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Where's the neutral list?  This thread currently has 2,317 views. Print Print Thread
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shazamda
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 4:07pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I hear mention of a neutral list in some of the Genotype Diet threads.  I haven't found a neutral list in the book, is it online somewhere?  I understand that if a food is not included in the superfood list or avoid list it is considered neutral, but I need a neutral list to give me some ideas, I'm no good at thinking up foods that are missing.  
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Peppermint Twist
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 4:27pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from shazamda
I hear mention of a neutral list in some of the Genotype Diet threads.  I haven't found a neutral list in the book, is it online somewhere?  I understand that if a food is not included in the superfood list or avoid list it is considered neutral, but I need a neutral list to give me some ideas, I'm no good at thinking up foods that are missing.  

Well, the thing is, everything that isn't listed on the superfood or toxin list is considered neutral for your type, there is no list per se, as it would be HUGE.  The neutral foods are all the foods that are rated neutral for your type, as well as all the foods that are unknown/unrated for the GTD system, so this is the same as the BTD:  neutrals were all neutrals plus anything untested/unrated.  The difference is that there is no actual list of GTD neutrals, whereas, with the BTD, any tested neutrals were listed.  Unknown foods that weren't listed could be considered neutrals.  You don't really need to "think up foods that are missing", you just need to focus on including mainly superfoods every day and, if you do want to eat a certain food and you don't see it on either list (superfoods or toxins), you will know it is neutral and may be consumed.

I like the way it is in the GTD system better, since there are so many neutrals that we just don't need 'em listed, what we need to be concentrating on is definitely including the superfoods daily and trying to exclude the toxins to avoid.  Neutrals are there to provide much-needed and welcomed variety and depth to the diet.  If you have a food in mind to eat and it isn't listed, you'll know it is neutral.  As far as having trouble "thinking up" foods, you are kinda sorta on your own there.  All the diet does is tell you which foods are excellent for you, which are to be avoided, and that all others can be enjoyed as neutrals.


"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Vicki
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 4:29pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Individuals are making their own neutral lists.  One way to gather the other foods is to combine all the foods from all the gentoypes in the book, and then identify the toxins, black dot, superfoods and diamond foods.  Everything else will be neutral.

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Peppermint Twist
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 4:32pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Vicki
Individuals are making their own neutral lists.  One way to gather the other foods is to combine all the foods from all the gentoypes in the book, and then identify the toxins, black dot, superfoods and diamond foods.  Everything else will be neutral.

To me--and this is just my opinion--that seems like an unneeded waste of time and energy.  The GTD is a very elegant system because it tells us that anything not listed in our superfoods or toxins to avoid lists is considered neutral.

edited to add:  I deleted the rest of my post here because I said the same stuff better, more elaborately, and more clearly (I hope) in future posts in this thread.



"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Peppermint Twist  -  Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 7:27pm
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rustyk10
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 4:41pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Unless I've missed it I think that makes cream a neutral!
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Carol the Dabbler
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 4:44pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I'm compiling Neutral lists for Teachers (and have already posted the Fruits and Live Foods lists).  It would be good if those who are compiling Neutral lists for other GenoTypes would also post them.

I've never seen the logic of calling untested foods Neutral, however.  I know Dr. D has said something like that, but I assume he meant that's as good a guess as any.  It made more sense on the BTD, where most foods actually were Neutrals -- but on the GTD, it looks to me like foods are split about evenly into thirds.

I prefer to think of foods that have tested Neutral for my type as Neutrals, and untested foods as Unknowns.  I mean, suppose Durian hadn't been tested yet -- it would still be really good for Teachers, though we wouldn't know it -- and even if Kangaroo hadn't been tested yet, it'd still be really bad for us.

That's why I've been compiling the list of Teacher Neutrals.  I've been starting by making an alphabetical list of everything that *is* listed for Teachers (Superfoods and Toxins) -- but one could do the same thing with a photocopy of the printed lists.  Then I go through the lists for all of the other GenoTypes, writing down any foods that are NOT on my list.  Those foods have apparently been tested, and if they're neither Superfoods nor Toxins for Teachers, then they must be Neutrals for us.  Once I've gone through everything, I copy my list of Neutrals into the book (again, alphabetically, for ease of referral) in a column between the Teacher Superfoods and the Teacher Toxins -- and I also post it on this forum.



Carol

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Vicki
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 5:13pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Many of us have more than one Genotype to consider.  For instance, if your child is an A then you may want to know what the neutrals are for Warrior AND Teacher AND Explorer because you cannot measure them yet.

Just one example of using a neutral list.

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koahiatamadl
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 5:23pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from shazamda
I hear mention of a neutral list in some of the Genotype Diet threads.  I haven't found a neutral list in the book, is it online somewhere?  I understand that if a food is not included in the superfood list or avoid list it is considered neutral, but I need a neutral list to give me some ideas, I'm no good at thinking up foods that are missing.  


I suggest making a list of your pre GTD regular meals and checking them off against the GTD lists.  Any avoids will drop out and you're left with beneficials and neutrals.  Same goes for any new recipes you come across.  
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Peppermint Twist
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 6:58pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Carol the Dabbler

I'm compiling Neutral lists for Teachers (and have already posted the Fruits and Live Foods lists).  It would be good if those who are compiling Neutral lists for other GenoTypes would also post them.

I've never seen the logic of calling untested foods Neutral, however.  I know Dr. D has said something like that, but I assume he meant that's as good a guess as any.  It made more sense on the BTD, where most foods actually were Neutrals -- but on the GTD, it looks to me like foods are split about evenly into thirds.

I prefer to think of foods that have tested Neutral for my type as Neutrals, and untested foods as Unknowns.  I mean, suppose Durian hadn't been tested yet -- it would still be really good for Teachers, though we wouldn't know it -- and even if Kangaroo hadn't been tested yet, it'd still be really bad for us.

That's why I've been compiling the list of Teacher Neutrals.  I've been starting by making an alphabetical list of everything that *is* listed for Teachers (Superfoods and Toxins) -- but one could do the same thing with a photocopy of the printed lists.  Then I go through the lists for all of the other GenoTypes, writing down any foods that are NOT on my list.  Those foods have apparently been tested, and if they're neither Superfoods nor Toxins for Teachers, then they must be Neutrals for us.  Once I've gone through everything, I copy my list of Neutrals into the book (again, alphabetically, for ease of referral) in a column between the Teacher Superfoods and the Teacher Toxins -- and I also post it on this forum.

Pardon my density, but I don't get the logic of this at all.  

But before I get to that, let me get to something else:  first of all, regarding something I've seen posted that neutral foods should only be eaten 2 to 5 times per week.  Neutral foods may be eaten more than 2 to 5 times per week.  Here is a quote from the food list section of all the genotypes' diets, with bolded emphasis added by me:

"If a food is not listed, it is essentially neutral, meaning that the nutrients in it will benefit you but won't specifically help you restore balance to your genes or health to your cells.  Feel free to eat these foods--but don't neglect the foods I recommend."

If elsewhere he suggests 2 to 5 times per week as a frequency, it is probably just so that folks won't make the neutrals staples of their diets and neglect the superfoods in the process, but if you were to eat a neutral more than five times per week, it would be perfectly fine, imho.

Now, back to responding to your quote: I do not see a need to make lists of all the neutral foods.  The GTD is a very elegant system that says anything NOT on the superfood or toxin list is neutral.  Unlike with the BTD, you can't know and are simply assuming that something is either "tested" or not tested for your type if you don't see it listed for any other type, either.  There is no objective lectin-reaction type test for each and every food, although some specific foods have ratings that are probably based at least in part on that.  But this is a totally different diet system than the BTD!  There may not be any specific "test" for certain foods that determines why they are superfoods or toxins, it may be that, based on the total epigenetic profile of a given type, Dr. D. has decided, based on his research, experience and talent, that such-and-such a food would be good or bad for the person, OR neutral.  Just because you don't see it listed as a superfood or toxin for any other type, doesn't mean that he hasn't actively decided it is a neutral for ALL types.  You can't assume it is an "unknown", it could be a known universal neutral.  Again, the GTD is a totally different system in terms of determining a food's rating than the BTD, which in the vast majority of cases based a food's rating on lectin-blood type reaction.  So you really can't tell the diff between a "tested" or untested/unknown neutral, as you can with the BTD.  It isn't equivalent.  There is no one standard "test" for rating the foods.  This is a difference in the two systems.  One diet is based, for the most part, on ONE classic system of rating the foods:  lectin reaction with ABO blood type antigen.  The other is based on an entire overall genetic profile and which foods Dr. D'Adamo thinks would interact best with that type's genetic strengths and weaknesses to be a superfood for that type (and which would be neutrals and toxins to avoid).

I just TOTALLY don't see the point or logic in making a list of neutrals, except in the situation Vicki points out of having different types in the house, but even then, why not just look in the book for each type, and if it isn't a superfood or toxin, know that it is neutral?

I guess I'm just not following the logic of making a list of neutrals at all, sorry.  I mean, whatever floats your boat, but it seems like a lot of pointless effort to me in order to create what is already given to us:  everything not in the superfoods or toxins is neutral.  What could be more clear or simple?



"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Peppermint Twist  -  Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 7:05pm
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Jenny
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 7:16pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Peppermint Twist



I prefer to make life easy on myself and just go with what the good doc said re anything not listed for your type is neutral.  I am all about simplicity!  If I want to know the status of jackfruit, I can quickly see it isn't on my superfood or toxins list, so "Oh, it is neutral".  The only thing I wouldn't know is if it is a food that is actually rated as such, or a food not yet rated, but frankly, the beauty part is, I don't care.  Neutral is neutral to me.


I so agree.
Jenny



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Peppermint Twist
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 7:19pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Okay, hold up, I thought of a more succinct way to state this (incredible to believe, yet true!):

The GTD is TOTALLY diff from the BTD in terms of how foods are rated:  just because something is not listed for any type, you can't assume it's status is "unknown", as it could be something Dr. D. has determined is neutral for all types, AND there isn't any one "test" for rating the foods as there was with the BTD, rather the GTD is based on Dr. D'Adamo's decisions, based upon the ENTIRE profile for a given type and the ENTIRE properties of a given food.  Of course, there are still some un-evaluated foods out there in the world, but you have no way to know which those are and which are actually evaluated neutrals.  You can drive yourself as crazy as you like, but you aren't going to know.  You just have to accept that the category of "neutrals" is, as Dr. D. wrote, a category of foods that can be eaten freely.  If one day in the future you find out that something you've been treating as a neutral is actually a toxin to avoid for you, or a superfood, so much the better.  But in the meantime, why drive yourself nuts over it?

Is it just me or do you see what I'm saying?  Why not just rejoice in the large number of neutrals available on this diet, and assume that the vast majority actually were evaluated as such?  Sure, there are a few unevaluated foods out there, but most common foods have been thoughtfully placed into the neutral category, if they are there.  That's what I think, anyway.



"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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shazamda
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 7:25pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Peppermint Twist
  Simple, easy, no worries.
I prefer to make life easy on myself and just go with what the good doc said re anything not listed for your type is neutral.  I am all about simplicity!  

Ah, were it so easy for the epicurially challenged.  

Iím just a single dude who has never had to keep anyone elseís taste buds entertained.  So I have fallen into habits, shopping for familiar foods in cycles since I sometimes rotated my foods.  Now most of my familiar foods are not available.  

Iíve never made a casserole or baked a cake or pie, never baked potatoes of any kind or cooked greens.  Donít know how to cook fish or steak, Iíve never eaten it at home before. Never knew there was such a thing as arugula, or pummelo.  But I can make a killer chocolate martini.      Iím definitely willing to learn, I just need the help of a neutral list to get ideas.  

Iím not complaining and Iím not about to give up, although I think the Explorer diet is more difficult than the A+ nonnie diet.  Maybe itís just more unfamiliar.  I felt better when I started the BTD and expect to feel better still on the GTD.  

But since I am no chef I need the crutch of a neutral list to get new ideas.  

I'll see if I can find the time to build a list from what's in the book.
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Peppermint Twist
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 7:37pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from shazamda
since I am no chef I need the crutch of a neutral list to get new ideas.  

I'll see if I can find the time to build a list from what's in the book.

Well, now, at least that logic makes sense to me:  if someone just plain wanted a list of basically every food in the world that isn't a superfood or toxin for your type, I guess you could go for it and it would at least be a justified use of your time and energy, as then you would have something to spark ideas for recipes, etc.

I guess my frustration is with the other logic given for making a list of neutrals:  that it will somehow tell you which are "tested" neutrals and which are unknown/unevaluated neutrals.  We can't know that with this system.  The rating of each food is based on multiple factors inherent to the food and how those multiple factors interact with the multiple factors inherent to the genotype's profile.  So I'm assuming that most neutrals have been evaluated, and certainly more than a few foods out there in the world have not, but that all of them are neutrals.  A neutral is a neutral is a neutral.  Focus on superfoods, enjoy neutrals as desired, avoid toxins.



That said, if someone such as yourself wishes to list as many of the neutrals as you can possibly think of, so that you can have a creative aid for thinking of recipes, etc., go for it.  Personally, I'm WAAAAAAY too lazy for that:  I'll think of the recipe first, then see what the ratings of the individual ingredients are!

It would be nice for example, though, as a Gatherer, to get ideas for veggies, because our superfood veggies are kinda sparse, but I can just notice veggies in the store and then figure out if they are neutrals.  The "listing all neutrals" thing to me just seems like a big old time consuming thing that I don't need to do.  But to each his or her own!  Just don't do it in order to figure out what are "tested" versus "unknown" neutrals, because that way lies madness, me thinks.  You will never know that with the GTD.  Something unlisted for all the types could very easily be a food that has been thoughtfully evaluated by our bril Dr. D. and found to be just that:  neutral for all types.  And that, ultimately, is all I'm trying to say (I know, I know:  took me long enough.)





"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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shazamda
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 7:46pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Hi Peppermint Twist,  Your keyboard must be on fire!     That's the most words I've ever seen posted in such a short period of time.  You must have a typing speed over 100.  
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Kristin
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 8:06pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from shazamda

Ah, were it so easy for the epicurially challenged.  

But since I am no chef I need the crutch of a neutral list to get new ideas.  


I'm right with ya, shazamda... and I have been cooking for a family most of my adult life. I do need to see it in print to remember that it is acceptable to eat. I'm just a visual learner, I guess.

But one of the problems that I have had with the no neutrals listed is that I assumed that a food was neutral when it wasn't... I looked in the wrong category. For instance, since chocolate is a black dot food for Nomads, I noticed that carob was not listed along with chocolate in the spices section... so I assumed that it was a neutral. Little did I know that carob is also a black dot food... but listed in the vegetable proteins section. I would never have thought to look for carob in that section and just happened to notice it but unfortunately after I had already went perusing for compliant carob in the health food store.

Until I become more familiar with the GTD, a neutral list would be very helpful to me.



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Peppermint Twist
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 8:40pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from shazamda
Hi Peppermint Twist,  Your keyboard must be on fire!     That's the most words I've ever seen posted in such a short period of time.  You must have a typing speed over 100.  

   Actually, I probably do, as the last time my typing speed was tested was 1999 and it was 97 wpm (with no errors--yay!).

I don't know why I got so fired up over this topic, of all things, but I did.  Someone made the point to me privately though, as has been pointed out here, that neutral lists can be useful for multi-type households and for entertaining.  And that is fine, I grok that.  My concern is about people maybe not getting that the GTD food rating and listing system is really different from that of the BTD.  The GTD doesn't just test food for one thing, it compares the food as a whole to your genotype profile as a whole, and there could be foods that test out under that system as neutral for all, thus there could be a food that is totally unlisted in the book for any of the types, yet HAS actually been rated as neutral.  This is different from the BTD, where all tested neutrals are listed.  In the GTD, we just have to go on our trust of Dr. D. that neutrals can be consumed freely and that most of them, anyway, have been evaluated very thoughtfully, based on multiple criteria.  We cannot assume that a food that is totally unlisted is an "unknown", as we could with the BTD, where all tested neutrals were listed.  That's all I am trying to say.

And for some reason, I got myself all fired up about it!    


"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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mikeo
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 8:45pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Vicki
Many of us have more than one Genotype to consider.  For instance, if your child is an A then you may want to know what the neutrals are for Warrior AND Teacher AND Explorer because you cannot measure them yet.

Just one example of using a neutral list.





Just keep them on the A with secretor status diet...it's still a great diet



RHN MIfHI
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Carol the Dabbler
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 9:20pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Peppermint Twist
I guess my frustration is with the other logic given for making a list of neutrals:  that it will somehow tell you which are "tested" neutrals and which are unknown/unevaluated neutrals.  We can't know that with this system.


You're absolutely right, Edna, we seem to have no way to tell the difference between foods that have not been tested and foods that are Neutral for all GenoTypes.  The best we can do right now is to figure out some foods that have been tested (by seeing them listed for other GenoTypes) but are neither Superfoods nor Toxins for our GenoType -- so they must be Neutral for us.  In other words, we can know for pretty-sure that some foods really are "official" Neutrals.

If this whole exercise doesn't float your boat, please feel free to ignore us!  



Carol

A+ nonnie married to an A+ secretor
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Spring
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 10:09pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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From my reading, I understand that this year is going to be the year that umpteen new so-called "healthy" additives are going to be foisted into the food of an unsuspecting public. Some of them have been appearing for some time. Take cottage cheese, for instance.  Cultured cottage cheese is an acceptable food for Warriors and maybe some others, but the industry is adding plain old milk and cream to the cultured product that has not been cultured.  This may not bother some people - even Warriors - but that is an unadulterated poison to people like me who absolutely cannot tolerate any uncultured dairy product. So you people with this problem be warned - it is next to impossible to find cottage cheese that is truly a super food. Then, there is yogurt.  Instead of culturing yogurt the way it is supposed to be done, many companies (several of which are selling "organic super-duper natural products" at sky high prices) are merely adding a few types of probiotics to plain old milk sans culturing and calling it yogurt! I have talked to some of them about this and they have admitted it. Shame on them!! What is even trickier about this mess is that people with a strong reaction to plain milk might not notice the pain in their gut until they eat something else later. A high percentage of the time they will blame THAT food for the pain instead of the the real culprit - uncultured milk. A recent additive that some seem to think the world cannot do without (see those $$$$ signs?) is inulin\F.O.S. They are putting the stuff into untold products and I WOULD REALLY AND TRULY LIKE TO HEAR WHAT DR. D'S OPINION IS OF THIS PRACTICE. If he thinks it is okay - fine and dandy. Otherwise, I am really afraid to eat this stuff. I finally found what I thought was a good, cultured yogurt only to see that they have added this product. I have had too much trouble with yeast overgrowth in years past to be taking a chance with this stuff if there is a risk - not to mention some other possible problems. We need to speak up about some of these things before the food industry goes completely nuts, if they haven't already.
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Carol the Dabbler
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 10:48pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 2330
Instead of culturing yogurt the way it is supposed to be done, many companies (several of which are selling "organic super-duper natural products" at sky high prices) are merely adding a few types of probiotics to plain old milk sans culturing and calling it yogurt! I have talked to some of them about this and they have admitted it.


How do they give it the look and feel of yogurt?  Add thickeners?  How can one tell the difference between those products and cultured yogurt with added thickeners?



Carol

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funkymuse
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 11:08pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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As I look at the Hunter lists for certain foods and they are NOT listed, I write them out to the side in the margain of the book with the title.  So I have a little column of Neutrals by each category of food.

I'm running with the GT diet all the way.  

I'm trying new foods and working to come up with new cooking techniques.  

I've lost my craving for sugar and at times don't even finish the food on my plate.

I eat what I consider to be full healthy portions and compliant snacks and still I've lost weight and continue to do so.

I've had a couple of non-compliant moments and most likely will continue to have a few - but I'm working hard not to have many and in the long run, I'm sure I will be 100% healthier than I've ever been in my compulsive 'let's be as skinny as we can' manic dieting days.

I'm excited to finally see in all my 49 years of life on this earth what my body really is happy at... weight and size wise.  I've never ever known as I've forced myself down to insane sizes and weights or I've been bloated and in pain from binging.

I find the Hunter diet rich and nutritious.  Yes I'm having some detox but mostly because my body adapted to processing junk - and now it's readjusting and cleansing itself.

Until I get through approx. 6 weeks of eating this way, I won't be able to truthfully know if I have food allergies or intolerances.

I find this to be exciting science and I'm so happy to be one of Dr. D's hungry Guinea Pigs - hungry for a way to freedom from sugar addition, hungry for a way to freedom from pain, hungry for a life where I can give my gifts to the world and not be focused on 'dieting,' and staving all the time.  

We can all get obsessed about stuff.  For me again, I'm working to make this as easy as possible on myself by listing neutrals in my book as I go along.

I'm sorry for the folks who don't get into cooking and exploring... I'm always 'HUNTING' for new ways to make dishes and new foods to bring to the table.

ha...

I'm sure some of other other long term guys on this board would be happy to chip in with some hints on how to make preparing these foods easy for yourself.

much luck.

  
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Brighid45
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 11:21pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Rather than compiling huge lists of neutrals, how about making a list of your type's superfoods and toxins and taking it with you when you go shopping? If you can't find the food on your list, you know it's neutral and should be okay to eat. That's what I'm doing and it's worked pretty well so far. In fact I use the actual book to check my lists. It's handy and also a great way to introduce other people to the BTD/GTD--they see the book in my shopping cart and either ask me about it or joke with me. The produce manager at my favorite grocery store teases me no end about being in a cult, but he's started asking more detailed questions now that he's seeing me start to lose weight and look healthier.

If you are in a multiple type household (as I am), you might consider taking the time to find common superfoods/toxins for all the types in your group and make that your 'priority' permanent shopping list. Type-specific superfoods/toxins can go on a second list. At first it seems like a lot of list-making, but as you become familiar with the new categories you'll need to rely less on the lists.


Everyone is entitled to his or her informed opinion. --H. Ellison
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shazamda
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 11:23pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 2330
We need to speak up about some of these things before the food industry goes completely nuts, if they haven't already.

I agree!  The recent stories in the news about allowing cloned meat and milk from cloned cows to be marketed is pretty scary to me.    But what really aggravates me is they don't want to label it.    We should be able to make our own choices about what goes in our stomachs.  

Hereís one you may not have heard about.  To make low fat ice cream more creamy they have cloned a protein from an arctic fish and inserted some of the DNA into bakerís yeast.  The yeast is used to manufacture protein that controls ice crystal formation in the ice cream.  They call it ďice-structuring proteinĒ, it is also known as ďantifreeze protein AFPĒ.  It is ALREADY in grocery stores.  Here is an excerpt from a New York Times story.  

ďÖ Unilever, the Anglo-Dutch conglomerate, applied to Britainís Food Standards Agency for permission to use a new ingredient in its frozen desserts ó a protein cloned from the blood of an eel-like Arctic Ocean fish, the ocean pout.  Instead of extracting the protein from the fish, which Unilever describes as ďnot sustainable or economically feasibleĒ in its application, the company developed a process for making it, by altering the genetic structure of a strain of bakerís yeast so that it produces the protein during fermentation.Ē  

Hereís the link http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07.....amp;pagewanted=print

Here is more information on Wikipedia  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifreeze_protein

Watch for it in Breyers Light Double Churned ice cream and other diet ice creams.

I suppose I could be optimistic and imagine it could stop the protein shock Dr. D. talks about in LR4YT that is caused by flash freezing foods.  But more realistically Iíd  rather not have to decipher the Frankensteinís monster that our food is becoming.  

I may be getting a bit off topic here.  


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Lola
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 11:44pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Unilever is pretty freaky!!


''Just follow the book, don't look for magic fixes to get you off the hook. Do the work.'' Dr.D.'98
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The harder you are on yourself, the easier life will be on you!
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Spring
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 2:28am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Carol the Dabbler



How do they give it the look and feel of yogurt?  Add thickeners?  How can one tell the difference between those products and cultured yogurt with added thickeners?



I don't know whether they can get away with adding thickeners without listing it or not, but it should be right there on the container. Some companies use pectin to give the plain old milk a "yogurt" consistency. For now, (and who knows how long that will be), if it is the real thing, the milk is listed as cultured milk and anything that comes after that which doesn't say "cultured" before it is not.  For instance, I am looking at a carton of Friendship cottage cheese. True, the first ingredient is "cultured pasteurized grade a skim milk, THEN it says, milk, salt and Vitamin A palmitate. Why they would add any regular, uncultured milk is beyond me. I don't mind dry cottage cheese, in fact, I like it. I can add my own liquid if I want - such as fruit juice or real yogurt. But I have found a Dannon yogurt that is the real thing, thank goodness. I can make yogurt and have done so by the tens of gallons in the past, but at my age I'm ready to take it a little easier, and I would rather buy it than go to the trouble. But I will make it if I must. I've never made cottage cheese, but it seems to be pretty easy, so I guess I will be taking that on if I don't soon find a real, 100% cultured product. As for this inulin\F.O.S., or whatever other name they want to call it, that they are putting into any and everything now, it is horrifying to read the gyrations they have been going through in Australia to justify putting this stuff in formulas for newborns! It is all about how it is going to impact the "industry" and practically nothing about what this stuff is going to do to the tummies of these babies!!!   But I'm not picking on Australia - this "industry" is taking on the whole world.
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shazamda
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 2:44am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ok, how about this... PT warm up your keyboard  ...
I have "Potato, white with skin" in my toxin list.  It is also on several other lists for other Genotypes, mostly toxin.  I don't see "Potato, white" or "Potato, white without skin" on any list, so "Potato, white without skin" must be neutral for all types.  Yes?      
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C_Sharp
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 2:55am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 2330
A recent additive that some seem to think the world cannot do without (see those $$$$ signs?) is inulin\F.O.S. They are putting the stuff into untold products and I WOULD REALLY AND TRULY LIKE TO HEAR WHAT DR. D'S OPINION IS OF THIS PRACTICE. If he thinks it is okay - fine and dandy. Otherwise, I am really afraid to eat this stuff.  


FOS is in Deflect for type A



MIfHI                            I follow a SWAMI diet.
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Jenny
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 4:33am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from shazamda
Ok, how about this... PT warm up your keyboard  ...
I have "Potato, white with skin" in my toxin list.  It is also on several other lists for other Genotypes, mostly toxin.  I don't see "Potato, white" or "Potato, white without skin" on any list, so "Potato, white without skin" must be neutral for all types.  Yes?      

Sorry Shaz,I think we have to have a pinch of commonsense as well as linguistic logic in our approach to all this. If white potatoes were regarded as arthritis producing deadly nightshades for a decade or more for As on the BTD how could they possibly squeeze into acceptability now?
There is the chance that wishful thinking can change old truths, but I doubt that this is one of them.
Jenny




Eating half and exercising double.
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Mercedes
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 4:50am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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actually, there's a whole other thread somewhere about potatoes...
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Lloyd
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 4:50am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Kristin


But one of the problems that I have had with the no neutrals listed is that I assumed that a food was neutral when it wasn't... I looked in the wrong category. For instance, since chocolate is a black dot food for Nomads, I noticed that carob was not listed along with chocolate in the spices section... so I assumed that it was a neutral. Little did I know that carob is also a black dot food... but listed in the vegetable proteins section. I would never have thought to look for carob in that section and just happened to notice it but unfortunately after I had already went perusing for compliant carob in the health food store.

Until I become more familiar with the GTD, a neutral list would be very helpful to me.



Perhaps you could make an alphebetized list of all your rated foods for shopping purposes, since the recommended portions are easy to remember. That would simplify the search and reduce the possibility of missing an avoid.

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shazamda
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 5:52am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Jenny

Sorry Shaz,I think we have to have a pinch of commonsense as well as linguistic logic in our approach to all this. ... for a decade or more

See, that's why we keep you guys around, 'cause you've been doing this for a looooong time!    teasing  

I haven't eaten potatoes for years; the point is that some newbies will be confused by the designation "Potato, white with skin".  Since linguistics is mostly all new folks have to understand the plan then it would be understandable there could be some confusion.  

Those of use who are fairly new to this are trying to understand both the "forest" and the "trees"; the general feel of the program and the specifics of the terminology.  I know there is no perfect way to convey the "aha!" of BTD and GTD.  Maybe it can be had through experience and pure determination, the newbie may not know that yet.

In the mean time we initiates are trying to understand whyÖ if there is a "with skin" designation why wouldn't there be a "without skin" too.  The decade of experience you have puts you in a place of understanding that this grasshopper does not have.  So while this may seem clear as daylight to you, those of us who ďhavenít seen the lightĒ will tend to struggle with semantics until we ďaha!Ē

At this point I am not suggesting a change be made to the ďPotatoĒ entry or the lists... but maybe, from the new guyís perspective a neutral list or a list of untested foods may seem very sensible.      Please forgive me PT   

We new folks need to be told what should be obvious, and you tell us, thank you.  There is no perfect way to convey the GTD complexity/simplicity but it may be helpful to let the initiate know there is some finesse required that will surely be attained with patience, experience and a big dose of trust.  

The Master needs the koan, but only to teach.

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shazamda
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 5:55am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Jenny

Sorry Shaz


Oooh, I like my new nickname.  
Thanks    
...
...
No, not the "Sorry" part, the "Shaz" part!    


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Spring
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 6:14am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from C_Sharp


FOS is in Deflect for type A



This still doesn't really answer the question of whether an overload of this product from many different sources could trigger dire conditions in the gut. There are only 10 mgs. of this in one Deflect capsule which I have been taking for years with no apparent problems. I spent ten years on a strict diet trying to get yeast overgrowth under control, and that is just one of the comparatively innocent characters with a permanent residence in our bodies. They are trying to claim that only the good guys will feed on these substances and the baddies won't, but evolution (or whatever term would apply here) is still going strong, last I heard, and who is to say that the bad guys won't soon be right in there living it up on F.O.S\inulin and the like. I don't know what the outcome could be, but I would love to hear from someone I trust about it instead of humongous companies trying to sell their wares without a whole lot of thought about the long term damage they could be causing.  
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koahiatamadl
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 6:25am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Kristin


But one of the problems that I have had with the no neutrals listed is that I assumed that a food was neutral when it wasn't... I looked in the wrong category. For instance, since chocolate is a black dot food for Nomads, I noticed that carob was not listed along with chocolate in the spices section... so I assumed that it was a neutral. Little did I know that carob is also a black dot food... but listed in the vegetable proteins section.


How about compiling a list of superfoods and toxins and taking that with you?  Seems to achieve the same result but with less hassle

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northstar
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 7:53am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Hi All,

My doctor as admantly told me that if I am to eat meat I am to find the kind that is so-called "natural" or "free range". In otherwards the animals are not fed feed with all kinds of chemicals in them including antibiotics and hormones. My body can no longer handle the additives. (If my lower legs were not longer than my upper ones, I'd swear I'd be an Explorer!) I think all we can do is try to buy organically grown produce whenever possible. As to yogurt, to be 100% sure of no additives, make it yourself.

I suscribe to a service here in Tokyo that delivers fresh vegetables, etc once a week. The day the vegies are picked is the day they are delivered to your home. There is a list showing where the food was grown, name of the farmer and if a processed item, how it was
processed and if any wheat, dairy has been added. Quite interesting if you have the time to read it all. I have come to trust this company. I limit what I buy in regular supermarkets because I do not have that kind of information.
Some supermarkets here in Japan list the food as locally grown when actually it is from China. In China, pesticides that are banned are still being used.

Now, in regard to a Neutral List, if any Warriors are making one or plan to start one let me know. I think it still can be handy, especially since I am so busy and really do not have time to figure it
all out when planning a meal.


Out & About in Tokyo...
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Andrea AWsec
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 12:46pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Time to make your own yogurt and even cottage cheese/farmers cheese can be made at home.
  It really does not take that long to do.



MIFHI

"Do not try to satisfy your vanity by teaching a great many things. Awaken people's curiosity. It is enough to open minds; do not overload them." Anatole France

"Healthy people have the least overt symptoms from eating avoid foods." Dr. D'Adamo
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Ribbit
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 1:45pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I want to learn how, but I also want to use raw milk, for which I do have a semi-local source.  But my husband, who knows lots about bacteria, says, "Don't use raw milk.  It's got a whole lot of bacteria in it that will mess up your cheese and yogurt.  Use organic powdered milk for the yogurt."  But.....I want to use raw.  I guess it shouldn't be all that difficult to find directions online somewhere.

Going back to unlisted ingredients, how does one "complain" to the FDA (or whoever) about the ingredients?  Can we, the consumers, be loud enough to let them know we won't buy it?  Or are there so many people who don't notice or don't care that it won't make any difference if we pitch fits?


ISTJ, BTD since 5/05.  Battling chronic Lyme disease since ~1985.

"Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial..."  I Corinthians 6:12

Family: 3 As, 1 B, 1 AB, 1 O
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Peppermint Twist
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 4:32pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Carol the Dabbler



You're absolutely right, Edna, we seem to have no way to tell the difference between foods that have not been tested and foods that are Neutral for all GenoTypes.  The best we can do right now is to figure out some foods that have been tested (by seeing them listed for other GenoTypes) but are neither Superfoods nor Toxins for our GenoType -- so they must be Neutral for us.  In other words, we can know for pretty-sure that some foods really are "official" Neutrals.

If this whole exercise doesn't float your boat, please feel free to ignore us!  

Fair enough!   In fact, I've wanted to say that (i.e., your last sentence) to people who've had issues with my threads many times!    

And if it was merely that the thread didn't float my boat, I would have stayed out.  But the thing is, I wanted/needed to make the point that by creating lists of neutrals, it (that exercise) in and of itself is not going to tell you which are evaluated neutrals and which are unevaluated foods, that's all.  So, since I've made my point, I'll shut up about it.     Plus, some folks have posted other good reasons why they prefer to create a neutrals list for themselves, so, go for it.



"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Peppermint Twist
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 4:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Lola
Unilever is pretty freaky!!

They ruined the love of my life, Breyer's Mint Chip!  And Ben & Jerry's!  They have rendered the entire mainstream ice cream line up available in mainstream markets of the US of A inedible!

They're evil.



"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Carol the Dabbler
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 6:16pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from shazamda
To make low fat ice cream more creamy they have cloned a protein from an arctic fish and inserted some of the DNA into bakerís yeast.  ....  They call it ďice-structuring proteinĒ, it is also known as ďantifreeze protein AFPĒ.  It is ALREADY in grocery stores.  Here is an excerpt from a New York Times story.  

ďÖ Unilever, the Anglo-Dutch conglomerate, applied to Britainís Food Standards Agency for permission to use a new ingredient in its frozen desserts ó a protein cloned from the blood of an eel-like Arctic Ocean fish, the ocean pout.  Instead of extracting the protein from the fish, which Unilever describes as ďnot sustainable or economically feasibleĒ in its application, the company developed a process for making it, by altering the genetic structure of a strain of bakerís yeast so that it produces the protein during fermentation.Ē


So THAT's what Ocean pout is!  (It's actually a Superfood for me, but I think that's just the original fish.)

The procedure they describe is not "cloning," by the way.  I'm not so worried about cloning -- you clone a cow, you get another cow.

No, what they're describing is genetic engineering.  That's the only way you can "alter the genetic structure" of yeast so that it produces a protein from a fish.  I would not knowingly eat any genetically engineered "foods," because this crossing of different species -- they've also produced a tomato with fish genes in it -- could never occur in nature, and therefore HAS never occurred before in the entire history of the world -- so how can "they" say it's safe?  And even if "they" manage to prove that one particular genetically-engineered item is safe, that says absolutely nothing about any other GE items.  Each one is unique in the history of the world.

At this time, the only way to be (pretty) sure that you're avoiding GE items here in the US is to buy only organically-grown products, and/or those marked GMO-free (which stands for "genetically modified organism").  Anything else either might already be GE, or could be just as soon as they figure out how to GE that particular item.



Carol

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Spring
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 8:00pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Ribbit, my guess is that raw powdered milk would give you what you want without the worry of fresh milk. Even plain old, regular powdered milk has stood a lot of people in good stead through generations if they could tolerate it. You would have to kill all the bad stuff in your fresh milk anyway to make yogurt so why not try the powdered without all the hassle? You're going to have a great cultured product, powdered or not. Canned milk works too and you don't have to kill anything in it. Just add culture and go. Yummy!
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shazamda
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 9:32pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Carol the Dabbler

The procedure they describe is not "cloning," by the way.  I'm not so worried about cloning -- you clone a cow, you get another cow.

No, what they're describing is genetic engineering.  
Ok, thanks for the clarification.  

I was confused by this quote in a New York Times article, "New industrial processes, including one that involves a protein cloned from the blood of an Arctic Ocean fish, have allowed manufacturers to produce very creamy, dense, reduced-fat ice creams with fewer additives."  They goofed.      
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07.....amp;pagewanted=print



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Carol the Dabbler
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 10:04pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Well, maybe it would be technically accurate to say that the protein itself was cloned -- proteins are not organisms, so I have no idea what the terminology would be.  If you take a cutting of a geranium plant and root it to make another geranium plant, that's cloning.

I suspect that "they" have finally noticed that the General Public does NOT like genetic engineering, but isn't terribly negative about cloning -- so "cloning" has become the new euphemism for genetic engineering.

Sheesh.


Carol

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shazamda
Thursday, January 24, 2008, 3:33am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Carol the Dabbler

Well, maybe it would be technically accurate to say that the protein itself was cloned
I think you were right the first time; an organism can be cloned, but not a protein.  Maybe a cell can be cloned but the article said a protein is cloned.  I think the New York Times used the word "cloned" incorrectly.  

I also agree, the food adulterating industry will use whatever tactic it takes to mask its actions and its real intent. Sorry to be so cynical but that's the way it seems; corporate greed, corporate insanity.  



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Peppermint Twist
Thursday, January 24, 2008, 3:20pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Carol the Dabbler
I suspect that "they" have finally noticed that the General Public does NOT like genetic engineering, but isn't terribly negative about cloning

  WHAT?!  You're kidding...right?  I certainly think and hope that the public IS terribly negative about cloning!!!!!!!!!!!!     

Why do you think they don't want to label cloned meat as such?  Because NO ONE WOULD BUY IT.

Anyone who would knowingly buy and consume meat labeled "cloned" deserves whatever happens to them when they eat it, imho.


"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Carol the Dabbler
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You have all been eating cloned foods all your life.  Any named variety of apple (Delicious, Fuji, Braeburn, etc.) comes from a clone (i.e., vegetatively propagated copy) of the "mother tree."  The same is true of many other fruits.

With animals, it's more difficult, of course.  You can't just root a cutting.  And animal clones aren't necessarily exact copies of their "mother."  What they do is to take an ovum (which may need to be fertilized, I'm not sure) from a female of the desired species, remove the nucleus (which contains most of the genetic material) from it, and replace it with the nucleus of a cell (I believe it can be just about any non-egg/sperm cell) from the animal that is to be cloned.  They put the patched-together ovum into the uterus of a female, where it develops in the usual way.  Note that this procedure involves anywhere from one to three individual animals.

The resulting animal is an exact (or nearly exact) copy of the animal that donated the nucleus.  (The "nearly" part applies whenever the ovum does *not* come from the nucleus donor -- in those cases, the new animal's nuclear chromosomes will be a duplicate of the nucleus donor's, but I assume that its mitochondrial DNA will be a copy of the egg donor's.)

This is basically a brute-force way of making identical twins, except that the "twins" can be of varying ages, depending on when they were cloned.

Again, I do not see anything terribly scary about this.  I would prefer milk or eggs from an animal that came about in the old-fashioned way, but I have no specific reason for feeling this way, and would not run screaming the other way if offered a cloned cheese omelet.

Genetic engineering is different.  Many orders of magnitude different.  (Need I add that I mean different as in WORSE?)  In that case, I wouldn't bother to run away, I'd just look at the person offering me the Frankenfood as though they'd asked if I'd like to eat a tractor tire.


Carol

A+ nonnie married to an A+ secretor
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BTD Forums    Diet and Nutrition    The GenoType Diet  ›  Where's the neutral list?

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