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BTD Forums    Diet and Nutrition    The GenoType Diet  ›  Where's the neutral list?
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Where's the neutral list?  This thread currently has 2,339 views. Print Print Thread
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shazamda
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 2:44am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Ok, how about this... PT warm up your keyboard  ...
I have "Potato, white with skin" in my toxin list.  It is also on several other lists for other Genotypes, mostly toxin.  I don't see "Potato, white" or "Potato, white without skin" on any list, so "Potato, white without skin" must be neutral for all types.  Yes?      
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C_Sharp
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 2:55am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 2330
A recent additive that some seem to think the world cannot do without (see those $$$$ signs?) is inulin\F.O.S. They are putting the stuff into untold products and I WOULD REALLY AND TRULY LIKE TO HEAR WHAT DR. D'S OPINION IS OF THIS PRACTICE. If he thinks it is okay - fine and dandy. Otherwise, I am really afraid to eat this stuff.  


FOS is in Deflect for type A



MIfHI                            I follow a SWAMI diet.
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Jenny
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 4:33am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from shazamda
Ok, how about this... PT warm up your keyboard  ...
I have "Potato, white with skin" in my toxin list.  It is also on several other lists for other Genotypes, mostly toxin.  I don't see "Potato, white" or "Potato, white without skin" on any list, so "Potato, white without skin" must be neutral for all types.  Yes?      

Sorry Shaz,I think we have to have a pinch of commonsense as well as linguistic logic in our approach to all this. If white potatoes were regarded as arthritis producing deadly nightshades for a decade or more for As on the BTD how could they possibly squeeze into acceptability now?
There is the chance that wishful thinking can change old truths, but I doubt that this is one of them.
Jenny




Eating half and exercising double.
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Mercedes
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 4:50am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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actually, there's a whole other thread somewhere about potatoes...
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Lloyd
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 4:50am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Kristin


But one of the problems that I have had with the no neutrals listed is that I assumed that a food was neutral when it wasn't... I looked in the wrong category. For instance, since chocolate is a black dot food for Nomads, I noticed that carob was not listed along with chocolate in the spices section... so I assumed that it was a neutral. Little did I know that carob is also a black dot food... but listed in the vegetable proteins section. I would never have thought to look for carob in that section and just happened to notice it but unfortunately after I had already went perusing for compliant carob in the health food store.

Until I become more familiar with the GTD, a neutral list would be very helpful to me.



Perhaps you could make an alphebetized list of all your rated foods for shopping purposes, since the recommended portions are easy to remember. That would simplify the search and reduce the possibility of missing an avoid.

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shazamda
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 5:52am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Jenny

Sorry Shaz,I think we have to have a pinch of commonsense as well as linguistic logic in our approach to all this. ... for a decade or more

See, that's why we keep you guys around, 'cause you've been doing this for a looooong time!    teasing  

I haven't eaten potatoes for years; the point is that some newbies will be confused by the designation "Potato, white with skin".  Since linguistics is mostly all new folks have to understand the plan then it would be understandable there could be some confusion.  

Those of use who are fairly new to this are trying to understand both the "forest" and the "trees"; the general feel of the program and the specifics of the terminology.  I know there is no perfect way to convey the "aha!" of BTD and GTD.  Maybe it can be had through experience and pure determination, the newbie may not know that yet.

In the mean time we initiates are trying to understand why if there is a "with skin" designation why wouldn't there be a "without skin" too.  The decade of experience you have puts you in a place of understanding that this grasshopper does not have.  So while this may seem clear as daylight to you, those of us who havent seen the light will tend to struggle with semantics until we aha!

At this point I am not suggesting a change be made to the Potato entry or the lists... but maybe, from the new guys perspective a neutral list or a list of untested foods may seem very sensible.      Please forgive me PT   

We new folks need to be told what should be obvious, and you tell us, thank you.  There is no perfect way to convey the GTD complexity/simplicity but it may be helpful to let the initiate know there is some finesse required that will surely be attained with patience, experience and a big dose of trust.  

The Master needs the koan, but only to teach.

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shazamda
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 5:55am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Jenny

Sorry Shaz


Oooh, I like my new nickname.  
Thanks    
...
...
No, not the "Sorry" part, the "Shaz" part!    


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Spring
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 6:14am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from C_Sharp


FOS is in Deflect for type A



This still doesn't really answer the question of whether an overload of this product from many different sources could trigger dire conditions in the gut. There are only 10 mgs. of this in one Deflect capsule which I have been taking for years with no apparent problems. I spent ten years on a strict diet trying to get yeast overgrowth under control, and that is just one of the comparatively innocent characters with a permanent residence in our bodies. They are trying to claim that only the good guys will feed on these substances and the baddies won't, but evolution (or whatever term would apply here) is still going strong, last I heard, and who is to say that the bad guys won't soon be right in there living it up on F.O.S\inulin and the like. I don't know what the outcome could be, but I would love to hear from someone I trust about it instead of humongous companies trying to sell their wares without a whole lot of thought about the long term damage they could be causing.  
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koahiatamadl
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 6:25am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Kristin


But one of the problems that I have had with the no neutrals listed is that I assumed that a food was neutral when it wasn't... I looked in the wrong category. For instance, since chocolate is a black dot food for Nomads, I noticed that carob was not listed along with chocolate in the spices section... so I assumed that it was a neutral. Little did I know that carob is also a black dot food... but listed in the vegetable proteins section.


How about compiling a list of superfoods and toxins and taking that with you?  Seems to achieve the same result but with less hassle

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northstar
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 7:53am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Hi All,

My doctor as admantly told me that if I am to eat meat I am to find the kind that is so-called "natural" or "free range". In otherwards the animals are not fed feed with all kinds of chemicals in them including antibiotics and hormones. My body can no longer handle the additives. (If my lower legs were not longer than my upper ones, I'd swear I'd be an Explorer!) I think all we can do is try to buy organically grown produce whenever possible. As to yogurt, to be 100% sure of no additives, make it yourself.

I suscribe to a service here in Tokyo that delivers fresh vegetables, etc once a week. The day the vegies are picked is the day they are delivered to your home. There is a list showing where the food was grown, name of the farmer and if a processed item, how it was
processed and if any wheat, dairy has been added. Quite interesting if you have the time to read it all. I have come to trust this company. I limit what I buy in regular supermarkets because I do not have that kind of information.
Some supermarkets here in Japan list the food as locally grown when actually it is from China. In China, pesticides that are banned are still being used.

Now, in regard to a Neutral List, if any Warriors are making one or plan to start one let me know. I think it still can be handy, especially since I am so busy and really do not have time to figure it
all out when planning a meal.


Out & About in Tokyo...
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Andrea AWsec
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 12:46pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Time to make your own yogurt and even cottage cheese/farmers cheese can be made at home.
  It really does not take that long to do.



MIFHI

"Do not try to satisfy your vanity by teaching a great many things. Awaken people's curiosity. It is enough to open minds; do not overload them." Anatole France

"Healthy people have the least overt symptoms from eating avoid foods." Dr. D'Adamo
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Ribbit
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 1:45pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I want to learn how, but I also want to use raw milk, for which I do have a semi-local source.  But my husband, who knows lots about bacteria, says, "Don't use raw milk.  It's got a whole lot of bacteria in it that will mess up your cheese and yogurt.  Use organic powdered milk for the yogurt."  But.....I want to use raw.  I guess it shouldn't be all that difficult to find directions online somewhere.

Going back to unlisted ingredients, how does one "complain" to the FDA (or whoever) about the ingredients?  Can we, the consumers, be loud enough to let them know we won't buy it?  Or are there so many people who don't notice or don't care that it won't make any difference if we pitch fits?


ISTJ, BTD since 5/05.  Battling chronic Lyme disease since ~1985.

"Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial..."  I Corinthians 6:12

Family: 3 As, 1 B, 1 AB, 1 O
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Peppermint Twist
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 4:32pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Carol the Dabbler



You're absolutely right, Edna, we seem to have no way to tell the difference between foods that have not been tested and foods that are Neutral for all GenoTypes.  The best we can do right now is to figure out some foods that have been tested (by seeing them listed for other GenoTypes) but are neither Superfoods nor Toxins for our GenoType -- so they must be Neutral for us.  In other words, we can know for pretty-sure that some foods really are "official" Neutrals.

If this whole exercise doesn't float your boat, please feel free to ignore us!  

Fair enough!   In fact, I've wanted to say that (i.e., your last sentence) to people who've had issues with my threads many times!    

And if it was merely that the thread didn't float my boat, I would have stayed out.  But the thing is, I wanted/needed to make the point that by creating lists of neutrals, it (that exercise) in and of itself is not going to tell you which are evaluated neutrals and which are unevaluated foods, that's all.  So, since I've made my point, I'll shut up about it.     Plus, some folks have posted other good reasons why they prefer to create a neutrals list for themselves, so, go for it.



"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Peppermint Twist  -  Thursday, January 24, 2008, 3:27pm
Peppermint Twist  -  Thursday, January 24, 2008, 3:26pm
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Peppermint Twist
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 4:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Lola
Unilever is pretty freaky!!

They ruined the love of my life, Breyer's Mint Chip!  And Ben & Jerry's!  They have rendered the entire mainstream ice cream line up available in mainstream markets of the US of A inedible!

They're evil.



"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Carol the Dabbler
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 6:16pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from shazamda
To make low fat ice cream more creamy they have cloned a protein from an arctic fish and inserted some of the DNA into bakers yeast.  ....  They call it ice-structuring protein, it is also known as antifreeze protein AFP.  It is ALREADY in grocery stores.  Here is an excerpt from a New York Times story.  

Unilever, the Anglo-Dutch conglomerate, applied to Britains Food Standards Agency for permission to use a new ingredient in its frozen desserts a protein cloned from the blood of an eel-like Arctic Ocean fish, the ocean pout.  Instead of extracting the protein from the fish, which Unilever describes as not sustainable or economically feasible in its application, the company developed a process for making it, by altering the genetic structure of a strain of bakers yeast so that it produces the protein during fermentation.


So THAT's what Ocean pout is!  (It's actually a Superfood for me, but I think that's just the original fish.)

The procedure they describe is not "cloning," by the way.  I'm not so worried about cloning -- you clone a cow, you get another cow.

No, what they're describing is genetic engineering.  That's the only way you can "alter the genetic structure" of yeast so that it produces a protein from a fish.  I would not knowingly eat any genetically engineered "foods," because this crossing of different species -- they've also produced a tomato with fish genes in it -- could never occur in nature, and therefore HAS never occurred before in the entire history of the world -- so how can "they" say it's safe?  And even if "they" manage to prove that one particular genetically-engineered item is safe, that says absolutely nothing about any other GE items.  Each one is unique in the history of the world.

At this time, the only way to be (pretty) sure that you're avoiding GE items here in the US is to buy only organically-grown products, and/or those marked GMO-free (which stands for "genetically modified organism").  Anything else either might already be GE, or could be just as soon as they figure out how to GE that particular item.



Carol

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Spring
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 8:00pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Ribbit, my guess is that raw powdered milk would give you what you want without the worry of fresh milk. Even plain old, regular powdered milk has stood a lot of people in good stead through generations if they could tolerate it. You would have to kill all the bad stuff in your fresh milk anyway to make yogurt so why not try the powdered without all the hassle? You're going to have a great cultured product, powdered or not. Canned milk works too and you don't have to kill anything in it. Just add culture and go. Yummy!
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shazamda
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 9:32pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Carol the Dabbler

The procedure they describe is not "cloning," by the way.  I'm not so worried about cloning -- you clone a cow, you get another cow.

No, what they're describing is genetic engineering.  
Ok, thanks for the clarification.  

I was confused by this quote in a New York Times article, "New industrial processes, including one that involves a protein cloned from the blood of an Arctic Ocean fish, have allowed manufacturers to produce very creamy, dense, reduced-fat ice creams with fewer additives."  They goofed.      
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07.....amp;pagewanted=print



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Carol the Dabbler
Wednesday, January 23, 2008, 10:04pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Well, maybe it would be technically accurate to say that the protein itself was cloned -- proteins are not organisms, so I have no idea what the terminology would be.  If you take a cutting of a geranium plant and root it to make another geranium plant, that's cloning.

I suspect that "they" have finally noticed that the General Public does NOT like genetic engineering, but isn't terribly negative about cloning -- so "cloning" has become the new euphemism for genetic engineering.

Sheesh.


Carol

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shazamda
Thursday, January 24, 2008, 3:33am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Carol the Dabbler

Well, maybe it would be technically accurate to say that the protein itself was cloned
I think you were right the first time; an organism can be cloned, but not a protein.  Maybe a cell can be cloned but the article said a protein is cloned.  I think the New York Times used the word "cloned" incorrectly.  

I also agree, the food adulterating industry will use whatever tactic it takes to mask its actions and its real intent. Sorry to be so cynical but that's the way it seems; corporate greed, corporate insanity.  



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Peppermint Twist
Thursday, January 24, 2008, 3:20pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Carol the Dabbler
I suspect that "they" have finally noticed that the General Public does NOT like genetic engineering, but isn't terribly negative about cloning

  WHAT?!  You're kidding...right?  I certainly think and hope that the public IS terribly negative about cloning!!!!!!!!!!!!     

Why do you think they don't want to label cloned meat as such?  Because NO ONE WOULD BUY IT.

Anyone who would knowingly buy and consume meat labeled "cloned" deserves whatever happens to them when they eat it, imho.


"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Carol the Dabbler
Thursday, January 24, 2008, 7:54pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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You have all been eating cloned foods all your life.  Any named variety of apple (Delicious, Fuji, Braeburn, etc.) comes from a clone (i.e., vegetatively propagated copy) of the "mother tree."  The same is true of many other fruits.

With animals, it's more difficult, of course.  You can't just root a cutting.  And animal clones aren't necessarily exact copies of their "mother."  What they do is to take an ovum (which may need to be fertilized, I'm not sure) from a female of the desired species, remove the nucleus (which contains most of the genetic material) from it, and replace it with the nucleus of a cell (I believe it can be just about any non-egg/sperm cell) from the animal that is to be cloned.  They put the patched-together ovum into the uterus of a female, where it develops in the usual way.  Note that this procedure involves anywhere from one to three individual animals.

The resulting animal is an exact (or nearly exact) copy of the animal that donated the nucleus.  (The "nearly" part applies whenever the ovum does *not* come from the nucleus donor -- in those cases, the new animal's nuclear chromosomes will be a duplicate of the nucleus donor's, but I assume that its mitochondrial DNA will be a copy of the egg donor's.)

This is basically a brute-force way of making identical twins, except that the "twins" can be of varying ages, depending on when they were cloned.

Again, I do not see anything terribly scary about this.  I would prefer milk or eggs from an animal that came about in the old-fashioned way, but I have no specific reason for feeling this way, and would not run screaming the other way if offered a cloned cheese omelet.

Genetic engineering is different.  Many orders of magnitude different.  (Need I add that I mean different as in WORSE?)  In that case, I wouldn't bother to run away, I'd just look at the person offering me the Frankenfood as though they'd asked if I'd like to eat a tractor tire.


Carol

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