I am wondering if the Hunter's or the Gatherer's can survive vegan/vegetariansim longer?

I don't think there is a real answer.

Any O's love being vegetarians?

I do have O-clients, mostly secretors who are vegetarians, I always recommend to go for Forskolin as a supplement   they are mostly all thinny people.....

When I did the detox diet just using vegan and vegetarian foods - I went down with shingles - having no meat did not suit me at all although during my "yoga class years" I did stop eating red meat for a while

I have known O vegetarians, and was vegetarian 2 times during my life. The first time age 16-19-- became anemic and has to quit. Again in late 20's - early 30's for 8 years. Put on weight, developed fibroids, was fatigued all the time (never felt rested even with 10 hours' sleep) and was beginning to get arthritic when I discovered the BTD. I think around 1996-97? My life changed dramatically in 2 weeks. ALL of my symptoms improved- joint pain GONE. Sleep patterns improved 80%.

I have seen the same kinds of changes in O friends willing to try the diet. Unfortunately none of the Os I know who have stayed with vegetarian/vegan eating have improved in health. Some have got much worse. Understand that I'm 54 and I'm thinking about the 40-60 year olds that I have watched through the getting older (won't say aging!) process.

I cannot do dairy-- I don't really try, even though Explorers can have some. I just get mucusy from it. So I suppose that is a plus for O vegans. But the problem is that many plant based protein foods available commercially are wheat based, and that also I don't tolerate. I stay away from most grains and find that I do much better. Beans and Nuts are also not so good for me. I'm sure there are Os that can do them. What does that leave? Not much...

your testimonial is a keeper!!
thanks!

Quoted from Andrea AWsec

I am wondering if the Hunter's or the Gatherer's can survive vegan/vegetariansim longer?

What a good question!

I think, just riffin' off the cuff here, that while Gatherers might be able to go along a tad longer without MEAT than Hunters, so in that sense, we could survive being a veggie better, on the other hand, Hunters could drop the excess weight gained by going veggie (or grainy, more like) faster AND their insulin recepters could recover quicker, so it is six one way and half a dozen the other.  Bottom line:  O's, eat your humanely-raised, sustainably-raised, organic meat.

just curious: do explorers eat much meat? seems like they may eat the least meat, but I could be wrong...I think they don't do beef...

Quoted from jayneeo

just curious: do explorers eat much meat? seems like they may eat the least meat, but I could be wrong...I think they don't do beef...

Nope, Warriors have the Explorers beat on the meat thing.

yeah, but the question was only about O's. I imagine a warrior would have no problem being vegan, but no O can be a warrior.

I was answering a question regarding meat consumption.

Quoted from jayneeo

just curious: do explorers eat much meat? seems like they may eat the least meat, but I could be wrong...I think they don't do beef...

sorry, andrea, I should have said..."of O's...etc."

Quoted from jayneeo

sorry, andrea, I should have said..."of O's...etc."

I'm interested in this question too, for a friend.She is a yoga/vegetarian O type, and quite ill off and on, but simply can't stomach much if any meat. She hasn't done the measurements yet, but I am guessing Gatherer by her appearance.
I was hoping that this turns out to be the case, and that she will then try Gatherer with very little red meat.

yes, I believe a gatherer or explorer could actually eat all fish or maybe fish with a little turkey now and then and be ok.....hope you can convince her....
I was a long time vegetarian as past posts on the subject can show....had health issues to undo, but enjoy great health now.

Quoted from jayneeo

but enjoy great health now.

Lola- that was the short version!

I think one of the reasons I haven't had as much overall damage from the vegetarian days is that my family always ate out of the garden, or had venison or other quality meat. My dad never let us do the junk food thing, and I learned to love good food and cooking from scratch and gardening.

I love lean, grass fed beef and feel pretty good when I eat it, but fish and wild game are my favorites. It has actually been hard getting used to so much lamb (since my husband is a B we have tended toward lamb and beef-- we get it from local farmers at our farmer's market, which features a lot of organic stuff (there's a lot of interest in that in our community). Lamb can be a bit fatty to my taste. We can also get goat here, from local folks, but only in the fall. The hardest thing about being vegetarian was that I seriously craved meat one week out of every month. The diet really made sense to me because of that.

I'm not sure it is so important to get lots of meat as to have it every day, several times a day. Though I noticed when I changed to the BTD that I could eat gobs more food of all kinds and still lose weight.

The one thing I have trouble with in the book is that it will say eat fish so many times a week and meat so many times a week, but nowhere that I could find does it say eat so many grams/ ounces etc of animal protein a day/week. I try to pay attention to what my body says, and frankly if I need a pick me up I always go for the animal protein even if it's just a few ounces. Plant proteins just don't do the same thing for me.

Jenny, is your friend vegetarian for reasons of conscience, or because she really doesn't like meat? And is it red meat or any meat that she doesn't care for? I have a friend (a B Explorer) who will eat meat but just can't bring herself to eat those little lambies (she really says that). I really appreciate that. I didn't want to eat animals either, in my head. But my body did. It's always a balancing act. I decided that I wouldn't do the world any favors by being ill, low-functioning etc. I had so much more to give when I became healthier. I made a choice to shop for my food consciously-- all of it, not just the meat. Doing that, and seeing how the diet change improved not just my life but the lives of everyone I touched, I could live with it. Every being in the world causes damage, death or decay at some point in its life cycle. We as humans can live consciously in order to minimize the cost to other beings. Once I looked at it that way I was free to listen better to my body and make choices based on my whole being.

Andrea, thanks for the question-- I never really had the opportunity to articulate this in this way. It was a huge thing for me to make the switch, but I never have regretted it.

We need Accidental Chef over here!!!  Seriously, culturally she is a vegetarian (lacto-ovo) so could probably provide some excellent inputs.

Bekki, my friend has conscience issues, but also does not like red meat at all. she has tried to force herself to eat a little beef (from my BTD days) but did not like it. I have given her the GTD book, and hope that it will inspire her to try again, hopefully Gatherer as that is less meaty.

Quoted from Rebecca_C

We need Accidental Chef over here!!!  Seriously, culturally she is a vegetarian (lacto-ovo) so could probably provide some excellent inputs.

Thank you Bec, just what the Boards need-another of AC's diatribes .

Andrea, I would hazard a guess that O & B Gatherers would find it easier to be vegetarians. Having said that, I feel that an O or  B for that matter, who comes from a culture of being vegetarian wouldnt have any problems being vegetarians if they kept away from wheat. South Indians for example ate millet and rice before the arrival of wheat. We have generations of families who have never ever eaten meat or fish and they seem just fine with their vegetarian diets.

I think you need to have a few generations of vegetarians in your genetic hardisk to feel OK with it.

Bekki...wonderful testimony...I totally feel the same as you do & the improvement in my well-being is as remarkable as yours...people tell me that I don't look like I will be turning 70 in March...we have to change people's perception of what a 70 year old person looks like. A few years ago I met a 70 year old woman who looked great...ever since then I made the decision to work at being as fit as she...with the help of the BTD/GTD...I've done it. Congratulations on your success.

Ah, so my vegan sister must be an O Gatherer.. if she was a Hunter it would  make her much more sick. She does not eat wheat.

Can your friend start with turkey? Isn't that a bennie for all types & maybe gentler than beef?
BTW, my son's girlfriend is a vegetarian. She has a lot of dairy & likes avocados, etc. Her personality is also very sweet. I thought that too much dairy made people surly & cranky. I hope she is an A, but even As need some fish & poultry once in a while.
Sea Salt & Light,
Mrs "T"    O+

Rex, this age thing is something I'm really conscious of-- my spouse person is a B Nomad who will turn 72 in September. He gets really made when people get "age-ist"!

He himself probably has pretty good genes, and he takes excellent care of himself. He also is very diverse in his eating habits, does lots of quality veggies and meat, and gets a fair amount of appropriate exercise and outdoor time. He follows the diet in most things, has given up beans for the most part (doesn't digest them very well), and eats chicken very occasionally, but loves Chinese food which he cooks very well (an ex is Chinese and so his daughter is half Chinese). He is heartsick that I as an Explorer cannot do soy products which means no tamari, which he refuses to give up. I tell him that when I have solved the last of my health problems, which I believe may be rooted in the molds and fermented foods issue, I will think about eating tamari again!!!!

All this to say that he looks 10 years younger than he is, and can outwork some of the healthy men we know who are in their 30s. For that matter at 54 I can outwork women half my age, some of them seemingly in really good shape.

I think that most of us are raised to believe  in the myths of aging. For that matter there are a lot of myths about childhood too. In indigenous societies children begin learning hunting, gathering and gardening skills at an early age. My husband, who was a silversmith when I met him, began teaching his daughter to use his tools and design jewelry for him at age 4! By 8 she was making her own pieces and selling them. We need to think very differently about our productivity and usefulness as humans, if we want to live happy fulfilled, LONG lives. Which is also the best reason I can think of to do the Diet...

I agree on all points and appreciate your sharing very much, Bekki!

Quoted from Bekki Shining Bearheart

I'm not sure it is so important to get lots of meat as to have it every day, several times a day. Though I noticed when I changed to the BTD that I could eat gobs more food of all kinds and still lose weight.

The one thing I have trouble with in the book is that it will say eat fish so many times a week and meat so many times a week, but nowhere that I could find does it say eat so many grams/ ounces etc of animal protein a day/week. I try to pay attention to what my body says, and frankly if I need a pick me up I always go for the animal protein even if it's just a few ounces.

What books have you got?

BTD portion and frequency guidelines are in LR
GTD portion and frequency guidelines are in the GTD book

Books I have
Eat Right
Live Right
Cook right
Genotype

Health Library (mostly so I can lend to others when they need them, to get them started):
Diabetes
Cardiovascular
Cancer
Arthritis
Menopause
Aging (wince)

Wish there was one for Thyroid Disease...

I started using the Live Right when it came out, occasionally referring to the others. Have been using the Genotype Diet since Feb, pretty exclusively, since I am an Explorer and it's a pretty idiosyncratic type.

I find it difficult to sort out questions like frequency of animal proteins though.

And another thing, while I do like that way more species of fish are listed, having these neutrals that are not listed makes me worry-- what if something fairly obscure that I like is not listed? Can I be sure that it has really been checked out?

At the same time, this is emerging science and better to have some answers than none at all.

And maybe I'm being too compulsive about all of this...!

Bekki, I believe there can be a lot of intense learning in the first several years of BTD/GTD, so I'd hesitate to call it compulsive. My brother refered to me as "orthodox" when he saw me during a time of high compliance. At the time I refered to it myself as "hardcore."

Your dramatic O-type turnaround sounds like my own response when I started a couple years ago, fast and dramatic.
Having a partner who refuses to give up certain things isn't as bad as one who won't cooperate with the diet at all, could be worse.
PS, Welcome!

I eat differently than my husband & there is no stress. He can handle carbs & I don't too well. Now that he is older, they aren't that good for him either.
Bekki, what type is your "DH"?  Mine is AB, so definitely we are different!!
I also 'refuse' to age, although I know we all get older. But we can get older, slooooooowly! I don't feel 60, & when I'm rested, I don't look it.
Notice all the 'BTD Babes' on here(over 50). Sometimes we don't learn certain things till later in life & It's like we are young again & eagerly learning. I first heard of BTD around my 50h birthday, got ER4YT the next year, I think. But it took time to completely phase in to the diet(we all still make some mistakes-nobody is perfectly compliant).
Welcome to BTDland! You will have fun!!!!
Mrs "T"   O+  

Thanks for the support folks!

Mrs T, he's a B+ Nomad, and has been relatively supportive till now. He's the main cook in the house, because he really loves cooking and will take it on any time of the day or night, and there isn't enough room in the kitchen for 2-- metaphorically as well as actually. I love to cook and am quite good at it, but tend to do the things he doesn't-- like traditional Danish and Hungarian foods, which I am very familiar with. But that is a small proportion of our diet.

We eat a lot of ethnic foods he learned to cook in his travels and studies (trained as an anthropologist). Some of those foods I can't eat now on a regular basis. That bums him out...

Veganism I've noticed is enjoying a renaissance.  Did the diet in my 20s, worst years of my life.  Are there GTs that thrive on it?

Quoted from Bekki Shining Bearheart

And maybe I'm being too compulsive about all of this...!

I doubt it, although the people who you try to share with might not see it that way.  Explorers might come accross as a bit dogmatic.

Walking to the beat of your own drum is not dogmatic.  (spoken by an eccentric Nomad)

Trying to force another person to believe as we do is dogmatic.  (just my take on it)

As far as how much we compromise our own preferred diet in order to make others more comfortable with us is a personal matter.  I think it depends on what our health is like and what our current health goals are.  This can change from time to time depending on the circumstances.  

I'd think a Gatherer could manage being vegetarian-  between the beans, eggs, and compliant dairy products, there would still be enough overall protien (assuming, of course, that eggs and dairy were consumed in much larger quantities than Dr D recomends.) I know I did poorly as a vegetarian, but then I was eating tons of wheat and corn at the time!

But, then, I also know what happens to me when I don't eat beef regularly, and if I were a long-term vegetarian I'd most likely be on numerous prescription medications: certainly Prozac or another antidepressant, possibly diabetes meds (I don't have diabetes, but I could easily have developed it if I hadn't been careful) and maybe something for high blood pressure and/or high cholesterol (though those might be avoidable if I did a low-carb version of vegetariansim.) And then I'd probably have side effects from those medications as well.

I'm sure I could survive as a lacto-ovo vegetarian,  but I wouldn't be healthy. I might be healthy enough, though, to think that nothing was wrong other than "getting older."  As a vegan, I'm not sure I could survive, certainly not without serious health problems.

Vegetarianism ought to be easiest for Warriors, if fish and eggs were permissable vegetarian foods.

Quoted from Andrea AWsec

I am wondering if the Hunter's or the Gatherer's can survive vegan/vegetariansim longer?

I don't think there is a real answer.

Any O's love being vegetarians?

Well i'just know that i'm the classic hunter e.g. tall, skinny, high adrenalin, anxiety issues, thrive on hours of full court basketball etc. as that gets my endorphins flowing and so i feel the best when consuming mostly beef and low carb vege's. Infact  if i could only choose one way of eating between the two choices i'd choose being a zero carb hunter (beef only) over an vegetarian  hunter as far as my physical and mental well being are concerned as i've been noticing since the beginning of this year when i finally started living the o type/geno type diet.

Hi I tried veganism for a few yrs thinking it would make me healthier all I did was make myself sicker read btd and it made sense but not completely then found gtd and read it it made more sense again as I am an explorer and there it was the internal draw I always had to stay away from meat as an explorer I can pretty much have lots of fish and turkey and finally feel compete

In March (this year) I incorporated vegetarian Superfoods for my Gatherer Genotype and I eliminated many (not all, yet) toxins, including a lot of dairy toxins that I was eating before.  I have been researching and keeping track of RDA's, especially for protein.  I take many of the Dr. D'Adamo supplements, including Ocubright.  I am getting most of my protein from almonds (soaked a minimum of eight hours), flax seeds (soaked 4-1/2 hours), chia seeds (soaked 4-1/2 hours), and Dr. D'Adamo's BTO protein powder.  I also have way increased my egg intake due to eggs being a Superfood for me.  Good news -- my vision has improved!  My optometrist confirmed this yesterday.  I myself noticed an improvement within the past two months.  I am not ruling out eating meat in the future, especially after what I have been reading on this website from vegetarian BTO's.  However, I'm okay for now with the Superfood/RDA route and want to see how this goes.  

I'm glad you're doing well, Elaine.  

Elaine- that sounds like a very good approach, to help you ease into this way of eating. Welcome to the forums!

I could not survive more than a few months on a vegan diet, if that.  I might be able to do lacto-ovo vegetarian but wouldn't really want to--- I'm happier eating meat & think I have a better metabolism & better mental balance; less depressed.

Quoted from ElaineP

In March (this year) I incorporated vegetarian Superfoods for my Gatherer Genotype and I eliminated many (not all, yet) toxins, including a lot of dairy toxins that I was eating before.  I have been researching and keeping track of RDA's, especially for protein.  I take many of the Dr. D'Adamo supplements, including Ocubright.  I am getting most of my protein from almonds (soaked a minimum of eight hours), flax seeds (soaked 4-1/2 hours), chia seeds (soaked 4-1/2 hours), and Dr. D'Adamo's BTO protein powder.  I also have way increased my egg intake due to eggs being a Superfood for me.  Good news -- my vision has improved!  My optometrist confirmed this yesterday.  I myself noticed an improvement within the past two months.  I am not ruling out eating meat in the future, especially after what I have been reading on this website from vegetarian BTO's.  However, I'm okay for now with the Superfood/RDA route and want to see how this goes.  

Eggs are rich in lutein, a necessary nutrient for healthy eyesight.

Quoted from faithandjoy4

Hi I tried veganism for a few yrs thinking it would make me healthier all I did was make myself sicker read btd and it made sense but not completely then found gtd and read it it made more sense again as I am an explorer and there it was the internal draw I always had to stay away from meat as an explorer I can pretty much have lots of fish and turkey and finally feel compete

I've been thinking alone these lines. I would guess an O Explorer might be drawn to being a vegetarian or vegan because of the liver problems we tend to have. Maybe as sick explorers we would have a harder time digesting meat. I know I did for a while.

I was a vegetarian, too. Not fun.

We all must eat some meat to hit the high point on the bell curve that is health.

Ratios are different for different folks based on energy demands.  Plants are what i personally believe heal genes and give us carbon, which is the element of life for all living things.  The meats give energy for certain things to take place the right way.

Initial fitness is the most important factor here i think.  But thats just my belief!

You can have a poorly fit hunter, fair explorer, or super fit gatherer.  The most fit would prob win it out no matter what the gt.

I'll be honest. My favourite food groups, Vegetable Proteins and Fats and Oils, I would love to eat to my hearts desire. Unfortunately, I can't - I'm sure I not alone there. I gain the gain weight very quickly, so I have to balance out the groups with priority given to animal protein. When I was a veggie in my mid - late twenties my temper was almost psychotic. Then one day I bought a multivitamin and within days I started feeling sooooo much better, and finally even more so when I began eating chicken a few years ago.

I have recently sourced some extra / extra lean turkey mince, so I might go over to trying more white than red for a while.

Quoted from nowishow

I've been thinking alone these lines. I would guess an O Explorer might be drawn to being a vegetarian or vegan because of the liver problems we tend to have. Maybe as sick explorers we would have a harder time digesting meat. I know I did for a while.

Explorers seem to need quite a lot of protein from as many sources as permissable.  Perhaps being a non-secretor gives me a biased point of view.  When I review my Swami (O - non) and my wife's (A + sec) the commonality is that no one source of protein is a strong emphasis except eggs.  It is not until you count the servings of protein from all the different sources that you realize it is essentially protein at every meal.

This conveys that protein is a constrained resource.  Explorers need a lot of it, but each source has a limiting negative factor.  The only sense I can make of this is the great variety of anemias that the Explorer could be prone to.  Anemic pathologies would plague Vegetarian Explorers.

Paul i tried eating little meat at all from any source, and developed a lot of floating anxiety, like i sometimes couldn't breath or a big rush of energy would go over my body making me want to move around.  Felt unsetteled.  I had eliminated red meats almost completely.  That was back in 06'.  I started eating occassional beef, now lamb with this diet over beef, and a lot of turkey, fish, chicken, etc.  

I feel much better now, plus eliminating the toxins that build in explorers.

Still hanging in there as a BTO vegetarian -- still kinda scared -- had to way reduce my eggs intake from last year due to overtaxing my gallbladder.  I did one gallbladder malic acid/olive oil/lemon juice flush, will do another.  I can't achieve my protein RDA's with the reduction in my eggs intake but am hoping I can stay healthy without doing so.  

As a Hunter I could never go back to veganism.

There's a big difference between veganism and vegetarianism. Vegetarians still eat eggs and dairy products, while vegans do not. Plus there are pescatarians (people who eat  fish/seafood but not poultry or red meat) who use the "vegetarian" label. Type O pescatarians can do quite well, although not as well as an O who includes red meat.

Dairy products are a poor substitute for meat for an O, but it's still better for an O to get ample animal protein, even if it's not from the ideal sources.  Elaine- I hope you're eating ample quantities of Gatherer cheeses for the protein, especially since you're cutting back on eggs. Also, make sure to choose more beans and nuts and fewer grains, and emphasize vegetables over  fruits.

I was a vegan or 5 years. Felt great for the first 4 but not after that. I had weight gain, I was sluggish, had brain fog and terrible digestion.

http://www.uoregon.edu/~sshapiro/Pemphigus/AboutSteve.html
Steve s story

This is an interesting thread from my perspective. I'm an O Gatherer and was vegetarian for 5 years, vegan for about half of that. I felt happier like this, as I seemed to prefer that kind of food. Even though I'm an O, I've never had any desire for meat and never missed it when I cut it out.

Anyway, irrelevant of what I consciously prefered or not, I stopped being vegetarian because I was ill. I had menstrual problems caused by fibroids and was badly anaemic. My mother, (an omnivore), had exactly the same problems at the same time, so it looks like what happened to me was genetic, although I accept that it was probably exaccerbated by diet as well.

So, I accept that as an O I should be eating meat and fish, and I do now, but I wonder why I don't have any lust for it? I was perfectly content eating veggie food. There's a euphoria that can come with that way of eating, a psychological sense of virtue or oneness, it's hard to explain, but it was a good feeling and I think that's why many people persue it, as well as the ethical perspective, of course.

During my 5 years of vegetarianism, I spent nearly a year being a raw food vegan and that's the only way I've ever achienved being as slim as I wanted, so I thought it was great at the time. However, 10 years later I now have IBS and the things that set off digestive pain are raw fruit and vegetables! So that period I spent as a raw foodist, thinking it was very healing, seems to have hurt my digestive system, as I can't tolerate that food now.

Aviva, small steps.....hope the guidelines will help heal

read about lectins and deflect

http://www.4yourtype.com/deflect.asp

I ate mostly vegetarian while on weight watchers several years ago and became very ill. Points for meat were really high, so I ate more veggies, beans and grains, so I could eat enough to get full. Could hardly drag myself out of bed, in fact had to stop and rest several times a day bewteen household and working in the office. My hair fell out by the gobfulls (good thing it is really thick) and body held a lot of inflammation and fluid. Once a month as treat I would allow myself a double cheeseburger, using saved up weekly points and I felt so good after I ate it, that should have given  me a clue.

When I started the BTD I could not seem to get enough beef, it was all I wanted to eat.

Having lived it I would not recommend for either genotype.

Quoted from Aviva

Even though I'm an O, I've never had any desire for meat and never missed it when I cut it out.

I felt the same way. Your story is basically mine. Really awful menstrual problems when I was a vegetarian and really bad IBS, but I though for sure the hamburgers that I ate where what caused it. Clearly it was the bread.

Nowadays, I know that if I have a balanced meat + veggie/live food/fruit meal, as opposed to one high in carbs with little meat, I stay satisfied way longer and overall feel way better, particularly my clinical depression which disappears. I think a vegan lifestyle, at this point in my life, would kill me from the depression alone.

I was never really "normal" in a lot of ways till I added meat back.  For years it was one sob story after another, would never suggest not eating meat to an O, just utterly ridiculous advice.

Interesting to re-read this thread again--- I still continue to feel my best doing the diet... this morning I was sharing my experience with a young friend. She was shocked when I told her I was going to be 58 at the end of may-- she was sure I was in my 40s! I certainly don't feel my age. I am grateful daily for this way of eating.

So we're in agreement that meat eating seems to be an important factor to achieve good health for many people, epecially type O's.

But why do you think so many people are drawn to vegetarianism and veganism if it goes against their instincts regarding how to achieve good health? With me, it wasn't upbringing, or fashion following that lead me to it. Maybe it was a lust for more carbs but mostly I just didn't like the blood and viscera that comes with meat and fish.

Not eating flesh is an ideal, but clearly an unworkable ideal for many people, so I wonder why we're drawn to it if it hurts our health?

Quoted from Aviva

Not eating flesh is an ideal, but clearly an unworkable ideal for many people, so I wonder why we're drawn to it if it hurts our health?

Many vegetarian proponents talk about / visualize animal abuse and use it (on an emotional level) as justification for not eating animal flesh.  It is the emotional connection with the animals that pushes "us" against logic to choose that path.

I guess it is just hard to believe that eating meat can be good.  There are so many doctors and nutritionist who advise against it.  That is what I am struggeling, too with.  So many say meat gives cancer etc.  How can one put those doubts out of their head?

Once again, you have to study the references Dr. D. provides and realize that at this point, you know more about this specific truth than all of those other "advisors".

They use the emotional link of "cancer" to attempt to scare you away from the food.
The studies that they are referencing do not take into account specific physiology differences related to BT and the GT data Dr. D. uses.

Quoted from paul clucas

Anemic pathologies would plague Vegetarian Explorers.

Yes, I can agree with this. I have tried to be vegetarian not so much vegan and it failed miserably for me as an A Explorer.

Aviva,

In my case it was listening to the wrong people. I had the food pyramid pounded into my head during Nursing School and later in the work place.  Meat is bad for your heart. I could not figure out why my Hubby and I were becoming fatter and sicker on less food a day.

He has high blood pressure and we have gotten him off of his loop diaretic, which was causing his kidney lab values to be quite a concern. We are using dandelion instead. Now I am giving him Hawthorne berry capsules and we  have been able to cut his BP meds in half. Will continue until he is totally off of the poison. He became very ill, bloated  and had hives on all his old meds last summer, meds were all changed around. but of course being on the same drug for over 10 years usually cause major side effects.

Unless I have a bone poking through skin or need urgent surgery, I am so fed up with traditional medicine and all the drugs they poke at people and horrible nutrional advice. I won't even work in a tradional setting as a nurse now, because I would have to give advice on something I did not believe in.

Aviva,
I am an Osec and I followed a vegan diet for only 2 weeks in January  a few years back.  Had lots of IBS type symptoms while on it and fatigue.  But the worst part was that my fibroids grew larger.  I am still battling them now.  But I do stray from my diet with caffeine, coffee and tea.  I am not supposed to have them.  Now I am finding that caffeine can cause fibroids to grow.  Every day is a struggle for me in this area.  
I heard you say you had fibroids while on a vegetarian diet.  Where you eating wheat and drinking caffeinated beverages?  I am asking more for curiosity sake.  I am also hearing that it's to do with
xenoeoestrogens in the environment, our skin care products, plastics, etc.  Have you and your mom looked at any of this?  I have cut alot out, except for the caffeine.  Also dairy is another source of hormones that we need to avoid, but that is part of the blood type also...
Just wondering if you are still anemic and still dealing with fibroids?

Quoted from Aviva

Not eating flesh is an ideal, but clearly an unworkable ideal for many people, so I wonder why we're drawn to it if it hurts our health?

It doesn't hurt everybody's health. A Warriors do  very well on vegetarian diets; one egg or a couple ounces of yogurt a day and they've got all the animal protien they need for the day. Even A Teachers do well on less meat than the typical American diet. So, when they cut down on meat, they feel better. Then they take that logic to the extreme and think "If less animal food is good, then cutting it out would be even better!"

You also see a whole lot of guilty vegans who succumb to a little dairy, eggs, or fish every once in a while. They think they're "having moments of weakness" but in reality these "cheats" are what holds their health together. Even more vegetarians are "vegan wanna-be's" who don't completely cut out all animal foods but wish they could.

Quoted from Paula 0+

Aviva,
I am an Osec and I followed a vegan diet for only 2 weeks in January  a few years back.  Had lots of IBS type symptoms while on it and fatigue.  But the worst part was that my fibroids grew larger.  I am still battling them now.  But I do stray from my diet with caffeine, coffee and tea.  I am not supposed to have them.  Now I am finding that caffeine can cause fibroids to grow.  Every day is a struggle for me in this area.  
I heard you say you had fibroids while on a vegetarian diet.  Where you eating wheat and drinking caffeinated beverages?  I am asking more for curiosity sake.  I am also hearing that it's to do with
xenoeoestrogens in the environment, our skin care products, plastics, etc.  Have you and your mom looked at any of this?  I have cut alot out, except for the caffeine.  Also dairy is another source of hormones that we need to avoid, but that is part of the blood type also...
Just wondering if you are still anemic and still dealing with fibroids?

Hi Paula

I'm really sorry to hear of your struggle. I know only too well the sense of struggle that goes with fibroids and how you keep searching to find information about how to combat them. I had bad symptoms with them for nearly 10 years and got backed into a corner because the only solution was to have a hysterectomy. I was 41 in Dec 2010 when I had it, with no children, so it was a big step to agree to, but after all those years of struggle, and several blood transfusions to help the constant anaemia I had, it was the only solution that worked for me. I know that's a depressing statement but sadly it was the truth for me. The surgeon told me the fibroid he took out was the largest he'd ever seen. It was 5 pounds in weight. I have no idea why it kept growing.

So, I'm sorry, I genuinely have no good advice to give you because I still don't understand what created these fibroids. I can only assume it was genetics because my mother had a hysterectomy in her late 30s and so did her mother. When I was vegetarian and vegan, yes I was eating wheat and caffeine but I really can't say to what extent food has affected this condition, because when I stopped being veggie, for a long time I followed the type O diet and the fibroid situation didn't improve liked I hoped it would, but other things did seem to improve, like I lost a few pounds and lost dark circles under the eyes - things like that, so I definitely believe that diet can contribute to good health but in my case, I didn't see it cure this condition.

I tried hard to cure my fiboids through diet, through homeopathy, through visualisation, through herbalism but nothing had a long term effect. I felt like a failure for not being able to help myself. All I can say is that a hysterectomy wasn't as bad as I thought it would be in practical terms and that I'm well now, (with the exception of IBS after eating fruit and raw vegetables - a problem which started only in the last two years or so).

I'm sorry I can't be of more help to you.

nutrigenomics as well as lifestyle and type of exercise should be BT/GT specific.......Cahling did not know better, and still many simply do not get the message, until it is too late.....

to each their own

Quoted from Aviva

So, I accept that as an O I should be eating meat and fish, and I do now, but I wonder why I don't have any lust for it? I was perfectly content eating veggie food.

Do you by any chance have any lust for grains, especially wheat? I've learned that this can be a protein craving in disguise.

I've been mostly vegan for the last two decades, often with a carb craving that no amount of bread could satisfy. Then I read Dr. D's advice (in LR4YT, I think) to the effect "if you as a Type O crave wheat, eat some meat" ... and by gosh, it seems to work.

Quoted from Brett650

Do you by any chance have any lust for grains, especially wheat? I've learned that this can be a protein craving in disguise.

Absolutely true. Wheat and meat are both tyrosine sources for craving O's.

Welcome to the forum!

I remember reading a writing by Gandhi.  He said he was totally vegan for about 2 years and felt fine but then had an illness and couldn't regain his former health and strength.  Someone finally convinced him to add goat milk to his diet and he got better.  And I read that Sir Paul McCartney wrote the Dalai Lama calling him out about eating meat.  The Dalai Lama said his doctor told him he had to for his health.  

Quoted from Brett650

Do you by any chance have any lust for grains, especially wheat? I've learned that this can be a protein craving in disguise.

I've been mostly vegan for the last two decades, often with a carb craving that no amount of bread could satisfy. Then I read Dr. D's advice (in LR4YT, I think) to the effect "if you as a Type O crave wheat, eat some meat" ... and by gosh, it seems to work.

Hi Brett, no I think the culprit has something to go with sugar rather than grains or wheat. When I was vegan I was eating a lot of biscuits, (ie: cookies), not so much for the wheat but for the sugar. I'm trying to eat sugar free now, basing my diet on the Gatherer one but not quite because I'm still using a little sucralose as a sweetner, and that's a forbidden. I can't eat any fruit or fructose because it upsets my digestion, so I can't use anything fruit derived as a sweetener. As a Gatherer, it would seem sugar, in all its guises, is the thing I crave. Maybe I felt I enjoyed veganism because it's a sugar/carb fest - you revel in huge amounts of carbs and minimal amounts of everything else.

aviva, fyi, wheat and other avoid carbs turn into sugar once metabolized......makes sense, no?


use vegetable glycerin for sweetener, make your body happy

Quoted from Aviva

Hi Brett, no I think the culprit has something to go with sugar rather than grains or wheat. When I was vegan I was eating a lot of biscuits, (ie: cookies), not so much for the wheat but for the sugar. I'm trying to eat sugar free now, basing my diet on the Gatherer one but not quite because I'm still using a little sucralose as a sweetner, and that's a forbidden. I can't eat any fruit or fructose because it upsets my digestion, so I can't use anything fruit derived as a sweetener. As a Gatherer, it would seem sugar, in all its guises, is the thing I crave. Maybe I felt I enjoyed veganism because it's a sugar/carb fest - you revel in huge amounts of carbs and minimal amounts of everything else.

I'm sorry you had such a rough time with the fibroids, and aren't able to have children. (((HUGS)))

Personally, I've found that I do best on a low-carb diet. I can handle the carbs from veggies without problems, and I also do OK with the carbs from beans and (in small quantities) whole compliant grains. My SWAMI only gives me 1/2 cup of fruit daily, and I don't even have it every day. It's hard to find a time of day when it doens't upset my blood sugar.

I mostly just avoid sweets. I don't use any sweeteners in my green tea, although I do use a little bit of lemon, lime, or grapefruit juice. I'm not sure if you could handle that right now with your GI issues. I can taste the sweetness in lemon juice now- a food that I used to think was only "sour" when I was younger.

I have to wonder how much the sucralose may be affecting your digestion. You won't know until you stop using it altogether. But if you need to take things slow, and make changes in baby steps, that's OK too.

I've found my digestion is fine if I avoid all fruits, including lemon juice and am careful with raw vegetables, limiting them to a tiny amount and eating most veggies cooked.

The sucralose doesn't seem to affect me, although I don't know it's doing long term; I don't like the idea of eating something 'unnatural'. But the problem with ordinary sugar is that I find it addictive. If I taste it, I want more and the fake sugars don't seem to do that to me. I wish I could live a life free of sweetness, which is what the Gatherer diet seems to advocate but it's very hard!

Stevia might be a healthier choice than the sucralose. The best thing, of course, is to enjoy the natural sweetness of things without adding any kind of sweetener at all.

Even if you're not ready to totally give up on the sucralose yet, you should work on cutting down. You shouldn't need a sweetener in every single cup of tea you drink.

Quoted from ruthiegirl

I have to wonder how much the sucralose may be affecting your digestion. You won't know until you stop using it altogether. But if you need to take things slow, and make changes in baby steps, that's OK too.

In the handout we got on FODMAPS and fructose malabsorption from Seattle Children's, upon my son's diagnosis, was sucralose, aspartame and the sugar alcohols are all bad from a FODMAP perspective. Stevia is okay, though, as long as it's not mixed with something else like inulin, chicory, etc.

Aviva,
My swami gives me honey as a superfood.  For some reason, I find just a touch of it does the trick.  And I did do vegetable glycerin in hot drinks and like the flavor of it also.   I can't remember if you did a swami?