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Teeth into Carabelli's Cusp & Incisor Shovelling  This thread currently has 11,510 views. Print Print Thread
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Symbi
Monday, August 24, 2009, 3:15am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
Posts: 1,252
Gender: Female
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Age: 39
Yesterday I did some more research on these two topics as I was having trouble deciding if I have them or not.

Carabelli's Cusp  

In the book it shows that the first molar (5th from the middle) is where it can be found hitchiking.  On the Wikipedia entry it says they can also (rarely) be found on the seoond and third molars.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cusp_of_Carabelli  

When I first got the book on first excited fast read through and mad measuring session, I thought I had one.  Second pass, I have a carabelli's cusp on my second molar (6th from the middle).  There's always one out of the norm!

Do carabelli's cusps found second and third molars count for genotyping purposes?


Incisor Shovelling

I have very minor shovelling and needed to see more examples.  So I did some searching of teeth images (my husband thought I was crackers and I probably am!).  

Found this:

Quoted Text
Finally, a feature of the teeth can be used to distinguish Asians from the other two groups. This is the shovel-shaped incisor, which is formed by raised edges on the lingual side of these teeth (Figure 7. 9b). This variation stands in marked contrast to the flat lingual surface of the incisors of other groups (Figure 7.9a). Shoveling is particularly common on the upper central incisors; however, all other anterior teeth (including occasionally the canines) can exhibit this trait, although usually to a lesser degree. In some cases, the ridges can be so well devel≠oped that the tooth is barrel shaped; in other cases, the labial side can exhibit raised edges. This trait appears in approximately 90% of Asians and Native Amer≠icans, but occurs only in low frequency in Whites and Blacks (Le., less than 15 %).

FIGURE 7.9 Variation of the lingual surface of the incisors:
(a) spatulate in Whites and Blacks;

(b) shovel-shaped in Asians  

Source: Introduction to Forensic Anthropology http://www.geocities.com/censors/RACE/BYERS7.htm
Photos by Julie R. Angel; specimens courtesy of the State of New Mexico, Office of the Medical Investigator


The race correlations are interesting according to the above document.  There are many studies about the different frequencies of incisor shovelling by race http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2212205

This study was most interesting Ethnic dental analysis of shovel and Carabelliís traits in a Chinese populationhttp://www.carabelli.com/pdfs/carabelli.pdf  
It confirms that carabelli's cusp is more frequently found in Europe and that shovelling more commonly in Asians.  It also says that among mongoloid populations it warrants further study that both traits may be more commonly found.

Maybe I have mongoloid in my ancestry maybe having both minor teeth shovelling and carabelli's cusp on the 2nd molar.

I hope the info and picture above might help people decide if they have CC or shovelling too.


INFJ ex-Ghee Whiz, GTD Explorer Sept_09 - SWAMI Mar_10

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Magess
Monday, August 24, 2009, 3:54am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Wow! I'd be kind of freaked out if my teeth were shaped like the second image. Thank you for finding this. I tried researching it when I first got the book but couldn't find any pictures for comparison.

I can now definitely say that I don't have shoveling in my teeth.
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Symbi
Monday, August 24, 2009, 4:05am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ee Dan
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I Think that's an extreme version of shovelling.  Magress - you're right it is scary.

My teeth are somewhere between the top and bottom picture.  They have nice serations and and very slight concavity.  They are great for meat eating.  

Tonight I'm going to have a steak for the first time in a long time!  Yum!  (sorry to anyone who can't eat red meat anymore, one mans food is another one's poison though!)  

I had a poll attached to this but it dropped off while I was editing and previewing unfortunately.  Love to know if anyone else has both CC and Shovelling or CC on a further back molar.  I feel lucky to have such good tools for eating!


INFJ ex-Ghee Whiz, GTD Explorer Sept_09 - SWAMI Mar_10

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Heidi
Monday, August 24, 2009, 2:22pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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My daughters, whom I believe to be Warriors, both have the Cusps. They are on the second molars (6th tooth from the front) and very easily seen when looking at their orthodonic retainers. They have no shoveling. I've got the shoveling and no cusps.







Rh-, ISFP, Super Taster, Non-Secretor 52% SWAMI-XP'd Explorer.

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dcs60
Monday, August 24, 2009, 2:41pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Wow!  Awesome pictures!!  Mine are definitely NOT that dramatic.

As I am sitting here looking at these, wondering if I have shovelling or cusps, I just realized that I have a dental mold of my teeth at home (for some dental work I had done).  Instead of trying to jam a mirror in my mouth, I can just look at those!!  I saw them this morning and thought I should really throw them out, but I'm definitely going to give them a good examination when I get home.  


Green - INTJ

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I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do."

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Gale D.
Monday, August 24, 2009, 6:42pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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The picture speaks a thousand words, thanks.

I have extremely minor enhanced marginal ridges at the top of 2 teeth; however, it's about 1/6th the width of the ridges in the photos, and cupping is minor. I have found some evidence of Native American ancestry, but by the time it gets to me, it's about 1/16th.

One might think these normal teeth are shoveled, but compared to real shoveling, it's clear they are not:



Here's a good reading site:

http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/10_1Non-Metric.htm




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Symbi
Tuesday, August 25, 2009, 3:06am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Thanks for the interesting reading D_Gale19.  

You may not have shovels as marked as the first picture above.  Some academics use a 7 grade system for Tooth shovelling (Turner et. al. 1991) from none to extreme.  There's a picture of the grades of shovelling on page two of http://ejournal.anu.edu.au/index.php/bippa/article/viewFile/119/109 pretty unclear picture unfortunately but all I could find.

D_Gale19 - Nice pic, where did you get that from is it your dental model? I guess the shovelling may be 2 or 3 on the scale. What does everyone else think?

Found another study on the degrees of carabelli's cusp, it can be just a groove or a pit as you can see in picture on the link!  Mine is very pronounced, can feel it with my teeth.  http://jmg.bmj.com/cgi/pdf_extract/9/3/336

Heidi, interesting how you teeth are so different from your daughters and fits with your genotypes.  Dr D is right onto something here!  I'm enjoying looking up anthropology, it's fascinating.

dcs60 - look forward to hearing about what your tooth model shows.  


INFJ ex-Ghee Whiz, GTD Explorer Sept_09 - SWAMI Mar_10

Family - O+ DH and DD (both hunter-ish)
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dcs60
Tuesday, August 25, 2009, 5:05pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

I am a WARRIOR!!
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Age: 54
Found some great pics on incisor shovelling and Carabelli's cusp here:

http://images.google.ca/imgres.....en%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1
Scroll down the page until you get to Figure #4 - click on it and you'll get the "big picture"!!

I didn't have a chance to check my models, but from what I can remember (and feel with my tongue  ), I have neither.  I don't think that this will alter my genotype.


Green - INTJ

I am only one, but I am one.
I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do."

~Edward Everett Hale~
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JWP
Wednesday, September 9, 2009, 11:26pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Hello All, and Thanks for Reading

I have to say, I thought I was the only crazy one with the measuring absolutely everyone, myself included, checking, rechecking and double-checking. Thank you all, because now I don't feel completely alone and weird

Ghee- I don't have anything on my 5th molar, but I have Carabelli's cusp pretty strong on the 6th molar too, and not a strong one, a bump with a groove underneath on the 7th molar. NO wisdom teeth as they had to come out. I now know (thanks to you all) that I have little to no shovelling, although I thought I had shovelling until I looked at these pictures. If I do, it's very mild.

I counted my cusp for my genotyping purposes, because I figured, alright- I have an extra cusp on a molar. What does it really matter that it's on the 6th rather than the 5th?

Walk in Peace and Power
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Lola
Thursday, September 10, 2009, 12:19am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ribbit
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Quoted from Symbi


Love to know if anyone else has both CC and Shovelling or CC on a further back molar.


I do.  Cusp on very back molars on top and shoveling on several teeth.


ISTJ, BTD since 5/05.  Battling chronic Lyme disease since ~1985.

"Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial..."  I Corinthians 6:12

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Symbi
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Ribbit - "All the better to eat you with" said the big bad wolf.   oops been reading lots of stories to my yungun.

JWP  - thanks for sharing.  I counted my 6th molar cusp for genotyping purposes too.  Glad I'm not the only one checking things twice!  Many people on the forums have changed genotypes so don't worry.  




INFJ ex-Ghee Whiz, GTD Explorer Sept_09 - SWAMI Mar_10

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Gale D.
Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 6:54pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I found this photo that shows Carabelli's Cusp on the outside of the molar:





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mikendomsmum
Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 7:32pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I have the cusps on the 2nd molars too but not on the first.  I have shoveling, not to the extent of the top photo but definitely there.  
We only put YES if the cusp is on the 1st molar, though, right?


Karen
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DoS
Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 8:18pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from mikendomsmum
  
We only put YES if the cusp is on the 1st molar, though, right?


That was my assumption, but otherwise my teeth have extra cusp after the 5th.

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JJR
Friday, September 25, 2009, 11:03pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Huh, so I wonder if we have them further back if we're supposed to answer yes?  I definitely do not have shoveling.  It's more like the very first pic.  Nice and smooth.


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Ribbit
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I had my SWAMI stuff filled out at the Oct conference in TN by the experts, Lola and Dr. C.  My very back molars on the top have the cusps, and I was interested to see if that qualified.  On my SWAMI material that came back, it is listed as Carabelli's Cusp:  yes.


ISTJ, BTD since 5/05.  Battling chronic Lyme disease since ~1985.

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Symbi
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Thanks Ribbit!  So we can count Caribellis cusp anywhere on the molars.  


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Ribbit
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That's my assumption.

Unless something's changed.


ISTJ, BTD since 5/05.  Battling chronic Lyme disease since ~1985.

"Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial..."  I Corinthians 6:12

Family: 3 As, 1 B, 1 AB, 1 O
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benandbecca
Monday, July 11, 2011, 1:58am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I am confused because I only see the Carabelli's cusp listed on the Explorer Genotype page, but on the Genotype Test Kit, it gives my hubby extra points for the Warrior Genotype if he has the cusps. He definitely has them on the 6 tooth from the center, but appears to be the first molar. So, isn't this primarily an Explorer trait based on this? http://www.genotypediet.com/explorer.shtml  I think my hubby fits the Explorer profile more than the Warrior profile, but I am not sure.
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cajun
Monday, July 11, 2011, 10:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I have the cusps on my first molars or tooth number 6... as a dentist would count back from the first front incisor,2nd incisor,canine, first bicuspid, 2nd bi, then first molar.
No tooth shoveling.


 Ao  ISFJ   Taster   Rh+  

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Eric
Tuesday, July 12, 2011, 6:55am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Good question.  Working on an instructional DVD, and wondered about that when scripting the part about teeth.  I didn't mention anything about the 5th molar, because the actor we found has a cusp farther back... so I assume it can be anywhere?  Hope so, because I can't afford to pay a new voiceover! lol


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cajun
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Molars are first , second and third. So the "fifth" tooth is a second bicuspid.
Numbering (or charting) the teeth is done either by quadrants...Tooth # 1 = left upper, left lower, right upper, right lower incisor, etc....or by maxilla(upper)# 1-16 and mandible(lower) #17-32.


 Ao  ISFJ   Taster   Rh+  

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LuceBCN
Thursday, July 28, 2011, 12:30pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Hi, sorry to reactivate this thread but I've got a question about the Carabelli's cusps.

Do they count if they are on the lower teeth? I don't have them on my upper molars but I do have them on all of my lower molars. In the book, it only refers to the upper first molars.

Hope someone can help
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Andrea AWsec
Thursday, July 28, 2011, 12:37pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I will try and get an answer for you.

Eric can you email Ryan with both questions?

Can the cusp be on the bottom and does it matter so much which molar it is, so many people have teeth removed or work done.

Eric's video is great got a sneak peek!


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