4 days without activity, may be a bit too much, I am surprise it has not gone sour? I suppose the freezing temps may keep the mixture from deteriorating ... Yes, you need to find a warmish place in the house ... bed side table? with a cosy wooly cover on top, like you get for traditional tea pots? You'll figure it out ... crafty warrior and all ... ... the battle is on and those creatures do not know what is coming to them if they do not start working soon!!
BTW, my long loaves produced about 32 slices of bread each, the one from the breadmaker about 14, so I have been slicing them and bagging them in batches of 4, 6 or 8, before they get too dry and crumby!! I should have done it early this morning but, we had trades people setting up the concrete slabs for our new sheds. Lots of activity here, hoping it will not rain tomorrow so they can pour the concrete!!!
what temperature would you say is optimal? (ie what I have been doing in my freezing climate is having the yoghurt maker on 24 hours at a warm temp which as I said is hotter than blood temp) Next to my bed would drop to maybe 8-10 degrees Centigrade overnight. thanks for the vote of confidence Cristina.Yes I am battling on, but don't know how long my patience will last!!!
Jenny, my ambient temp here is about 12 (considered freezing), mostly around 16C in winter, it escalates to mid twenties in summer. So, it seems my battleground is in my favor here!
Have you considered crock pot or slow cooker, it will not help during the night, where the babies will go into dormant mode, but if you wrap them well then, and then during the day use the top of a crok pot on very slow, with a few plates in between the lid and your babies, well covered, it may help ...
or even on a plate on top of the yogurt maker without the lid (the plate holding the jar with the babies become the yogurt maker lid?
just throwing ideas, you will get to the solution soon11
Jenny, some more warm places I know from making yogurt without a yogurt maker:
Next or on top of your hot water system, in the oven with the pilot light on put glad wrap over the top sometimes might hold any heat in armpits ha ha
On another thread recently re: probiotics Lola had the brilliant idea of using a blood type specific probiotic to start your own homemade yogurt. Probably a very healthy for you sourdough could be started the same way. Lola's idea
Great loaves there Cristina, they look delicious. Recently made the best spelt loaf so far (with yeast) and made sure it was sticky (previously I've been adding more flour to stop it sticking to my fingers and everything and they had been too dry). Are you sure that spelt can be kneaded that long? I thought kneading has to be at a minimum to prevent the gluten being stretched too far and falling in again (though I love to do it too! - great for the heads and the head)
Did you make your loaves with just white spelt? I've been mixing half and half wholemeal and white and love the flavor and the lightness that you get from both. Got a bulk pack of wholemeal spelt and it's lasting a long time along with the packets of white spelt from woolies (yeh glad they have it eh). The sweet taste of spelt is so nice! Put some nutmeg, herbs in and some ghia seeds ontop of my last loaf. Little additives change the flavor dramatically.
Made pizzas this week with spelt too but they didn't rise so well as it was about 15 (freezing for brizzie) was lovely anyway. When I was rising the bread it also took longer as drafts stop it rising. So had to put it in the oven on the lowest temp possible (for rising).
Just a quickie Symbi because the family is getting ready to watch Avatar on box office and I have not booked it yet!!
Yes, I kneaded it it for about 20 minutes manually and the one on the machine got another beating with the machine, forgot how long for!! So, figure that one out!!! My bread did not fall down as you can see by the pictures. I have also heard about the gluten thing and kneading too much but of course, I did not remember it then!!!!
yes, i only use white Spelt flour, only because I wanted to make sure about this process first, then I will experiment with combinations and flavours later... Your suggestions sound very yummy!!
Come back later ...
PS: the gluten thing, is it that if you knead too much it makes the bread crumbier? too dry? I noticed mine had the perfect consistency on the first day, not as moist and dense as other sour breads I have seen or cooked before, but nice and lighter. It did not crumbed down when I sliced the bread the next day either ... Maybe because I used white Spelt flour only. ..
Next time I will bypass the machine extra kneading and see if I get same result with the machine baking. I do not think I will knead for less than 20 minutes manually for any of the loaves, they have to be kneaded until you get that elastic, silky soft texture ... I got my kneading worked out, got the skills from grandma, grew next to her making home made bread and baking it in the clay wood ash oven outside, every Sunday, for the whole week ...
Symbi, you are so cute.. have done the yoghurt maker to death, will try the pilot light today. Love Lola's idea of the probiotic..what lateral thinking!!! My spelt loaf (yeast based) collapsed yesterday in the bread machine..I think the mixture was too moist, but it still cuts up nicely, and tastes as good as ever. Must away to another day of activity and scientific work with the bacteria. It would be good to have a precis of Cristina's discoveries for simple application for beginners in the sour dough arena...I know its all there in the messages, but just one final summary would be great if you don't mind pal?
Sure Jenny, I thought about it, will work on one today, now that the youngsters are all out for most of the day (holidays here today: show day!! - have you had yours yet?).
I will do the summary, we all try the process a few times ( different people) and then post it in recipe central. BTW I also find some of the book instructions a bit cryptic or too assuming, ending up doing things totally different to what is intended ... Good in these forums, we can keep checking on each other ... I love your feedbacks, I learnt so much from hearing you all saying things and from reading countless books ...
Ingredients: 1 cup bonsoy milk (too impatient to wait for my beans to be ready to milk!!) 1 capsule Polyflora (for your type) 1 stainless steel saucepan (just big enough to warm the cup of milk) 1 yogurt maker (or any other device you have to keep the mixture warm) 1 glass jar big enough to hold your milk and place in yogurt maker. I do not like using the plastic container the yogurt maker came with. I gave those to my DGD to play. I much rather use recycle glass jars! 1 small glass or ceramic bowl to act as the 'lid' for the glass jar inside the yogurt maker
The first 4 dot points indicate how I sterilize my glass jar using microwave. You can substitute with your own sterilizing method (pressure cooker, boiling, etc). The rest of the instructions indicate how I start the process of yogurt making using yogurt maker
Select glass jar where to make yogurt (I recycle one of those big mayonnaise jars I used to get )
Fill jar with water to about half an inch (2cms) from the top
Place jar in microwave and nuke for 5 minutes at full power
Let it cool down for a few more minutes while preparing milk and then discard water
warm milk in saucepan to just below boiling point (just when bubbles start forming on the side)
Place warm milk in warm steriled glass jar
Place glass jar inside yogurt maker to cool down to just above blood temperature Use sterile spoon to test some milk on your skin to check the temp if you do not have a thermometer. The drops of milk should feel just lukewarm on your skin.
Once the milk has cooled down enough, brake contents of Polyflora capsule into the milk
Stir in lightly by shaking the jar, do not use spoon.
Close and set yogurt maker to desired length of time, I start with 4 hours
Let it rest undisturbed for required period of time
Place resulting yogurt in fridge as soon as you can to thicken ...
Unfortunately I do not have any cows or goats milk at home to also test this procedure. I may buy half a litre tomorrow just for this purpose. Since I am starting this project at 10pm (while watching world cup soccer with hubby), the yogurt will be sitting longer than required before placing it into the fridge. Will report in the morning about the results of this experiment ...
BTW, if the experiment above works using soy milk, for sure it will work with any other animal base milk, or plant base milk ...
I intend to use this yogurt to start another batch of fermented bread culture tomorrow morning ... this time will be true to type culture ... Might do it behind the scenes though and just report here at the end only ... ??
mmmm, all this got me thinking now, if my O, B or AB friends come to visit, they will be required to send me a couple of their respective Polyfloras so I can bake their true to type bread!!! It will certainly raise a few eyebrows in the post if they happen to notice all these pills popping around the place ...
Checked status of mixture at 4sh this morning: too liquid, if any activity, it did not show it at all. So, I added another two Polyflora capsules (remember it is all experimenting still). Set the yogurt for another 5 hours planning to re-check after completing a few chores this morning like shopping for raw milk and more spelt flour!!! Grrrrr!! Spelt grains are not available here yet!!! May have to source them from down south!!!
It is now noon and I am happy to report that I have now a wonderful cup of 'True to type A' Soy yogurt sitting in my fridge!!!
Colour: sort of creamy, like normal full cream soy milk Consistency: creamy, like thick custard type of mixture Texture: silky, soft Taste: kind of sweet hint, with sharp tingle (like garlicky sharp) ...
Taster hubby: I like it, tastes sweetish, I will eat it taster DD: nope, I would not eat it, I did like the one you (meaning me) served this morning (yogurt I made based on commercial yogurt and cow milk) Taster me: I will happily have it on my homemade granola any time!!
Conclusion: As Lola already told us, the system works. Now I have an idea of quantities, I will continue making my true to type yogurt using for the time being raw cow milk, at least until I get around to doing my own soy milk again.
I will use the cup I just made of Type A soy base yogurt to create a Type A fermented bread starter, at the latest this evening ...
The fermented bread batch I made earlier (page 16), is disappearing very fast. I think it gets better and tastier as it gets older, sort of like all of us here !!! Can't help it to love this journey ...
I have not tried any other milks yet, I soon will and post my results, but according to Lola, yes, you can use different milks. It makes sense to me too.
Regarding the ratio, so far has been trial and error: I started with one polyflora tablet, as you can see in my descriptions here, but, at least given my conditions, it was not enough, so I added a couple more and it worked! You may find out it is enough with just one or two ... Like I did, start at the lower end and add more if needed.
I think that with culture mixtures like yogurt, it all has to do with your ambient conditions, so results may vary, take everything just as a guide rather than gospel.
I used yogurt maker for convenience: set time and forget. It is also airtight and will keep constant desired temp for me. But, until recently I used to have a jar immerses in hot water in an ski. Also in the past, particularly in summer, just used to sit the yogurt mixture on a warm place in a corner in my kitchen. Again, play with whatever resources you have. Nice, cosy warm in an bigger airtight container is best for yogurt making, I think ...
Again, thanks for visiting, it encourages me to keep on going ...
Well, that did not work!! Either I heated up the milk too much and killed whatever the creatures need from it to make the yogurt or the creatures did not like the raw cow milk (being A type probiotics!! Lola, you mentioned something earlier about the creatures not liking anything processed, does that apply too in regards to anything not good for type As, like cow milk, no matter how raw it is??!!
I will start again!! Glad I am only just using a couple of cups of milk and nobody in the house is missing them (being an A household), well, they shouldnt anyway!!!
PS: CORRECTION!!!! YES!!! it did work!! I took the jar of the yogurt maker with the intention of throwing it away, but then I noticed some sort of viscosity at the bottom. I decided to add another Polyflora and put it back in the yogurt maker for another 3 hours. Had dinner, went to bed for a nap, got up again to start the new batch and surprise! The yogurt was formed! May be we need 4 polyfloras for 2 cups of milk? Maybe this bacteria likes to take its time and needs 8 hrs to incubate rather than the usual 5?? Whatever it is, I am not complaining and accept the success and the learnings that come with it!!
I am so pleased that, after all, the raw milk process did work! I PS my post previous page (reply 423) with the update.
I have now started another batch of yogurt with raw milk:
2 tablespoons from the previous batch
2 Polyflora tablets
about 6 cups of raw milk just above blood temp
Glass jar in yogurt maker with timer set to maximum: 10 hrs. Give those creatures plenty of time to feel cosy and do their business overnight!!!
In the meantime I have almonds and walnuts soaking in salt and brown rice soaking in lemon water.
Yesterday I flaked my groats, soaked them in water with lemon and a bit of wheat flour. Today I drained them, chopped some home soaked and dehydrated nuts, added olive oil and honey, some flax seeds and put them in the dehydrator for a few hours. We now have phytic acid reduced granola to enjoy as finger food for the kids (and not so kids) or for the odd breakfast.
5 am next morning and I have a big jar of 'Type A' yogurt!!! Fantastic! The timer must just switched off because the yogurt is still warmish. I put the yogurt in the fridge.
It is very thick, custard like, I will taste it and take photos later. I am now busy drinking my lemon water and will soon do the OOPulling, flossing, etc.
I am also working on the new bread fermentation project based on the cup of 'Type A soy yogurt' I made (previous page). Not much activity with it, but, no need to panic, it is early days. I keep on stirring it a few times a day. I also fed it with a little bit more flour because it seemed too watery ... maybe because I made the silly mistake of putting a plate on top of the stainless steel bowl I am using for it (the ferment starter). What was I thinking!! That did not allow my ambient creatures to find residence in it, slowing down the process ... Must not get mixed up with the yogurt process: reduce air for yogurt, increase air for bread starter.
BTW, all that fermented bread baked back in page 16 is almost finished. Family and visitors made a good job of enjoying it! It looks like we will have a few bread-less days while I work on the 'sponge making' process again for the next batch of home made fermented bread!! This time with the 'Type A' creatures only at work! ...
I am getting so frustrated, and unlike me, almost in tears..just can't make the sour dough work. Have tried a beat up crock pot which got too hot, have tried the pilot light, have tried the lowest possible temp in the oven...nothing works. It is really important to me to get this right as my sensitive Explorer man can only eat millet/rice non-yeasted bread, and none of the commercial ones are any good as either they are unpalatable or have some wrong additives. I will be persuading him to try spelt bread, but I have to do it with sour dough, not yeast as such.
Oh dear Jenny!! I understand your frustrations fully! I am still trying to make to work the type A fermention bread starter. I started it with the cup of soy yogurt I made using Polyflora but it is not moving, it just sits there, a silky, runny custard like mixture that is not bubbling away, except when I stir it. I just added the 4th cup of flour to it and I promised myself I will not add any more. Will leave it sitting there on top of the coffee maker for the next 48 hours: there is bound to be some activity by then, even if it is the kind that require us to use a peg in our noses!!!
The yogurt making part worked fine, so I do not see why this is not working!! I need to summarize my process and see if I missed something there ... Sorry Jenny, I have not done that yet!! got side tracked with lots of other things happening here with the building works, world cup soccer and pantry re-arranging (yes, again, not happy with previous layout, OK for just me, but not working for Metta and I together, so re-arranging together... should be OK now, work in progress) and so on ...
I do not know, maybe you are right and the cold weather sends the good little creatures running away, hybernating somewhere else and keeps them away from our bread starters ....!!! I do not want to cry though ... so, don't you start!!!
Oh, oh, oh, sour dough... not crying anymore, there are bubbles... I added a smidgen of honey to both the spelt and the rye starters, and that seems to be working. Left them in the slow cooker bath overnight, (faulty old cooker that barely heats up that I got through freecycle), and when I stirred them this morning they started to bubble....then would you believe it some friends told me that you can get sour dough starter from No Knead in a local IGA supermarket.!!!! Later...I find that there is not any sourdough preparation in the supermarket, only a kind of pretend 'sour dough' flour. As I am avoiding commercial yeast this will be no good.Never mind More news later.
Jenny, we must have been 'in tune' on this, because in reviewing my posts I noticed I have put some sweetener to one of the starters, so I added some barley malt to this one and also, noticed some activity!! We may get there yet ...
I am pretty busy at the moment, making soy milk (using organic non GM soy beans), dehydrrating nuts, trying to sprout wheat, ... hubby says my kitchen is like a weird lab, with pots, and machines, and jars, and mixtures, timer alarms blowing here and there, devices beeping, extrange things mushrooming all over ...
PS: I may add too that there is a lot more sunshine here today and it is a bit warmer ...
Ahh!!I could not go to bed tonight without making the breads!! We are breadless at the moment and I do not know how much longer the youngters will last without rushing to the shop for the commercial bread!!! That will not be necessary now, since the little creatures arrived and they seem to have done their job!
But, before I go any further let me summarize my process so far to make the Polyflora based bread starter.
1 - 1 cup Polyflora A soy yogurt 2.- 2 cups Spelt flour (or any other of your choice) 3.= 1 cup water 4.- sweetner (optional, I used barley malt, had to add it half way through process as explained below)
Mix together these ingredients long enough to take most of the lumps off. Let it sit in a warmish place for a few days, stirring frequently and adding equal parts of flour and water each day.
Observation 1: It seems to me that this Polyflora base starter is a slow starter, or sometimes the ambient conditions are not right (not enough creatures in the air), but, as long as there is no foul smell and mixture looks healthy, it pays to be patient. Once bubbles appear, it usually takes off. You can keep on adding flour and water until you reach the desire volume for your project. Last batch I used 6 cups for the starter, this time only about three.
Observation 2: If you notice a whey like liquid underneath the top layer, that means that at some stage the mixture came to a 'head' and then collapsed. It is now ready to make bread, but if you require more quantity of starter, you can keep on adding equal parts of water and flour to it to your heart's content.
Bread making process:
1.- Salt to taste = about 1 tablespoon for about 1.5 litres of starter. I used about half for this one because it is about half that volume. 2.- about a cup of warmish water (do not want to shock the residents) 3.- enough flour to make nice, silky, stretchy bread dough
Add the cups of flour one at a time, mixing it together until you can get your hands to it and then: Knead, knead, knead for about 20 minutes, or as long as you need to get desired dough consistency. I know they say Spelt bread should not be kneaded too much, but I do mine and it turns out great.
Make like a dough ball and let it rest in a warmish place for a few hours or until it grows a bit. Sometimes they raise quite a bit, sometimes not so much. Patience is the key ... When you are satisfied that it has risen enough or at least you have given the dough enough time for to raise, bring it back to the kneading table and knead some more, only a few minutes, just to push the mixture back down and smooth it out again to make the loaves.
Divide the dough into desired loaves of bread and place in trays.
Let trays of dough rest, covered and in a warmish place for another hour or so, or until they have risen enough to bake.
Bake them in oven at about 350F (just under 200C) for just under an hour ....
I ended up with two starters again this time: Because it was not working, I divided my mixture into two to try to awaken the creatures, I put barley malt in one, and added Polyflora raw milk yogurt culture to the other. Both mixtures woke up then in a surge of activity producing enough starter volume for two loaves.
One loaf went into the breadmaker for further keading, raising and then baking. Except that I set this up late last night, was tired, went to bed for a couple of hours with the intention of giving the breadmaker enough time to knead and proof the bread, then I will have to press the 'bake' button, for it to do it (I use the manual settings for all this). But, I fallen asleep and hubby woke me up this morning saying 'what is wrong with the bread in the machine, it did not cook!!' Of course not, I did not press the button last night!! So, I tried to bake it this morning, during the night the bread had risen beautifully to the top of the container!!! 5 am in the morning it is still too dark around here, where I have the breadmaker is a darkish spot, even with the lights on! In fiddling with the electronic set buttons, instead of setting it to 'bake' I set it to the one above it, the one for 'knead'!!! The moment I realized my mistake, it was too late, the machine had already broken down my beautiful up to the top raised bread. So, at the moment, the breadmaker is still kneading this dough, then I will wait again for a few hours hoping it will raise again to its top of the container glory, and finally allow the breadmaker to 'bake' the loaf by pressing the right button this time!!!
It will be interesting to see what comes out of all this extra kneading and raising of the dough! 'There she is again with her experiments ...' rolling eyes hubby ... I hope this works ...
As for the second starter dough, last night I placed it in a small loaf tray, let it proved for a while to a certain height and then baked it. So, this morning at least we do have some bread choices ready for breakfast ...
Jenny, I hope you are having success with yours. Notice my rescue attempts above. I came to the following conclusions (at least until otherwise proven):
1;-If using soy milk based starter we may need to add the sweetener. It worked with the process described in page 16 for the soy milk one, and it did the trick here too.
2.-On the other hand, it also seems to work by adding the raw milk based yogurt, the one I made using the Polyflora tablets as explained in previous pages ...
Interesting findings ... If you just use soy milk, the creatures like a bit of swwetness to get them moving. They do not seem to care where this sweetness comes from, either from a 'normal' type of sweetener like barley malt or honey? or the subtle sweetness of the raw milk yogurt ... ?
Of course, this is an on-going process. I preserved about a cupful of the starter mixture to start a new batch. I will keep feeding it flour and water for the next few days and so on, so in a week's time I can be making fermented bread again, and so on, and so on ....
Beautiful type A fermented Spelt bread ... so far made using organic white Spelt flour sourced from a HFS or even supermarkets ... I am still waiting for my organic Spelt whole grains, so I can then soak them, dehydrate them just enough to get them dry and be grinded into my own 'Phytic reduced Spelt flour'!! The shops around here are unable to get the grain yet due to last year's crop failures in aussieland ... Aussi forum dwellers, I welcome source names from Qld ...
Making your own phytate-reduced wholemeal spelt flour will be brilliant! I've only been getting the flour from Make it and Bake it at Redcliffe and from The Ironwood Cottage at Sandgate (great for all healthfood especially bulk) and white spelt from Woolies.
Thanks for explaining the steps on here that will help lots of people.
Look forward to chatting when I get back. Aren't we busy bakers? Gotta make some bread today myself so I have some in the freezer for when I come back and for the next few days. Very happy that DH has ditched his commercial fruit cake and since he liked spelt bread so much, asked me to make a fruit loaf for him. It's taking a long time but he is bending to healthy food (gave up ham / bacon just recently!) and I hope to blood type him while we are away. If not I'll continue chasing him after he shaves and any other spurting opportunity. Chat when I get back. Keep posting Cristina!
Here are the photos of this last lot. This is the one that got triple kneaded, twenty minutes by hand and then twice on the breadmaker (by mistake), knead, rise, knead again, rise again and finally baked in the machine!! The other smaller loaf that I baked in the oven was gone before I had a chance to take photos. This one just came of the 'press', all youngsters gone, so it will last us a few days ... she hopes ...
and why it is healthy: Quoted Text * Sourdough bread has a lower glycemic index — a measure of how high and how quickly blood sugar spikes after eating a food — than bread made with commercial yeast. This makes it a better choice for people with, or at risk for, diabetes. * Sourdough makes certain minerals (iron, zinc, magnesium, and others) in whole grains more available for absorption by our bodies by facilitating the breakdown of phytic acid, a compound in grain bran that inhibits mineral absorption. * Sourdough shows promise for people with celiac disease, which renders people intolerant to gluten. Not only can sourdough improve the taste, texture, and overall sensory quality of breads made with gluten-free flours, but it may also act to degrade or deactivate proteins in gluten that adversely affect gluten-sensitive people. * Sourdough makes people happy, thereby diminishing stress, which is good for all-around wellness. (Okay, this one is anecdotal, but I completely believe it, don’t you?) * Sourdough bread has a lower glycemic index — a measure of how high and how quickly blood sugar spikes after eating a food — than bread made with commercial yeast. This makes it a better choice for people with, or at risk for, diabetes. * Sourdough makes certain minerals (iron, zinc, magnesium, and others) in whole grains more available for absorption by our bodies by facilitating the breakdown of phytic acid, a compound in grain bran that inhibits mineral absorption. * Sourdough shows promise for people with celiac disease, which renders people intolerant to gluten. Not only can sourdough improve the taste, texture, and overall sensory quality of breads made with gluten-free flours, but it may also act to degrade or deactivate proteins in gluten that adversely affect gluten-sensitive people. * Sourdough makes people happy, thereby diminishing stress, which is good for all-around wellness. (Okay, this one is anecdotal, but I completely believe it, don’t you?)
Wow! Make sourdough bread, live long and prosper!
The low GI component is going to be worth it Jenny, keep trying those wild yeasties will play soon.
Didn't read all of that but it's giving me good reason to try sourdough (except it sometimes gives me a headache - probably the amines). Gotta go!