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Fermenting and sprouting for our Type  This thread currently has 8,285 views. Print Print Thread
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Munchkin76
Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 10:52am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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Jenny, that's fantastic - and I'm glad the cooler ACT weather hasn't halted the yeast critters !!

Have either of you tried making the starter (and/or) baking completely with gluten-free flours?  On my Swami spelt is now an avoid

Here's what I can have:

Superfoods
Artichoke Flour, Pasta ◊
Flaxseed Bread (containing allowable
grains)
Fonio
Job's Tears, Coix spp.
Larch Fiber
Malanga, Tannier, Xanthosoma
Millet
Quinoa
Rice Bran
Rice Flour, Brown
Rice, Basmati
Rice, Brown
Rice, Puffed or Rice Cakes
Rice, Wild
Teff

Neutral
Amaranth
Buckwheat, Kasha, Soba
Essene, Manna Bread
Lentil Flour, Dahl
Papadam
Rice Flour, White
Rice, White

I would rather stick to supers if poss.  Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance

Andy  


Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely. CHINESE PROVERB

Andy Pandy��


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Cristina
Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 11:14am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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Andy, I am sure we can try something for you, most of your benes are also mine and so are the neutrals ... So any sourdough starter based on any of the wheats or rye is a no, no for you?  Today i bought a packet of organic buckwheat flour, i wonder if I could make a starter with that ... might start one tonight, just for the sake of it ... or I will not be able to sleep if I do not try that!!!  






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Cristina
Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 11:16am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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... and then we can try a combo of the benes to actually make the dough ... something small to start with ... we will see ...




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Munchkin76
Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 11:17am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Cristina, you're a gem!!  Do let me know if you do go for a try with the buckwheat!!  I think I've got some of the flour in my pantry - if not, it's easy enough for me to buy some.  I'm placing a delivery order with an amazing online organic healthfood store on Thursday so I can add some buckwheat flour to the order if I don't have any!!

Thanks again  


Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely. CHINESE PROVERB

Andy Pandy��


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Cristina
Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 11:20am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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as usual will keep you posted!  Time for me to log off now, getting a bit late here ... got to grab a bowl or  jar and the buckwheat flour before going to bed ... talk to you again tomorrow ... cheers ...




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Munchkin76
Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 11:44am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Thanks again Cristina, sleep well!  Off to Southampton tonight for work tomorrow.  Will be back online again on Thursday am.

Take care till then...

Andy


Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely. CHINESE PROVERB

Andy Pandy��


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Ribbit
Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 3:25pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Andy, you can make a nice bread with millet flour and flax meal.  That's sort of my standard now.  But rice flour isn't as depressing as you might think.

http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/recipedepictor7x.cgi?960

http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/recipedepictor7x.cgi?1163

http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/recipedepictor7x.cgi?966

http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/recipedepictor7x.cgi?1048

Well, those are more snacks and desserts, but you can take that idea and make unsweet bread to go along with soups and such.


ISTJ, BTD since 5/05.  Battling chronic Lyme disease since ~1985.

"Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial..."  I Corinthians 6:12

Family: 3 As, 1 B, 1 AB, 1 O
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Jenny
Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 9:05pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Cristina, I am using my machine, as my kitchen is so small, therefore the bread is the kneaded variety. I program the machine to rise  3 times at 99 minutes each which is the maximum available, so the whole preparation and cooking time is marked at 6.36 hours. I also alter the knead time from 20 back to 15 minutes as it seems that the more it kneads, the more damp the dough becomes especially with spelt. I still haven't perfected the proportions to my satisfaction so will not post the details yet.



Eating half and exercising double.
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Munchkin76
Thursday, July 15, 2010, 5:44am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Leanne (Ribbit)

Thanks a million for these brilliant recipes , I can't wait to give them a try!  I sure miss spelt just now, but am sure I'll be fine once I get more used to using the grains on my allowed list.

Cristina has kindly volunteered to conduct an experiment in her lab (ahem... I mean kitchen) using a buckwheat starter and rice flour.  She's so wonderful!!

Cheers again

Andy  


Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely. CHINESE PROVERB

Andy Pandy��



Revision History (1 edits)
Munchkin76  -  Thursday, July 15, 2010, 6:15am
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Cristina
Thursday, July 15, 2010, 12:18pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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Age: 63
Buckwheat project sourdough:

Warning:

Do not  repeat this process yet, it is still in experimental stage, let me finish it first, see what comes out of it, then we can summarise and integrate it  or start again ...

As promised the other night, I mixed:

1 cup of buckwheat flour
1 cup and a bit of water

and mixed it into a glass jug to a very thick paste.  I had to add a bit more than a cup of water because the paste was too stiff, as it was, it ended up being a lot thicker than spelt flour starters.  The mixture had that gluten type elasticity and adding more water would have made it too runny.  It seemed to me that there was not 'in between' either too thick or too runny, so I opted for thicker ...

Literally left the jug on the counter next to all my other fermenting projects ... did not touch for the last couple of days.

All the time though, I was noticing some activity, like lunar domes appearing on the surface and this morning everything looked peaked.  It had expanded, it had the look and feel of a very good starter ...  So, I made the dough.

I did not have bought flour, but since I have a stone milling machine, and organic brown rice, I just made my own brown rice flour ... I know, Lola would be telling me now that I should have rinse, soaked and dry the rice before making the flour, but that would have taken a few days too many, for the sake of this experiment, this shortcut will have to do!  

here are my approximate proportions for this dough:

1.5 cups starter
about two cups warm water
1 tbsp salt
3.5 cups rice flour

I mixed the salt and water and added to the starter.  Mix it in well, then added the flour one cup at a time.  Used a fork to start with, until the dough became too stiff, then I used my hand to gather the last bit of flour and tydied the dough up into a ball.  

Oiled casserole dish, put the dough into it and set it up to rise for the rest of the day ...

For comparison, I also made a spelt bread dough and placed it in a dish next to the buckwheat / rice dough ...

8 hours later, the spelt dough has risen to over half way mark, in contrast the rice dough has expanded a bit, showing lots of cracks at the top ... but was unable to rise  ...

My intuition tells me it needs another element to it, so in looking at Andy's list of benes, I decided to add Quinoa flour.

I punched down the mixture, added 1.5 cups of quinoa flour (again home made from quinoa grains) and a bit more water ...  Mixed it all together to form a bigger ball of dough.  It will sit overnight and I will bake it tomorrow, rise or not ...

will keep you posted ...  




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Lola
Thursday, July 15, 2010, 2:57pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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for flakes I would have soaked, then dried......
but for flour......think what you did was fine!
rice doesn t sprout easy, so grinding dry whole grain brown rice is fine,
provided your grain mill is a good one!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Cristina
Friday, July 16, 2010, 12:38am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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Age: 63
Buckwheat fermented bread experiment:


The round one is the Spelt no-knead, sourdough bread, the long one is the Rice/Quinoa dough with a buckwheat flour starter.  The round one, although looks burnt, it is not, although it is much darker on the outside than usual due to using different dish to cook it in! I used my normal dish with the buckwheat one!!  They shared the baking for the last twenty minutes of the spelt bread cooking process.  Then I cooked the buckwheat one for another 15 minutes or so on low.

I will not say much about the spelt bread, you have heard me before, this one does not even have the sour taste to it, it is the sweetest spelt bread yet!! I changed the proportion of salt and a couple of other things, posting recipe next.  Lets talk about the buckwheat experiment:

Rising rate: Another 8 hours after the punch down and addition of quinoa flour saw hardly any rise on the dough.  Lots of cracks on the surface which indicated activity from the starter effect on the dough, but nothing to retain the gas and elevate the mixture ... more about this below.

Texture:

Surface: cracked, crunchy crumby surface on top and harder, toasted crust at the bottom.  This difference in crust results may be explained by the fact that I have water sprayed the surface twice during the cooking process.  You know, like I do with all my breads.
Inside: dense, compact, but not gummy.  Soft and melting in mouth.  I tried a couple of slices toasted and it had an easy bite to it.

Taste:
Within the first hour out of the oven, cool enough but still warmish, it had a very strong sour, salty taste.  I nearly jumped here to declare it unpalatable!! But then I remember what happened with the dahl fermented loaf I cooked the other day and waited.  Hubby tasted it a few minutes later and could not stop eating it, he loved the salty nutty taste of it! But then, he is forever adding salt and sauce and mayonaise to everything he eats!! When I toasted a couple of slices and complemented them with ghee and honey, I find it nice enough to want more.  I will try to keep it hidden until tomorrow, to allow for the sourness to settle into a more subtle level and taste it then.  

Conclusion:
I will bake it again as a gluten free alternative.  Even for those of us non-gluen sensitive, it is good to do that.  I will want to make the following changes  to my process though:

Use less salt
Include more buckwheat flour in the mixture
Include barley malt and oil in the dough mixture

Being an experiment, I just wanted to try it in its simplest form, to get a feeling of the flour behaviours.  

Before you rush into making this, wait for my update tomorrow on the tasting side of things, unless you are used to strong sourdough taste.  

The beauty of this process is that it gives those on gluten free an option to include the goodness of sourdough in their bread choices, Polyflora included!! Goes so well with a cup of coffee or tea!!  





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Cristina  -  Friday, July 16, 2010, 12:53am
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Cristina
Friday, July 16, 2010, 12:52am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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Age: 63
I have buckwheat grains (the whole grain with its husk) soaking to be used in sprouting.   Has anyone had any success with these?  




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Lola
Friday, July 16, 2010, 2:11am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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yes they sprout nicely, like rye


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
DNA mt/Haplo H; Y-chrom/J2(M172);ISTJ
The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Cristina
Saturday, July 17, 2010, 12:13am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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Sourdough Pikelets (called crumpets in some places?):

You have got to try these!! it is the ideal solution for your sourdough excess.

Save the excess from maintaining your starter until you get about a cup or two of it.

The night before you want pikelets for breaky, take that cup or two of starter and add enough flour (whole meal spelt flour is best) to make it a stiff batter, not too stiff like a bread dough, but not as runny as the starter.  Somewhere in between.  

Leave it overnight.

The next morning take about about 2 cups of it and mix it with a standard size egg (free range, organic).  If you have more than 2 cups of batter then use a larger egg or more, if less use a smaller egg, not a biggie.  Mix it well and if necessary add some more liquid in the form of your allowed milks or even water.  I did not have to add anymore liquid to mine.  The addition of the egg made it pretty runny, more than I would normally use for pancakes, but the next step fixed it.

Add a little bit of bicarb soda. I used about less than a teaspoon for about 2 cups of this batter.  The batter will then start to thicken and froth.  

Cook spoonful of it in your favority skillet, frypan with your favorite ghee.

You do not need to add any sweetener to this batter, the overnight fermentation transforms the complex sugars into sweet simple sugars ...

We ate them on their own, with ghee, with honey and barley syrup ... tried them in different ways ... they were all fantastic!!! Organic home grind coffee complimented the superb breaky!!  




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Cristina
Saturday, July 17, 2010, 12:29am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I have a buckwheat sourdough going, once I get enough of it, I will try this pikelet recipe with it, to make buckwheat pikelets ...    Has anyone experimented with it?  




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Munchkin76
Saturday, July 17, 2010, 9:00pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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Cristina

Sorry, have been down on the south coast visiting friends for the last few days so haven't been online.

Thanks tonnes for cracking on with your experimentation with the buckwheat/rice flour combo!  Sounds like you've had a reasonably successful outcome all-in-all.  I can't wait to give it a burl!  I'm waiting for a health food store delivery in the next day or so and then I'll get going.  Perhaps, if I add some sort of emulsifier I might overcome the cracking (gas escapage (made up word) issues.  I have coconut oil (good for emulsification) as a bene so will give that a go and let you know how it works - will follow your lead and post pics.

You made pikelets for breaky!!  Yum, I haven't made them for ages - since I went gluten-free on the diet.  Such an Aussie thing right!! Love 'em.

You are such an amazing ambassador for this lifestyle - thanks again for trying your experiment for me!

Big (((hugs)))

Andy  


Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely. CHINESE PROVERB

Andy Pandy��


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Ribbit
Saturday, July 17, 2010, 9:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Christina, you could try mixing some flax meal (mixed into a jell with hot water) in there.  That always helps the gluten-free consistency.


ISTJ, BTD since 5/05.  Battling chronic Lyme disease since ~1985.

"Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial..."  I Corinthians 6:12

Family: 3 As, 1 B, 1 AB, 1 O
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Cristina
Sunday, July 18, 2010, 2:04am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Andy, south coast, cold down there?  I was wondering what happened to you! Nice to enjoy time away with friends  ...

The experiment: we are still eating the loaves, rice and the spelt one.  I am very novice, amateur to the minus minus exponential!!! Learning though ... you are right, a emulsifier will probably work and Ribbit suggested the flax meal, easy to use ...

Keep us posted of your experiments, we can learn from each other ... I will also keep trying different things ... and posting ...  

Regarding the pikelets, I want to try the same thing with buckwheat.  Can you eat eggs? If not, I may use the Ribbits flax meal trick instead. And a bit of bicarb soda, is that ok in your Swami? Otherwise what else is in your condiments?  

Coconut oil is a no no for us ...

thanks Ribbit, will use that flax meal more with these gluten free mixtures, it may be what makes a difference ...  




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Ribbit
Sunday, July 18, 2010, 2:47am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I've been using millet or rice flour combined with golden flax meal.  Golden flax seems to bind better than the brown.  I usually use as much as half and half.  I know flax meal is expensive, but I get the whole seeds in bulk at the farmers market for pretty cheap.  Probably if I didn't have that option, I wouldn't use it!

I made some really nice pizza dough tonight for dinner.

A cup of millet flour, a cup of flax meal, some yogurt to react with the baking powder, some yeast, honey, salt....and hot water.  I think that was all.  I let it sit in the oven with just the light on (so it was warm) to let it rise a little.  I was impressed.

The trick with flax meal is using hot water to make it gummy.  And you gotta stir it quick and get it in the pan before it loses its fluff.


ISTJ, BTD since 5/05.  Battling chronic Lyme disease since ~1985.

"Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial..."  I Corinthians 6:12

Family: 3 As, 1 B, 1 AB, 1 O
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Cristina
Sunday, July 18, 2010, 3:41am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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Age: 63
Great tips Ribbit, thanks.  We cannot have millet here, so I will try that with rice flour instead.  I will also use one of my sourdough starters instead of yeast.  It should work, I think.  Thanks so much for the recipe, sounds delicious ...




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Munchkin76
Sunday, July 18, 2010, 7:52am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Cristina/Ribbit

The flax meal option sounds like a great one!  I always have some golden flax ground up in the freezer so it'll be easy for me to give this a try (when the buckwheat flour arrives that is).

Cristina, yep I can have eggs, bi carb etc - they're all good on my Swami - here's what my condiments say:

Superfoods
Agave Syrup
Molasses
Molasses, Blackstrap
Mustard, Wheat-free, Vinegar-free
Umeboshi Plum, Vinegar
Vegetable Glycerine
Yeast, Bakers ◊
Yeast, Nutritional ◊

Neutral
Baking Soda
Epazote
Fruit Pectin
Gelatin, Plain
Lecithin
Roselle
Sea Salt
Yeast Extract Spread, Marmite

Avoid
Agar
Aspartame
Barley Malt •
Dextrose
Fructose
High Fructose Corn Syrup
Honey •
Ketchup
MSG •
Maple Syrup
Mayonnaise
Mayonnaise, Tofu, Soy
Miso
Mustard, with Vinegar and Wheat
Pickle Relish
Rice Syrup •
Soybean Sauce, Tamari, Wheat-free
Stevia •
Sugar, Brown, White
Vinegar, all types
Worcestershire Sauce

Can't wait to hear how the pikelets turn out!

The south coast was lovely and toasty.  Went on a few nice country walks and had a big BBQ yesterday with lots of friends and tonnes of little ones running around.  Was nice!


Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely. CHINESE PROVERB

Andy Pandy��


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Cristina
Monday, July 19, 2010, 7:26am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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Age: 63
Buckwheat Sourdough Pikelets project:


These pikelets are yummy!! And so easy to make!! Gluten free and sourdough...

Well, this is worth a try!!

Here is a summary of the process:

1.- Make a sourdough starter with one cup of buckwheat flour, one and a bit cup water as explained in previous post

2.- I added 1 cap of Polyflora A to it, but you do not have to if you do not have that

3.- After a few days, you will notice the starter getting a few bubbles, it will not grow as much, if at all, as the wheat (spelt or rye) starters, but it will spand and take on that sponge consistency when you move the glass jar you are preparing it in.

5.- if you want to increase the quatity of it for bigger batchs, just add more flour and equivalent amount of water.

Note:  I made those 12 small pikelets with just half a cup of this dough. I am keeping the other half for tomorrow morning's batch!

6.- the night before the pikelet making morning, take some starter aside, maybe a cup or half a cup, add same amount of flour (no water this time) and let it rest all night

7.- in the morning make the pikelets:

7a: 1 cup dough
7b: 1 standard egg
7c: mix well
7d: add 1/2 tsp bicarb soda, mix gentle, let it rest for a few minutes, you will see some bubbling activity, the dough becomes custurdy ...
7e: heat pan with some ghee, drop spoonful of mixture, cook till golden on both sides
8.- Enjoy them!!




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Munchkin76
Monday, July 19, 2010, 8:15am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Wow, these look great Cristina - I can smell them from sunny London town  


Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely. CHINESE PROVERB

Andy Pandy��


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Munchkin76
Monday, July 19, 2010, 8:23am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Slightly off topic, but I was visiting a friend yesterday (at home) for their birthday to take over a pressie etc.  Anyway, I made this banana bread by Ribbit:

http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/recipedepictor7x.cgi?754

It was lovely!!  Added about 1/4 cup of chopped hazelnuts and about 1/2 cup or so of fresh blueberries right at the end before putting into the loaf pan.

Turned out lovely and moist and all 4 of us enjoyed it immensely - thanks Ribbit!!

Andy  


Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely. CHINESE PROVERB

Andy Pandy��


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BTD Forums    Lifestyle    Cook Right 4 Your Type  ›  Fermenting and sprouting for our Type

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