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Spring
Friday, May 9, 2008, 11:03pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Kidney stones with the colic that goes along with them sometimes, are the pits. But I have never known anyone who actually thought they were going to die from the pain. My son's mother-in-law was trying to pass one as big as a large grape recently and the poor woman drove all the way back from seeing her son in Florida by herself in that state. How she did it I do not know. But on the other hand, I don't know any women able to drive several hundred miles in labor, period. My guess is, it ain't going to happen!! Mother-in-law had surgery to remove the stone after she got back home and is doing fine. I do have a very high regard for this great woman!

But there is labor and then there is labor. No two people have the same set of variables. It took me two solid days to have both my sons, but my mother had a maid who told me that she had one of her babies fall out on the hearth in her home and she hadn't even noticed that she was in labor!!  
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JJR
Friday, May 9, 2008, 11:26pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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God said so.  Plus, trying to push that head....  aaaahhh....  It just can't be easy.  Give's me the shivers!


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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TJ
Saturday, May 10, 2008, 12:15am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Mrs T O+
I actually think kindney stones are more painful. At least with labor, you know it will be over. I have had pain worse than labor. But, still labor is a strange thing. Why does it hurt so much? Yet, women keep wanting kids!!
S S & L,
Mrs "T"   O+  


"A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world." (John 16:21)
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Ribbit
Saturday, May 10, 2008, 1:09am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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That's right.  You preach it, brother.


ISTJ, BTD since 5/05.  Battling chronic Lyme disease since ~1985.

"Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial..."  I Corinthians 6:12

Family: 3 As, 1 B, 1 AB, 1 O
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JJR
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Kyosha Nim
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I forgot about that one.  I was thinking more OT about when man sinned God said we'd work and labor would hurt, etc. etc.


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Mrs T O+
Saturday, May 10, 2008, 9:29pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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I still don't understand that verse in the NT that talks about 'women being saved in childbearing.'
Any imput from you ><>y friends?
Sea Salt & Light,
Mrs "T"   O+  


Interested in nutrition, lactation, religion, politics; love to be around people; talkative, sensitive, goofy; a "fishy Christian" ><>; left-handed; lived on a farm, small town & big city; love BTD/GTD; A staunch La Leche League veteran; b. 10/1947 Check BTD/GTD on facebook!
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JJR
Saturday, May 10, 2008, 10:07pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Which verse?


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Spring
Sunday, May 11, 2008, 12:19am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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(1 Tim 2:14-15)  "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. {15} Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."
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TJ
Sunday, May 11, 2008, 1:07am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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In a nutshell, I believe that verse specifies woman's duty to bear children (provided that she is able to do so).

Of course, women get off lucky.   Child-bearing only can happen during a certain period their lifetime, whilst the man is commanded the eat bread by the sweat of his face all the days of his life!
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Ribbit
Sunday, May 11, 2008, 2:35am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Ha.  Child bearing is not just labor.  You bear the child for 9 months, which is very hard, before you even "bear" them in labor.  Then, if you stay home with them, you bear them around on one hip or the other for another year at least, till they get interested in eating crumbs off the floor.  You bear them through waking up many, many, many times during every night (while your husband sleeps on the couch, blissfully unaware that you've had all of one whole sleep cycle in the last two weeks.)  Then you bear them through their hurts and fears and trials and troubles and bad dreams for years.  It's tiring.  It's painful. You worry and fret over them and bear their burdens with them and for them.  Then they turn around as young adults and all but slap you in the face, unless you have one of those rare relationships where they actually respect you.   Childbearing isn't just about labor.  I think it's pain throughout your/their entire lives.  My husband, after watching me "bear" three small children, and have more pain on a day-to-day basis than he's ever had in his life, readily says I have the more difficult job.  (Of course, I had to leave them with him while I ran to the grocery store a few times before he had a small appreciation for what I do.)

Spring, I finally formed an opinion about what that verse means.  I've wondered about it for many years and have never heard a satisfactory answer about it.  After having three, I begin to understand (if I'm right about my ideas).  This is going to be very controversial among us ><> because it broaches on several iffy topics.

1.  The man (Adam) wasn't deceived.  He knew he was disobeying God.  He chose to do it anyway, knowing the consequences.  Eve was deceived.  She really thought she was doing right.  She honestly believed she was making a good decision.  After all, she just wanted to be like God.  Satan knew she would more likely believe him, which is why he went after her.  Adam was standing right there and saw what was happening (the account in Genesis says, "she gave to her husband with her").  Instead of asking Adam what he thought, or instead of going to God to check again, she believed a lie and disobeyed.  This is iffy because most Christians don't like to talk about women being more easily deceived than men, and men being more likely to knowingly sin, and not care.

2.  Most of us believe the Bible teaches that salvation is not by good works (what we do to earn salvation) but by the grace(undeserved mercy and favor) of God.  But this verse states rather plainly that a woman's salvation comes through childbearing if she continues in faith, charity (love), and holiness with sobriety.  Is this a contradiction?  No, the word "salvation" obviously doesn't mean "eternal salvation" from Hell.  It has to mean that in some practical sense of the word, she's "saved" (kept from) from something.  What could that mean?  And that comes on the heels of the verse about Adam and Eve's sin.  Huh.  This point is iffy because some would argue about the roles of a woman.  I'm not talking about the stay-at-home moms vs. the working moms.  I'm talking about the choleric-type women (and these can be stay-at-home moms) who tend to run the Sunday schools, pastoral positions (in some denominations), the prayer meetings, Bible studies, and this, that and the other.  They leave their children with their husbands or a babysitter while they go to do their churchy stuff, often neglecting the sober-minded faith, charity and holiness that is necessary to Christian child-rearing.  This point (point #2) is about doctrine vs. practise.  I would venture to guess that a woman with children would do well to leave the deep doctrinal stuff to the men and worry more about keeping their homes and raising their children.  This is coming from a girl who used to really soak up the doctrine.  Boy, I'd be in there with the men, learning Greek roots and the 5 points of Calvinism and studying Eschatology.  I was bored with my life, really, even while working a fulfilling job.  I had nothing to do except study Eschatology.  Then I got married and had children.  I totally lost interest in doctrine.  I don't even want to hear it now.  I have more important things to do.  I have little people to feed and take care of and encourage and sing "Jesus Loves Me" to.  I'll leave the doctrine to the men.  I need to figure out how to be charitable when I'm exhausted.  I need to figure out how to explain faith to a 5-year-old.  I need to practise and teach holiness in a profane, sensual environment.  I will be "saved" in childbearing.  How?  I will be "saved" from having to worry about doctrine--I have more important things to do.  I will be "saved" from having to work for a living--my husband works so I don't have to provide for my children.  I will be "saved" from having to worry about food and clothing.  I will be "saved" from fear of people taking advantage of me.  I am saved through childbearing when I do my job--continuing in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety, not in making the huge decisions of life.  I can leave that to my husband.  I'm more likely to believe a lie ("This is a perfect car," lies the used car salesman.  "Your fridge can't be fixed.  You'll need to buy a new one from my company," lies the fridge fixer/seller.  "Your husband doesn't really love you, or he would....." lies the sexy man in the next cubicle over.  Many a woman has been taken advantage of in this way.  --Okay, okay, to be fair, sometimes men are taken in by stuff like this too.  But often they can see through it and they know what's going on.)

In short, Adam wasn't deceived.  He understood the consequences of his actions. But he shied away from his responsibility of leadership, as men are wont to do, and Eve took up the slack and made the decision, as women are wont to do. I am saved from worry, saved from work (meaning, being the bread-winner), saved from decision-making, saved from temptation of men in the workplace, saved from all sorts of things, when I'm home tending to my children.

I know this is going to raise not a few eyebrows, especially to those of you un-churchy-type people who regret reading this post and now think I'm insane and that all ><> are.  I hold a very unpopular view.  And I might be wrong.  But I'm very happy. And now the verse makes sense to me.  I am saved.  Not in an eternal sense (oh, well, yes, I'm saved in that sense too), but in a practical sense.


ISTJ, BTD since 5/05.  Battling chronic Lyme disease since ~1985.

"Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial..."  I Corinthians 6:12

Family: 3 As, 1 B, 1 AB, 1 O

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Ribbit  -  Sunday, May 11, 2008, 12:49pm
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JJR
Sunday, May 11, 2008, 1:43pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Drive, you stuck your hand in a blender there boy.  He doesn't have kids, cut him some slack.  

I don't totally disagree with you ribbit.  I would be interested to know what the original meaning of the word "saved" in that passage is.  I agree that it's probably not an eternal salvation from hell meaning, but I don't know.  Maybe I'll ask today.


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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TJ
Sunday, May 11, 2008, 4:14pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Well, it was said tongue in cheek, but I guess that didn't come through.
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Spring
Sunday, May 11, 2008, 6:56pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from TJ
In a nutshell, I believe that verse specifies woman's duty to bear children (provided that she is able to do so).

Of course, women get off lucky.   Child-bearing only can happen during a certain period their lifetime, whilst the man is commanded the eat bread by the sweat of his face all the days of his life!


There are millions of women in this country "eating their bread by the sweat of their brow" all the days of their lives married or not. I haven't seen any men bearing children, though. If I see a young couple in town with the young working mother lugging one child around and another hanging onto her skirt and the man walking a few few away from her blithely going along like he has not a worry in the world, I want to give him a good kick to wake him up! Clueless wonder!   You still want to try the blender???  
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JJR
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Kyosha Nim
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You gals are deserving of so much.  I pray that I can be a good man to my wife and not let her carry all the burdens.  Happy Mother's day to all of you wonderful mothers!!!!!!!!!!!!!  


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Mrs T O+
Sunday, May 11, 2008, 8:40pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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WuHuu! Ribbit, that was a great explanation.  Some may misinterpret it, but I know what you mean. There will be time later for more doctrine or career things. Meanwhile, you have so much to do to raise those kids! [BTW, are you a 3, 4, or 5 point Calvinist? I was a 4-pointer for years, but have made up a doctine called 'progressive Calvinism,' kind of a humorous answer to the big debates on it. When my son went to Dallas, there was a doctrine called progressive dispensationalism...
Dallas is more straight dispensationalism. Really, these doctrines don't change our salvation!!!!]
Hey, Double Nickel(55)! Your first sentence was the best explanation I think I have ever heard. Yes, it is a wonderful thing to have kids & it is natural for normal folks to want a family. In response to a blog, I had commented that I didn't want kids as I had a relatively unhappy childhood, but was willing to change. When I was 26, I had the strong desire to have kids(I think I said 'the bug bit me!'). It is within most of us. The messed-up society has dulled that instinct, but even the toughest yuppies usually develop the interest. It is a very strong thing & I'm sure the human race will keep going.....
Spring, thanks for the reference. I thought it was in Galatians. My memory of verse locations is so bad. I wasn't raised religiously & it is harder to learn certain things as an adult. I retain principles well, but forget dry facts. (No, the Word is not dry, but I hope you know what I mean!)
Back to Ribbit...yes, I think we women are often more vulnerable to temptation as we are more relational & need feedback or 'strokes' more often than men. A few men are very sensitive/relational like my sons, but since I didn't have brothers, I learned more about the non-relational psychology of men in adulthood. But male children are a delight & aren't as 'bad' until they are adults. I am so glad I had sons & they were good talkers like me. I have a good relationship with them, but see some changes. They are 32 & 28.9 now.
Now that we got so waaaaaaaaaaay off topic, let's all go to our MDs that believe in BTD!
Sea Salt & Light,
Mrs "T"      O+


Interested in nutrition, lactation, religion, politics; love to be around people; talkative, sensitive, goofy; a "fishy Christian" ><>; left-handed; lived on a farm, small town & big city; love BTD/GTD; A staunch La Leche League veteran; b. 10/1947 Check BTD/GTD on facebook!

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Mrs T O+  -  Sunday, May 11, 2008, 8:49pm
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TJ
Sunday, May 11, 2008, 9:28pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from 2330
There are millions of women in this country "eating their bread by the sweat of their brow" all the days of their lives married or not. I haven't seen any men bearing children, though. If I see a young couple in town with the young working mother lugging one child around and another hanging onto her skirt and the man walking a few few away from her blithely going along like he has not a worry in the world, I want to give him a good kick to wake him up! Clueless wonder!   You still want to try the blender???  


Spring, my comment was COMPLETELY sarcastic.   Like I said, it apparently didn't come across that way, but that was the intention.  I have watched my own mother and many other mothers who worked two full-time jobs: one for the money, and one for love (i.e. being a mother), and by no means do I believe women have it made on that account.
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Spring
Sunday, May 11, 2008, 10:51pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Drive, I have always said that we need a tongue-in-cheek smilie! I was teasing you, too, about the blender and the big grin was the nearest to a tongue-in-cheek. Some people have used this --) but a smilie would work better if someone could figure out a good one. BTW, I have two sons and they both learned a loooong time ago how I feel about men who don't value their wives! They are good to their wives now, too. That makes me very happy! Just now I was talking to one son on the phone and suddenly I could hear his wife doing a mild scream in the background. He got right off the phone to see about her. Later, he told me that nothing was wrong she had just seen a spider in the bathroom. I said, what do you mean, don't you know that is a major crisis????? I do NOT like spiders!!! NOT, I tell you!  
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JJR
Sunday, May 11, 2008, 10:53pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Sure, backtracking now.

Just kidding.  I believe you.  It's apparent us guys have to stick together.  Hehehhehhahahahhah  


The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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Ribbit
Monday, May 12, 2008, 5:16pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Oh, whew!  I thought I was going to start a big spat with that one.  Drive, I didn't know you were being sarcastic.  I'm sorry.  Of course, had I known it, I probably wouldn't have written that whole long post, and I really like a couple of things I said, so I'm glad I wrote it out.

The word "saved" there, according to Strong's Concordance, means protected, like I assumed it must.  Here we go (It's #4982 in the Greek Dictionary if you want to look it up):

to save, i.e. deliver or protect (lit.or fig.):-heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.


So a woman would be delivered, protected, healed, preserved, made whole (fulfilled?) in child bearing/rearing.  I have certainly found that to be the case.  

I appreciate y'all's comments.


ISTJ, BTD since 5/05.  Battling chronic Lyme disease since ~1985.

"Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial..."  I Corinthians 6:12

Family: 3 As, 1 B, 1 AB, 1 O
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Mayflowers
Monday, May 12, 2008, 5:34pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I'll stay out of this one. I'm in enough trouble.
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Spring
Monday, May 12, 2008, 10:06pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Whut trouble you talking 'bout, Mayflowers? I ain't seen no trouble!
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TJ
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Kyosha Nim
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All's well that ends well.  I should know by now that sarcasm isn't transmitted effectively via the written word, yet occasionally, I have to stick my hand in the blender again to see if the blades are still turning.
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Quoted from Ribbit
Oh, whew!  I thought I was going to start a big spat with that one.  Drive, I didn't know you were being sarcastic.  I'm sorry.  Of course, had I known it, I probably wouldn't have written that whole long post, and I really like a couple of things I said, so I'm glad I wrote it out.

The word "saved" there, according to Strong's Concordance, means protected, like I assumed it must.  Here we go (It's #4982 in the Greek Dictionary if you want to look it up):

to save, i.e. deliver or protect (lit.or fig.):-heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.


So a woman would be delivered, protected, healed, preserved, made whole (fulfilled?) in child bearing/rearing.  I have certainly found that to be the case.  

I appreciate y'all's comments.


That must explain why us guys now feel like we're run down after having kids and not "saved".  JUST KIDDING!!!!!!



The poster formerly known as "ABNOWAY"

"Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Phillipians 4:8
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funkymuse
Tuesday, May 13, 2008, 3:37am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I feel it means that when you have a child that your heart and soul open in a way that does not happen when you don't.  So many women talk of how they are changed when they have that little one and many talk of how their lives were saved.

My husband says his son saved his life, as he was on a downward spiral in life and having that little boy gave him a whole new outlook.

It's someone to love and cherish in a way that you just cannot know until  you have one yourself.  It's a true gift to be able to birth a new life.  
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Spring
Tuesday, May 13, 2008, 4:12am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Amen, Funky!!
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