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Spring
Monday, February 4, 2008, 3:44pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I posted the following on the Warrior thread, but I would like some information about this issue ASAP. Nearly everything we Warriors are supposed to be eating the most of seems to be loaded with oxalates. Now, I won't be enjoying anything I eat today until I get more information about this. I hope I don't have to wait weeks to finally get an answer---only after someone else keeps bringing it up the way it was with the white beans.

http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=dailytip&dbid=53

Here is another very good source on the same site:    http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=48#answer

I would suggest reading this whole page if you are concerned about oxalates. I think we need some clarification about this concern. I read that list and some days I eat at least two or more servings from every single one of these groups - in fact, they are superfoods for us! No doubt, we are getting a very high quanity of this stuff every day! No doubt about it. Like 750 milligrams per 100 gram serving of spinach - 610 per 100 gram serving of beet greens. I think I'm going to stick with okra and collard greens in the "green" family until we hear more about this. In fact, since I was already eating many of these foods before I started on this diet, it makes me wonder if that is why I have osteopenia anyway. (This problem has NEVER run in my family! None of my grandparents, my parents or siblings ever had a broken bone and neither have I, so far.)  No wonder I have been desperately wanting some type of dairy product that was acceptable. I do hope our moderators will see to it that we get some help with this. I am definitely concerned.

Now, I will go and have a serving of REAL yogurt and take my calcium, magnesium and Vitamin D. ----And we started off being concerned about chocolate?! Wow!
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Dr. D
Monday, February 4, 2008, 4:05pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Peter D'Adamo
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You can't have a flavone (anti-oxidant) rich food without it almost always being an oxalate rich food as well. While not great in high amounts for people who have kidney stones (and even then just about the only people who do go on to form stones have metabolic syndrome), oxalic acids do possess anticancer effects, increase intracellular energy and lower p-glycoprotein.

http://www.dadamo.com/wordpress/?p=5


A whole system is a living system is a learning system.’ -Stewart Brand
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Spring
Monday, February 4, 2008, 6:09pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Thanks, so much, Dr. D. Wheeeee, now I can stop worrying. I knew there had to be something completely valid out there. I had rather have osteopenia any day than lose the benefits of foods containing anti-oxidants, etc.. Also, another benefit of your post was the reference to the metabolic syndrone connection to kidney stones. My young daughter-in-law has suffered terribly from kidney stones since she was a teenager. So I will follow up on this for her. She is only 4 feet 10 inches and a Hunter - 'way too much suffering for such a little, young thing. Boy, does she ever have the spunk, though! We love her to death. You can't tell, can you?
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Chloe
Monday, February 4, 2008, 10:32pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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WOW~  How interesting to find out  that people most likely to form kidney stones almost always have metabolic syndrome~  

This is a more in depth article related the original info I shared from Dr. Mercola's site
re: oxalates.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/95208.php


"The happiest people don't have the best of everything.....they know how to make the best of everything!"
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Beckyb
Tuesday, February 26, 2008, 10:44pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

I am fearfully and wonderfully made Ps.139:14
Kyosha Nim
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Can anyone suggest a Gatherer low oxalate spinach alternative? Since I've developed a mild case of hyperoxalia  I need to avoid foods with higher ratings of oxalates. I do hate to give up my spinach! I had been eating spinach twice a day, most days. A little too much of a good thing as it turns out. Are there any other leafy greens that definitely fall into the low oxalate range? There seems to be some controversy about turnip greens. I'd appreciate any input on this.

Thanks in advance  


Rh+,Mesomorph,Gatherer, BTD since 1998.
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italybound
Tuesday, February 26, 2008, 10:46pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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http://www.branwen.com/rowan/oxalate.htm

check out this page..........apply foods for your type.  



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Beckyb
Tuesday, February 26, 2008, 10:52pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

I am fearfully and wonderfully made Ps.139:14
Kyosha Nim
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Thanks for the reply, italybound. I have this info and also a table from the low oxalate cook book. The problem is, I haven't been able to identify any low oxalate leafy greens that can be cooked up like spinach. The closest I can get is romaine lettuce.


Rh+,Mesomorph,Gatherer, BTD since 1998.
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Spring
Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 12:41am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Beckyb
Can anyone suggest a Gatherer low oxalate spinach alternative? Since I've developed a mild case of hyperoxalia  I need to avoid foods with higher ratings of oxalates. I do hate to give up my spinach! I had been eating spinach twice a day, most days. A little too much of a good thing as it turns out. Are there any other leafy greens that definitely fall into the low oxalate range? There seems to be some controversy about turnip greens. I'd appreciate any input on this.

Thanks in advance  


I was just reading what the Mayo Clinic site had to say about hyperoxaluria, (is this the same thing you are talking about?) and they prescribe prescription dose B-6 for this ailment. They say this reduces the amount of oxalate produced by the liver. Interesting, to say the least. Would the high amount of oxalates in the Warrior diet be the reason Dr. D. recommends B-6 for them?? I have been taking extra B-6 for the last thirty years, so I'm 'way ahead of the game on this because I have ALWAYS eaten a lot of the high oxalate foods!

My daughter-in-law has had a tendency to have kidney stones in the past. I will show her this Mayo article about oxalates. Very interesting indeed. http://www.mayoclinic.org/hyperoxaluria/options.html
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Schluggell
Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 9:00am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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There is a difference between raw & cooked vegetables in terms of the resultant Oxalate - As it is a byproduct from reacting the Oxalic Acid that is actually present in the veggies....

Also eating foods earlier in the season rather than later in the year -Like Silica tends to develop from late spring onwards..

Because of the above you will find much conflicting food info - and many foods that have not been tested - There is definitely more to the story than simply the oxalate. Metabolic processes & how you prepare the foods will be more important in the end.

http://www.carrotcafe.com/f/oxveggie.html


Herr Schlüggell -- Establish a Garden; Cultivate Community. "To see things in the seed, that is genius. He who obtains has little. He who scatters has much. The way to do is to be." -Lao Tzu
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Beckyb
Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 2:13pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

I am fearfully and wonderfully made Ps.139:14
Kyosha Nim
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Spring and Schluggell, thanks for your responses!

I've been supplementing with extra B-6 for some time now in addition to the calcium and potassium citrate and any number of other herbs. Just last night I came across some interesting information on a couple of ayurvedic formulas that seem to hold promise. Himalaya has something called "Cystone" also known as "Uricare" that is comprised of several ayurvedic components. I also understand that adding "tribulus terrestris" may be helpful. It can't hurt to try these so I'm going to give it a whirl.

Shcluggell, you are so right about the conflicting food info. - This is what makes it so exasperating for me to make determinations about what I can eat at the moment, given my current circumstance. In any case the link you provided looks helpful and I appreciate it very much!  



Rh+,Mesomorph,Gatherer, BTD since 1998.
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Beckyb
Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 2:17pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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PS. Yes Spring, I meant to initially say that I've developed hyperoxaluria, not hyperoxalia.


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Carol the Dabbler
Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 3:45pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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My impression is that, in general, anything from the cabbage family (which includes turnip greens) is lower in oxylates than anything from the spinach family.

That's not scientific, just my vague recollection from bits & pieces that I've read over the years, plus the fact that cabbage-family greens have a different mouthfeel than spinach-family greens.  The latter tend to make my teeth feel temporarily roughened (or maybe they just make my tongue more sensitive?) -- though the worst offender in that regard is rhubarb, which is also high in oxalic acid, but is in the buckwheat family.


Carol

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Carol the Dabbler
Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 4:08pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Here's a link to a table on the USDA web site: http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=9444.  It looks to be the same chart that the Carrot Cafe data came from, but lists about twice as many items.


Carol

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Spring
Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 4:08pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Beckyb
PS. Yes Spring, I meant to initially say that I've developed hyoperoxaluria, not hyperoxalia.


Becky, have you had any problems before this diagnosis? I would guess there must have been something or they wouldn't have done the test. There does seem to be an awful lot they don't know about this problem. Did you read the post where Dr. D. addressed oxalates?

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Spring
Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 4:36pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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After reading Becky's post about spinach, I've done some more reading about oxalates. It seems that calcium and magnesium is a great help with keeping the level of this stuff down because of binding with it in the stomach. Which seems to mean that this is a good thing instead of something bad. We just need to make sure we get plenty of calcium. Right? Of course, everything we learn supports the absolute necessity of eating a balanced diet anyway.
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Mrs T O+
Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 4:48pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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We are starting to eat cooked escarole & endive. I think they are delicious & mild tasting. Most of you eat them raw. I guess I'm weird as I don't like them raw, but enjoy them cooked. The cook quickly & I like them with olive oil. Others who eat lemon with greens may do that also.
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Interested in nutrition, lactation, religion, politics; love to be around people; talkative, sensitive, goofy; a "fishy Christian" ><>; left-handed; lived on a farm, small town & big city; love BTD/GTD; A staunch La Leche League veteran; b. 10/1947 Check BTD/GTD on facebook!
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Spring
Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 5:08pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Carol the Dabbler

Here's a link to a table on the USDA web site: http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=9444.  It looks to be the same chart that the Carrot Cafe data came from, but lists about twice as many items.


Thanks for posting this, Carol. This is the best list I've seen. One list I saw didn't even mention spinach!! Kale and turnip greens seem to be good alternatives. I've eaten a lot of kale lately.
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Carol the Dabbler
Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 6:17pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 2330
Thanks for posting this, Carol. This is the best list I've seen.




You're welcome!

I'm amazed to see how many of the Teacher Toxins have high oxalic-acid levels.  Maybe that was one of Dr. D's criteria.



Carol

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Beckyb
Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 8:04pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Carol, thanks so much for posting that more complete table. I'll try the turnip greens with caution and see how I fare.

Spring, yes, I did read Dr. D's post on oxalates.

And, no, I've not had any problems along this line before now that I know of. To be honest, I've not been to an MD with this. Haven't found one I trust.
This web site has been very useful, though:
http://lowoxalate.info/index.html
My symptoms are well described here.


Rh+,Mesomorph,Gatherer, BTD since 1998.
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Spring
Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 8:36pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Becky, I was having some of these same symptoms described on this page when I was howling about those BEANS! I determined that I was going to eat diamonds come what may (I think several others were doing this also) and see if the combination of these powerful foods would straighten out my stomach. My stomach had hurt since I was a child but I didn't realize that until I finally, finally got some relief on the Warrior diet. After that first day of no pain, which was several days after starting, there was no turning back for me. I WAS HOOKED! I had some ups and downs with detox after that but it didn't matter, I kept right on going! I feel great - so many, many positives.

This is just a thought, but maybe when we've had times when we feel like we need something and can't figure out what, it might be a good idea to think about what we've had the last several hours before that. Maybe if we've had spinach, we need some calcium, etc.

I think if your stomach feels happy after you eat you're doing something right! I am a GREAT believer in probiotics and have been for over 20 years. They don't solve everything but they are definitely a big part of the picture. Eating a little ghee every day has done wonders for my stomach too. Leaving off corn is a MAJOR improvement. Simply eating blackberries, grapes or peaches instead of the super duper blueberry has made a huge difference.

Another surprise for me is how much better I am assimilating my supplements. I don't need nearly as much as I did before to feel really great.

Have you considered trying the Geno diet? Maybe you've mentioned this and are already on it but I missed it.
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Beckyb
Wednesday, February 27, 2008, 10:20pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

I am fearfully and wonderfully made Ps.139:14
Kyosha Nim
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Yep. I'm following the Geno Type diet and it's great. I do faithfully take the Polyflora O and am usually very disciplined about eating the superfoods. A little too much so in the case of spinach the past three years, though.

Thanks for the encouragement  


Rh+,Mesomorph,Gatherer, BTD since 1998.
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Carol the Dabbler
Thursday, February 28, 2008, 12:31am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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In addition to eating a balanced diet (in the sense of eating appropriate amounts from all the food groups), it's also important to eat a variety of foods within each group.  And it's even better if the variety comes from different botanical families.

Beckyb mentioned on the other oxylate thread that she had been eating spinach twice a day, every day.  As she now realizes, she would have been better off eating spinach (from the spinach family) some of the time, kale (from the cabbage family) some of the time, and so on.  This will automatically normalize not only one's oxylate intake, but most other nutrients as well.

For those who would like some idea of how much oxalic acid they're eating, here's a link that I posted on that other thread: http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=9444



Carol

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Spring
Thursday, February 28, 2008, 12:34am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Beckyb
Yep. I'm following the Geno Type diet and it's great. I do faithfully take the Polyflora O and am usually very disciplined about eating the superfoods. A little too much so in the case of spinach the past three years, though.

Thanks for the encouragement  


Yes, I was eating 'way too many blueberries (not the best fruit for me) with cereal that had a little corn in it and blaming all my symptoms on soy milk! I thought my digestion had gone haywire because I was having trouble with chicken. I was eating a LOT of it. It is a no-no for me now so I don't have to worry about solving that problem! It really is nice when some things just take care of themselves!
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Schluggell
Thursday, February 28, 2008, 1:56pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Carol the Dabbler
..That's not scientific, just my vague recollection from bits & pieces that I've read over the years, plus the fact that cabbage-family greens have a different mouthfeel than spinach-family greens...though the worst offender in that regard is rhubarb, which is also high in oxalic acid, but is in the buckwheat family.


In the end we have to rely on our own instincts, regardless of the establishment...Well said really.

15+ years ago I was curious about the Rhubarb thing myself...actually spent time wading thru the medical literature.
At that time the only cases I found of Oxalate poisoning due to Rhubarb was because of the cooked Rhubarb {not the leaves}, in fact no cases of any issue due to eating the raw leaves either. That does not mean I would wholeheartedly recommend this, but it is interesting to note.

One day the establishment will put more weight to seasonal changes of our foods, until then....



Herr Schlüggell -- Establish a Garden; Cultivate Community. "To see things in the seed, that is genius. He who obtains has little. He who scatters has much. The way to do is to be." -Lao Tzu
Bruno Manser, Ned Lud, August Sabbe, Richard St. Barbe-Baker, Eddie Koiki Mabo, Masanobu Fukuoka
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Spring
Thursday, February 28, 2008, 2:53pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Here is a link to an interesting study on cooking taro using milk:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/s.....d4d75e9a5324fbd95263
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