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Black Dots: Non-Staple Neutrals
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Enobattar
Saturday, October 3, 2015, 2:23am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from san j

Hello, Enobattar.
The thread is indeed about Dr. D's guidelines for Black Dot items - namely, their sometimes falling into the Neutral category, after due trial.

If you'd like to share his writings about brainstem degeneration proved to be due to lectin agglutination resulting from foods eaten decades earlier, that'd be an interesting thread. I, for one, am completely unfamiliar with such a claim on his part. Why not dig that up and share it?


San J, can't dig that up tonight.  But tomorrow I will try to give you book, page(s), and paragraph(s).  I'm fairly certain Dr. D explained this pretty thoroughly in ER.


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Enobattar
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Quoted from Averno


A fair question relating to  ..."black dots", as it's a category many treat as "toxic" ...

I suppose that black dots either have no damaging lectins for the individual, are not lectin rich to the point of detriment, or the lectin issue is superseded by a condition being addressed by Swami.

I think your instincts are correct here, Ennobattar. Black dots are more likely about metabolism, digestion, allergens, etc.  And yes, if reactions aren't a problem after the wash-out period, it's safe to move them to the neutral column with reasonable monitoring. For some, this may mean permanently moving them to the avoid column.







Averno, it would be nice to think your assumptions listed in paragraph two are correct.  😊


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TheGameChanger
Saturday, October 3, 2015, 3:44am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Averno


A fair question relating to  ..."black dots", as it's a category many treat as "toxic" ...

I suppose that black dots either have no damaging lectins for the individual, are not lectin rich to the point of detriment, or the lectin issue is superseded by a condition being addressed by Swami.

I think your instincts are correct here, Ennobattar. Black dots are more likely about metabolism, digestion, allergens, etc.  And yes, if reactions aren't a problem after the wash-out period, it's safe to move them to the neutral column with reasonable monitoring. For some, this may mean permanently moving them to the avoid column.



I think the Nonnies have less of an issue perceiving which black dots would be more damaging in the long run. Maybe not the Secretors.



"Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential." -- Churchill

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Enobattar
Saturday, October 3, 2015, 7:19pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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San J, please look at the discussion under the title, Lectins:  The Diet Connection on pages 23 and 24, in ER4YT...particularly the last paragraph.  This is the closest I can come to verifying what I wrote earlier.

Beyond this I know I read that the kidney and brain filters are VERY delicate, hence the increased probability of their eventual slowing down to the point of causing kidney failure and Altziemers (sp.?).  I have also read that kidney failure is the number one cause of death for all who live beyond age 75.

I am disappointed that I cannot document that part of it.  Perhaps (since I believe I read it within Dr. D's works) some others might recollect?  I'm sure there are many more out there who have read his books from cover to cover.

Regardless, I'm going to look up each of my black dots and analyze the amount of lectin activity for each.  It should be an interesting study.


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ruthiegirl
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Black dots are in that category for a variety of reasons. Chicken is a black dot for Nomads, even though all Nomads are Bs or ABs and chicken lectin is a known problem for those blood types. So apparently, the lectin problem is mild enough for those individuals that it's OK to eat it once in a while, rather than avoiding it altogether.

Both SWAMI and Genotype look at a variety of factors in foods and evaluate "how bad is the bad stuff in here?" vs
"how much does the person need the nutrients it has?" and comes up with a rating for each food based on that complex equation.

Blood Type Diet is more heavily lectin-based but that's NOT the only factor used there either.


Ruth, Single Mother to 22 yo  O- Leah , 20 yo O- Hannah, and  15 yo B+ Jack


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san j
Monday, October 5, 2015, 9:03pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Remember that
--the "black dot" rating doesn't appear in D'Adamo's publications until the blood types are split into Genotypes
--different Genotypes show different black dots, even for identical bloodtype/sec. status.

In the case of Bs, whose susceptibility to Chicken lectin was warned of in ER and LR4YT, The three B genotypes actually weigh out as follows:
Nomads and Gatherers: Black Dot.
Explorers: Neutral.
For no B is Chicken an outright Avoid on the GTD.
So: Apparently chicken lectin is not at all uniformly a B Avoid; it should be tested by the individual (i.e., Black dot).

In fact, Nomads are, as I said in my OP, invited by Dr. D'Adamo to test "Hardcore" B Avoids such as Chicken, Lentils, Peanuts, and Cashews and re-grade them Neutral if appropriate, confirming the necessity of individual testing (i.e., again, Black Dot).

The fact that hundreds of millions of Chinese and Indian Bs, for instance, are walking around without brainstem damage decades after eating chicken, cashews AND peanuts is yet more evidence that any B lectin damage from them is something of an individual matter, albeit one that Dr. D'Adamo deems worthy of attentive testing (Black Dot) by those who read The Genotype Diet.

To address ruthiegirl's take:
Quoted from ruthiegirl
Black dots are in that category for a variety of reasons. Chicken is a black dot for Nomads, even though all Nomads are Bs or ABs and chicken lectin is a known problem for those blood types. So apparently, the lectin problem is mild enough for those individuals that it's OK to eat it once in a while, rather than avoiding it altogether.

As I wrote above, The Genotype Diet assigns the outright Avoid rating to Chicken for no B Genotype. Dr. D'Adamo's finding that its lectin can be damaging and therefore a clear Avoid for some Bs - including Nomads and Gatherers - may mean that it is not OK for those Bs to eat it once in awhile. Again, there being no evidence, that I know of, showing large chicken-eating B populations (such as those in Asia) suffering lectin-caused brainstem damage deters undue alarmism, especially among those conscientiously testing it per The Genotype Diet.


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Revision History (1 edits)
san j  -  Monday, October 5, 2015, 9:14pm
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Enobattar
Tuesday, October 6, 2015, 3:30am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Yes, an individual matter it most certainly is.

But, to restate my point, since the process of agglutination due to eating offending lectins is symptomless, how can a body know how much blockage is occurring in their kidneys and brain stem? ...since the damage takes decades to begin manifesting itself as noticeable symptoms.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that Dr. D's guidelines are meant to be followed.  Since black dots are certainly not to be eaten with any regularity, the damage that would occur would/should be minimal.  😊


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san j
Tuesday, October 6, 2015, 4:49am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Enobattar
Yes, an individual matter it most certainly is.

But, to restate my point, since the process of agglutination due to eating offending lectins is symptomless, how can a body know how much blockage is occurring in their kidneys and brain stem? ...since the damage takes decades to begin manifesting itself as noticeable symptoms.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that Dr. D's guidelines are meant to be followed.  Since black dots are certainly not to be eaten with any regularity, the damage that would occur would/should be minimal.  😊

Yes, Dr. D'Adamo has supplied guidelines. They are the subject of the thread.

As you sense kidney and brainstem lectin-damage to be a particular personal threat, it would probably be wise for you to ignore Dr. D'Adamo's Black Dot Testing guidelines and reassure yourself by simply assigning "Avoid" status to his black dot category -- at least those that have lectins.
Of course, lectins are the focus of ER4YT, and the black dot category, published about 11 years after ER4YT,  is taking into account other factors that mitigate lectin damage probability. But, Enobattar, my wish for you is that you not be afraid of anything that you're eating!  

Those of us who are following his guidelines re: the black dots are not as worried that he might have waxed too permissive about lectin-containing foods. Follow your own conscience there, I'd say.


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Victoria
Thursday, October 8, 2015, 1:30am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Just for reference -

Chicken is Avoid for AB and B Secretors and Non-Secretors in LR4YT

Chicken is Avoid for AB's and B's in all the Health Series books that I have at my house:
Aging
Allergies
Arthritis
Diabetes
Fatigue
Menopause
I can't locate my books for preventing and treating Cancer and Cardiovascular conditions - probably lent them to friends.

Both times I have done a SWAMI,  chicken has been a Toxin.

Over the years, I have noticed that the Secretors tend to be more casual in their use of the Black Dots.  Non-Secretors do what we must to stay balanced and healthy.  If anyone tries to imply that their approach to eating is superior to the way I choose to eat, their attitude is about them and doesn't have much to do with me.  Because I eat to be healthy and live long (and free from slow-acting diseases).  Those who don't understand what it feels like to gratefully follow a stricter way of eating that has ended the struggle with pain and suffering that we've dealt with for a lifetime, may never be in a position to have to understand.  




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Let me not pass you by in quest
of some rare and perfect tomorrow.
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Enobattar
Thursday, October 8, 2015, 2:10am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Victoria
Just for reference -

Chicken is Avoid for AB and B Secretors and Non-Secretors in LR4YT

Chicken is Avoid for AB's and B's in all the Health Series books that I have at my house:
Aging
Allergies
Arthritis
Diabetes
Fatigue
Menopause
I can't locate my books for preventing and treating Cancer and Cardiovascular conditions - probably lent them to friends.

Both times I have done a SWAMI,  chicken has been a Toxin.

Over the years, I have noticed that the Secretors tend to be more casual in their use of the Black Dots.  Non-Secretors do what we must to stay balanced and healthy.  If anyone tries to imply that their approach to eating is superior to the way I choose to eat, their attitude is about them and doesn't have much to do with me.  Because I eat to be healthy and live long (and free from slow-acting diseases).  Those who don't understand what it feels like to gratefully follow a stricter way of eating that has ended the struggle with pain and suffering that we've dealt with for a lifetime, may never be in a position to have to understand.  



True.  I can't believe I fiddled around not following the guidelines more strictly for 16+ years!  I guess I never thought much about it until autoimmune symptoms began to show themselves.  I guess I had to learn the hard way.  The improvement in my health has been very real and down right dramatic since following the 80/20 rule.

What I do now is mainly stock/concentrate on my diamonds.  I made a list of all my comfort foods growing up, then took each dish and tweaked it to conform with using mostly diamonds. I'm very satisfied.  Neutrals are used seldom.

After looking at my black dots, I find no compulsion to eat them but, for me, they are good to know in the case of eating away from home with my choices narrowed.


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ruthiegirl
Thursday, October 8, 2015, 9:09pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from san j
In the case of Bs, whose susceptibility to Chicken lectin was warned of in ER and LR4YT, The three B genotypes actually weigh out as follows:
Nomads and Gatherers: Black Dot.
Explorers: Neutral.
For no B is Chicken an outright Avoid on the GTD.
So: Apparently chicken lectin is not at all uniformly a B Avoid; it should be tested by the individual (i.e., Black dot).


Also remember that Gatherers can also be Os and Explorers can be any genotype. The inclusion of other blood types in the genotype group may have affected the rating of chicken for those types.

It doesn't explain why chicken is only a black dot for Nomads, as Nomads can only be B or AB and chicken is an outright avoid for all Bs and ABs on the Blood Type Diet.


Ruth, Single Mother to 22 yo  O- Leah , 20 yo O- Hannah, and  15 yo B+ Jack


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san j
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Quoted from ruthiegirl
Quoted from san j
In the case of Bs, whose susceptibility to Chicken lectin was warned of in ER and LR4YT, The three B genotypes actually weigh out as follows:
Nomads and Gatherers: Black Dot.
Explorers: Neutral.
For no B is Chicken an outright Avoid on the GTD.
So: Apparently chicken lectin is not at all uniformly a B Avoid; it should be tested by the individual (i.e., Black dot).

Also remember that Gatherers can also be Os and Explorers can be any genotype. The inclusion of other blood types in the genotype group may have affected the rating of chicken for those types

It doesn't explain why chicken is only a black dot for Nomads, as Nomads can only be B or AB and chicken is an outright avoid for all Bs and ABs on the Blood Type Diet.

Hi, ruthiegirl.
In his The Genotype Diet, Dr. D'Adamo isn't recommending a different Gatherer diet for O Gatherers than for B Gatherers. In fact he has said that the Genotype diet takes into account so much more than the singular bloodtype gene that the simple "lectin" approach recedes a few steps to permit many other factors.
This, from that book, might help to understand how some foods that are avoids on the BTD are not on the GTD:
Quoted from Dr. D'Adamo
Genotypes enable me to offer you a far wider set of food choices. For example, in my previous books, I stressed that people with blood type A should generally avoid red meat. That was true for so many blood type A's that I felt justified in saying that. But now I can see that some blood type A readers may have a GenoType – called the "Explorer" – that can be benefited by eating some red meat. On the other hand, blood type A's whose GenoType is the "Teacher" or the "Warrior" should probably continue avoiding red meat, just as I suggested before. Working with six GenoTypes rather than four blood types has allowed me to be more specific – and more flexible.

The black dot is his way of individualizing the GTD yet further, affording each reader the opportunity to expand, rather than contract yet more, the dietary scope of the BTD. Some people find they need to treat those black dots as outright Avoids, after testing them or by past experience: Understood. But some don't. And Dr. D'Adamo doesn't say that the Gatherer chicken black-dot, for instance, is there for only one bloodtype or the other, a fact which underscores your perception that the Nomad chicken black-dot also overturns that theory.

IMO, your former post (#29) says it well, too.  


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san j
Thursday, October 8, 2015, 10:50pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Victoria
Over the years, I have noticed that the Secretors tend to be more casual in their use of the Black Dots.

That certainly proves true on this thread, Victoria.
Only three responses were posted by secretors, for whom this is not as serious an issue. (Note that all three admitted to using some selected "Avoids" (not black dots: AVOIDS). )

On the other hand, there are at this point a full 24 responses on the part of the minority-secretor-status Nonnies, responding in such a way as we might surmise that the Black Dot is more likely to test "Avoid" for that minority. This is an interesting datum!

It could be that for Secretors, foods are more likely to be innocent until proven guilty, while Nonnies might be more likely to have the opposite track record and therefore be far more cautious. I'll say it again: The black dot is definitely something everyone should test for themselves.

Of course we must all eat as we see fit.
All should be able to state how they/we individually eat without being taken to task for it or argued/scared away from it. Three secretors, above, mentioned the Avoids they regularly eat. That's their business, and I'm glad they saw fit to share it with us all. The sorts of very rare way-off-in-the-future dietary consequences that nonnies might more fairly anticipate don't necessarily even occur to your average Secretor - therefore we take Dr. D'Adamo more at face value when he tells us how flexible the Black-Dot system is permitting us to be.  
To state that difference between secretors and nonnies is not a bad or evil thing, and it's good you've repeated this perception of mine, Victoria. Again: An interesting - and important - datum.
We have a Nonnie Clubhouse. With this reversal of majority/minority on the forum, however, maybe we need a Secretor Clubhouse!  
Respecting each others' practices is to be applied universally.


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ruthiegirl
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I've found that, in the GTD book, some of the "black dots" acted like neutrals and some acted like "avoids." Many foods that are black dots for Gatherers are neutral or better on my personal SWAMI. I somewhat feel that black dots are foods that are OK for some individuals in that genotype, but not for all of them.  (Then again, I know 3 young people who have been on BTD since childhood, and who can regularly eat avoids without any complications. I think that comes from NOT having spent decades eating completely the wrong foods to mess them up!)

In my SWAMI, however, I've found that most black dots are foods I can eat anywhere from once a month to once a year. Eat them more often, in too large a quantity, or too many at once, and I end up in a fibro-flare.

There is a single exception- cinnamon- that I can eat freely. But I also don't do too badly on "avoid" spices (which happens sometimes if Leah does the cooking.)


Ruth, Single Mother to 22 yo  O- Leah , 20 yo O- Hannah, and  15 yo B+ Jack


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Victoria
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Quoted from Enobattar


True.  I can't believe I fiddled around not following the guidelines more strictly for 16+ years!  I guess I never thought much about it until autoimmune symptoms began to show themselves.  I guess I had to learn the hard way.  The improvement in my health has been very real and down right dramatic since following the 80/20 rule.

Yes, this is true for a lot of us!  Before the secretor status even existed, I basically ate at a Secretor and was quite liberal in my interpretation of even that diet.  And the level of health improvements I experienced were "ok".  It was enough to keep me interested, but not enough to knock my socks off.

What I do now is mainly stock/concentrate on my diamonds.  I made a list of all my comfort foods growing up, then took each dish and tweaked it to conform with using mostly diamonds. I'm very satisfied.  Neutrals are used seldom.

My approach is similar.  I liberally eat comfort foods and an extremely well-balanced, well-rounded assortment of food, probably 60% Diamond Superfoods, 25% Superfoods and 15% Neutrals.  I never feel deprived and look forward to every bite of food I eat.

After looking at my black dots, I find no compulsion to eat them but, for me, they are good to know in the case of eating away from home with my choices narrowed.

That is my exact use of Black Dots.  And this is also where I find myself especially grateful for my understanding of the Blood Type Diet.  When, as you said, I am away from home, or, for any other reason my choices are narrowed, I will choose those Black Dot foods that are Neutral or better for a B Non-Secretor instead of the Black Dots that might be an Avoid for a B Nonnie.





Normal day, let me be aware of the treasure you are.
Let me not pass you by in quest
of some rare and perfect tomorrow.
~Mary Jean Irion
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Enobattar
Friday, October 9, 2015, 11:59pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Yes, Victoria, I enjoy every bite NOW not only because it tastes so good but knowing my present plan is helping me heal.

My arthritis pain in my fingers is 99.9% gone.  I have taken nothing for it....simply changing to the the 80/20 rule.  I still have some symptoms that accompany Sjorgren's Syndrome related to autoimmunity.  Time will tell if my dry mouth, dry eyes, and chronic sinusitis will clear up.  I'm very hopeful.  I know it sounds bad, but really they don't pose too much of an inconvenience.  I'm thinking that since I haven't been following the 80/20 rule even for a year yet, it will just take longer.

Thanks for sharing.


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