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BTD Forums    Diet and Nutrition    The GenoType Diet  ›  Gatherer vegetable situation: dire, or not so bad?
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Gatherer vegetable situation: dire, or not so bad?  This thread currently has 2,950 views. Print Print Thread
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Peppermint Twist
Monday, January 21, 2008, 2:34pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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There is only one aspect of the Gatherer diet that I, a long time BTDer, am not making the transition to with the ease of Ekaterina Gordeeva gliding across the ice.  That would be the veggie situation.  What up wit' it?  My veggie staples used to be, well, that would be staple, singular:  broccoli.  But now broccoli is a black-dot avoid.  Okay, my other staples were sweet potatoes and kale, which also are black dotters.  What is with these black dots?  I assume broccoli is a black dotter due to being a goitrogen, and sweet potatoes are there due to being a tad starchy and we need to be ever so low on the GI (although I think that is pushing it, as root veggies tend to keep me, for one, out of the CHIPS, but anyway...), but I don't know why kale is in there!  Kale should be a diamond superfood, I mean spinach is, why not kale?  No justice, no peace!

ANYWAY, I digress:  my point is, all my bestest buds are out.  So I'm now laden with bags of frozen asparagus and a bag of onions.  But how can I live without my broccoli?  It substituted nicely for refined carbs such as pasta or rice in so many situations as a side dish.  It had some substance to it, unlike spinach or turnip greens.

I'm going to have a LOT of asparagus, bamboo shoots (if I can find some good ones around here), onion and turnip greens, but what about LETTUCES?  I mean, my beloved iceberg (the Rodney Dangerfield of lettuces, yet so good and hydrating) is neutral, thank goodness, but so is romaine?  WEIRD.  So basically all your salad lettuces are merely neutral...unless one wants a big bowl of raw spinach salad, which does NOT do it for me.

I don't know...I find I'm not eating as many veggies as I was on the O non diet, between the fact that we are suddenly allowed more grains and suddenly my previously favored veggies are all black dots or neutrals.  Can't understand why romaine and iceberg aren't superfoods...at least romaine.  I mean, us Gatherers need the lovely soluable fiber, phytonutrients, intracellular hydration, etc.  What happened?  Where'd the salad veggies go?  You expect me to eat a spinach, egg and tomato salad?  Okay, fine, but leave out the spinach!

What say you all to this?  I'm having a bit of a veggie crisis.


"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Mrs T O+
Monday, January 21, 2008, 3:35pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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How about getting a blender(or Vitamix), blending them & getting them down before you taste very much!
Maybe you can blend certain veggies & make soup.
What a bummer! I hope some of the other good things about it make it better!!
Cheers,
Mrs "T"    O+


Interested in nutrition, lactation, religion, politics; love to be around people; talkative, sensitive, goofy; a "fishy Christian" ><>; left-handed; lived on a farm, small town & big city; love BTD/GTD; A staunch La Leche League veteran; b. 10/1947 Check BTD/GTD on facebook!
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Jane
Monday, January 21, 2008, 3:46pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Kyosha Nim
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PT,
How are you doing?
Try the baby spinach for salads.  It's not as bitter and I like it even more than romaine for salads.!
Jane
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Peppermint Twist
Monday, January 21, 2008, 3:52pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from Jane
PT,
How are you doing?
Try the baby spinach for salads.  It's not as bitter and I like it even more than romaine for salads.!
Jane

I don't know, girl, I'm just not a raw spinach person.  You would think I would be, for all my bravado about loving somewhat bitter flavors and dark green veggies, etc., but raw spinach is a little hard core, even for me.  And what about the oxalic acid issue?  I dunno.  Cooked spinach, yes, especially in our family's fave "spinach artichoke and cheese" casserole (calm down all you compliance sticklers out there, we only have this once or, at most twice, per year, on Thanksgiving and/or Christmas).  But raw spinach?  I'm not feeling it.  I'd sooner do Mrs. T.'s sugg and blend up a soup, or have my HFS juice me a "green" blend, as they will juice spinach and carrot, for example, which would be LOVELY.  ...Aaaand, of course, carrot is a black-dot avoid, too!

Dr. D.!  What are you doing to me?  I know, I know, it is all about glycemic load or something...but if I can't have things like sweet potato, broccoli and carrot, you know it is only a matter of time until I head for the CHIPS!

btw, I'm trying to figure out if purple, red, etc. potatoes are now neutral, as the list specifically says "potatoes, white" are toxins to avoid.  The plot thickens!

If I could have a purple potato, maybe I could forge ahead.


"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Olerica
Monday, January 21, 2008, 4:10pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I know I'm not a Gatherer, but I do like breakfast smoothies with berries and spinach (now an avoid/toxin for this Teacher) with grapefruit juice.  I don't know your list, but you could try that...

And Jane is right, packaged 'baby spinach' is very mild in flavor!  That with a warm lemon juice 'vinegrette' would be lovely...or pink grapefruit supremes and a 'vinegrette' made with grapefruit juice, olive oil and salt.  Mmmmmm!

Can you have celery?  Celery, tomato and spinach juice is SPECTACULAR.  (Sigh.... I'm a Teacher - all avoids/toxins for me!)


"To be nobody-but-yourself—in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else—means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." ee cummings
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jayneeo
Monday, January 21, 2008, 5:59pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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spinach tomato and celery juice sounds good....
personally, I am happy with the veggies cuz I know I need to get off the goitrogens. I love celery and can just cut up  several stalks and chomp away.
I loooovvve spinach, but ....yes, cooked. lightly. like in eggs for brkfst. (or dinner!!) I just put oil in the pan, drop handful (big) in , stir, when it droops, add eggs (you know, mixed for scramble) and if you can do cheese, throw it in...(ricotta?) (I have not been having good luck with the cheese yet) it makes a lovely dish.
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Peppermint Twist
Monday, January 21, 2008, 6:15pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Jane
Baby spinach really tastes different - it's not bitter at all.  Try it by mixing it with some romaine (baby romaine is great too!) Jane

I've had the baby spinach.  It isn't bitter, you are correct.  But it still has the oxalic acid issue, yes?

I just don't see what happened to kale.  Could it be a typo?  Oh, the humanity.

But I'm gonna stick to romaine and iceberg for salads, though they will now be neutral, whereas romaine was beneficial before.

I don't know.  The veggie selection is going to take some getting used to for me.  I miss broccoli, mainly, and sweet potatoes.

Thank goodness tomatoes are allowed and a superfood at that.  That helps *lol*.  Seriously, it does, because they are so versatile, great in sauces, soups, salads, sandwiches, etc.  LOVE 'em.




"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Heidi
Monday, January 21, 2008, 6:16pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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The gatherer veggies would make a fantastic omelette: mushrooms, celery, onion, bell pepper and spinich sauteed in a bit of ghee tucked into fluffy eggs with a little cottage cheese and topped off with diced tomato.  



Rh-, ISFP, Super Taster, Non-Secretor 52% SWAMI-XP'd Explorer.

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Peppermint Twist
Monday, January 21, 2008, 6:20pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from Jane
Olerica,
Great idea to try and make a vinegarette with grapefruit juice!

Yeah, that is a great idea!!!  Also, that tomato, celery and spinach juice does sound lovely.

I made a soda last night out of grapefruit juice and pineapple juice (and seltzer water!).  I wasn't expecting it to be anything to write home about, but omg:  turns out that grapefruit and pineapple together are fantastic!  Who knew?

I am really loving grapefruit juice being a superfood.  I drank it throughout coldzilla and it really helped the detox/healing process, me feels.  I also made a soda that was just grapefruit and seltzer the other day and that was VERY, very, very thirst-quenching.  I think that is one of the most refreshing homemade sodas I've made.

But my fave so far using grapefruit juice is to take elderberry concentrate, grapefruit juice and lemon juice (and seltzer...do I need to state that, even *lol*?).  WOW.  I'll bet if I had thought to add the pineapple to that, it would have been excellent.

I'm glad I had pineapple juice, unopened, left over from my BTD days, as I have done something awful to my left shoulder, so I figured I should drink some for the bromelain.  That led to my discovery of the grapefruit-pineapple soda being such a good marriage.

Love the idea for the grapefruit salad dressing.  Ummmmmmm!



"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Gumby
Monday, January 21, 2008, 7:37pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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PT, you can replace your kale with neutral for you collard greens and beet greens.  Somebody has to eat up all the ones that I can no longer enjoy!  They are both SO good!

Now when we buy beets, my gatherer gets the greens and I get the beets.  Used to be the other way around lol!


Embracing my A-ness!    (Ok, that is waaaay better in print than it is out loud!      )

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Mercedes
Monday, January 21, 2008, 7:39pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Yes twist, I'm none too pleased with the veggie list. However, where you don't like raw spinach, I have a worse problem of not liking any green vegetable cooked. Ok, I'll tolerate celery in a soup. But I've never liked anything green cooked. On top of that, I don't like peas, asparagus (you have the asparagus, I'll have the whipped cream in this world), green beans, bamboo shoots, or near about any other green veggies besides kale, cabbage, and lettuce- and none are bennie. I like my peppers and spinach, LOVE my tomatoes, but that's about it for my bennies. Mushrooms? I have an aversion to fungus grown in manure...

I miss carrots. I LOVED carrots. Shredded on a salad, pureed in a soup, steamed as a side for dinner. And sweet potato, sweet wonderful baked til crispy and eaten with basil mayonaise sweet potatoes... OH how I miss them.

Yeah, I'm not eating enough veggies on this plan, and I'm really not sure what to do about it.

(And I still miss banana... I was a bad girl and ate one yesterday... oh, it was divine...)
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Paula 0+
Monday, January 21, 2008, 7:44pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Tonight I am going to make another giada dish, stuffed red peppers and zucchini with turkey meat,
topped with tomato sauce.  I think that she may have used a few avoids in the meat mixture, but I will do what I can to adjust that part.  We seem to eat a lot of zucchini around here lately.  It's very low in carbs....I hate green pepper, but love red or yellow ones, they taste different to me, and don't repeat (make me burp).  I love cooked escarole, that's another old italian favorite.   Have you tried fennel bulb yet?  That's one that I had in a salad with grapefruit from Racheal Ray that was delish.
But  I see that romaine is neutral, so I wouldn't hesitate to use it or other salad greens.  Broccoli will
be missed, but I was eating it alot also.  I have heard that the carbs in it can sort of creep up on you.
How about tomatoes with basil leaves, olive oil, and maybe some ricotta or farmers cheese.  Or forget the cheese and use some thinly sliced onions.....I am making myself hungry here!
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Paula 0+
Monday, January 21, 2008, 7:47pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Tonight I am going to make another giada dish, stuffed red peppers and zucchini with turkey meat,
topped with tomato sauce.  I think that she may have used a few avoids in the meat mixture, but I will do what I can to adjust that part.  We seem to eat a lot of zucchini around here lately.  It's very low in carbs....I hate green pepper, but love red or yellow ones, they taste different to me, and don't repeat (make me burp).  I love cooked escarole, that's another old italian favorite.   Have you tried fennel bulb yet.  That's one that I had in a salad with grapefruit from Racheal Ray that was delish.
But  I see that romaine is neutral, so I wouldn't hesitate to use it or other salad greens.  Broccoli will
be missed, but I was eating it alot also.  I have heard that the carbs in it can sort of creep up on you.
How about tomatoes with basil leaves, olive oil, and maybe some ricotta or farmers cheese.  Or forget the cheese and use some thinly sliced onions.....I am making myself hungry here!  I see no one is mentioning dandelion greens.  They can be bitter, but I think I may revisit them, maybe make them into a quiche like meal, with cottage cheese, egg, onion, etc.....
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Peppermint Twist
Monday, January 21, 2008, 7:53pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Gumby
PT, you can replace your kale with neutral for you collard greens and beet greens.  Somebody has to eat up all the ones that I can no longer enjoy!  They are both SO good!

Well, for that matter, I can enjoy superfood-for-me turnip greens, which are wonderful.  It's just that I LOVE kale and don't get the rationale for the avoid status, but *shrug*.  I do trust Dr. D.

The thing I really will miss on a near-daily basis until I get the hang of things/get into the swing of things, gatherer-wise, is broccoli.  I didn't realize this, but broccoli had become my staple veggie!  I kept bags and bags of the frozen florets and would use them in everything I cooked.  But there are neutrals I can substitute and thus I should quit my whining.  For example, what is wrong with good old green beans?  I can certainly use those.  Or the superfood asparagus.

But shouldn't one eat a cruciferous veggie now and again?  We aren't allowed to have cauliflower or broccoli, what kind of world are we living in?  How is a gal supposed to lower her cancer risk, etc., around here?

I don't know...the veggie area is the only thing that is going to take some getting used to for me.  Well, that and the no chicken thing.  That one's brutal.  But we won't even go there...for now!





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Beth
Monday, January 21, 2008, 7:59pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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I am another gatherer who sees our veggie list as slim pickins.
i actually have steamed baby spinach with ghee butter twice a day.
Love asparagus but only the tops....upper and lower stems seem so stringy to me. Was thinking about organic V8 (vegetable juice) but our food list says no for tomato as a juice ...only the whole tomato.
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Peppermint Twist
Monday, January 21, 2008, 8:01pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Gatherer; iNfj; BTD/GTD aficionado; lost 97 lbs
Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from Beth
I am another gatherer who sees our veggie list as slim pickins.
i actually have steamed baby spinach with ghee butter twice a day.
Love asparagus but only the tops....upper and lower stems seem so stringy to me. Was thinking about organic V8 (vegetable juice) but our food list says no for tomato as a juice ...only the whole tomato.

WHAT?     No tomato juice?  I didn't even see that one.  Hold on, let me trust but verify...

...Good Lord, she is right, tomato juice is a flatline avoid, as in, no black dot, no nothing:  it is a toxin to avoid.  WHAT?

Okay, question to the assembled gathering of gatherers:

If whole tomatoes are beneficial (superfoods), yet tomato juice is an avoid (toxin to avoid), where does that leave my beloved tomato marinara sauce from the HFS?  And what of making pureed tomato soup?  I'm wondering if tomato juice is an avoid because of all the sodium in your typical brand at the store?  If not, this could be a nightmare.  But if so, I might take a view of it as I do of mayo:  storebought is an avoid, but homemade, containing the superfoods of egg, olive oil, lemon and sea salt has GOT to be beneficial (in small amounts befitting of added fat, of course), right?  Right!  Well, same with tomato juice...right?  Right!

If tomato is a superfood, then I'm thinking so is homemade and/or organic, low-sodium tomato juice and other items involving tomato puree, such as the marinara and soups, yes?

omg, too bad we aren't on the official site so we could ask that one.  That is a good question, if I do say so myself.


"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Cheryl_O_Blogger
Monday, January 21, 2008, 8:04pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Peppermint Twist
Okay, my other staples were sweet potatoes and kale, which also are black dotters.  What is with these black dots?  I assume broccoli is a black dotter due to being a goitrogen, and sweet potatoes are there due to being a tad starchy and we need to be ever so low on the GI (although I think that is pushing it, as root veggies tend to keep me, for one, out of the CHIPS, but anyway...), but I don't know why kale is in there!  Kale should be a diamond superfood, I mean spinach is, why not kale?  No justice, no peace!



Kale is very high in Vitamin K, that's the only thing that jumps out at me.  It's 817 units per 100g compared to 482 for spinach.  I'm missing lots of the veggies too.


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Peppermint Twist
Monday, January 21, 2008, 8:26pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Kyosha Nim
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Quoted from Cheryl_O_Blogger
Kale is very high in Vitamin K, that's the only thing that jumps out at me.  It's 817 units per 100g compared to 482 for spinach.  I'm missing lots of the veggies too.

But wouldn't that be a GOOD thing?  Eggs are high in K, too, and they are a superfood.

...I guess I'm just in a fiesty mood today, forgive me.  I love kale, but I can live without it.  Truth be told, it wasn't something I had often.  But broccoli, well, now we are getting down to something I ate all the time.  But at least I understand the rationale, namely the whole goitrogen thing (I'm just guessing that's the rationale).  And, we can have asparagus and green beans instead.

When you eat out, though, restaurants often have broccoli but less often have asparagus or even green beans.  They will often substitute broccoli for sides like pasta or potatoes, or even sub it for pasta in pasta dishes (For example, The Macaroni Grille will do this...they actually have asparagus, though, now that I think about that particular example!).

Anyway...I guess like anything this is just a matter of giving oneself the time and keeping one's mind open enough to get used to things.  Change.  Out with the old, in with the new.

It was just easier with the BTD, when it was out with things like wheat, instead of out with things like broccoli.  I mean, this is taking things to another whole level, ya know?  Which is a good thing, I guess.

Hey, if this plan takes the weight off, I will be one satisfied, broccoli-free pup!



"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Peppermint Twist  -  Monday, January 21, 2008, 8:35pm
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Peppermint Twist
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Quoted from Jenny
Hi Edna,
you know you've been on the BTD for so long that your detox issues must be less than the average person coming off the street from a totally inappropriate diet? so, if you wanted, my guess is that going back to some of your black dots at this early stage would not be calamitous.
cheers,
Jenny

You would think so but over the holidays I was a baaaahd little (or not so little) O.  That dang Temptation Island sucked me into its swirling vortex of corn syrup and wheat.  I am now firmly back on track, though.  Actually, ironically, I went through MUCH more of a "detox" going to GTD from BTD than I did going from utter cr*p to the BTD!  Everything about starting the BTD was wonderful, everything was positive.  But with this change--and this could TOTALLY be coincidence, timing-wise--I came down with coldzilla and went through what I consider to be a very deep detox via my respiratory system, which I believe was much, MUCH needed, actually.  My upper-respiratory system is now doing better than it has since before I got that double ear infection about two years ago or whenever it was.  Plus I feel like I just got rid of a lot of deep-down, cellular-level toxins.  I am STILL "expectorating" the remnants of coldzilla, but it is all good.  I'm telling you, this thing is a positive, big time.  This cold, that is.  I feel it was necessary, probably brought on by stress, all the avoids over the holiday season, and also changing to the new diet, although it really wasn't a huge diet change for me from the BTD...but it was just enough somehow to help the detox along.

Anyway, about the black dots, I'm trying to stay away for at least 3 months, but really I should give it until I get the weight off.  However, that will be a while, with 53 lbs to go, so I'm not going to sweat the small stuff.  For example, I had chicken today for the first time since beginning the GTD.  No big.  But at the same time, I'm not buying chicken anymore, grocery-wise, which is a big, big change, as that is one neutral that had really become a staple for me, rightly or, I'm guessing, wrongly.



"If you are on one of Dr. D's diets and it isn't joyful, you aren't doing it right." - moi

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Cheryl_O_Blogger
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Maybe vitamin K is good for a balanced gatherer, but since one of the properties is to help with blood clotting, you go moderate on that until closer to a good weight and health issues managed.  And also, it's not just Os now, so other blood types might not need as much aggression with thickening up the blood.  I don't have any of the risk factors for heart disease or stroke other than being overweight, so I may not be so cautious about kale.  The thing is I rarely used it.  I would have it in a fresh vegetable juice blend that a local health food store makes, but that was pretty infrequent.  One interesting thing was that cooking increases the availability of vitamin K, so in this case the raw vegetable would be less of a source.  With BTD and GTD it's usually about balance. We definitely have good sources of all the vitamins and nutrients, they're just hand picked according to BTD or GTD.  It might not be the vitamin K, but I'm sure there was good reason or reasons for the black dot status.

I'm in an if it ain't broke don't fix it mood right now since BTD is going well.  Of course, I want to add all the new superfooods and ignore the new toxins.  That does seem to be Dr. Ds order of priority.  Start with adding the good stuff, but get rid of the bad stuff if you want the best results.


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Melissa_J
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Quoted from Beth
Love asparagus but only the tops....upper and lower stems seem so stringy to me.


When cooking asparagus, be sure to break off the stem end, instead of cutting it off.  It will break in the best spot to leave all the stringiness behind.  Some break pretty high up, close to the tips, some break lower, but that way it all turns out good.



Type O+ blogger, secretor afterall. Gluten intolerant. With two gluten intolerant sons:  A+ Secretor 10 yo (also fructose intolerant and slightly egg allergic), and  O- 7yo.
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yvonneb
Monday, January 21, 2008, 11:14pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

I am hunting...
Autumn: Harvest, success.
Posts: 343
Gender: Female
Location: Ireland
Dear Gatherers, I may yet join you, but the jury's still out if I will be a Hunter or Gatherer. Until I know for sure I intended to combine the two foodlists and eat the bits both have in common. Unfortunatyely this is not possible, the lists are just too different. Yes, the Gatherers do not get many easily available vegetables. Easily available as in what one can get in Restaurants, friend's houses, family's houses and grocery stores. I live in Ireland and the Irish LIVE on potatos, carrots and broccoli! I suspect that a lot of the foods listed are available in American food stores, but not in Irish ones. If I turn out to be a Gatherer I have decided to wait with changing my diet until summer, when it is easier to live on salads.

I was also wondering: if one hasn't eaten a food (at all) because of following the BTD and this food now turns out to be a black dot, surely one can eat this particular food straight away? That would enlarge the food lists tremenduosly for a lot of BTD dieters out there!

I think I will start a new thread with this and see what the others out there think...
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Whimsical
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 1:01am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

HUNTER Naturopathic Doctor in Toronto
Kyosha Nim
Columnists and Bloggers
Posts: 1,213
Gender: Female
Location: Toronto, Canada
Age: 34
My old faves: kale, broccoli, carrots, sweet potato...

Kale and broccoli are both goitrogens and carrots and sweet potato are higher on the GI scale, so I get WHY they are black dots...  However, I too am struggling to eat enough veggies now...

I am buying both spinach and a salad mix in bulk and making salads with that and bell peppers.  I am also eating celery (which I love!) and green beans (which I like to think of as a veggie, even though I think they really fall under veggie proteins).  

However, these foods and most fruit are all "cold" foods according to Chinese dietary therapy, and therefore not a great choice in cold weather or for people with Yang deficiencies (like me!), so I need to tweak this a bit I think.  Once I have time to actually think it all through...


MIFHI E-185
Naturopathic Doctor in Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Mercedes
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 1:05am Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Expluntherer... It means I'm just an O
Autumn: Harvest, success.
Posts: 262
Gender: Female
yes Kate, this time of year, I prefer stew and soup to salads and smoothies, but haven't figured out how to do either without root veggies (Ok, I suppose peppers, tomato, celery and barley would work, but sooooooooo not the same...)
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Paula 0+
Tuesday, January 22, 2008, 3:10pm Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I know that beans are considered a "veg protein" on the gtd.  Last night I made a recipe from the gtd site for Butter Beans with Parsley.  Basically they are heated up (from can) in evoo, with some onion and then parsley at the end.  They were so good!  Sort of like giant cannelini beans.  This diet is resembling what I imagine italian/french farmers would eat.....I guess I may do more beans that I did on the btd.  Then I was only having blackbeans occasionally....in things like chili.  
But I must admit, I am adding more gtd foods, but still only eating around 75% compliant.  Still not wheat, etc.  I am gradually adding in more things that are bennies.  Janeeyo's soup above sounds wonderful!
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BTD Forums    Diet and Nutrition    The GenoType Diet  ›  Gatherer vegetable situation: dire, or not so bad?

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