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BTD Forums    Diet and Nutrition    The GenoType Diet  ›  Spelt Bread Recipe in BreadMachine
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Spelt Bread Recipe in BreadMachine  This thread currently has 7,194 views. Print Print Thread
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Stooshy
Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 7:23pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I have just purchased the Zojirushi Home Bakery BreadMachine that makes a 2 pound loaf.
I want to bake White Spelt Bread for the kids and I wondered if anyone has experience in the Rising/Baking Times of Spelt Bread in a Bread Machine? I spoke to the manufacturer and they have no recommended Spelt Flour Recipes! They just gave me their recommendation for programming the machine for "Gluten Free" Bread.  I guess Spelt is somewhere "inbetween" the two because of its low level of  gluten... There is one Spelt Bread Recipe in the database but I want to convert it to a 2 pound loaf (the recipe is for a 1 pound loaf):

Recommended Gluten Free Cycle in BreadMachine (2 pound loaf)
Preheat 15 Min
Knead 25 Min
Skip 1st and 2nd rise; 3rd Rise - 55 Min
Bake: 55 Minutes

The Recipe in the BTD Database for a 1 pound loaf is:
1 cup Warm Apple Juice
1-1/2 tsp honey
1-1/2 tsp lecithin granules
2 Tbls. Grapeseed Oil
3/4 tsp salt
3 cups White Spelt Flour
2 tsp Fleishman's Breadmaker Yeast
Preheat/Wait before knead: 10 Min.(They didn't mention what the knead and rise time is in their machine)
Bake: 27 Min.
I need to adjust the quantities and rising/baking for a 2 pound loaf: Any suggestions?? Should I double the quantity and Bake for 55 Min?
Any experienced Bread Bakers around?!

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Lola
Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 8:03pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sa Bon Nim
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try out the recipe, by simply doubling it in size......
follow your machine instructions.....voila!

whatever turns out, if right, you ll be the expert bread maker.....if wrong...
you can always make a pudding, with almond milk or whatever....
or croutons, for salad......or even breading for whatever recipe....

happy baking!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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Munchkin76
Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 8:28pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I've made the following recipe from the Recipebase here (with a slight adjustment listed) in a breadmaker set on rapid bake cycle (2hrs in total) - not sure what % of time spent on each bit.  It turned out really well (very soft and fluffy).

1/4 cup white grape juice
1/2 cup (+ 3 tablespoons) water
4 teaspoons olive oil
3/4 teaspoons sea salt
2-7/8 cups white spelt flour (can use up to 50% white/wholemeal)
1-3/4 teaspoons active dry yeast

How to make it:
Add ingredients to bread pan in the order recommended for your machine.
Use the cycle for 'Basic yeast bread' or 'Rapid Bake'
Makes a 1-1/2 lb. loaf.

Comments:

My machine is a Hitachi Home Bakery II, and this recipe rises higher than the one in my instruction book using regular bread flour. If your machine makes a smaller loaf, watch out, it will overflow.

Here's the link to the original:

http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/recipedepictor7x.cgi?138

Let us know how it turns out!

Andy


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Cristina
Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 8:38pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I bake all my breads using my own sourdough starter and spelt bread.  The machine versions have come out really well!!     I think mine are a two pound loaf, they fill the breadmaker tray to the top!

i have posted photos and step by step process in the fermenting and sprouting thread if you want to have a look ...

Whatever you do, do not give up!! breadmaking is so satisfying and rewarding in more ways than just food ...  




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Stooshy
Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 2:31am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Thank you all so much! I will keep you posted. Cristina, I was looking at your thread yesterday...
As soon as I have worked out the "regular way" I will start with the sour dough starters, my machine has a cycle for the starter as well...
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Jenny
Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 7:22am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I've used a spelt recipe from recipe central called Spelt Bread (breadmaker) but I rarely follow recipes exactly--for instance in this one I don't use soymilk or butter,and I do use fully 100% wholemeal---so it is hard to give you a proven recipe---but I have found that spelt flour seems to need less liquid than modern flour---so I just reduce the liquids by 100-200 mls. I do find that spelt flour yields a much less commercial style of loaf, dries out quicker, etc, so I use it for toast mostly, and it is excellent for my digestion/elimination.The literature seems to say that spelt is better for us than modern flour, and of course sour dough is better than commercial yeast, so it is well worth plugging on with both these aspects of bread making.



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charlie2
Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 7:02pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Hi all.  I only let bread machine do the kneading.  Then stop and put in pan to bake in oven.  I like the crust better this way.  I also keep the loaf frozen and use only 1 or 2 slices since I am a widow now for three years.
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Changeling
Thursday, July 8, 2010, 12:37pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from charlie2
Hi all.  I only let bread machine do the kneading.  Then stop and put in pan to bake in oven.  I like the crust better this way.  I also keep the loaf frozen and use only 1 or 2 slices since I am a widow now for three years.


This is the method I prefer when I bake for DH.

Changeling
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Adam
Thursday, July 8, 2010, 7:00pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I've tried spelt bread in the bread machine and gave up.  It always collapsed.  Now, that I've done a bit of Google-ing, I thought I'd give this a shot:

http://allrecipes.com//Recipe/very-simple-spelt-bread/Detail.aspx

Several of the reviews are positive saying it's the best ever.  Sounds like a weekend adventure for me.  I'll probably use almond milk and maple syrup instead of milk and molasses.
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Mayflowers
Thursday, July 8, 2010, 7:24pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Cristina

i have posted photos and step by step process in the fermenting and sprouting thread if you want to have a look ...


Yes! Look where?  
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Munchkin76
Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:32pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely. CHINESE PROVERB

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tnahowru
Friday, July 9, 2010, 8:03pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I can't have spelt so is there a replacement for it? I can have...

  quinoa
  rice bran
  teff
  amaranth
  lentil flour
  sesame flour
  almond flour (if there's such a thing)

will any of the above do as a replacement?


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Changeling
Saturday, July 10, 2010, 1:54am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from tnahowru
I can't have spelt so is there a replacement for it? I can have...

  quinoa
  rice bran
  teff
  amaranth
  lentil flour
  sesame flour
  almond flour (if there's such a thing)

will any of the above do as a replacement?

None of the flours you mentioned will replace spelt cup for cup.  Spelt acts very much like regular flour, although a little more finicky due to the different structure of protein.  Unfortunately, if the flours you noted are your ONLY carbohydrate choices for making bread, you'll have to learn to bake gluten-free...and that can be tricky also if you can't have xanthan or guar gum.

I bake spelt for DH and keep trying to find a decent rice based bread recipe for me.  I find plenty with good taste, but the texture leaves something to be desired.

As for your question about almond flour; indeed there is such a thing and it is quite good.  For recipes using almond flour, try looking on the web at low carb forums.  Elana's Pantry has some nice recipes and she's also a published cookbook author.  Almond flour works great for quick breads, but would be heavy in a yeast application so you'll have to experiment.

Hope this helps.

Changeling




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Lola
Saturday, July 10, 2010, 2:39am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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use all your alternative flours you just mentioned, mixing as matching as you wish and make this basic recipe.
it always turns out right!
add less egg,
focaccia
http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/breads/r/flaxbasicfoc.htm
video
http://video.about.com/lowcarbdiets/Focaccia-Style-Flax-Bread.htm


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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Cristina
Saturday, July 10, 2010, 5:08am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Under the fermented, sprouting thread, I experimented using dahl flour (pigeon pea really but then, I thought it was a lentil, but it is really a pea?  I referenced it there as a lentil alomond loaf !!! sorry).  Anyhow, I used dahl flour and almond and the texture was fantastic, but the taste was too bitter at the start! but then it got milder within the next day or two, and we ended up having a couple of beautiful meals with a bean savory topping.

I would like to see that recipe happening using rice flour instead!  I think it should work well, but I have not had time to try it, I will let you know if I do. My aim in trying these, is to get the benefits of fermentation using alternatives flours to any form of wheat ...  




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Stooshy
Saturday, July 10, 2010, 7:48am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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OK I had great success with my White Spelt Bread - I have made it twice and it is absolutely delicious.
I ordered White Spelt Flour in Bulk from Angela's Gourmet Bakery via Amazon. I have used the White Spelt BreadMachine Recipe in the database with slight adaptions for my new Zujirushi BreadMachine using for a 2 pound loaf. The loaf rose too much the first time (it didn't collapse but it was soooo tall!) the second time I used 4 1/4 cups of flour instead of 4 1/4 cups and still it rose a bit too much.
I used:
1 cup white grape juice (warm)
1/3 cup water
3 tbls Grapeseed oil
4 1/8 cups white spelt flour (next time I will use only 4 cups and slightly less water)
2 tsp yeast

Pre-heat: 20 Minutes
Knead: 15 Minutes (Spelt probably needs even less time than this)
35 Min: 1st Rise
45 Min: 2nd Rise
62 Min Bake Time
The loaf was cooked perfectly I just need to get it too rise slightly less. The texture was not crumbly, could still slice nice thin slices of bread. I don't need to freeze with 5 teens/kids walking around



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Cristina
Saturday, July 10, 2010, 8:15am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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great baking stooshy! Nothing beat making your own!!  Bread machines are very practical and fairly successful at producing nice loaves, provided the user feeds it the right ingreedients and settings!!    It sounds you have perfected that!! Keep it up ...  




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Symbi
Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 2:56am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I second Cristina - well done Stooshy!  I hope you'll keep experimenting and try different recipes.

I share this experiment with frankenbread, hypothesis and research hoping it will help others and for my records too.

Wish I could say the same.  While I was away (on holidays - that sounds suss!) I used a bread machine (Breville BBM100 http://www.breville.com.au/products_detail.asp?prod=504) for the first time and the bread was lovely and light BUT it fell in.  I mean it was like a crater the size of the grand canyon in there!    I enjoyed it anyway!  

Not sure why, maybe the small amount of gluten may have gotten overstretched, or maybe it rose too high and hit the roof.  The loaf volume wasn't too large for the bread machine (3 cups flour in a 1kg machine).  
I reduced the amount of yeast for the humidity and altitude as both can improve yeasts performance.  

Notice lots of recipes don't state the size loaf that is produced here's a guide:

Quoted Text
You may also size your recipe by the following formulas:

    * 1-pound loaf (453g) takes about 7/8 cup liquid and 2 3/4 cups flour.
    * 1.5-pound loaf (680g) takes about 1 cup liquid and 3 cups flour.
    * 2-pound loaf (907g) takes about 1 1/3 cup liquid and 4 cups flour. http://allrecipes.com/HowTo/Bread-Machine-Baking-Tips-for-Experimenting/Detail.aspx


Because of limited available ingredients I followed this recipe except omitting bread improver, the one I saw at the supermarket had wheat and lots of additives in it  :  Used the basic setting, 3/4 of the yeast and a mix of white and brown spelt (for lightness and flavour).

Quoted Text
Spelt Bread in a Breadmaker

Ingredients
1¼ cups (310ml) warm water
1 tablespoon olive oil
1 tablespoon honey
1 egg
3 ½ cups (375g) organic spelt flour
1 tablespoon bread improver
2 teaspoons yeast
1 pinch salt

Preparation method
1.           Mix together the water, oil, honey and egg. Place in pan of bread machine then add all the dry ingredients. Start the “white bread cycle” on bread machine.http://allrecipes.com.au/recipe/8454/spelt-bread-in-a-breadmaker.aspx


Now I'm back home have done some research can't wait to get a breadmaker and do more experiments.  (cue maniacal laughter)

A way to get around what I assume was the gluten being overstretched, may be:

  • Use the gluten free setting, or the fast bake setting which would have shorter kneading and rising times.
  • Add some dough enhancer.  This recipe http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Bread-Machine-Spelt-Bread/Detail.aspx uses Soy Lecithin and I wondered why.  According to this page http://www.recipelink.com/cookbooks/2000/0811816869_3.html Lecithin helps mixing and enhances gluten activity.  Also Gluten, Barley malt, or Vitamin C may help.
  • Add some gum to give gluten like effect.  Catfish reviewed the soy lecithin recipe above saying:
    Quoted Text
    Good Bread Recipe!! I have a lot of experience baking with splet and would like to give a little advise. When making spelt bread it is a good idea to add some Zanthan Gum (about 1 tsp. per cup of spelt) This will help it to rise better. Also keep in mind that spelt doesn't have gluten in it (the reason many people use it) so it will be a more dense bread. Don't be expecting a light fluffy loaf. If you are, find a different grain!! Great Recipe!!

    I notice Mastic and Guar gum are in SWAMI but not Xantham.  Xantham gum is grown on corn syrup so I guess it wouldn't rate well?!
  • I wonder if using molasses instead of honey may make the yeast rise a little slower?  Also if the yogurt (see link above) helps this one.  I know Cristina uses this recipe http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/recipedepictor7x.cgi?50 with success - which is the first one I'll try when I get my own bread maker!
  


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Changeling
Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 4:11am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Symbi:

Are you using 100% whole spelt flour?  That could be one reason why it 'caves.'  I have had excellent results using a 50/50 blend.

I also note that your liquid to dry ratio may be a bit high.  For 3 1/2 C. flour, you have 26 TB of liquid ingredients.  If we were to double your flour to bring it closer to my recipe (7 C.), your liquid ingredients would equal 52 TB, giving you almost an entire cup MORE liquid.  This could be the reason for the collapse of the loaf.

"Use the gluten free setting, or the fast bake setting which would have shorter kneading and rising times."
I have used the gluten-free setting on my bread machine, but was not happy with the finished texture of the loaf.  I found it coarse and crumbly.

"Add some dough enhancer.  This recipe http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Bread-Machine-Spelt-Bread/Detail.aspx  uses Soy Lecithin and I wondered why.  According to this page http://www.recipelink.com/cookbooks/2000/0811816869_3.html  Lecithin helps mixing and enhances gluten activity.  Also Gluten, Barley malt, or Vitamin C may help."

Spelt bread does not really need anything extra to help with the rise.  Additional gluten would help the structure of the bread, improving the integrity of the rise, but the texture would be a bit more rubbery.  Barley malt and Vitamin C would only assist with the raise creating the potential for an over-raise.

"Add some gum to give gluten like effect.  Catfish reviewed the soy lecithin recipe above saying:

    Quoted Text
    Good Bread Recipe!! I have a lot of experience baking with splet and would like to give a little advise. When making spelt bread it is a good idea to add some Zanthan Gum (about 1 tsp. per cup of spelt) This will help it to rise better. Also keep in mind that spelt doesn't have gluten in it (the reason many people use it) so it will be a more dense bread. Don't be expecting a light fluffy loaf. If you are, find a different grain!! Great Recipe!!  I notice Mastic and Guar gum are in SWAMI but not Xantham.  Xantham gum is grown on corn syrup so I guess it wouldn't rate well?!"


I also bake gluten-free bread and have found that both guar and xanthan work to create a "gluten-like" finished product when there is no gluten present.  Spelt however, DOES contain gluten as it is a sub-species of wheat - Triticum aestivum var spelta.  Wheat is defined as: Triticum aestivum.  Thus, mastic, guar or xanthan gums are not needed.

"I wonder if using molasses instead of honey may make the yeast rise a little slower?  Also if the yogurt (see link above) helps this one.  I know Cristina uses this recipe http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/recipedepictor7x.cgi?50  with success - which is the first one I'll try when I get my own bread maker!"

I don't know about the yogurt, but sugar provides the necessary food for yeast so that it can doe its job.  So as long as some type of simple sugar is provided, be it honey, molasses, brown sugar, rice syrup, agave, etc. the rise will be the same.

While there is little doubt that either a bread machine or stand mixer would make the creation of this bread a bit easier, you don't really have to wait to try it.  For years, I made bread by hand and certainly, it could be done if you want to give it a go.  

My non-bread machine spelt bread recipe is as follows:

3 C. whole spelt flour
3 C. white spelt flour
(Up to 1 additional cup of flour as needed to prevent stickiness)
1 1/2 C. hot water (110 degrees)
1/3 C. oil (5 1/3 TB)
1/3 C. honey (5 1/3 TB)
1 TB yeast
1 TB salt

Add the honey and yeast to the hot water and allow to proof.  In mixing bowl combine 1 C. whole spelt, 1 C. white spelt, salt and oil.  Blend until smooth.  Add proofed yeast and remaining flour (one cup at a time) and continue adding until dough rounds into a smooth ball.  

I usually make my spelt bread in my mixer with a dough hook.  I continually check the dough to be sure that it is not too wet since the more wet the dough, the more likely it is to collapse.  So if need be, I add additional flour.  

Once the correct texture is accomplished (not dry nor sticky), I place the dough ball into a greased bowl to raise until double.  I do NOT try to hasten the raise, preferring a slow raise.  I then punch down the dough and allow to raise again.  I punch the dough down one more time, shape into TWO loaves and place each into a 8 1/2 x 4 1/2 greased bread pan.

Allow to raise until dough is about 1 1/2" above rim of pan.  Heat oven to 350.  Bake 30 minutes or until bread registers 190-200 degrees.  If your dough doesn't reach that range, it will remain wet and collapse.

Remove bread to cooling racks to cool completely before slicing.

The rise is excellent and the texture of this bread is superb.  Using this recipe, I've never had a failure.

Changeling
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Cristina
Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 4:38am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sorry, i still got the photos in the  camera, I will post here (check reply 114):
http://www.dadamo.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-btdlf1/m-1277859580/s-114/
as soon as I can.

This last spelt bread I made with no kneading, no commercial yeast at all, no yogurt, no sweetness, no bread enhancer.  Just plain old organic, white spelt flour.  I did not use bread machine and I baked it in a casserole dish.  The bread rised to the top of the dish in a matter of (from 8:30pm to 4:30am) 8 hours.  The casserole dish is about 11cm high ...  

Symbi, keep trying, take your time, you may want to start making your own bread dough starter to make your breads, instead of commercial yeast.  It produces a sort of sour taste bread which I find delicious, but my nonnie DD, although loves the texture, she is still getting used to the taste, so she tops it with peanut butter or ghee and honey, and loves it that way!  Just in case you think it is a 'nonnie' thing, my hubby, also nonnie, loves it!!  We are all tasters or supertasters too!!! To each their own (where did I hear that before?).

Mmmm, we should have a bread making weekend somewhere, a few of us, get together and create a flour storm!!!




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Munchkin76
Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 7:14am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Symbi

Welcome back - I hope you had a fab holiday with your Mum!!

I see there is already loads of great advice to help you along with your bread baking.  I've had huge success with the recipe (slightly adapted from the recipe base here) that I posted earlier in this thread.  I use a rapid bake cycle and it turns out fantastic - ligtht and fluffy (like wheat bread) when using 100% white spelt.  I have successfully made a, slightly more dense but equally delicious, loaf using up to 50% whole spelt flour too.  The recipe has grape juice as a sweetener (I reduced the original amount as the bread was too sweet for my tastes and substituted extra water) and no eggs and it's really good.

As Changeling said, spelt does have it's own gluten (albeit less than modern wheat) and I've never needed to add any gum to make it rise well - even when baking my own by hand.  Happy (maniacal   experimenting)!

Let us know how you get on.

Andy


Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely. CHINESE PROVERB

Andy Pandy��


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Symbi
Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 1:37am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I think you're right, Changeling, couldn't see the forest for the trees, that recipe I used maybe had too much liquid!  and that might be why it collapsed.  Really liked the moist result even though it caved in!   Still I'd like to try adding some lecithin or allowable? gum to bread to experiment with different recipes.

I've been making spelt bread by hand for many months now.  I found the basic recipe (very similar to yours Changeling - slightly more liquid though and uses butter/ghee instead of oil http://www.thenewhomemaker.com/node/69439) too dry especially after freezing.  A tip for freezing is, when cooled wrap in foil and then plastic to keep the moisture in.

Then I made Spelt loaf 2 from here http://www.makeitandbakeit.com.au/spelt_bread.htm is beaut with pumpkin and spices.  Nice and moist.  

Since then I've been replacing some of the liquid with heavy moist ingredients like yogurt, pumpkin, banana, rice milk, eggs which made it lots better.
  
Except the last loaf I made wouldn't rise well in the cold, so had to rise it in the oven and maybe I over-rose it because after the second rise it stayed flat (or had it been run over?)     

Sick of having baking take all day (difficult when dropping/picking up children from school and other commitments) and making a huge mess all over the kitchen and feeling like the bread is too precious to share around as it take me so much energy to make (with chronic fatigue).  Hence wanting a bread maker and my birthday is coming up.  

Some people may like a dry loaf and like Jenny says it makes great toast.  You may already know this my diabetic mate Jenny, toasting the bread lowers the GI of bread! and it tastes good too!

Munchkin - G'day mate, had a good holiday thanks!
Glad you make your own nice healthy bread, so when am I invited over? he he That grape juice recipe looks good but I'm not sure where to get white grape juice (not fermented anyway!  ). I wonder if red grape juice would be ok?

Cristina - that bread of yours is TBG!  Good on ya.  Lucky people in your house.  It would be good to have a baking party.  We could be the triple D's.  D'Adamo Dough Devotees!


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Symbi
Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 1:40am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Oh a question, Changeling, last handmade loaf of mine by hand that collapsed I also mixed for the first time using a dough hook.  Do you think it's possible to over mix?  How long do you mix yours for?  
It seemed to take longer to mix than it would by hand so I reduced the kneading time.  I wonder if that's why it gave up rising.  I was using a recipe that I'd used before successfully.

When I add those heavy liquid ingredients I like the result but the dough becomes very sticky and hard to work with sticking to the bench and all. So I thought a breadmaker would help with that.

Each loaf seems to have a life of it's own!  


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Cristina
Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 5:53am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Symbi: Yes, you are right there.  Each is a unique experience and it can be very entertaining at times, but, as you are finding out, also, a bit tiring.  When that happens, (getting tiring), it is time to go to the basics, simplicity wins the day.  Make sure you do not overdo it in the kitchen, look after yourself!!

BTW, quite a detective work you are doing with your breads ... I am sure you will soon get to the bottom of it, or is it the 'top' (as in rising) of it ...   DDD!!!




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Symbi
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he he   DDD member who makes AAA bread, thanks! from the top of my bread.  True time to go back to basics.  Spelt is so yummy anyway no matter what we do with it!

Just realised why i feel so cruddy and am starting a new thread (normally I just hijack others - well because I don't like having too many threads on the same subject - what am I an octopus?!).  Am bidding on a Breville Breadmaker today wish me luck!


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Changeling
Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 12:40pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Symbi
Oh a question, Changeling, last handmade loaf of mine by hand that collapsed I also mixed for the first time using a dough hook.  Do you think it's possible to over mix?  How long do you mix yours for?  
It seemed to take longer to mix than it would by hand so I reduced the kneading time.  I wonder if that's why it gave up rising.  I was using a recipe that I'd used before successfully.

When I add those heavy liquid ingredients I like the result but the dough becomes very sticky and hard to work with sticking to the bench and all. So I thought a breadmaker would help with that.

Each loaf seems to have a life of it's own!  


I have read that it IS possible to overwork spelt dough, given the relatively fragile/unstable nature of the protein strands, but I would also say that if the dough is not worked enough, then the gluten will not be sufficiently developed and that could also compromise the structural integrity of the loaf.  

I can tell you that when I was having major collapsing of yeast dough, regular -OR- spelt, it was usually due to the amount of liquid ingredients in the recipe.  I used to use a bread machine and had poor success with spelt; it always collapsed...so maddening!!! But even reducing the amount of liquid did not resolve the problem (I actually think it was just a bad recipe.)  So when I purchased a small stand mixer, I began experimenting with the dough hook.

Although my instructions said to knead the dough about 10 mins., I found that the dough was still too sticky. So when it collapsed after baking (it was really humid that day too), I knew that the amount of liquid was probably the culprit.  The next time I baked (under similar conditions), I reduced the water by 1/2 cup.  Then instead of depending on a preset amount of time to knead, I used the "touch" method to determine when the dough was 'finished.'

When the baked loaves did NOT collapse, I knew I was onto something and have patterned my yeast baking to that method ever since.  If the spelt recipe calls for 2 C. of water, I hold back at least 1/2 C. and even with that adjustment, I still sometimes need to add additional flour until the dough is no longer sticky.  And yes...on some days, it does indeed feel like an eternity, but as you stated, each loaf seems to have a mind of its own!

Although I still don't believe you need to add gums (xanthan/guar) or emulsifiers (lecithin), if you decide to experiment, I would be very interested to hear your results.  Good for you on researching what it takes to produce a lovely loaf of delicious bread.  Most home bakers really don't have the time nor patience to see it through.  Cooking may be an art, but baking is definitely a science and when faced with baking dilemmas, I sometimes feel like I should have a PhD  

Changeling
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Cristina
Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 1:23pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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My recent experiences, which are heavily documented in these forums in recent days, are leading me to the conclusion that whether spelt bread rises or collapses does not have anything to do with the amount of kneading.  I have a recent experience where I let a dough sit all night to find it early in the morning double in size, to the top of my bread machine tray.  I was just about to press the bake button, but ended up pressing the punch down instead!!! So,  i then let the whole process start again, kneading, proving and baking on its own. This triple kneading and rising process produced a pretty high, almost to the top of the tray this time, very light although a bit more crumbier than usual bread! Still lovelly!!

My recent bread loaves have risen to magnificiency, with hardly any kneading at all, just using a fork to mix the liquid and flour and then  finish gathering the rest of the flour into the dough by hand for a couple of minutes.  The resulting breads are dense, but still light and not cumbry at all!  Previous attempts pale compare to the loaves I am getting now, which is understandable because my starter was a bit immature in my earlier attempts    It has now grown in its complexity ... or maybe is the fact that now I am known to have boosted the bread starter with a couple of Polyflora caps ...  

So, in my experience, the quality of the starter (or yeast for those using commercial yeast versions) and the amount of liquid will determine whether the bread rises to expectations or not  ...

BTW, somewhere out there on the web they say that the tradition of kneading the bread a lot, came from the need from the aristocrat to have a nice, smooth crust, rather than the uneven, crater like crust of natural no knead breads ...  




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Stooshy
Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 8:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I hope you have a great time with your new machine Symbi, with 5 kids it is really awesome!
I have succeeded once with a 100% Whole Grain Spelt Recipe. I have my next one in as we speak. The first one was very slightly collapsed (Flat with a crack across) but tasted amazing. I am challenging myself to get this perfect ! I had been using 4 1/8 cups flour : 1 1/3 cup water. I read that when the loaf rises and collapses you need to do the following: Increase flour (1-2 Tbls), decrease liquid (1-2 Tbls), decrease yeast (1/4 tsp). I think it helps if the flour is very fresh. Some stores have not much "movement" of Spelt so you have to be careful. I buy in bulk from a health food store that is very frest.

I increased my Whole Grain flour to 4 1/4 cups + 1 Tbls Flour
I added 1 Tbls Honey and 1.5 tsp of Lecitin, Also put in 2 Tbls of Olive Oil and 1.5 tsp salt
I kept yeast at 2 tsp.

I can program my cycle. I programmed the knead to 15 minutes. Peaking in the machine it already looks very kneaded at 10. So I may cut it down to 10 min if it collapses again.
I lengthened baked time from 62 mins to 67 mins!

Wish me luck!!!
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Jenny
Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 10:49pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Good luck with your breadmaker bid and birthday too Symbi!!!
Thanks for the info re lowering Gt by toasting. I have been surprised by the number of people who are using white spelt, and suddenly realized that I should give 50% of plain and whole and see how it goes. Bet it has a better texture.
The main challenge for me in getting the recipe right is the fact that the sour starter is half/half liquid and flour. Keeping that ratio in mind whilst adjusting the recipe is important. I too have had over liquified dough and the consequent collapse.
Wonderful how many of us are doing the bread thing these days. Back to the future.
ps time we started planning that Oz get together that Cristina has flagged.



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Stooshy
Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 11:59pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Cristina, i looked through your fermentation thread and could not see the basic starter you use. Yogurt and Soy are both avoids for me. Can I use just Whole Grain Spelt Bread and Water, I can add honey as well...
Maybe I just missed the first basic directions - could you please direct me where they are?
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Jenny
Thursday, July 15, 2010, 1:12am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I know Cristina will reply quickly but I can add my bit of experience too.
I cook for an Explorer so know that you will not want to use rye much being a black dot, but apparently (I don't know the reference) the rye transmogrifies in the starter (my word) so it becomes less of a problem. Rye is known to be a good starter so that is what I use. I cup rye, 1 cup pure/distilled/bottled/filtered water, tepid, with a little honey to help it get going, but the honey may not be necessary; adding equal parts of flour and water each day will help it move quickly but this means that you end up with far too much starter after a few days unless you are cooking for a family; so I tend to add only a tablespoon of water and flour each day. I now leave it on the counter, have stopped fussing with heaters and things. After several uses, it seems to be very rich in yeasties, and froths up easily. At the moment the left over from my last cook-up is sleeping in the fridge, but in a couple of days it will come out again and after a couple of days feeding it will be ready for the next loaf. As an experiment I will do a spelt starter, so will look forward to your experiences.



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Cristina
Thursday, July 15, 2010, 2:03am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Jenny
...
Wonderful how many of us are doing the bread thing these days. Back to the future.
ps time we started planning that Oz get together that Cristina has flagged.


Wonderful indeed!! Great analogy there Jenny with that 'Back to the Future' expression ... our previous generations, out of necessity or choice, they were much more in contact with these home skills for the better of our health.  Then we got lazy or too busy and needed someone else to do that for us... which would have been oK provided that somebody else would have continued supplying us with the goods as intended, without the 'improvers', additives, chemicals ....   They took control of our food for the better of their pocket while we were distracted from paying attention by an overload of stimulus from progress in communication (TV, deceiving advertisement, useless essential gadgets ...)  

I volunteer my place for the DDD meeting.  We will soon have better storage which could free at least one of the rooms in the house for our guests ...  May not be ready for aother month or two, I will keep you posted ... Have to wait for DD and kids to move to the new accommodation at the back of the house when ready ...

I am so excited you think it is a great idea!!  We will have fresh free range eggs from my hens, some fresh vegies from our AP system and fruits from the orchard, including our golden lemons for our morning warm water shots ...

The beach and cafes and not too far away either ...  





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Cristina
Thursday, July 15, 2010, 2:47am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Stooshy, I will have to check those threads ... It had been an evolving adventure for me ... started with the complex, but now, it is just the simple that is working best for me ...

At the moment I placed inside a casserole dish snuggled in a warm place, waiting to double in size, a dough made of just rice flour using buckwheat flour for the starter.  This is part of the experiment I started with Andy the other night ... Will post details soon.

Regarding the Spelt grain starter, just follow Jennys suggestions, the only thing I add is that sometimes different batches of flour react differently and if it gets too runny, reduce amount of liquid used, or add more flour.  It should be the consistency of thick pancake batter.  

I keep any excess starter in a couple of different containers in the fridge, just in case something goes wrong with one, I have backups standing by ...  then the real excess finds its may into my plate in the form of eggs and vegies fertilized with the composting and warm farming home processing ...  

I currently got into the habit of adding a Polyflora cap, directly to all my starters.  This seems to speed things up a bit.  If you have them at home use them for this, if not, order some, and let their goodness multiply on your fermented food!!! There is one for each blood type anyway!!  

But, if you do not have the Polyflora, you should still get a good starter going, by just using Spelt flour and water.  White Spelt flour starts quicker than the wholewheat type.   Experiment and keep us posted!!!  You will soon find your unique workable formula suitable to your home environment ... The wonders of home fermenting ... all equally different in process and outcome, yet all  extraordinarily healthy for us ...  




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Munchkin76
Thursday, July 15, 2010, 6:18am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Symbi - sorry for the tardy response here, have been working out of town the last couple of days.  Yes, I have successfully used red grape juice (instead of white) the last time I made the recipe.  It turned out fine and, despite my fears, the bread did not turn out pink!

Cristina, you're amazing!  Can't wait to hear how the buckwheat/rice batch comes out!!

Andy  


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Symbi
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Thanks Munchkin!  Will try your recipe soon with red grape juice, thanks.  Scored a second-hand bread maker today!  It makes sandwich sized loafs which will be good for the whole family.  After a clean up I'll be ready to try it out.  Strangely the former owners seemed to store the kneading blade in vinegar.  You'd think white vinegar?  no apple cider vinegar which smells very strongly.  It will have a flavour for a while!  

DDD meeting sounds great, thanks for offering your place Cristina, sounds beaut.  I have a little one in school and some commitments though, the school holidays would be best for me.  

Jenny - you're welcome, back to the future alright!  It's great that everyone's getting back to basics and going towards sustainable living these days.  Thanks for the birthday wishes.  I think you'll like wholemeal spelt it adds lovely flavour and texture.

Dr Changeling - no worries mate.  When I think of it I end up adding lots of extra spelt flour while I'm kneading so it makes sense that the bread machine recipe will need extra flour.  I'll keep experimenting. Have made pizza dough by hand and lovely muffins with spelt before.  Since I don't have normal wheat anymore it's important to me to have a good result.

Stooshy - best of luck with sourdough.


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Cristina
Thursday, July 15, 2010, 11:01am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Birthday wishes?  did I miss something here?  Went back to read the posts, cant find reference to it ... but I am very very tired after a great night at puppy school!!! Lots of workout and very exicting night!!!

So, belated happy birthday on order?  Sorry mate if I missed it?  ...

School hols sounds great! have to check the hol dates ....    

Glad you got your breadmaker,  I am looking forward to your experiments ...




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Munchkin76
Thursday, July 15, 2010, 11:17am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ooh, yes - happy birthday Symbi !

Sorry, I seemed to have missed it too!

Glad the breadmaker mischief has been managed for you!

((((hugs))))

Andy  


Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely. CHINESE PROVERB

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Symbi
Thursday, July 15, 2010, 12:29pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Thanks guys!  I mentioned it above as the bread maker is like an early birthday gift to myself.  Somehow I seem to know the best gifts to get myself  


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Changeling
Thursday, July 15, 2010, 1:38pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Symbi
Thanks guys!  I mentioned it above as the bread maker is like an early birthday gift to myself.  Somehow I seem to know the best gifts to get myself  


Yes...isn't it amazing how we know?  

Happy (early) b'day Symbi!

Changeling
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SandrAruba
Thursday, July 15, 2010, 7:31pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I finally found it. I knew I had a spelt bread recipe for bread machine somewhere. I got it from this website and it's great!!! Here you go:
Spelt bread

Put all the ingredients into the machine in the right order, and just add some flaxseed and walnuts after 20 minutes (the machine gives a beeeppp!!) and then I just wait and enjoy the aroma around the house.
If you guys (I mean mostly gals!) want a recipe, made of speltflour, I will give you below the recipe I use. Please replace speltflour for any flour you can tolerate.
Okay here we go:
for a loaf of 1,5 lb you put into the machine:
1  1/8 cup of water (cup is an accessory with the machine!)
lecithine, powder of granules 1,5 tablespoon (is also an accessory!)
walnutoil (or any other you can have!) 2 table spoons
sugar/honey or vegetable glycerine: 2,5 table spoons
salt: 1  1/4 teaspoon
speltflour or any other flour 3 cups
yeast (dry) 1 1/4 teaspoon
vitamin Ccapsule (cut it and pour the powder!) 1 x 100 mg
and add 1 teaspoon of baking powder...

I select the shortest programme; 2,50 hours
after 20 minutes the machine gives a beep and I add 3/4 cup of chopped walnuts and 2 tablespoons of whole linseeds..




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tnahowru
Thursday, July 15, 2010, 8:11pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Thank You Sandr!!!

Now I just need a replacement for baking powder (avoid)???, however baking soda is not an avoid.


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tnahowru
Thursday, July 15, 2010, 8:12pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Symbi, when was your birthday? mine was 7/11.


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SandrAruba
Thursday, July 15, 2010, 8:18pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from tnahowru
Thank You Sandr!!!

Now I just need a replacement for baking powder (avoid)???, however baking soda is not an avoid.


Make sure you put it in the machine in the order mentioned, so first water, then the lecithine, then the oil etc.




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Symbi
Thursday, July 15, 2010, 11:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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SandrAruba - thanks for the recipe!  I heard that vitamin C helps the yeast rise.  It certainly helps me too  

Quoted from tnahowru
Thank You Sandr!!!

Now I just need a replacement for baking powder (avoid)???, however baking soda is not an avoid.


The recipes on here are all yeasted breads.  If you are making soda bread you would use the yeast free setting on your BM (no kneading).  To replace baking powder you could use baking soda with an acid to react against like lemon juice or yogurt.  

Quoted from tnahowru
Symbi, when was your birthday? mine was 7/11.


It's not till the 22nd but (shh) never too early or late to start celebrating    


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Cristina
Friday, July 16, 2010, 3:57am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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two days after mine!!! we should have a cyber party!!!  




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Symbi
Friday, July 16, 2010, 6:19am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Wow!  So you are a cancerian too (I prefer the term thrombosis  ).  Do you feel the moon affects you changing signs every few days?  I feel I do.  My DD is also cancerian and had her 5th bithday end of last month.  We had a beaut carob spelt cake and a great winter party around the fire and shed outside with chicken soup and roast and the family band played music.  Before all that we took her out to the markets for a go down a big slide and jumping castle and other treats.  Then a few days later we went on holidays and she had another party in Darwin!  It is a great time of year to have parties, I pity those born near Christmas, like my Mum and Aunty.

Sorry for going way off topic here...  So here's something slightly on topic.. Bought some soy lecithin granules from the HFS for baking and adding to cereal and shakes I guess!  Can't get it in Woolworths any more, it used to be available there.  Will post news of my own BM first loaf hopefully tonight!


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Cristina
Friday, July 16, 2010, 8:51am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Symbi!! it all sounds delicious!!! make me want to jump out of the screen into your gathering and share a yarn or two around that camp fire!!   It sounds the kids had a fun time indeed!!!  

Looking forward to hearing about that bread making adventure!!

My son was born in December, maybe that is why he enjoys surfing, what else to do then but be near the sea?

And, I am Leo, the roaring lion ... by a couple of days I think ... that is all I know about astrology ... never dwelled much in it, although it sounds fascinating ...

Nice to share the same month ...  cyber party started already!!




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Symbi
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Thanks, it was fun.  Surfing is a great pastime.  
Oh yes let the party begin!  

Leo hey that fits with living on the sunny coast!

My first BM loaf was great.  Used the molasses/soy milk recipe from typebase.  Except I substituted 1/4 cup yogurt and almond milk instead of soy milk.  The almond milk gave a good flavour.  It came out nicely textured, rose nicely and IT DIDN'T FALL IN!  Maybe a little burnt on the sides, as the machine doesn't have settings for smaller loaves must remove it before the end of baking cycle and follow my nose.  The machine manual recipes have water and milk powder and says you can substitute milk.  I'll use substitute milk (almond, rice etc.)  Also added two teaspoons of soy lecithin and that may have helped it rise so well!

Saw a tip online that if you end up with dry edges in your loaf, the first 30 seconds of mixing, open the top and help it along using a chop stick to get all the flour from around the outside.

DH and DD are enjoying spelt bread so I can see all of us switching to spelt!  It will be easy to make now and I like the sandwich sized loaves it makes, (vertical) that's a good size.  DH will give up fruit cake and I'll be able to make fruit loaf instead.  


INFJ ex-Ghee Whiz, GTD Explorer Sept_09 - SWAMI Mar_10

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Cristina
Sunday, July 18, 2010, 5:23am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Sounds great Symbi.  Your loaves sound yummy!! Fruit bread loaf instead of of the fruit cake sounds like a great trade!!  

The chopstick tip is great!  I have been using a fork for that but it is not long enough and cumbersome in the corners!

I have got two loaves in the rising stage at the moment (well hoping to rise).  A buckwheat, flax, almond, honey, barley malt with buckwheat starter instead of yeast and also my usual spelt bread loaf with just spelt starter and flour.  Love baking!!  




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Changeling
Sunday, July 18, 2010, 2:55pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Congrats Symbi and may I say...WELL done!!!

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Wholefoodie
Sunday, July 18, 2010, 3:15pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted Text
Now I just need a replacement for baking powder (avoid)???, however baking soda is not an avoid.


I have used this substitute for baking powder with success from the Recipe data base:

http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/recipedepictor7x.cgi?6

Lisa


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Symbi
Monday, July 19, 2010, 2:24am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Thanks Changeling!

"A buckwheat, flax, almond, honey, barley malt with buckwheat starter instead of yeast"  Sounds really yummy and healthy Cristina!

Speaking of substitutes.  I saw online that you can get bread enhancers that have alternatives to wheat gluten.  A quick search and I found this one:

Quoted Text
This product will improve the rise, texture, and shelf life of whole grain breads. Natural ingredients include, lecithin, ascorbic acid and ginger. Lecithin improves aeration, improves tenderness, and provides resistance to staling. Ascorbic acid and ginger acts as yeast activators allowing a maximum yeast yield. Use ¼ teaspoon per cup of flour.
Ingredients: soy lecithin, ascorbic acid, tapioca, gingerhttp://www.glutenfree-supermarket.com/detail.aspx?ID=4


No reason why we can't try that at home.  Was thinking of adding arrowroot or tapioca next loaf as well as the lecithin as it may help the stretchiness.  Time to make another loaf today so I'll try that.  


INFJ ex-Ghee Whiz, GTD Explorer Sept_09 - SWAMI Mar_10

Family - O+ DH and DD (both hunter-ish)
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Lola
Monday, July 19, 2010, 3:23am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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glad you have no trouble with ascorbic acid


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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Cristina
Monday, July 19, 2010, 4:17am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Symbi
...

"A buckwheat, flax, almond, honey, barley malt with buckwheat starter instead of yeast"  Sounds really yummy and healthy Cristina!

...  


I agree on the healthy, but , although it may sound yummy, I will have to use the other 'y' word for that one, 'yuk'!!! I think the problem was the gumminess, the flax seed did that, maybe I overdone it with the flaxmeal, too much of it!! I do not like the ocnsistency, too dense, texture too guymmy, taste buckwheat strongest, no sourness, but bitterness ... Oh well, win some, lose some ... Maybe if I would have used the rice flour instead of almond flour, it would have come more balanced,   but decided to go for the almond flour ... Do not try that combo, it certainly did not work for me...

I am in a hurry now, but there are so many bread threads around, that I donot know anymore where I started this one, hope Andy finds it ... Will be back later tonight ...  




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Symbi
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Hey it's worth trying, I'm sure you'll come up with a winning taste combination next time!   Thanks for the warning!


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