping.


How much are you taking a day?


Quoted from dawgmama
Sometimes a nice hand or foot rub from your sweetie does the trick. Maybe because it makes you feel loved!! :K


Well, THIS is so funny. You must have one heck of a guy. Most guys give it 2 rubs and want to know if that's enough.          Think I'll try that once.  



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Cheryl_O_Blogger
Friday, January 20, 2006, 6:06pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Victoria
Cheryl,
I can't wait to get a copy of the book.  One thing about peri-menopause is that it ends.  
Genuine menopause is a different puppy altogether!  My peri lasted for a decade, or so it seemed. All herbs and flax and efa's and a little progesterone cream took care of everything until a couple of years after my last period.  Then I began to have different symptoms than I was able to manage.  I'm still using only the most minimal of assistance from hormones.  3 drops of Progest/vit E. oil 2 x week on my gums, and vit E. oil/estriol on another delicate body area, also
2 x week.
In another month or so, it will be a year since my last hormone saliva test, and I'll see how I'm doing with that.


Thanks for the warning.  I keep wondering if I'm out of the woods, but sounds like I have a long way to go.  I know that not all women have the severe menopause symptoms.  My mother and grandmother did, but they both had complete hysterectomies which I think makes the situation worse.  I never even had my tubes tied.  I've heard that can even have an impact.


Blogger Cheryl
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"There is nothing noble in being superior to some other man.  True nobility is being superior to your former self."  Anonymous quote
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Carol the Dabbler
Friday, January 20, 2006, 10:19pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from cherylhcmba

I never even had my tubes tied.  I've heard that can even have an impact.


I've heard the same thing -- the ovaries catch on that nobody's paying any attention to them, and figure why bother doing all this work?  They may start to shut down long before full menopause.  At least, that's what I've heard, and it makes sense to me.

I had not expected to have any great problems with menopause, since I've been eating whole foods for years and years -- but it hit me like a ton of bricks!  Wish I could hop in my time machine and not have my tubes tied, and see whether that helps....


Carol

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Victoria
Saturday, January 21, 2006, 5:29am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from cherylhcmba


Thanks for the warning.  I keep wondering if I'm out of the woods, but sounds like I have a long way to go.  I know that not all women have the severe menopause symptoms.  My mother and grandmother did, but they both had complete hysterectomies which I think makes the situation worse.  I never even had my tubes tied.  I've heard that can even have an impact.


I don't mean to give the idea that you are bound to have a horrible time.  It's just that when I hit full-blown menopause, the symptoms changed, and I found it more complicated trying to find balance with all the tried and true natural techniques.  It was just different, and I had to dig up my mind and open it.    (You know, open the mind that is so sure it is always in command).  I had to be willing to change my approach and try different things.  I always was so sure I would never even consider hormones, but I think they aren't necessarily poison.  We just need to get educated and respond very carefully to each stage.  Conscious health care for women in transitions is not a very well established practice and those of us "coming of age" now, are in a sense, the guinea pigs.



Normal day, let me be aware of the treasure you are.
Let me not pass you by in quest
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Carol the Dabbler
Saturday, January 21, 2006, 6:40am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Same here, Victoria.  When I noticed that I'd been a puddle on the couch for the better part of a week, I decided that something had to change.  That's when I finally broke down and got the progesterone cream.


Carol

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virgo
Saturday, January 21, 2006, 5:41pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I'm pre-menopausal and have gotten some of my libido back by taking the orthocyclen.  I've had almost no side effects from it, only benefits like clearer skin and better sleep.  I would never have taken the Pill had I not read about it in a book called Screaming to Be Heard by Elizabeth Lee Vliet, MD.  She has written a book specifically about ovarian health called It's My Ovaries Stupid.  Both books also discuss bioidentical hormones.  She has a clinic in Tucson and a website if you'd like more information  http://www.herplace.com  She has recently written a book about testosterone which might also interest you.  http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ.....s=books&v=glance

I love Dr. Vliet's work.  It has been life changing for me.  Years before I read her books I used progesterone cream---  it never worked for me.  My skin, moods, sleep and overall health have been better on the Pill, which I know sounds strange but nevertheless is true.  Estrogen moderates 400 physiological functions in the body.  It is necessary to replace it at midlife; why wouldn't it be?      Menopausal problems are caused primarily by decline in ovarian hormone production.  (not adrenal stress as another poster suggested)

Revision History (2 edits)
Carol_the_Dabbler  -  Saturday, January 21, 2006, 6:02pm
Carol_the_Dabbler  -  Saturday, January 21, 2006, 5:58pm
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italybound
Sunday, January 22, 2006, 12:47am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from catrinac
Elizabeth Lee Vliet, MD has written a book specifically about ovarian health called It's My Ovaries Stupid.  


I heard about this book and even bought it. Guess I should finish reading it. I was really put off by the title (I mean really, did she NEED to use the "stupid" word, like that makes the book better??????????  but bought it anyway at the urging of a friend.


Quoted from catrinac
Menopausal problems are caused primarily by decline in ovarian hormone production.  (not adrenal stress as another poster suggested)


While your comment is true, having stressed and weak adrenals, which most of us do, contributes to hormonal problems. An excerpt from the following article states: .
4) Adrenal Weakness - Estrogen production is not just a function of the ovaries. The adrenals are one of the body's secondary sources for estrogen and other hormones. My theory is that as the ovaries slow down their estrogen production, the adrenals are still there to maintain some hormone levels. But many, if not most, people have so exhausted their adrenals with overextended lifestyles and incorrect handling of stress. Adrenal weakness usually shows up in our testing on clients with menopausal problems.

http://www.pacifichealthcenter.com/updates/31.asp

It also mentions:

2. Problem Foods - Menopausal symptoms are typically aggravated by dairy products, refined sugar, caffeine (including chocolate) and meat.  (For some blood types, of course, the meat issue will be a bigger problem than others. Equipro's thread on not eating SO much meat but treating it more as a  side dish made a lot of sense)


[



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Ellie
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From my limited understanding as well, I think that part of the problem with meat is the way it's raised.Quality is important.


8 feb 2008:Weight Loss on GTD so far (without trying): 4 kilos (about 8 lbs - half a stone)
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.....and genetics of the person consuming it!! )


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Victoria
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Quoted from catrinac
I'm pre-menopausal and have gotten some of my libido back by taking the orthocyclen.  I've had almost no side effects from it, only benefits like clearer skin and better sleep.  I would never have taken the Pill had I not read about it in a book called Screaming to Be Heard by Elizabeth Lee Vliet, MD.  She has written a book specifically about ovarian health called It's My Ovaries Stupid.  Both books also discuss bioidentical hormones.  She has a clinic in Tucson and a website if you'd like more information  http://www.herplace.com  She has recently written a book about testosterone which might also interest you.  http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ.....s=books&v=glance

I love Dr. Vliet's work.  It has been life changing for me.  Years before I read her books I used progesterone cream---  it never worked for me.  My skin, moods, sleep and overall health have been better on the Pill, which I know sounds strange but nevertheless is true.  Estrogen moderates 400 physiological functions in the body.  It is necessary to replace it at midlife; why wouldn't it be?      Menopausal problems are caused primarily by decline in ovarian hormone production.  (not adrenal stress as another poster suggested)


I read one of Dr. Vliet's books, and I am quite confused.  All the wholistic doctors in my area seem to support Dr. Lee's beliefs that estrogen is dangerous and can really contibute to cancer.  I know Dr. Vliet takes the opposite perspective.  She appears to have a lot of scientific support, but so do the doctors who claim estrogen to have the opposite effects that she claims.  People seem to be very polarized on this issue, and, like I said before......I'm confused.





Normal day, let me be aware of the treasure you are.
Let me not pass you by in quest
of some rare and perfect tomorrow.
~Mary Jean Irion
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italybound
Sunday, January 22, 2006, 10:51pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Victoria
All the wholistic doctors in my area seem to support Dr. Lee's beliefs that estrogen is dangerous and can really contibute to cancer.  I know Dr. Vliet takes the opposite perspective.  She appears to have a lot of scientific support, but so do the doctors who claim estrogen to have the opposite effects that she claims.  People seem to be very polarized on this issue, and, like I said before......I'm confused.


Me too. My NP guy gave me progesterone but either I didn't give it enough time or it wasn't the answer. Maybe I didn't give it enough time, as I tried to do things on my own w/ natural products for 2 mths after my total hysterectomy, and  by the time I got the progesterone, I wanted relief....NOW!!  I didn't get it. I went to Climara..  It works like a dream. It's a bio-identical hormone patch from soy, so I'm hoping it's ok.




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